Did I go too far?

[StanTheMan]

I'm continuously shocked that the Cub fans are naming their team as the PREMIER team in the National League... not THIS season, but historically.

So I posted the following in response to one of them... all of them really.


Ridiculous post. I hope you are joking, or are blinded by the last four months only. Even if you are looking at recent seasons, the Cubs are nowhere near premier in the NL.

On a very basic level, look at WINS. WIn more games than the other teams, and you will do well, simple as that.

The Cubs have won an avearege of 78 games per season since 2000. They have not won 90 games this decade.

Looking back further into their remarkable futility, they have won 90 games just twice since Man Landed on the Moon.

They have won 90 games just 5 times since before World War II. But have they been winning, just can't get to 90? Simply, no. The Cubs have only eighteen seasons above .500 ball since BEFORE World War II. Yep, a thrilling 18 out of nearly 70 seasons. That's more than FIFTY less than memorable seasons.

Conversely, the Cardinals (adimittedly I'm biased, but wins are wins, period.) have won more than 90 games FIVE times in this decade, equalling what the Cubs have done since 1938 in just 7 years since 2000. Two of those years they have topped 100 wins, something the Cubs have not done in so long I don't want to look it up. Probably before the automobile.

But are the Redbirds a recent success, a flash in the pan? Nope.

Twenty-One seasons beyond 90 wins (7 over 100 wins, btw) in the same time frame the Cubs have just 5. The Cards have averaged 92 wins this decade. Again, the Cubs have averaged 78, so even the Cubs "recent" success has not been that good when you look at it.

The sure can contend when it takes less than 90 wins to win the division! At least every once in a while they can.


Sorry, but being the most popular, or having a Cable Television Channel go nationwide near the birth and explosion of cable television does NOT make a fanchise premier.

But it does make the franchise popular! (Apparently it also helps to get the Cards announcer when he is old and washed up!!!)


Think about it this way, using the benchmark of 90 wins again, which virtually guarantees you will contend that season.... If the Cubs want to match the Cardinals success of 21 seasons above 90 wins... based on their current rate of achieveing 90 win seasons, they will have to play more than 220 MORE seasons to match the Cards success.

The thread is in Curent Events. I especially like that last bit of math. 220 MORE seasons to match us, lol.

Cheers,
Bryan

[STLCards2]

The issue with that thread is the semantics of the word "premier." those who interpret "premier" as focusing on fame or attention will rightly chose the Cubs. The Cubs are the most famous NL team (with the exception maybe of the Dodgers) and are media darlings who FOX would love to see in the WS. There are more Cubs hats and jerseys on 11-year old bodies around the country than any other NL franchise. All of this is true. Those who see "premiere" as success will rightly chose the Cardinals. All depends on your definition of "premier."

[StanTheMan]

Sure, but is was fun reiterating for everyone just how bad they have been. Only 18 seasons above .500 since BEFORE Adolf Hitler came into power?

Yikes

[hubkittel]

I can see making the argument that they're "one of" the premier teams in the NL but that certainly isn't based on their "success" on the field. It has more to do with a history dating back to the old National Association, their market, their ballpark, Harry, Take Me Out To The Ballpark during the seventh inning stretch, etc. I think the two premier teams in the league are the Cards and Dodgers with the Cubs or Giants a distant third.

Anyway this gives us an excuse to pull out The List (of things that have happened since the Cubs last won a World Series):

-Radio was invented, Cubs fans could hear their teams lose.
-TV was invented, Cubs fans could see their teams lose.
-Baseball added 14 teams, Cubs fans get to see and hear their teams lose to more clubs.
-George Burns celebrated his 10th, 20th, 30th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 70th, 80th, 90th, and 100th birthdays.
-Haley's comet passed Earth (twice).
-Harry Caray was born and died.
-The NBA, NHL, and NFL were formed, and Chicago teams won championships in each sport
- Man landed on the moon.
-16 U.S. presidents were elected.
-There were 11 amendments added to the constitution
-Prohibition was created and repealed.
-The Titanic was built, set sail, sank, was discovered, and became the subject of major motion pictures, the latest giving Cubs Fans hope that something on bottom can come out on top.
-Wrigley was built and becomes the oldest park in the National League.
-Flag poles were erected on Wrigley's roof to hold all the team's future World Series Pennants. These poles have since rusted and been taken down.
-A combination of 40 summer and winter Olympics have been held.
-Thirteen baseball players have won the triple crown in baseball.
-Bell bottoms came in style, went out of style, and came back in.
-The Chicago White Sox, Cleveland Indians, Boston Red Sox, and the Florida Marlins have all won world series.
-The Cubs have played more than 14,000 regular season games.
-Alaska, Arizona, Hawaii, Oklahoma, and New Mexico were added to the Union.

[StanTheMan]

Well Done Hub!!

The Cubs are certainly the most "popular" team in the NL, with regards to out of market fans. Having a huge Cable TV station emerge when Cable TV was in it's infancy, and then when it exploded, will do that for you.

Heck, if St. Louis had a "WGN" equivalent, and every game had been accessible to nearly every TV in America for the 25+ years instead of the Cubs, we might have won even MORE NL Pennants than we did.

[STLCards2]

Well Done Hub!!


Heck, if St. Louis had a "WGN" equivalent, and every game had been accessible to nearly every TV in America for the 25+ years instead of the Cubs, we might have won even MORE NL Pennants than we did.

Why do you claim that? More revenue, more spending?

[ringo-dog]

Just something else for you guys to chew on. . . About the Cubbies and their pet TV channel.

History tells us that at one time the Cards were the alledged "premier" team in the National League (at least in a good deal of the country) because of their radio network. Back in the early days of radio (1930's through the early 1950's) the team had built up a vast network of stations, especially KMOX, broadcasting Cardinal games all over the mid-west, south and beyond. Lots of baseball fans were Cardinal fans simply because they couldn't hear any other team on the radio. Obviously with the spread of radio broadcasts (and later TV) and the expansion of teams nationwide that widespread fan loyalty has faded for the Cards. Fan loyalty became more of a regional thing. Perhaps the regional population density and longevity are reasons the Cubs are more "popular". Also, the media love affair with any teams, in any sport, that hail from New York, Boston, Chicago and later Los Angeles has played a part in increasing the popularity of teams in those places. Most of those media guys are working out of New York, Chicago and Los Angeles you know. (Except maybe CNN who has their own horn to toot.)

Wasn't Atlanta telling everyone a few years ago on TBS that they were some sort of "America's team"?

Love the list Hubkittel has put together of things that have happened since the Cubs won a series. I have looked into it some too and have found a couple of fun additions.


Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were supposedly killed in South America in November 1908.
US income taxes, 1913.
Chevrolet Motor Company, 1911.
Dizzy Dean was born, 1910.
Stainless steel was invented, 1913.
The NAACP was organized, 1909.

One final one, though it happened BEFORE the Cubs won their last Series, by about three weeks. Henry Ford began production of the Model T Ford on September 17, 1908.




Jack Buck and Harry Carey - Cardinal fans!

[StanTheMan]

Why do you claim that? More revenue, more spending?


I've seen more Cub hats on more heads this season than any in recent memory... they are really coming out from under their rocks this year, and the ability to name the starting rotation is apparently NOT a pre-requisite.

Even in other years, it seems to me the Cub fans are everywhere... much more so than Dodgers, Cards, Giant or Braves. Obviously Wrigley is very well known, Harry Caray and all that crap. The Cubs seem to have more "casual" fans than other teams, which increase their numbers.

Just my observations, though.

[KCGHOST]

Just another case of an exuberant fan thinking that "now" represents all time. I think many of us can remember when Wrigley was just another ballpark, not the shrine it is today.

[parlo]

Just another case of an exuberant fan thinking that "now" represents all time. I think many of us can remember when Wrigley was just another ballpark, not the shrine it is today.There is a tendency for Cub fans to portray themselves as the NL version of the Red Sox. They both play in sacred old parks and havent won in ages. (Now the Red Sox have won).
They both have somewhat of a national following, although they are not unique in this.
The difference I believe is that during the World Championship drought of the Red Sox, they were still very often a good team. The Red Sox may not have won since 1918, but they were often in the thick of things. The Cubs dont have that history of being perennial contenders. Its more lovable losers.

The other thing I would add is that as an outsider, I view the Cardinals and the Dodgers as the two premier teams of the NL. I would define premier as a combination of team success,front office success, national following, tradition, history, and local fan base.

Nice job against the Padres this weekend. Granted its the padres, but those were some great comebacks. The SD paper today made it sound as if the fans were booing the Padre pitcher for hitting a HR. I felt that they were booing the STL pitcher for giving up a HR to a pitcher.

[wogdoggy]

I've seen more Cub hats on more heads this season than any in recent memory... they are really coming out from under their rocks this year, and the ability to name the starting rotation is apparently NOT a pre-requisite.

Even in other years, it seems to me the Cub fans are everywhere... much more so than Dodgers, Cards, Giant or Braves. Obviously Wrigley is very well known, Harry Caray and all that crap. The Cubs seem to have more "casual" fans than other teams, which increase their numbers.

Just my observations, though.



I think its because their blue uniform goes nice with denim..what else could it possibly be?:rofl:

[StanTheMan]

I think its because their blue uniform goes nice with denim..what else could it possibly be?:rofl:

Maybe it's the solid blue Road jerseys that look like Softball jerseys, or travel team youth baseball jerseys? Goes well with denim? More like goes well with dirty flip flops, drunkenness, and sleeping somewhere other than your own home frequently, and there are NO women there.

[StanTheMan]

Just another case of an exuberant fan thinking that "now" represents all time. I think many of us can remember when Wrigley was just another ballpark, not the shrine it is today.

My first visit to Wrigley was in the 80's and it was less than a shrine indeed. The falling concrete underneath the upper deck that is a problem NOW is not too impressive either.

Here's another thing about the Cub fans.... they like to pump themselves up a lot. I suppose if the Cards had an unsuccessful Century, I would shout from the mountaintops every time they were in contention, but I'd like to think I would have a little bit of perspective as well.

I'm flipping the channels on Saturday (maybe Friday)... Zambrano's pitching I think, and the phone in question for all the Cub fans to call in and text in and vote was the following....

Which division do YOU think is the best division in the National League? I don't know for sure, but I think lots of Cub Fans were quick to call in and pump up the Central Division... makes em feel good, see.

Put the same question on a Cards broadcast, and lots of us (not all, but lots) immediately say to whomever we are watching the game with "What kind of a BS question is that!!!!!" and immediately move on.

Sure, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but the general mindset of the two sets of fans is very different....... I like lots of Cub fans, but just don't understand them all the time.

[deadball-era-rules]

I agree in some aspects. I've beento Wrigley, and even though the park may be pretty rickety, I sure enjoyed it more than at New Busch because I didn't have techno music blaring in my ears constantly. At Wrigley I could just sit back and enjoy the game with no LED lights blinding me or annoying promotions.

On the flip side, I agree that the Cubs need to quiet down a bit. They're still no better than mediocre and that's after spending nearly $300 million in one offseason a couple years ago. They didn't raise they're own talent, they took the Yankee route to success (Or lack thereof) by resorting to throwing money on the fire.

[Senior skittles]

My friend who is not a baseball fan didint understand all this comotion about the cubs cards rivvalry when I took him to a game...I showed him this thread and he began to understand...lol hes a cards fan now so great job guys!

[hubkittel]

the general mindset of the two sets of fans is very different....... I like lots of Cub fans, but just don't understand them all the time.

George Will, speaking in 1998, on the difference between Cards fans and Cub fans:


I grew up in Champaign, Illinois, midway between Chicago and St. Louis. At an age too tender for life-shaping decisions, I made one. While all my friends were becoming Cardinals fans, I became a Cub fan. My friends, happily rooting for Stan Musial, Red Schoendienst and other great Redbirds, grew up cheerfully convinced that the world is a benign place, so of course, they became liberals. Rooting for the Cubs in the late 1940s and early 1950s, I became gloomy, pessimistic, morose, dyspeptic and conservative. It helped out of course that the Cubs last won the World Series in 1908, which is two years before Mark Twain and Tolstoy died. But that means...that the Cubs are in the 89th year of their rebuilding effort, and remember, any team can have a bad moment. So...my last piece of advice is - Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be Cub fans.