Categorizing Negro League Inductees Properly

[Brad Harris]

Just wondering if we had some authoritative source on the primary position for Negro League outfielders? The Hall of Fame lists all of them as center fielders, which might be correct, but then again the Hall lists Elmer Flick as a center fielder and has a number of other errors like that in their player lists.

Cool Papa Bell
Willard Brown
Oscar Charleston
Pete Hill
Turkey Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente

(I wasn't including Monte Irvin, a left fielder, in this list.)

How many of those guys were true center fielders and how many of them played part of a career there and more games at one of the corners? (There's no games played by fielding position for them listed anywhere online that I could find.)

Also, I see Hilton Smith listed as a relief pitcher quite a bit. Is he the only reliever among Hall of Fame Negro Leaguers? In reading a bit about his career, it seems he was really a starting pitcher (and a darn good one) who filled in as a long reliever frequently for Satchel Paige's starts because of business, not game considerations. (Paige would pitch a couple innings at the outset of a game apparently quite frequently, depending on who was paying him how much.) If this is the primary reason Smith had so many relief appearances, shouldn't we really be considering him a starter? The man won 20+ games twelve years straight. Long relievers in the major leagues never win 20 games, much less year-in, year-out.

Just curious how we can best categorize our Negro League inductees and what y'all think about the subject.

[leecemark]

--I won't present myself as an expert on this subject, but this is my understanding. Bell and Torriente were career CFers. Charleston started out as a CFer and that was probably his primary career postition. He and Torriente became teamates in Charleston late 20s though and Oscar moved to LF (his arm was apparently his weakest attribute). Pete Hill I think played more LF than CF, although what the split is I am not sure. Same for Turkey Stearnes. Willard Brown was primarily a RFer who played some CF.

[Paul Wendt]

Hall of Merit special projects to rank members by position have been completed for C, 1B, 2B, SS and 3B is underway. Soon the outfielders will be classified officially, left-center-right, and there will be an exchange of what people know about their fielding records. Probably that will cover at least season-by-season almost completely --that is, labeling Charleston the regular LF and Torriente the regular CF for a particular team and year.

You'll find some, maybe complete but scattered coverage in the older threads individual players, not only HOM members but strong, mediocre, and from the Negro Leagues even some weak candidates.

>>
(I wasn't including Monte Irvin, a left fielder, in this list.)
<<

I suppose that represents his major league career.

>>
Also, I see Hilton Smith listed as a relief pitcher quite a bit. . . . shouldn't we really be considering him a starter?
<<

That seems reasonable although the relief pitcher classification does hint a warning about his W-L record, which the starting pitcher classification would not do. Probably they --the Negro Leagues or latterday compilers-- have used the official scoring rule. If Paige pitched innings 1-3 every game and Smith pitched innings 4-9 in every game, Paige would get no wins and not many losses (that is Satchel Paige on a good team). Smith would get all the wins and not many losses.

[Dogdaze]

Just wondering if we had some authoritative source on the primary position for Negro League outfielders? The Hall of Fame lists all of them as center fielders, which might be correct, but then again the Hall lists Elmer Flick as a center fielder and has a number of other errors like that in their player lists.

Cool Papa Bell
Willard Brown
Oscar Charleston
Pete Hill
Turkey Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente

(I wasn't including Monte Irvin, a left fielder, in this list.)

How many of those guys were true center fielders and how many of them played part of a career there and more games at one of the corners? (There's no games played by fielding position for them listed anywhere online that I could find.)

Also, I see Hilton Smith listed as a relief pitcher quite a bit. Is he the only reliever among Hall of Fame Negro Leaguers? In reading a bit about his career, it seems he was really a starting pitcher (and a darn good one) who filled in as a long reliever frequently for Satchel Paige's starts because of business, not game considerations. (Paige would pitch a couple innings at the outset of a game apparently quite frequently, depending on who was paying him how much.) If this is the primary reason Smith had so many relief appearances, shouldn't we really be considering him a starter? The man won 20+ games twelve years straight. Long relievers in the major leagues never win 20 games, much less year-in, year-out.

Just curious how we can best categorize our Negro League inductees and what y'all think about the subject.

I'm pretty sure the players you listed predominately played CF, though most if not all played different OF positions as needed.

Here's a couple of sources that list the positions they played at. They list their positions left to right, showing where they played most at I believe. Though I can't guarantee their accuracy. Bill Burgess wrote the Nel registry so he may be able to confirm the first link.

Check under "Descriptions of personal information:" to right of each player on the first link, this will show the poisitions they played. I believe they are showing the positions he played most at from left to right.

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess23.html

For the 2nd link below, it will show Positions. For example for Cool Papa Bell it lists "Positions: cf, lf, 1b". I believe they are showing the positions he played most at from left to right.

http://www.coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players.html

As for relievers I believe Hilton Smith was both a starter and reliever, Andy Cooper, elected to the HOF in 2006 also did a lot of relief pitching.

[Dogdaze]

Hall of Merit special projects to rank members by position have been completed for C, 1B, 2B, SS and 3B is underway. Soon the outfielders will be classified officially, left-center-right, and there will be an exchange of what people know about their fielding records. Probably that will cover at least season-by-season almost completely --that is, labeling Charleston the regular LF and Torriente the regular CF for a particular team and year.

This is great, I look forward to when it's complete.

[Paul Wendt]

I wouldn't classify Hilton Smith as a relief pitcher in whatever context the start/relief distinction seems important. For that his "relief" usage was too different from that of Hoyt Wilhelm, not to mention the next generation (as described in #1 above). You will need to give him special attention if/when you talk about or even list his GS and CG. Perhaps many other NeL pitchers will need special attention; at least Paige, for one.
Just wondering if we had some authoritative source on the primary position for Negro League outfielders? The Hall of Fame lists all of them as center fielders, which might be correct, but then again the Hall lists Elmer Flick as a center fielder and has a number of other errors like that in their player lists.

Cool Papa Bell
Willard Brown
Oscar Charleston
Pete Hill
Turkey Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente

(I wasn't including Monte Irvin, a left fielder, in this list.)

The Hall of Merit special project to rank CFs is now underway. Provisionally there are 27 candidates but Monte Irvin's classification is under discussion. The 27 include Irvin; all six listed above; Alejandro Oms, not in Cooperstown; and Larry Doby, less than 20% of his value in the Negro Leagues. Martin Dihigo is classed with the pitchers.

How many of those guys were true center fielders and how many of them played part of a career there and more games at one of the corners?
No one know that systematically, but someone may know it for the HOF members and the major Negro Leagues. (The Hall of Merit does not use a career playing time criterion and I don't support it myself. But other criteria may depend on classifying seasons by fielding position, eg peak or prime seasons.)

The Hall of Merit CF discussion thread includes another criterion, where would he have played in the majors?
(There's no games played by fielding position for them listed anywhere online that I could find.)
nor published anywhere. The Shadows book by Larry Hogan includes season and career records of the NeL HOFers compiled by the big data-gathering project, but batting and pitching only.

Here are the listings in the Encyclopedia.
fielding positions according to Riley
primary secondary (emergency)
cf lf (1b p) Bell
cf lf ss Brown
cf 1b Charleston
2b of p 1b 3b ss (c) Dihigo
2b (3b) Doby
cf lf rf 1b 2b Hill
cf ss 3b Irvin
cf lf rf (p) Oms
cf lf 1b Stearnes
cf lf rf p (3b 1b) Torriente
The primary fielding positions are supposed to be ordered by frequency, same for the secondary and for the emergency positions. So the meaning of the Irvin listing (Negro Leagues only) is no primary position, CF first among equals.