Alvin Dark

[Cowtipper]

In 14 seasons, Alvin Dark collected 2089 hits and batted .289 with 126 home runs and 757 RBI. A three time All-Star, he was a real stud in the postseason, finishing with a .323 average.

In 1954, he led the league in games played. In 1953 and 1954, he led the league in at-bats. He also led the league in doubles in 1951.

He won the Rookie of the Year Award in 1948, and in 1955 he won the Lou Gehrig Award. Because he finished in the top five in MVP voting twice, he should be in the Hall of Fame, according to one esteemed poster that has roamed the Hall of Fame forums recently.

Travis Jackson is the only Hall of Famer statistically similar to Dark (10th most similar no less - there's a ringing endorsement for you) and he is ranked the 32nd best shortstop, according to The Baseball Page.

Dark received votes for the Hall of Fame every year from 1966 until 1980. The most he ever received was 18.5% of the vote.

So, what do you think - should Alvin Dark be in the Hall of Fame?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

In 14 seasons, Alvin Dark collected 2089 hits and batted .289 with 126 home runs and 757 stolen bases. A three time All-Star, he was a real stud in the postseason, finishing with a .323 average.
I think you mean RBI. Dark stole 59 bases in his career.

[Cowtipper]

I think you mean RBI. Dark stole 59 bases in his career.

That is correct, thanks for catching that.

[jjpm74]

Had Al Dark played later, he probably would have had a few gold gloves as well. He was one of the best defensive short stops in the history of the game at the time he retired. He's a solid maybe for me and someone who could be a yes pending some closer review.

[Cougar]

I've always thought it was peculiar how much Dark has been forgotten. His playing career probably isn't HOF caliber, but it's really rather close. He also had a very impressive managing career, winning a pennant with San Francisco in 1962, a WS with Oakland in 1974, and a division title with the A's in 1975. He famously clashed with Orlando Cepeda in San Francisco, which may have given him a reputation as intolerant that doesn't seem to be justified by any other evidence that I'm aware of.

With his combination of playing and managing, I'd induct him.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dark attended LSU for one year (1943) before going into the military. After the service, he was signed by the Boston Braves as a free agent in 1946. He had a cup of coffee in 1946, but didn't stick with the big club until 1948.

When he stuck, he was a key player in the Braves' rise to the pennant. Dark finished third in the MVP race that year (as well as winning the Rookie of the Year Award), he finished behind Musial (who hit .276 with 39 HRs) and his teammate Johnny Sain. It was a distant third, but Dark had the kind of year that could have copped an MVP if the winner hadn't had an unusually superior year; for Keltner List purposes, I'd classify 1948 as an MVP-type season.

There are three (3) shortstops who would be in the HOF had there been no WWII: Johnny Pesky, Cecil Travis, and Alvin Dark. Does Dark deserve more credit for time lost to war?

[Paul Wendt]

Dark attended LSU for one year (1943) before going into the military. After the service, he was signed by the Boston Braves as a free agent in 1946.
. . .
There are three (3) shortstops who would be in the HOF had there been no WWII: Johnny Pesky, Cecil Travis, and Alvin Dark. Does Dark deserve more credit for time lost to war?
He is "never" covered by those conversations, probably because he did not play in the majors before his military service. In fact he didn't play professionally, and he may not have been a mature collegiate player. That adds one or two stages to the necessary speculation. Presumably he would not have played in the majors during 1943-45, maybe he would have played out his eligibility at LSU. Presumably the point would be that military service delayed his development as ballplayer, else he would have played regularly in 1947 or earlier.

[henrich]

I have him 4th within his era at that position. Rizzuto at 10,799, Reese at 9958, Stephens at 8411 and then Dark at 7634. I think it's too much of a gap to reach that low to grab Dark.

[dgarza]

His career as a player places him is the very good range, but not HOF range and not quite even into the "maybe" range.

His managerial career had some high points, but I would not say it was "very good." I'd rather say "good" or "above average". Still, once added to his playing career, it's enough to put him into the "maybe" range.

[jalbright]

Alvin Dark is about the level I would want to draw the line just above for the "overall career accomplishments" idea. Much above him, I can certainly buy most if not all the cases--but a good player who had a good managing career is setting the bar a little too low for my taste.

[BlueBlood]

I have him 4th within his era at that position. Rizzuto at 10,799, Reese at 9958, Stephens at 8411 and then Dark at 7634. I think it's too much of a gap to reach that low to grab Dark.

Reese below Rizzuto seems bizarre but Scooter did collect a lot of MVP ink, including the award which makes me wonder if I should rethink his value. Stephens is definitely close enough to warrant inclusion and has gradually been added to ballots on the BBFHOF list. I agree that there's too much of a gap between Vern (who is barely over the line as it is) and Alvin.

[jjpm74]

Reese below Rizzuto seems bizarre but Scooter did collect a lot of MVP ink, including the award which makes me wonder if I should rethink his value. Stephens is definitely close enough to warrant inclusion and has gradually been added to ballots on the BBFHOF list. I agree that there's too much of a gap between Vern (who is barely over the line as it is) and Alvin.

Rizzuto did that despite losing 3 high peak years to World War II.

[Fuzzy Bear]

He is "never" covered by those conversations, probably because he did not play in the majors before his military service. In fact he didn't play professionally, and he may not have been a mature collegiate player. That adds one or two stages to the necessary speculation. Presumably he would not have played in the majors during 1943-45, maybe he would have played out his eligibility at LSU. Presumably the point would be that military service delayed his development as ballplayer, else he would have played regularly in 1947 or earlier.

I believe that Dark would have come up to the major leagues as early as 1945 if there had been no war. His strong debut season in 1946 indicates that he was ready for the majors before he came up.

Dark probably would have been signed off of LSU had he been there more than one year. The rules for college guys were different then; there was no FA draft.

His case is not the same as Pesky's or Travis's; each of those guys missed PRIME seasons. But WWII did delay Dark's rise to the majors, and did impact his career totals.

[Los Bravos]

He famously clashed with Orlando Cepeda in San Francisco, which may have given him a reputation as intolerant that doesn't seem to be justified by any other evidence that I'm aware of."We have trouble because we have so many Spanish-speaking and Negro players on the team," Dark told Issacs. "They are just not able to perform up to the white ballplayer when it comes to mental alertness. You can't make most Negro and Spanish players have the pride in their team that you can get from white players. And they aren't as sharp mentally." Dark singled out Cepeda and McCovey as slackers, but didn't mention Mays.I don't think any of this should automatically disqualify Dark from HOF consideration, but I wanted to get that onto the record.

Plenty of men of that era from his background had a struggle to come to terms with the new realities of integrated America, much less Baseball. According to the article, he's since apologized to Cepeda and I think it's generally considered in the past. But his rep was well earned at the time.

Source (http://www.salon.com/people/bc/1999/07/13/mays/print.html)

[Freakshow]

Players 1936-1964 with 590+ G at SS, 4350+ PA, debut 1933-55:

Cnt Player OPS+ RC DbYr PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Ernie Banks 130 1103 1953 6983 1953 1964
2 Lou Boudreau 120 943 1938 7023 1938 1952
3 Vern Stephens 119 1061 1941 7240 1941 1955
4 Harvey Kuenn 110 977 1952 7223 1952 1964
5 Cecil Travis 109 615 1933 4350 1936 1947
6 Johnny Pesky 108 712 1942 5516 1942 1954
7 Pee Wee Reese 99 1125 1940 9470 1940 1958
8 Eddie Joost 99 743 1936 6783 1936 1955
9 Alvin Dark 98 979 1946 7829 1946 1960
10 Johnny Logan 94 656 1951 5893 1951 1963
11 Dick Groat 93 763 1952 6775 1952 1964
12 Phil Rizzuto 93 733 1941 6711 1941 1956
13 Granny Hamner 84 676 1944 6291 1944 1962
14 Chico Carrasquel 82 530 1950 5259 1950 1959
15 Marty Marion 81 611 1940 6141 1940 1953
16 Eddie Miller 80 542 1936 5816 1936 1950
17 Roy McMillan 73 630 1951 6833 1951 1964

The 1940's-50's was a pretty good era for SS.

[henrich]

Reese below Rizzuto seems bizarre but Scooter did collect a lot of MVP ink, including the award which makes me wonder if I should rethink his value. Stephens is definitely close enough to warrant inclusion and has gradually been added to ballots on the BBFHOF list. I agree that there's too much of a gap between Vern (who is barely over the line as it is) and Alvin.

My first thoughts on Rizzuto before research was that he was far inferior to Stephens. I was very shocked to see him score so well, and it made a believer out of me.

[Paul Wendt]

Here Alvin Dark is credited with 7829 PA(*), second among the 19 contemporary shortstops, far behind Reese but 8% ahead of number three Vern Stephens. Stephens leads the pack with only 7240 PA --or 7600 in the 162-game era.

* Credit evidently covers more than shortstop career but less than full career.

[Freakshow]

Here Alvin Dark is credited with 7829 PA(*), second among the 19 contemporary shortstops, far behind Reese but 8% ahead of number three Vern Stephens. Stephens leads the pack with only 7240 PA --or 7600 in the 162-game era.

* Credit evidently covers more than shortstop career but less than full career.
Dark's career PA from BB-Ref: 7829

Of course, the above comparison doesn't mean much until you assign war credt, putting Rizzuto at more than 8400 PA, for one. Dark probably deserves some war credit as well, maybe a year for delayed development.

[Paul Wendt]

> *Credit evidently covers more than shortstop career but less than full career.

Dark's career PA from BB-Ref: 7829
Yes that is Dark's full career. I don't understand the 1964 cutoff for Banks and Kuenn, which don't match their shortstop careers or their major league careers. I don't judge whether or know how much that biases the overall picture of Dark's career length "in his time" but it extends the following point.
Of course, the above comparison doesn't mean much until you assign war credt, putting Rizzuto at more than 8400 PA, for one. Dark probably deserves some war credit as well, maybe a year for delayed development.

[Freakshow]

Yes that is Dark's full career. I don't understand the 1964 cutoff for Banks and Kuenn, which don't match their shortstop careers or their major league careers. I don't know how much that biases the overall picture of Dark's career length "in his time".
1964 was a compromise. In hindsight, 1966 might've been better. Modify the chart however you wish.

The chart really should be titled "Shortstops of the 40's and 50's". (Travis was barely a "contemporary" of Dark.) The cutoffs were fashioned to squeeze Travis and Pesky onto the list.

[KCGHOST]

I guess I am like most folks. Dark had a good playing career and a reasonably successful career as a manager. Not HoF good though.

[Cougar]

Alvin Dark Quote:
"We have trouble because we have so many Spanish-speaking and Negro players on the team," Dark told Issacs. "They are just not able to perform up to the white ballplayer when it comes to mental alertness. You can't make most Negro and Spanish players have the pride in their team that you can get from white players. And they aren't as sharp mentally."

Dark singled out Cepeda and McCovey as slackers, but didn't mention Mays.I don't think any of this should automatically disqualify Dark from HOF consideration, but I wanted to get that onto the record.

Plenty of men of that era from his background had a struggle to come to terms with the new realities of integrated America, much less Baseball. According to the article, he's since apologized to Cepeda and I think it's generally considered in the past. But his rep was well earned at the time.

Source (http://www.salon.com/people/bc/1999/07/13/mays/print.html)

Ouch...that's a nasty, ugly quote.

Point taken...Dark had some major, serious adjustment issues with integration. You are more understanding than some would be with your assessment of Dark's "struggle to come to terms"; it's not easy to balance compassion and forgiveness with disapproval.

Thanks for your research.

[Los Bravos]

I couldn't remember the exact quote, so I had to go a-Googling, but I read about the incident a few years ago.

Reading the article, I was a little surprised that Dark even sat down with Jackie Robinson in the mid-60's. Less for reasons of racial animus than personal. I can remember him being bitterly critical of Jackie to Roger Kahn after Robinson blasted Davey Williams breaking up a double play sometime during the epic Dodger-Giant rumbles of the '50's. I think he compared Jackie to Hitler :laugh

I'm not inclined to forget these kinds of things, but I can forgive them, if the person shows some real effort to adjust their onerous views. Bobby Bragan, another southerner of the same era, has written frankly and movingly of his evolution.

I can't believe we've gotten this deep into this topic without anyone mentioning the "Take a hike, son." anecdote :)

[Turbine]

Alvin Dark finished his collegiate career at the University of Louisiana where he bat .462 here is a timeline. http://www.raginpagin.com/hotpage/showthread.php3?p=413#post413

Jackie Robinson and Alvin Dark were the only two players to ever win the MLB Rookie of the year award.

Being so close as a player and so close as a manager he is a no brainer for the HoF. For some reason people can't seem to connect the two.

[Paul Wendt]

It appears that he may have been a full-time soldier, even overseas, for almost two years. But he may have missed only one baseball season, 1945.

After minor league rookie of the year in 1946, what happened in 1947? Was there a rookie of the year in every minor league, at every minor level, or only one in all the minor leagues?
Whatever the details of the award, progress of young ballplayers may have been slowed by returning veterans. Were there some with job rights in 1947?

I suppose he moved to UL for military reasons. Eg, from the interior to the coast for purposes of a Navy program?