Mike Mussina 300 Win Countdown thread

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Since there is so much debate whether Mike Mussina will last long enough to win his 300th game I thought it would be great to get a running tally! :)

Tonight Mussina won his 262th game of his career.


Cano, A-Rod help Mussina earn 12th win for Yanks

NEW YORK (AP) -- Mike Mussina received plenty of support from the New York Yankees, and newcomer Richie Sexson was right in the middle of it.

Robinson Cano hit a three-run homer, Alex Rodriguez also connected and New York built an early cushion for Mussina in a 7-1 victory over the Oakland Athletics on Friday night.

Sexson hit an RBI single in his first at-bat with the Yankees, and Mussina (12-6) pitched six effective innings to tie Cleveland's Cliff Lee and fellow All-Star Joe Saunders of the Los Angeles Angels for most wins in the AL.

"We looked good today. If we can look like this every day, we've got a chance," Mussina said.

Mussina was left off the All-Star team for Tuesday night's showcase at Yankee Stadium, yet he's certainly pitched like one of baseball's best this season.

The 39-year-old right-hander allowed eight singles and a double, but pitched out of trouble and did not walk a batter for the eighth time this year. Relying on pinpoint control, he has 16 walks in 20 starts spanning 113 1/3 innings.

Mussina gave up an RBI groundout to Ryan Sweeney in the first, then settled in to finish with six strikeouts despite not throwing his deceptive changeup all game.

"That's just the way it evolved," Mussina said.

David Robertson struck out all three hitters in the seventh, Edwar Ramirez worked a perfect eighth and LaTroy Hawkins tossed a 1-2-3 ninth as New York pitchers combined to retire its final 14 batters -- seven on strikeouts.

Bobby Abreu added an RBI double for the Yankees and Rodriguez (three hits) had a run-scoring single off lefty Greg Smith (5-8), handed the ball when scheduled starter Joe Blanton was traded to Philadelphia on Thursday.

"I wasn't throwing on short rest or anything, so that was fine," Smith said after the shortest outing of his brief career. "There was a little bit of rust, but I'm not going to make excuses. I just didn't have it tonight."

The A's, who won six of their previous seven at Yankee Stadium, have lost three straight overall for the first time since dropping four in a row May 28-31.

New York, which began a stretch that includes 13 of 16 games at home, equaled a season high by winning its fifth consecutive home game.

Looking for another second-half surge to match last year, the Yankees scored six runs with two outs. They hope Sexson can provide some pop from the right side against left-handed pitching, and he delivered immediately with a two-out RBI single in the first that tied it at 1.

"It felt good," said Sexson, released by Seattle last week. "The hardest part was not seeing a pitcher for nine days."

That certainly didn't hinder him.

"He's a guy who's done a lot of good things in his career and we believe he's got a lot left," New York manager Joe Girardi said.

Cano followed with a single to right and Rodriguez barreled into catcher Kurt Suzuki -- a clean collision -- while trying to score. Suzuki, however, held onto Sweeney's strong throw for the third out.

Cano, hoping to rebound from a disappointing first half, put the Yankees up 4-1 by driving a 1-2 pitch to right-center with two outs in the third for his first homer since June 27.

It was his first shot at Yankee Stadium since May 8 against Cleveland.

"It should be a great second half for him," Girardi said. "He's a career .330-plus hitter after the All-Star break. Some hitters just take longer to get going."

That was more than enough for Mussina, who improved to 11-3 with a 3.00 ERA in his past 16 starts with career win No. 262. His 12th win of the season surpassed last year's total.

"We were swinging the bats well at the beginning, but then he started hitting spots and then they exploded on us offensively," said Oakland shortstop Bobby Crosby, activated from the disabled list before the game.

Rodriguez's solo shot in the sixth was his 20th this season and the 538th of his career.

[Brooklyn]

Do you think he'll get there? I highly doubt it. If he does, this thread could se the record for longest active thread :)

[DodgerBlue8188]

If he won another 8 games this year which is possible but I doubt it will happen. He'd still need about 30 games. That's another 2 full seasons and only if he won average of 15 games. I don't see that happening.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 262
Wins to go: 38
ETA for 300th win: May 2011

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If Jaime Moyer can pitch until age 45 and still be going strong is it not possible for Mussina to pitch through age 42?

[Old Sweater]

If Jaime Moyer can pitch until age 45 and still be going strong is it not possible for Mussina to pitch through age 42?

Heck yeah...always been a big Moose fan except when he was beating the Yankees all the time. Plus Moose still throws gas compared to Moyer....:) of course Moyer never had gas to start with.

Going to be tough for him to get 300 but at least he has a chance. Guy just knows how to win.

I'm just clicking by heels this season after reading post after post towards the end of last year and the start of this year how he was washed up, even though he finished 2007 strong and helped the Yankees get to the playoffs. Guess a lot of fans don't think you're entitled to a bump in the road after you get in your mid 30's or so....

[yamsi12]

i doubt he'll get it.

randy johnson is at 290 and the way he pitching he may not make it.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

i doubt he'll get it.

randy johnson is at 290 and the way he pitching he may not make it.

One caveat, though, is that Mussina is five years younger than Johnson.

[bryanspellman]

Give Moose 4 years with 8-10 wins a year and he will do it. He is much more durable then Johnson and much more 'smart' in pitching then most. He knows his limits and respects them. Which means more life in that arm of his...can't wait for him to win 300. He can do it!

[KCGHOST]

Who is going to pay him to win 8-10 games for each of the next four years??

[Old Sweater]

Who is going to pay him to win 8-10 games for each of the next four years??

Who is sure that'll just win 8-10 games instead of 15-18 the next 4 years? He happens to be leading the AL in wins right now and looks far from washed up.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I wanted to get a feel for how BBF views Mussina. Please rank the followng pitchers.

Mike Mussina
Don Sutton
Gaylord Perry
Ferguson Jenkins
Early Wynn
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Robin Roberts

[Seattle1]

If Jaime Moyer can pitch until age 45 and still be going strong is it not possible for Mussina to pitch through age 42?

The remarkable thing is that Moyer looks like he can pitch to age 55. Maybe we need a 300-win countdown thread for him too!

;)

[nerfan]

The remarkable thing is that Moyer looks like he can pitch to age 55. Maybe we need a 300-win countdown thread for him too!

;)

THE ONION

PHILADELPHIA—Following a 60-foot, six-inch voyage that began at the distant pitching rubber, a Jamie Moyer-thrown change-up arrived at home plate for a called third strike nearly 147 seconds after it was thrown. "There were a few minutes when I thought it would never get here," said Phillies catcher Chris Coste, who had to rise from his squatting position to stretch twice during the pitch's journey in order to keep the feeling in his legs. "First Ryan [Howard] almost cut it off to catch the runner going to second, then decided against it, then was about to grab it again before I shouted to him that it might count as a balk. Then the batter took a swing, backed up and took another swing before striking out when it hit the outside corner.After that, I had to wait in the catcher's box for what felt like forever when the runner decided to try to score all the way from first.And then you saw how [centerfielder] Shane [Victorino] almost ruined the whole thing when he ran past the pitch because he thought the inning was over. Thank goodness Jamie's change-up had that very, very late movement so that it eventually dipped around Shane and right into the sliding runner's path." Moyer later revealed that the pitch was a fastball.

[Old Sweater]

^ LOL

thanks nerfan!

[Brad Harris]

I wanted to get a feel for how BBF views Mussina. Please rank the followng pitchers.

Mike Mussina
Don Sutton
Gaylord Perry
Ferguson Jenkins
Early Wynn
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Robin Roberts

Robin Roberts
Gaylord Perry
Ferguson Jenkins
Early Wynn
Mike Mussina
Don Sutton
Jim Kaat
Tommy John

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Robin Roberts
Gaylord Perry
Ferguson Jenkins
Early Wynn
Mike Mussina
Don Sutton
Jim Kaat
Tommy John

Thanks Classic! :thumbsup: That's about how I see them. Roberts, Perry, Jenkins, and Wynn had seasons were they were the best pitcher in their league. I don't think Mussina was ever the best pitcher in his league in any one season.

[Brad Harris]

Thanks Classic! :thumbsup: That's about how I see them. Roberts, Perry, Jenkins, and Wynn had seasons were they were the best pitcher in their league. I don't think Mussina was ever the best pitcher in his league in any one season.
Which is no slight against Moose since his competition includes many of the greatest seasons by Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. ;)

[Brooklyn]

Robin Roberts
Gaylord Perry
Ferguson Jenkins
Early Wynn
Mike Mussina
Don Sutton
Jim Kaat
Tommy John

I have them pretty similar to you, switching a couple around:

Perry, Jenkins, Roberts, Wynn, Sutton, Mussina, John, Kaat

Mussina will probably be ahead of Sutton by the time his career ends, but I can't ignore the 62 extra wins for Sutton right now.

[White Knight]

Congrats to Moose for career win number 263, and 13 for the year! He is going to get to 300, and win 20+ AND a Cy Young this year!

[rsuriyop]

Congrats to Moose for career win number 263, and 13 for the year! He is going to get to 300, and win 20+ AND a Cy Young this year!

Don't know about 300, but winning 20+ this year certainly looks possible. He's been robbed of it quite a few times throughout his career. So let's just hope he'll finally get it this time. :crossfingers:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 263
Wins to go: 37
ETA for 300th win: May 2011


Mussina, Yankees top Twins for 10th straight home win

NEW YORK (AP) -- Mike Mussina entered this season almost an afterthought in the Yankees' rotation, the old man on a staff of budding stars. What a difference four months makes.


Mussina walked off the Yankee Stadium mound Wednesday to rousing "Mooose!" calls from the sold-out crowd, having thrown eight economical innings in New York's 5-1 win over the Minnesota Twins for the Yankees' 10th straight home victory.

Last year "I physically couldn't do what I wanted to do. The whole year was miserable," Mussina said after giving up six hits without allowing a run.

"Today was probably a good day," he said with a smirk.

Alex Rodriguez and Justin Christian each had two-run doubles and Richie Sexson had a sacrifice fly and 11 putouts and three assists at first base as the Yankees completed a 6-0 post-break homestand with sweeps of Oakland and the Twins.

"It starts with starting pitching, defense and timely hitting, and we're getting all those now," Rodriguez said.

The Yankees will try to continue the stellar play on the road, taking their mediocre 23-23 road record into Fenway Park in Boston for three games starting Friday.

The Twins did not get a runner past second base against Mussina (13-6) in losing their fourth straight game and dropping 2½ games back of the White Sox in the AL Central.

"It was a disappointing ballgame. I don't know how to describe it," Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. "Our trip here was not very good. We played terrible baseball pretty much all the way through it."

The 39-year-old Mussina retired 14 of the first 17 batters and, for the third straight start, didn't walk a batter. He has given up just five runs in his past five starts and now has 263 career wins.

It's quite a turnaround from last season, when he was 11-10 with a career-high 5.15 ERA. He was overshadowed by the young prospects, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy during spring training.

But while they went a combined 0-7 for the Yankees before going down with injuries, Mussina has emerged as the team's most consistent pitcher.

"You could really make a good case, without Moose I don't know where we would be," Yankees manager Joe Girardi said.

LaTroy Hawkins gave up three hits, including Mike Lamb's RBI single in the ninth, before giving way to Mariano Rivera. The closer struck out pinch-hitter Jason Kubel with runners on second and third for his 25th save.

The 10-game winning streak at home is the Yankees' longest since Sept. 9, 1998, to April 14, 1999. The last time New York won 10 in a row at Yankee Stadium in a single season was July 26 to Aug. 14, 1998.

"We did a real nice job during this homestand," Girardi said. "It's been a real nice stretch for us."

A big part of New York's recent success is the re-emergence of Robinson Cano, who went 2-for-4 and was in the middle of yet another Yankees scoring opportunity.

Hitting .560 since working on his swing with his father in the Dominican Republic during the All-Star break, Cano singled in the fifth and scored on Christian's two-run double down the left-field line to give New York a 2-0 lead.

Christian got a turn to bat in the inning because Twins second baseman Alexi Casilla lost track of the outs, and instead of trying to turn two with the slow-footed Jose Molina running to first he just got the force.

"Lexi made a mistake but that just cannot happen," Gardenhire said. "That's as routine a double play as can happen. You just throw the ball. Who was running?"

Glen Perkins (7-3) was coming off throwing six shutout innings against the powerful Texas Rangers and had won five straight decisions. He last loss on May 30, against the Yankees.

Perkins, who is considered one of the main reasons why Francisco Liriano's agent has asked the union to investigate why his client has not been called up despite dominating Triple-A hitters for the past six weeks, gave up a season-high five runs on eight hits and a walk.

He gave up a double off the left-center wall to Rodriguez in the sixth that scored Derek Jeter and Bobby Abreu, who ran through third base coach Bobby Meacham's stop sign and slid in just ahead of the relay that catcher Mike Redmond could not handle.

Rodriguez advanced on the throw and Sexson followed with his sacrifice fly to make it 5-0.

It was his defense that earned Sexson the most praise. He made several tough plays.

"Obviously when you're 6-foot-12, you're going to get a lot of balls," Mussina said.

But Sexson returned the compliment, saying Mussina's pinpoint control is the reason he played so well.

"It makes it easy to play defense when you see the catcher set up and he's hitting his spots," Sexson said.

[Old Sweater]

Win total: 263
Wins to go: 37
ETA for 300th win: May 2011


Not if you take his .637 career winning percentage X 30 starts a year.(19.11 year)

Could hit 300 wins towards the end of the 2010 season if he continues to pitch well at the .684 clip he is doing this year.

[slugger33]

Will this finally be the year he wins 20 games? He is on pace to go 20-9.

[STLCards2]

I wanted to get a feel for how BBF views Mussina. Please rank the followng pitchers.

Mike Mussina
Don Sutton
Gaylord Perry
Ferguson Jenkins
Early Wynn
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Robin Roberts

1.Gaylord Perry - most IP and second best ERA+ of all mentioned
2.Robin Roberts - best peak by far of guys on list, top 2-3 pitcher in baseball 6 straight seasons
3.Fergie Jenkins - the Mussina of his day - always very good, never a "Pedroesque" domination streak, See: Plank and Glavine
4. Mike Mussina -see: #3
5. Don Sutton - underrated by many, not just an innings eater
6. Early Wynn - great longevity and offense boost the relatively low ERA+
7. Tommy John - Early Wynn without the offense
8. Jim Kaat - fewer IP and lower ERA+ than John - no cool surgery named after him either. Just kidding!:)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 264
Wins to go: 36
ETA for 300th win: May 2011

Mussina has another strong outing to make up for his past start where he got hit hard. :thumbsup:


NEW YORK (AP) -- Mike Mussina was standing in front of his locker, talking about how little he speaks to Jose Molina, when the catcher walked by, shouted an exaggerated "Hi," and kept going.

These two are so in sync that Molina didn't stop to see Mussina's grin -- he just knew the right-hander was smiling.

Mussina retired the final 17 batters he faced in seven solid innings, Molina hit one of New York's four home runs and the Yankees snapped Los Angeles' five-game winning streak with an 8-2 victory Saturday.

"It's almost like we've been buddies for 15 years," Mussina said. "We don't need to sit down. ... We make up a game plan after we've started."

Molina has been behind the plate for 21 of Mussina's 23 starts, and manager Joe Girardi decided to stay with the combination after the Yankees acquired future Hall of Famer Ivan Rodriguez on Wednesday.

On Saturday, Molina guided Moose to his 264th career win by using what the catcher called "feelings."

"You realize very quickly he has a good idea what he's doing. His feel for it is impressive," Mussina said. "He understands what's going on. ... He knows how to catch."

Molina also provided some offense, scoring three times and going 3-for-3, including his first home run since Sept. 5 -- a span of 221 at-bats.

"He's a big part of our team," Girardi said. "Just had an outstanding day."

After two nights of being outclassed by the Angels in every aspect of the game, the Yankees rebounded with a complete win of their own despite missing Robinson Cano from the starting lineup.

Alex Rodriguez, Wilson Betemit and Bobby Abreu all homered and Mussina, a six-time Gold Glove winner, made several stellar plays on the mound in front of 54,170 fans on Old-Timers' Day, helping the Yankees to their second victory in seven games.

Playing without center fielder Torii Hunter, who traveled home to Pine Bluff, Ark., on Saturday morning to attend the funeral of his grandmother, Edna Cobbs, the Angels dropped to 12-3 after the All-Star break. Los Angeles also was without shortstop Maicer Izturis, who jammed his thumb making a spectacular play in Friday's 1-0 win. X-rays of the hand showed a sprain, and manager Mike Scioscia said "sprains can take some time [to heal]."

The Yankees looked as if they were headed for another woeful outing against the team with the best record in baseball. They fell behind 2-0 in the second inning thanks to fill-in second baseman Betemit's throwing error. And the first four New York batters struck out against Jered Weaver, three looking.

But Jason Giambi popped out to break the strikeout spell and Xavier Nady followed with a two-out single to right. Betemit then made up for his error with a tying two-run shot.

Bouncing back from a rough outing against Baltimore, Mussina (14-7) was dominant after loading the bases on two hits and a walk, and giving up two runs -- one earned -- in the second. Had Betemit completed the double-play turn, Mussina would have gotten out of the inning without allowing a run.

"He was just hitting the corners," said Mark Teixeira, who went 0-for-3 for the Angels. "That's the way he is. He's going to live on the corners. This guy's one of the great pitchers of our era."

With the bases loaded, Mussina got Jeff Mathis, who had not grounded into a double play in 203 at-bats, to hit a routine grounder to third. Alex Rodriguez made the throw to second for an out, but Betemit's relay to first was in the dirt and the ball bounced out of Giambi's mitt, allowing Howie Kendrick to score the second run.

"The second inning was just a groundball single to right, a flyball that bounced into the stands and a groundball that didn't get turned," Mussina said.

In the field, Mussina snared a sharp comebacker to start the game, pounced on a bunt in the third and handled another hard-hit grounder in the fourth.

Jose Veras struck out three in a hitless eighth and Brian Bruney gave up a hit in the ninth to finish the three-hitter.

Abreu homered in the third, Molina connected in the fifth and A-Rod led off the sixth with the 542nd homer of his career and 24th of the season.

"A couple of them were good pitches they put good swings on -- Abreu and the one to A-Rod," Weaver said. "You just tip your cap to them."

Weaver (9-9) allowed six runs and eight hits in five-plus innings. He struck out five and walked one.

[geezer]

14 wins on August 2nd, can anybody say 20-win season?

[Los Bravos]

If he wins 20 this year, maybe we can start a pool to see who will be the first person to write that he doesn't belong in the Hall because he "only won 20 one time."

The only person stopping Mike Mussina from winning 300 games is Mike Mussina. I'm not sure he's going to want to hang around that long. I hope I'm wrong, because I am a huge fan of his, and I would like to see him build an unshakeable case.

[geezer]

Another thing for Mussina, as of today 8-3-2008, the Moose is 36 wins shy of 300 and 247 Ks shy of 3,000 as well.

And speaking of players with 1 20-win season, Don Sutton won 20 games only once, and he's in the Hall.

[White Knight]

Any chance he can win a Cy Young this year?

[BSmile]

Any chance he can win a Cy Young this year?

Any chance?
I'd say he would have to seriously be in the discussion at least (well, at this moment). There's still two months to go...so we'll see. He's really re-invented his pitching this year. What's the award for "most improved player", I'd say that he'd be up for that too. He really might make 20 wins this year...he seems to be on pace for it right now. BTW, yesterday's Old-Timers Game was really something. Not the game so much...but the introductions were amazing. It took forever and I loved every minute of it. It's kinda sad that they're the only team left doing it.

[White Knight]

Any chance?
I'd say he would have to seriously be in the discussion at least (well, at this moment). There's still two months to go...so we'll see. He's really re-invented his pitching this year. What's the award for "most improved player", I'd say that he'd be up for that too. He really might make 20 wins this year...he seems to be on pace for it right now. BTW, yesterday's Old-Timers Game was really something. Not the game so much...but the introductions were amazing. It took forever and I loved every minute of it. It's kinda sad that they're the only team left doing it.

Not to get off topic, but I really wanted to see Bernie Williams and Don Mattingly, but they weren't there. :( No Dave Righetti either...

[Bravesfan1984]

What happens though if he wins 20 games and does not win the CY. I mean he finally won 20 games but was not even the best pitcher that year.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What happens though if he wins 20 games and does not win the CY. I mean he finally won 20 games but was not even the best pitcher that year.

How often does the "best pitcher" win the Cy Young Award? Quite often he does NOT. Mussina won't win the AL Cy Young Award but he'll get some votes. I bet he finishes no worse than 3rd or 4th if he wins 20 games.

[Los Bravos]

and 247 Ks shy of 3,000 as well. That would be a huge feather in his HOF cap.

[geezer]

That would be a huge feather in his HOF cap.

Imagine that, he will become the 11th pitcher with 300 Wins and 3,000 Ks, of course, if Randy Johnson wins 300, that will be a great resume on his career.

[Old Sweater]

The Moose was nasty on FOX Sat for sure.

If Betemit turns the DP it could have been a shut out.

[Brad Harris]

What happens though if he wins 20 games and does not win the CY. I mean he finally won 20 games but was not even the best pitcher that year.

You just described the vast majority of 20-game winners since the Cy Young Award was given out. What's your point?

[lyrical]

The only person stopping Mike Mussina from winning 300 games is Mike Mussina. I'm not sure he's going to want to hang around that long. I hope I'm wrong, because I am a huge fan of his, and I would like to see him build an unshakeable case.
I agree completely. If he has the will to do it, membership in the 300 wins/3000 strikeouts club is his for the taking. And I definitely hope he decides to go for it and put himself forward as a lock for the HOF. Coming off a good season like this one has been so far, no doubt a couple of teams will offer him multi-year deals if he doesn't retire.

He has no chance at the Cy this year because Cliff Lee has better numbers in every category, but he may collect some second and third place votes at his current level of production. 20 wins would be great though.

[White Knight]

What happens though if he wins 20 games and does not win the CY. I mean he finally won 20 games but was not even the best pitcher that year.

Ya know, as much as I want him to win 20 games this year, a part of me wants him to win 19, then 16 games next year, and 15 the next, so he retires with exactly 300 wins, no 20 game seasons or Cy Youngs, and makes the HOF. Why do I hope this? To piss guys off who say he doesn't belong, and to prove a point that anyone with 300 wins or 3,000 hits will make the Hall, no exceptions (PED users and gamblers aside).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I agree completely. If he has the will to do it, membership in the 300 wins/3000 strikeouts club is his for the taking. And I definitely hope he decides to go for it and put himself forward as a lock for the HOF. Coming off a good season like this one has been so far, no doubt a couple of teams will offer him multi-year deals if he doesn't retire.

He has no chance at the Cy this year because Cliff Lee has better numbers in every category, but he may collect some second and third place votes at his current level of production. 20 wins would be great though.
I think Mussina will go for it not only because 300 wins is a significant career milestone but he can still make a really good salary. For years people would say that players won't play as long because they make plenty of money thus they don't have to play 20+ years. . I always thought that was the silliest argument. What some people fail to understand is two things.

1) Player's competitive nature
Most ballplayers love to complete they love to play the game. It's in their blood to keep playing as long as they can play.

2) Income potential
Players recognize that they will never make the kind of income after retirement (coach, manager, front office, radio/TV guy) that they can as a player. If they are 37-40 years old and are still healthy and can play they know they can probably get $5 million/yr salary at least. They will never make that kind of money once they retire.

[Bravesfan1984]

Ya know, as much as I want him to win 20 games this year, a part of me wants him to win 19, then 16 games next year, and 15 the next, so he retires with exactly 300 wins, no 20 game seasons or Cy Youngs, and makes the HOF. Why do I hope this? To piss guys off who say he doesn't belong, and to prove a point that anyone with 300 wins or 3,000 hits will make the Hall, no exceptions (PED users and gamblers aside).

If he does not win a CY Young or 20 wins and makes it to 300 he does not deserve to get in. He will because of 300 but he was never a great plater.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If he does not win a CY Young or 20 wins and makes it to 300 he does not deserve to get in.
You really need to read some baseball history. The HoF has set a standard for HoF pitchers and Mussina is on the cusp of that standard. If he wins 20 games this season and wins 300 games he will be a well qualified Hall of Fame pitcher irregardless of what you think the standard should be.



He will because of 300 but he was never a great plater.

That's just YOUR opinion, and a minority opinion at that. I never understood the big difference between 19 wins and 20? It's an artificial distinction that really has no bearing on evaluating a pitcher.

[geezer]

Make it 15 wins for the Moose, as he beat the Rangers 3-0, where he pitched 7 scoreless innings and struck out 6 Rangers in the process. With this victory, Mussina has now 11 15-win seasons, and he is on the verge of probably, his first-ever 20-win season.

[b4uplayball]

Mussina may not get to 300 wins but I think he's going to win 20 this year. It's amazing how he's been counted out by the experts as a second class pitcher. The proof is in the puddin'!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 265
Wins to go: 35
ETA for 300th win: May 2011

Mussina was strong tonight, gave up zero runs and had 6 Ks. :thumbsup:


Yanks' Mussina shackles Rangers for AL-best 15th victory

ARLINGTON, Texas (AP) -- Mike Mussina didn't even throw his best stuff, and he still shut down the most powerful offense in the majors.

The New York Yankees might take that as a sign of things turning around.

Mussina pitched seven sharp innings for his 15th win, and the Yankees beat the Texas Rangers 3-0 on Thursday night to gain a four-game split before starting their next road series against the AL-leading Los Angeles Angels.

Mussina (15-7) threw seven scoreless innings to shut down the highest-scoring offense in the majors. He matched Cleveland's Cliff Lee for most wins in the American League and got his fifth victory in seven starts.

"I didn't have my best stuff today," Mussina said.

Then how did he help the Yankees become just the second team this season to shut out the Rangers?

"I don't know. I just kept going with what I had."

Yankees manager Joe Girardi was more impressed.

"They obviously have a very, very good offensive club," Girardi said, "and Moose shut them down."

The Yankees won for the second consecutive night and moved within three games of idle Boston in the wild-card race, while the Rangers dropped to 3 1/2 games behind New York.

Mariano Rivera pitched a perfect ninth for his career-best 28th consecutive save this season. Derek Jeter had three hits and drove in two runs, including a solo homer in the first.

Behind Mussina's gem, the Yankees joined Minnesota as the only teams to shut out Texas this season. He fanned sluggers Michael Young and Josh Hamilton twice, closed three innings with strikeouts and ended three others on double plays.

The 39-year-old right-hander gave up eight hits, struck out six and stayed unbeaten in his last seven road outings.

"He didn't give us pitches with a whole heck of a lot of the plate," Rangers manager Ron Washington said. "Mike is capable of doing that. He bent but he didn't break."

The Rangers entered the game with a major league-best 651 runs and led in most offensive categories, including hits and extra bases.

But the lineup didn't help Scott Feldman (4-5), who also pitched well but couldn't keep pace with Mussina. He lasted seven innings, allowing seven hits and striking out four.

Johnny Damon had a run-scoring single in the fifth, and Robinson Cano had three hits.

Alex Rodriguez, booed again in his latest return to Texas, went hitless for the fourth straight night and finished the series 0-for-14.

Jeter put the Yankees ahead by connecting on Feldman's second pitch. Jeter served as the designated hitter after Girardi decided his shortstop needed a rest, in part, from the scorching Texas heat.

Jeter's homer would have been all the Yankees needed thanks to Mussina, who threw his second scoreless outing in his last four starts.

"It seems like every time he pitches, people come over and ask, 'How impressive was Moose today?" Jeter said. "He's been our most consistent guy over the course of the year."

The Yankees left town with a 2-2 start to their 10-game road swing. Since coming to Texas on Monday, they have lost pitcher Joba Chamberlain to the 15-day disabled list and had a close call with newly acquired catcher Ivan Rodriguez.

Chamberlain's timetable for a return is murky after he was diagnosed with rotator cuff tendinitis in his right shoulder.

Rodriguez is expected back in the lineup Friday after bruising his right knee in a collision at home plate Wednesday with Rangers outfielder David Murphy. The Texas rookie got the worst of the crash and is expected to miss two to four weeks.

[Bravesfan1984]

You really need to read some baseball history. The HoF has set a standard for HoF pitchers and Mussina is on the cusp of that standard. If he wins 20 games this season and wins 300 games he will be a well qualified Hall of Fame pitcher irregardless of what you think the standard should be.


I understand how they think and I think they are to focused on numbers and not evaluating a players career as a whole.

That's just YOUR opinion, and a minority opinion at that. I never understood the big difference between 19 wins and 20? It's an artificial distinction that really has no bearing on evaluating a pitcher.

In the same way I never understood the difference between 290 and 300

[Honus Wagner Rules]

In the same way I never understood the difference between 290 and 300

There isn't any. It's only in the minds of some of the HoF voters. Does 13 extra wins make Bert Blyleven a more worthy HoF candidate?

[Bravesfan1984]

Even if he wins 20 games this year I still do not see that as enough to get in. David Wells and Oral Hershiser both win 2o games and they are not Hall of Famers?Oral Hershiser won 2o games and had a Cy Young and he is not going to the Hall so I do not see how people can say Mussina is.

[BlueBlood]

Orel: 112 Career ERA+ in 3130 IP
Mussina: 122 Career ERA+ in 3495 IP

Orel: 2014 Ks
Mussina: 2753 Ks

Orel: 1.261 WHIP
Mussina: 1.190 Whip

Orel: 204 Wins
Mussina: 264 Wins

All Orel has in his favor are the fact that he reached a meaningless milestone (20 Wins in a season), has the scoreless innings streak record, and received a Cy Young award.

[Brad Harris]

Even if he wins 20 games this year I still do not see that as enough to get in. David Wells and Oral Hershiser both win 2o games and they are not Hall of Famers?Oral Hershiser won 2o games and had a Cy Young and he is not going to the Hall so I do not see how people can say Mussina is.

You can't see how Mussina is a Hall-of-Fame caliber pitcher because you don't recognize that he was (a) a great pitcher and (b) one of the very best pitchers of his generation.

You seem to have a good handle on what kinds of things the voters look for (i.e. 300 wins) and you obviously understand that simply reaching a certain number does not, in and of itself, make a player Hall-worthy. I think you're just missing the part I mentioned earlier.

The big discrepancy seems to be that a lot of people around here believe Moose has been a legitimately great pitcher for a long time and you don't.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Even if he wins 20 games this year I still do not see that as enough to get in. David Wells and Oral Hershiser both win 2o games and they are not Hall of Famers?Oral Hershiser won 2o games and had a Cy Young and he is not going to the Hall so I do not see how people can say Mussina is.
Mussina will probably end up with about 70 more wins than Wells and 100 more wins than Hershiser. That is significant.

[Bravesfan1984]

You can't see how Mussina is a Hall-of-Fame caliber pitcher because you don't recognize that he was (a) a great pitcher and (b) one of the very best pitchers of his generation.

You seem to have a good handle on what kinds of things the voters look for (i.e. 300 wins) and you obviously understand that simply reaching a certain number does not, in and of itself, make a player Hall-worthy. I think you're just missing the part I mentioned earlier.

The big discrepancy seems to be that a lot of people around here believe Moose has been a legitimately great pitcher for a long time and you don't.


What years was Mussina considered great? i would say maybe one or two years at best. How many pitchers do you count as saying they were the best of there generation. Saying 10 pitchers in a generation were great that means the bar is not set very high.

[Bravesfan1984]

Mussina will probably end up with about 70 more wins than Wells and 100 more wins than Hershiser. That is significant.

You really think that more wins means he is a better pitcher? He has more wins then Pedro Martinez does that make Mussina better?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

You really think that more wins means he is a better pitcher? He has more wins then Pedro Martinez does that make Mussina better?

False dilemma. You were comparing Mussina to Wells and Herheiser. That fact that Mussina will have many more wins than Well and Hersheiser is significant and it does show that Mussina was a far better pitcher than the other two. This is because neither Wells or Heisher have the peak of Pedro Martinez. Martinez's HoF argument is mostly his incredible peak. You have to take everything on a case by case basis. In the case of Mussina vs Wells and Hersheiser his large lead in wins is significant evidence that Mussina is a better pitcher than the two of them. Obviously, Pedro has a better peak than Mussina. However, from age 33 on Mussina is the better pitcher mostly because Pedro broke down in his early 30s.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What years was Mussina considered great? i would say maybe one or two years at best.
Mike was "great" in

1992
1994
1995
1997
1999
2001
2003
2006
2008


You do realize that Mussina has finished in the top 6 in the CYA voting eight timeS and will most likely be in the top four as well in '08.


How many pitchers do you count as saying they were the best of there generation.Saying 10 pitchers in a generation were great that means the bar is not set very high.
Since Mussina reached the majors in 1991 can you name 10 pitchers that were clearly better than Mussina? Let's see there is

Maddux
Clemens
Martinez
Glavine
Johnson

Who should be next on this list?

[Bravesfan1984]

Pitcher better then Mussina
Clemens
Martinez
Glavine
Johnson
Schilling
Smoltz
Rivera

[Bravesfan1984]

False dilemma. You were comparing Mussina to Wells and Herheiser. That fact that Mussina will have many more wins than Well and Hersheiser is significant and it does show that Mussina was a far better pitcher than the other two. This is because neither Wells or Heisher have the peak of Pedro Martinez. Martinez's HoF argument is mostly his incredible peak. You have to take everything on a case by case basis. In the case of Mussina vs Wells and Hersheiser his large lead in wins is significant evidence that Mussina is a better pitcher than the two of them. Obviously, Pedro has a better peak than Mussina. However, from age 33 on Mussina is the better pitcher mostly because Pedro broke down in his early 30s.

No it is not necessarily true it means Mussina stayed injury free longer. Hersheiser had a better peak then Mussina. Hersheiser was in the top 3 Cy Young award 3 times and actually won it where Mussina was in top 3 once. Hersheiser has two things Mussina does not have right now a Cy Young and 20 win season. He also has a lower career era. David Wells is not that far behind Mussina in wins and has a 20 win season. Just using wins as a barometer as how good a player is compared to another is just silly.

[geezer]

But Orel Hershiser, take away his 1988 and 1995 season, was an average pitcher at best compared to Mussina's consistency.

Example:

10-win seasons:

Hershiser: 14
Mussina: 17

15-win seasons:

Hershiser: 6
Mussina: 11

200-strikeouts seasons:

Hershiser: 0
Mussina: 3

Top-10 in Wins seasons:

Hershiser: 6
Mussina: 9

Top 10 in Strikeouts seasons:

Hershiser: 5
Mussina: 10

Top-10 in ERA seasons:

Hershiser: 5
Mussina: 11

Top 10 in Winning Pct.:

Hershiser: 5
Mussina: 6

Gold Gloves:

Hershiser: 1
Mussina: 6

Postseason Appereances:

Hershiser: 6
Mussina: 9

Top-10 in Cy Young Voting seasons:

Hershiser: 3
Mussina: 8 (looking for a ninth)

I think its sad for some people that some pitchers have to win 300 games to convince them they are hall of famers.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Pitcher better then Mussina
Clemens
Martinez
Glavine
Johnson
Schilling
Smoltz
Rivera
Rivera is a reliever so take him out. Smotlz and Schilling are maybes.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

No it is not necessarily true it means Mussina stayed injury free longer. Hersheiser had a better peak then Mussina.
I don't agree. Sure Hershesier's 1988 season is probably better than Mussina's best season but not by much really. A player's peak is more than their best season, Also, whom did Hershieser have to compete with for those Cy Youngs? In 1988 Danny Jackson finished second in the CYA voting! Danny Jackson? During Hersheiser's peak there weren't a lot of HoF caliber pitchers in the NL. Mussina had to contend with Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson for a while.


Hershiser was in the top 3 Cy Young award 3 times and actually won it where Mussina was in top 3 once.
According to BRef Hershiser has only two top-3 CYA finishes, not three. In only four seasons Hershier garnered CYA votes:

1985-3rd
1987-4th
1988-1st
1989-4th

Mussina has done it eight times, and will gain many votes in 2008 as well.

1992-4th
1994-4th
1995-5th
1996-5th
1997-6th
1999-2nd
2000-6th
2001-5th


Hersheiser has two things Mussina does not have right now a Cy Young and 20 win season.
And in about 5-6 weeks Mussina will have his 20 win season.


He also has a lower career era.
Come on, bravesfan. I know you've heard of "context". Hershiser pitch half of his career in the 1980s, a much lower offensive era. Besides Mussina's career ERA+ is 122 and Hershiser's is 112. That's a significant difference. Plus Mussina already has about 400 more IP than Hershiser and that gap will continue to grow.


David Wells is not that far behind Mussina in wins and has a 20 win season.
Mussina has 26 more wins than Wells and the gap will continue to grow. By the time Mussina retired that gap will be about 60-70 wins. That is a lot of wins. And remember, Wells pitched until he was 44 years old.


Just using wins as a barometer as how good a player is compared to another is just silly.[/B]
Then why do you use it, then? In you previous post you mentioned that Well and Hershier have 20 win seasons and Mussina doesn't. What is going to be your argument when Mussina gets his 20th win in a few weeks?

[Zagi-CRO]

Rank Player (age) Wins
9 Greg Maddux*(42) 353
21 Tom Glavine**(42) 305
25 Randy Johnson**(44) 293
38 Mike Mussina*(39) 265
53 Jamie Moyer**(45) 240


Mussina has a chance reaching 300-mark.
Randy Johnson, too.
Jaime Moyer, IMO, without any chance.

[geezer]

35 wins shy of 300 and 241 strikeouts shy of 3,000, it can happen.

[hudsonharden]

Mike lost a potential win tonight due to Mariano Rivera's blown save. Unlucky breaks like that will make it harder and harder to get to his mark.

[Brad Harris]

Leaves after seven innings and Marte/Rivera blow a 3-run lead? Moose wasn't unlucky, he was friggin assassinated by his bullpen!

[lyrical]

34 more to go. :D Mussina's earliest date to 16 wins since the strike year.

[MudvilleMike]

False dilemma. You were comparing Mussina to Wells and Herheiser. That fact that Mussina will have many more wins than Well and Hersheiser is significant and it does show that Mussina was a far better pitcher than the other two.

I hapeen to think both Orel and Mussina belong in the HOF, but it's ridiculous to claim one is "a far better" pitcher than the other. Both are borderline HOFers.

[Brad Harris]

I hapeen to think both Orel and Mussina belong in the HOF, but it's ridiculous to claim one is "a far better" pitcher than the other. Both are borderline HOFers.

Maybe not far better, but I think Mussina is substantially better than Hershiser. Take out his '88 season and Hershiser has a 181-143 (.560) career record, no 20 win seasons, no Cy Young Award, and 1,836 career strikeouts. If you take away Mussina's best season, how different does his career numbers really look? Not nearly as precipitous a drop.

Changing nothing, in Hershiser you have a pitcher who played 18 years in the big leagues but only had better than a 107 ERA+ in seven of those seasons! He only received a vote for Cy Young consideration in four of those years.

Moose, on the other hand, has twelve seasons of 125 or better ERA+, is closing on 1,000 strikeouts more than Hershiser, received Cy Young votes in twice as many seasons (including a 2nd-place finish one year) and has 61 more wins with a .061 increase in winning percentage!

The two aren't really similar all that similar in value at all.

[Bravesfan1984]

Mike was "great" in

1992
1994
1995
1997
1999
2001
2003
2006
2008

Only in 92 did he have an era less then 3.oo

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I hapeen to think both Orel and Mussina belong in the HOF, but it's ridiculous to claim one is "a far better" pitcher than the other. Both are borderline HOFers.

Why is it ridiculous? Just asserting it doesn't make it so. If you are going to discuss such things then at least try to put some effort into it.


I forgot to add this. (Added 09/02/08)
____________________________________
Win total: 266
Wins to go: 34
ETA for 300th win: May 2011


Moose wins his 16th game! :thumbsup:

Yankees rout Royals to split season series


NEW YORK (AP) -- Mike Mussina kept turning around to see poorly hit balls find holes in the Yankees' defense, his body language conveying just a touch of exasperation. By the time he walked off the mound after the first inning, Kansas City had a three-run lead.

"His luck wasn't real good in the first," manager Joe Girardi said, "but it changed after that."

Helps when your offense wipes out the deficit -- and then some -- in a hurry.

Jason Giambi hit a grand slam, Alex Rodriguez sent a three-run homer bouncing into Monument Park and New York broke loose against Brian Bannister and the Royals in a 15-6 rout Sunday that salvaged a split of the season series.

Cody Ransom added a two-run homer and Xavier Nady also went deep for the Yankees, who totaled six runs in the previous two games but got that many in the first inning alone. Rodriguez finished 3-for-3 with five RBIs, and Derek Jeter went 4-for-4 and scored three times.

"They got out to a three-run lead and we had a real good first inning," Rodriguez said. "That's really the key to our offense."

Mussina (16-7) settled down after the shaky start, retiring his last 14 batters and improving to 6-0 against teams from the AL Central. It was win No. 266 for the right-hander, tying him with Bob Feller and Eppa Rixey for 34th on the career list.

Despite winning at least 15 games 11 times, Mussina has never been a 20-game winner -- something he could certainly accomplish if the Yankees get on a roll.

"That's probably the fourth time I've given up a couple in the first inning and we came back," he said, praising the offense rather than himself. "I don't want to try that too much."

Ross Gload hit a two-run homer and Billy Butler had a two-run double for the Royals, who wasted two chances over the weekend to win their first season series against New York since 1999. Instead, they've lost nine of 11 after a modest three-game winning streak.

The Yankees (66-58) closed within five games of Boston for the AL wild-card spot. They open a six-game trip Tuesday at Toronto, and will play 22 of their final 38 on the road -- all but 10 of those games against teams with winning records.

"We have our backs up against the wall and every game is very important," Rodriguez said. "You've got to take it like it's the last week of September."

A-Rod struck the first big blow, a drive to left that bounded off the concrete beyond the wall and rattled around like a pinball among the stone monuments. His 28th home run tied the game at 3, but a miserable afternoon was only beginning for Bannister.

The right-hander served up a 1-1 pitch to Nady moments later that he drove off the foul pole in right. After a visit to the mound by pitching coach Bob McClure, Robinson Cano singled, Jose Molina hit a run-scoring double and speedy youngster Brett Gardner -- who had the winning hit in the 13th inning Saturday -- tripled for a 6-3 lead.

"I knew right away it was going to be tough," said Bannister, who didn't manage another out after retiring Johnny Damon to end the first inning. "Missed over the plate and every time it hurt me."

Jeter singled and Bobby Abreu and A-Rod each walked to load the bases in the second for Giambi, who hit his second grand slam of the season into the appreciative Bleacher Creatures in right.

Nady followed with an infield hit and Cano a double down the line, finally chasing Bannister (7-12) after one of the worst starts of his career.

"Just a lack of command and control," Royals manager Trey Hillman said, "and probably at this point confidence."

Rodriguez added a run-scoring single in the third, and Abreu and A-Rod each drove in runs in the seventh before Ransom's fourth career homer into the left-field seats.

Bannister wound up allowing 13 of the 16 batters he faced to reach safely, on 10 hits and three walks, and the 10 runs he yielded were a career high. His ERA in four starts against New York ballooned to 15.07, and he's allowed 30 hits and six homers in just 14 1-3 innings.

"Since I was a little kid, I wanted to pitch in this ballpark, and it hasn't been that nice to me in return," he said. "It kind of leaves a bitter taste in your mouth."

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Mike was "great" in

1992
1994
1995
1997
1999
2001
2003
2006
2008

Only in 92 did he have an era less then 3.oo

And and your point is? :shrug:

[MudvilleMike]

Maybe not far better, but I think Mussina is substantially better than Hershiser. Take out his '88 season and Hershiser has a 181-143 (.560) career record, no 20 win seasons, no Cy Young Award, and 1,836 career strikeouts. If you take away Mussina's best season, how different does his career numbers really look? Not nearly as precipitous a drop.



I guess I don't live in the parallel universe where Hershiser didn't have a record-breaking season, win the Cy Young and lead his team to the World Championship winning the NLCS MVP and World Series MVP. In that universe Mussina could be described as "substantially" better.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I guess I don't live in the parallel universe where Hershiser didn't have a record-breaking season, win the Cy Young and lead his team to the World Championship winning the NLCS MVP and World Series MVP. In that universe Mussina could be described as "substantially" better.

Yes, we all know Hershiser had a wondrous 1988 season. However, if we look at the entire careers of Mussina and Hershiser who had the better career. HoF merit is determined by a player's career not their single best season. For Hershier's one great season he had several mediocre and poor season to more than ofset his one great year. Mussina has had the substantially better career.

[MudvilleMike]

Come on, bravesfan. I know you've heard of "context". Hershiser pitch half of his career in the 1980s, a much lower offensive era. Besides Mussina's career ERA+ is 122 and Hershiser's is 112. That's a significant difference.


There is a greater variation in a high-scoring era. For example, top pitchers in the 90s and 00s have higher ERA+s than top pitchers in the 70s and 80s. That doesn't explain the entire 10 point difference, but comparing ERA+s across eras is problematic.

[Bravesfan1984]

And and your point is? :shrug:

I have a hard time calling it a great year when you give up 3 or more runs a game. This means one of the main reasons he won was he had a lot of help.

[Brad Harris]

I guess I don't live in the parallel universe where Hershiser didn't have a record-breaking season, win the Cy Young and lead his team to the World Championship winning the NLCS MVP and World Series MVP. In that universe Mussina could be described as "substantially" better.
You don't need to. Moose is the better pitcher in any universe. I was just making the argument that any pitcher who's going to hang his entire case on a single season isn't going to measure up.

I don't have the win shares numbers in front of me at the moment, but here's what WARP3 says about the two:

Best Season
10.5 Mussina
9.9 Hershiser

Best Two Seasons
20.1 Mussina
19.4 Hershiser

Best Three Seasons
29.7 Mussina
28.3 Hershiser

Best Four Seasons
39.3 Mussina
36.0 Hershiser

Best Five Seasons
48.6 Mussina
42.6 Hershiser

Best Six Seasons
57.5 Mussina
48.7 Hershiser

Best Seven Seasons
65.6 Mussina
54.8 Hershiser

Best Eight Seasons
73.6 Mussina
60.0 Hershiser

Best Nine Seasons
81.5 Mussina
65.1 Hershiser

Best Ten Seasons
89.2 Mussina
69.9 Hershiser

Best Eleven Seasons
96.7 Mussina
73.9 Hershiser

Best Twelve Seasons
104.1 Mussina
77.1 Hershiser

Best Thirteen Seasons
110.7 Mussina
80.2 Hershiser

Best Fourteen Seasons
115.6 Mussina
83.1 Hershiser

Best Fifteen Seasons
120.3 Mussina
85.7 Hershiser

Best Sixteen Seasons
124.7 Mussina
86.0 Hershiser

Best Seventeen Seasons
128.3 Mussina
86.0 Hershiser

Best Eighteen Seasons
131.4 Mussina
84.1 Hershiser

That's not remotely close, with or without 1988.

[Brad Harris]

I just ran the numbers for win shares and it shows Hershiser and Mussina back-and-forth, neck-and-neck throughout their eight best seasons, with neither ever having more than a 7 win share advantage over the other. The ends there, however. In his not-yet-completed eighteenth season (which is precisely how many Hershiser had), Mussina sports a significant 57 win share lead over Orel.

Moose sports a substantial margin of additional value over Hershiser.

[STLCards2]

I have a hard time calling it a great year when you give up 3 or more runs a game. This means one of the main reasons he won was he had a lot of help.

In 1968, the Cincinatti Reds, with George Culver, a washed-up Jim Maloney, Gary Nolan,some other guy named Gerry, and Tony Clonginger had the worst ERA in the NL with a 3.56 mark.

In 2001, the Atlanta Braves (Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Kevin Milwood) led the NL with a 3.59 ERA.

Which ERA is better? Which team had better pitching? Surely individual principals work on team levels, no?

Do you honestly believe that every single pitching staff in 1968 was better than every single staff in 2001 - even ones with 3 HOFers in their primes (Smoltz was in the pen).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I looked at Hershiser's 1988 season. Contrary to what some may remember it wasn't a sublme season from day one. As late as August 14, Hershiser was 16-7 with a 3.06 ERA. Now, that's a fine season but hardly anything historic. In mid August Hershiser was one of several Cy Young candidates. Danny Jackson and David Cone finished second and third, respectively, in the '88 CYA voting. Their records through late-August were:

18-5, 2.43 ERA (thru 8/22) Jackson
13-3, 2.43 ERA (thru 8/23) Cone
17-8, 2.88 ERA (thru 8/24) Hershiser

At this point Hershiser was one of three main CYA candidates and not the #1 candidate at this point. Hershiser's great '88 season really rests on five weeks of brilliant pitching. Hershiser didn't even the lead the NL in ERA. David Cone did. Cone had a better ERA, far more strikeouts, and five fewer losses, plus he also won 20 games.

[Brad Harris]

At this point Hershiser was one of three main CYA candidates and not the #1 candidate at this point. Hershiser's great '88 season really rests on five weeks of brilliant pitching. Hershiser didn't even the lead the NL in ERA. David Cone did. Cone had a better ERA, far more strikeouts, and five fewer losses, plus he also won 20 games.

Without the streak, Hershiser prolly wouldn't have won the award. Of course, that was another case where the playoff results may have influenced the voting, too. Then there was Hershiser's manager and his incessant cheerleading on the subject, too.

[PVNICK]

I thought the votes were done before the playoffs or is that just a myth?

[NYMets523]

They are. They aren't revealed until after though.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Can we please keep the HOF discussions to the HOF forum? This is about Mussina and his likelihood of reaching 300 wins, not whether or not his HOF-qualifications can be dismissed due to an extremely subjective and ever-changing methodology.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Without the streak, Hershiser prolly wouldn't have won the award. Of course, that was another case where the playoff results may have influenced the voting, too. Then there was Hershiser's manager and his incessant cheerleading on the subject, too.

I thought he CYA voting is done before the playoffs start? The scoreless streak basically won the CYA for Hershiser.

[Brad Harris]

I thought he CYA voting is done before the playoffs start? The scoreless streak basically won the CYA for Hershiser.

It is. I was being facetious.

[hudsonharden]

A nice pitching performance by Mussina tonight, but it ended in a no-decision. Like I said before, at his age, Mike Mussina needs every break he can get if he wants a shot at 300 wins. His good performances need to earn him points in the W column.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

From ESPN.com




Moose moving closer to upstate New York

By Jonah Keri, Special to ESPN.com
Saturday, August 23, 2008

Everyone from stat-literate writers like Rob Neyer to members of the blogosphere to the mainstream media agrees: If Mike Mussina wins four more games this season, he's punched his ticket to the Hall of Fame.

This unanimous sentiment comes with Mussina sitting on 16 wins. If Moose can get to 20 wins in a season for the first time in his career, the thought goes, it will legitimize all of his other accomplishments and make up for all the near-misses that, for some, have defined his career. Unfortunately for Mussina, he drew a no-decision against the Orioles on Friday night. That leaves him with just seven more starts this season, many of those coming against tough opponents. There's a very real chance that Mussina will get to 18 or 19 wins this season, only to fall short of the magic number 20 yet again.

All of which raises one question: Why should we care?

Mussina deserves to be a Hall of Famer, even if he never wins 20 games in a season, or 300 in his career for that matter.

If you insist on using wins as a barometer, you could argue that only six pitchers in major league history have as many wins as Mussina, with a higher winning percentage: Hall of Famers Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Grover Cleveland Alexander and Jim Palmer, and Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson, two of the 10 best pitchers of all time. If you're into fancier analysis, you could point to the Gray Ink, Hall of Fame Standards and Hall of Fame Monitor tests, all of which show Mussina with more than enough credentials to surpass the average player already enshrined in Cooperstown.

But the argument over Mussina's candidacy based on his (in)ability to win 20 games in a season raises a bigger issue: Baseball's media and fans (mostly the media) butcher the numbers in their attempts to evaluate a player's accomplishments, or his overall worth.

You can break down the most common misuses of numbers into five kinds of problems:

1. The context problem

Most commonly used baseball numbers are nearly meaningless unless you know the context in which they were achieved. For instance, a 40-home run season in San Diego is far more impressive than a 40-homer campaign in Colorado. Likewise, a catcher who hits 20 homers a year can become a Hall of Famer; a first baseman who hits 20 homers a year is barely doing his job. A pitcher who accumulates a ton of saves is probably benefiting, above all, from playing on a team that gives him lots of save chances. A 20-win season requires a lot of help from a pitcher's teammates; it's probably not happening without ample run support from the offense, defensive support from the eight other players on the field and support from a strong bullpen.

Even the biggest Luddites have some inkling that different ballparks affect offense in different ways, that a closer needs opportunities to rack up saves, that the position a player plays matters in assessing his value, and that using wins to evaluate a pitcher's performance means relying heavily on the contributions of his teammates. But somehow when it comes time to vote for awards or for the Hall of Fame, or to simply have an intelligent discussion about a player's ability, these points often get lost.

2. The time frame problem

When it comes to evaluating a player's numbers, 2008 is not 1988, and neither of those years is anything like 1968. Take the argument that a pitcher needs to win 20 games in a season, and/or 300 in a career, to be Hall-worthy. Those benchmarks are much more difficult to reach in today's game than they were in generations past.

For instance, Don Sutton started his career in 1966. In that era, pitchers toiled in four-man rotations, meaning 40-start seasons were not uncommon. The strike zone was much bigger and most lineups featured multiple banjo hitters, with middle infielders more closely resembling Mark Belanger than Chase Utley. That, in turn, meant that a starting pitcher could go deeper into each game. More starts and more innings per start, with a strike zone almost twice as big and a wide array of Punch 'n' Judy hitters striding to the plate. Is it any wonder that 20-win seasons were so much more common in Sutton's time than they are now, or that a player with Sutton's good-but-not-great talent level could win 324 games, while better pitchers in today's game often fall well short of the 300 mark?

In breaking down the Hall of Fame chances of a player from the current era, you have to take time frame into account. Insisting that a pitcher win 300 games in his career to be a Hall candidate is being excessively demanding. On the flip side, hitting 500 career homers in today's game shouldn't warrant automatic Cooperstown induction, given how many hitters have turned the trick in the past decade or two. To give you an idea of how much the game has changed, consider that the following players from the past 20 years have finished or should finish with more than 600 home runs: Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez, with Albert Pujols a good bet at his current production rate, too. Before this era, only three players in major league history had ever hit 600 homers.

3. The Base 10 problem

Baseball writers constantly overstate the importance of multiples of 10, obsessing over 20 wins in a season, or 300 wins, 500 homers or 3,000 hits in a career -- as if 19, 299, 499 or 2,999 are vastly inferior totals. Maybe it's tough to blame them, considering that we all do this in our everyday lives. That's why cars will sell for $19,999 and books for $19.99: It's ridiculous to think that a buck less than $20,000 or a penny less than 20 bucks should make a difference to a shopper's psychology, but it does.

Mussina won 19 games two years in a row, in 1995 and 1996. Yet somehow the impact of those seasons is diminished because he couldn't get to a multiple of 10. It's doubly ridiculous when you combine the Base 10 problem with the context problem. On Sept. 28, 1996, Mussina threw eight terrific innings against the Blue Jays, allowing just four hits, two walks and one run, while striking out nine. Armando Benitez entered the game in the ninth and promptly squandered the Orioles' one-run lead. Baltimore went on to win the game 3-2 in 10 innings. But because of Benitez's lousy performance, Mussina didn't get the win -- the one that would have been his 20th of the year.

Really? Mussina doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame because of Armando Benitez?

4. The aesthetics problem

It's easy to hold a strong bias against strikeouts. When a hitter whiffs, it brings up all the bad memories of our Little League failures, when we couldn't even make contact against the Danny Almontes who made us look foolish at the plate. Strikeouts just look bad, at all levels of the game. A hitter who strikes out a lot, then, tends to be rough on the eyes. We can only conclude that such a player isn't a good hitter.

Once you get past the ugly aesthetics, though, strikeouts aren't nearly as damaging as they might appear. Study after study on the topic of strikeouts shows that they're virtually the same as any other out. Sure, you can't advance a runner the way you can with a well-placed groundout or flyout. But you can't hit into a double play, either.

Still, when we see Adam Dunn strike out 190 times in a season and hit below .240, it's easy to get irrational and conclude that he's not a good hitter or a valuable offensive player, and the Diamondbacks didn't help themselves much in trading for him this summer.

Here's the thing: Dunn's actually one of the most valuable offensive players in the game. Has been for years. In fact, Dunn has an excellent chance to bag his fifth straight season of 40 homers and 100 walks. Only one other player in the history of the game has accomplished that feat. His name is Barry Bonds.

5. The underrated problem

Dunn gets nicked by this problem too. Even though "Moneyball" sold a zillion copies, even though announcers praise lineups that wear down opposing pitchers by going deep into counts and drawing walks, and even though you can now find on-base percentage on virtually every major league scoreboard, we rarely hear talk of the walks leaderboard, or to steal from the Base 10 playbook, how Player X is on pace for his first (or in Dunn's case, his sixth) 100-walk season.

The walk isn't the only stat that is underappreciated by the masses. Both Ian Kinsler (before his injury) and Brian Roberts rank among the most productive offensive players in the American League this season. But neither player has gotten much in the way of MVP love. Much of that is due to Kinsler and Roberts having lousy teammates, depressing the records of the Rangers and Orioles, respectively, and making them MVP afterthoughts (another ridiculous premise, but we'll save that for another time). But another factor working against the two second basemen is the area of the game in which they excel. Roberts and Kinsler rank 1-2 in the AL in doubles, Roberts with 45, Kinsler with 41. But other than the usual early-season noise that makes people mention some guy named Earl Webb, who talks about doubles? Triple Crown stats still get most of the attention, leaving the valuable contributions of great players like Kinsler and Roberts in the dust -- unfairly so.

As much progress as we've made as fans, and as much as the baseball media have improved their understanding of the game in the "Moneyball" era, we still have a long way to go. Forget VORP, FIP, WPA and UZR. Learning how to interpret the most basic stats will go a long way toward improving our understanding of the game.

Then maybe seven or eight years from now, we can all drive to upstate New York to see the Moose take his rightful place among the game's immortals.

Jonah Keri is a regular contributor to Page 2 and the editor and co-author of "Baseball Between the Numbers." You can contact him here.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Rats, Mussina pitched well again, 7 innings, 2 ER, 6 K, 2 BB, 5 H but got a no decision. All of a sudden 20 wins is not such a sure thing! :rolleyes:

[Bravesfan1984]

How many more starts does he have?

[BlueBlood]

The Yankees have played 137 games which leaves 25 on the schedule. Mussina could land between 5-6 more starts, maybe 7 on three days' rest at the end of the season. He's at 16 wins but taking home four against the tough competition they have facing them through the end of the season...

[lyrical]

Beats Tampa for #267. :highfive:

[geezer]

17 wins for the season, 3 more for his first-ever 20-win season, go Moose!!!!!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 267
Wins to go: 33
ETA for 300th win: May 2011

Moose beats the Rays on the road with a solid 7-2 win. :thumbsup:


Nady backs Mussina's solid effort to extend Yanks' playoff hopes

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. -- Mike Mussina earned his 17th win, and the New York Yankees got home runs from Alex Rodriguez and Xavier Nady in a 7-2 victory over the Tampa Bay Rays on Tuesday night.

Joba Chamberlain came off the disabled list for New York and pitched 1 1/3 scoreless innings out of the bullpen. Tampa Bay's lead in the AL East was trimmed to four games over Boston, which beat Baltimore 14-2.

Seeking his first 20-win season, the 39-year-old Mussina (17-7) allowed two runs and 10 hits in six-plus innings. He matched a season high with eight strikeouts, improving to 3-0 against the Rays. He also beat the AL East leaders on April 7 and May 14, and his 19 career wins tie him with Tim Wakefield for the most by any pitcher against Tampa Bay.

Nady hit a two-run homer off Matt Garza (11-8) for the third-place Yankees, clinging to slim playoff chances. New York has won 10 of 16.

Rodriguez hit home run No. 548, tying Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt for 12th place on the career list. The eighth-inning solo shot off Jason Hammel was his 30th of the year, giving A-Rod 11 seasons with 30 or more.

Chamberlain made a strong return from the DL. He entered with runners on first and third with two outs in the seventh inning and needed just one pitch to get out of the jam.

The right-hander was placed on the disabled list with right rotator cuff tendinitis on Aug. 6, two days after he left a start against Texas with shoulder soreness. The Yankees expect him to work out of the bullpen the rest of the season.

Mussina, 19-7 lifetime against Tampa Bay, gave up an RBI single to Cliff Floyd in the third and left after Gabe Gross and Shawn Riggans opened the seventh with consecutive doubles to trim New York's lead to 6-2.

Akinori Iwamura followed with a single, putting runners at the corners with no outs, but the Yankees' bullpen didn't allow any more damage.

Damaso Marte struck out B.J. Upton and Carlos Pena. Chamberlain entered to a standing ovation from Yankees fans among the crowd of 21,629 and got pinch-hitter Rocco Baldelli to ground into a force play on a 96 mph fastball.

Chamberlain allowed one hit and walked one in 1 1/3 innings. Dan Giese, also activated from the DL on Tuesday, worked the ninth in a non-save situation.

The Rays, who had won five in a row, are beginning a stretch of 19 consecutive games against clubs in playoff contention, including six against Boston and five more against the Yankees -- one of just two AL teams with winning records against Tampa Bay this season.

The Rays threatened against Mussina in the second and fourth, but didn't score either time.

The first two batters reached base in the second, but Willy Aybar was thrown out at the plate after Eric Hinske doubled to left, barreled around second base and went to third, unaware that Aybar had stopped there.

Hinske and Jason Bartlett singled in the fourth before the Yankees turned a double play and Riggans grounded out to end the inning.

Johnny Damon, Jason Giambi and Hideki Matsui all drove in one run apiece against Garza, who yielded six runs and five hits in five-plus innings. The right-hander had allowed four runs combined in his previous three starts.

[Bravesfan1984]

The Yankees have played 137 games which leaves 25 on the schedule. Mussina could land between 5-6 more starts, maybe 7 on three days' rest at the end of the season. He's at 16 wins but taking home four against the tough competition they have facing them through the end of the season...

Seems with 17 wins he will get there unless he just falls apart.

[Brad Harris]

The Yankees have played 137 games which leaves 25 on the schedule. Mussina could land between 5-6 more starts, maybe 7 on three days' rest at the end of the season. He's at 16 wins but taking home four against the tough competition they have facing them through the end of the season...

Seems with 17 wins he will get there unless he just falls apart.

Mussina has 4 or 5 starts remaining, depending on whether he's pitched every fifth day or every fifth game. Assuming he goes every fifth day, here's his remaining starts:

Sunday, Sept 8 vs. Mariners at Safeco Field
Friday, Sept 12 vs. Rays at Yankee Stadium
Wednesday, Sept 18 vs. White Sox at Yankee Stadium
Tuesday, Sept 24 vs. Blue Jays at Rogers Centre
Sunday, Sept 29 vs. Red Sox at Fenway Park (final game of season)

Depending on his run support and the bullpen's performance, this could well go down to the wire for Moose. For his sake, I hope not.

[Brad Harris]

Moose was beat Sunday. He's now got four starts in which to win three games. Not looking good.

[lyrical]

Finally, 268! Moose got a really great ovation from the crowd in his last start at Yankee Stadium.

[geezer]

Come on Moose, You can do it!!!

2 more wins, that's all!!!

[BenHertz]

If the Yankees skip Phil Hughes' start in the rotation on the 23rd (at Toronto), Mussina could pitch on the regular 4 days rest. Then he could pitch in the season finale on the 28th (at Boston).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 268
Wins to go: 32
ETA for 300th win: May 2011

Moose get's #18! :thumbsup:


Yankees blast struggling White Sox as Mussina wins 18th, Abreu drives in six

NEW YORK -- Mike Mussina and Bobby Abreu gave the New York Yankees the kind of sharp game the Chicago White Sox needed.


Abreu homered twice and drove in six runs, Mussina kept up his hopes for a 20-win season and the Yankees drubbed the AL Central-leading White Sox 9-2 Thursday night.

The White Sox have lost seven of 11 and their AL Central lead was cut to 1 1/2 games over second-place Minnesota, which rallied to win 11-8 at Tampa Bay.

"We don't have anything going forward right now," White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said. "We can't play like that. It's going to be tough for us to compete."

Guillen noted before the game that several teams in playoff races were struggling. His club stumbled again heading into a weekend series at Kansas City.

Javier Vazquez (12-14) was ragged on three days' rest, and second baseman Alexi Ramirez let a grounder skip through his legs as the Yankees made it 7-1 in the fourth inning. Midway through the sixth, Ken Griffey Jr. and more than half of Chicago's starters had been pulled.

"I think we're missing something. I don't know what it is. Hopefully, we can get it back," White Sox shortstop Orlando Cabrera said.

Guillen wants to rely on his best pitchers down the stretch, and Vazquez made his first outing on short rest since 2004 -- he's 0-3 in such starts. The White Sox lost three of four in New York, and Guillen called the series "horrible."

The Yankees are almost sure to miss the postseason for the first time since starting their run in 1995. The feel is certainly different at Yankee Stadium -- Derek Jeter went over to a group of White Sox during batting practice and wished them well, should they reach October.

With only three games left before their ballpark closes, the Yankees would like to avoid being eliminated at home. New York also pulled some of its starters early, including Alex Rodriguez and his newly dyed blond locks, and won for the fifth time in six games.

"It was an example of how we could've played all year," Mussina said.

Mussina (18-9) earned his 268th win, tying Hall of Famer Jim Palmer for 33rd on the career list. He gave up one run and five hits in six-plus innings, and still has a chance for his first career 20-win season with starts left at Toronto and Boston.

"The last ones are always the tough ones," he said.

Mussina waved his cap as he left the mound after Brian Anderson's leadoff double in the seventh. The crowd of 53,152 gave him a nice ovation.

"I won the last game I pitched at Yankee Stadium. It was worth tipping my hat," he said.

Abreu picked on a familiar victim, hitting an upper-deck shot to right and another long drive off Vazquez. Abreu has nine home runs in 71 at-bats against the White Sox righty -- the Yankees star has more career homers and at-bats off Vazquez than any player in the majors.

"I feel very comfortable against him," Abreu said.

Abreu also had a two-run single on the first pitch from Horacio Ramirez and an RBI grounder. Paul Konerko hit a solo home run for the White Sox.

[Brad Harris]

zomg....ze suspense....she iz killing me!

[lyrical]

Moose also confirmed he would like to pitch next season (not that I really thought he could seriously walk away after a great year), but it's nice to have word from the man himself, so the chase for 300 remains on:
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/Moose_has_20-20_vision.html

"I don't know if I can throw out 18 wins again next year, but I'd sure like to take a shot at it somewhere, and hopefully these guys will give me a chance," Mussina said, after posting his 18th victory in the Yankees' 9-2 win.

Mussina hadn't won 18 games since 2002. He's never won 20 games in a season, but he'll get two more starts — Tuesday at Toronto and the regular-season finale at Boston.

"It's been a fun year for me," said Mussina, who briefly was bounced from the rotation late last year, in a season riddled by nagging injuries. Earlier this year, when he struggled against Boston, co-chairman Hank Steinbrenner openly suggested that Mussina "learn to pitch more like Jamie Moyer," the ancient Phillies' lefty.

Now, the Yankees could be writing Mussina a check in excess of the $11 million he made this year, in the final year of a two-year deal.

"I think everybody knows I'm not going to go to Texas or California to pitch," Mussina said. So, if the Yankees asked him back in 2009, "that'd be a simple answer."

[geezer]

And also he has 196 strikeouts shy of 3,000.

[lyrical]

269. 19 on the season with one start left on the last day.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 269
Wins to go: 31
ETA for 300th win: May 2011


Moose gets win #19! :thumbsup:

Mussina within one of first 20-win season but Yanks eliminated from playoffs

TORONTO -- The New York Yankees will miss the postseason for the first time since starting their run in 1995.


Mike Mussina pitched five shutout innings to earn his 19th win, Jason Giambi homered and the Yankees beat the Toronto Blue Jays 3-1 on Tuesday night.

It wasn't enough to keep New York's slim postseason hopes alive as Boston beat Cleveland 5-4 minutes before the Yankees win. The Red Sox win clinched at least the AL wild-card and eliminated the Yankees from postseason contention.

Mussina (19-9), who also won 19 games with Baltimore in 1995 and 1996, will try for a career-high 20th victory when he faces Boston at Fenway Park on Sunday in the final game of the regular season.

New York shortstop Derek Jeter didn't start because of a sore left hand, but came on as a defensive replacement in the ninth inning. This will be the first October that Jeter and the Yankees missed the playoffs in 13 years -- a remarkable run, which included four World Series titles.

With his 269th career victory, Mussina moved past Jim Palmer into 33rd place on baseball's career list. Mussina has the most wins of any pitcher never to have a 20-win season.

The right-hander allowed four hits, walked none and struck out six.

Marco Scutaro hit a one-out double off Mussina in the first, but was thrown out trying to stretch the hit into a triple.

Mussina was struck on the right elbow by Travis Snider's line drive single in the third, with the ball ricocheting into foul territory between home plate and third base. Trainer Gene Monahan and manager Joe Girardi came out to check on Mussina, who declared himself fine after two practice pitches, then ended the inning with a 4-6-3 double play.

Mariano Rivera worked the ninth for his 38th save in 39 opportunities.

Blue Jays right-hander Jesse Litsch (12-9) allowed three runs and five hits in seven innings. He walked one and struck out a career-high eight.

New York opened the scoring in the second when Giambi singled, went to third on Xavier Nady's double and scored on Robinson Cano's grounder.

Giambi hit a one-out solo drive to right center in the fourth, his 32nd.

The Yankees made it 3-0 in the seventh when Cano doubled, took third on a wild pitch and scored on Gregg Zaun's passed ball.

Toronto scored a run in the seventh on Scott Rolen's RBI single, but Joba Chamberlain ended the threat by striking out Gregg Zaun and Snider

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Win total: 270
Wins to go: 30
ETA for 300th win: May 2011

Moose wins his 20th! AWESOME! :thumbsup:


Yanks upend BoSox as Mussina wins 20 games for first time in 18-year career

ESPN.com
09/28/2008

BOSTON -- Mike Mussina became the oldest pitcher to win 20 games in a season for the first time, reaching the milestone on the final day of the season Sunday as the New York Yankees beat the Boston Red Sox 6-2 in a day-night doubleheader opener.

The 39-year-old Mussina (20-9), finishing his 18th major league season, allowed three hits in six shutout innings.

"It's been a long time," Mussina said. "I've been close."

Previously, the oldest first-time 20-game winner was Jamie Moyer, who was 38 when he went 20-6 for Seattle in 2001. Mussina, who hasn't committed to playing next season, could be the first pitcher to retire following a 20-win season since Sandy Koufax.

"I really don't know," Mussina said when asked whether that was his final game. "If it is, it's kind of a nice way to go."

Mussina won his final three starts, allowing one run over 16 innings. His previous high for wins came in 1995 and 1996, when he won 19 games each year for Baltimore. Mussina went 0-2 in his last four starts in 1996, leaving his final one with a 2-1 lead after eight innings only to watch Armando Benitez allow a tying homer to Toronto's Ed Sprague in the ninth.

After Boston closed to 3-2 in the eighth on Chris Carter's RBI grounder off Joba Chamberlain and Jacoby Ellsbury's run-scoring single against Damaso Marte, Rivera struck out Dustin Pedroia to end the inning. After the Yankees added three runs in the ninth against Jonathan Papelbon, Rivera finished with a hitless ninth for his 39th save in 40 chances.

Rivera returned from tests in New York and may have arthroscopic shoulder surgery.

"Joe told me a couple days ago he'd have everybody ready, and I guess that means Mo in the eighth," Mussina said, referring to manager Joe Girardi. "I know he's not feeling 100 percent but he's still throwing the ball great. I'm glad he came back from New York."

Pedroia went 2-for-4 to increase his batting average to .326 and needed a big second game to win the AL batting title over Minnesota's Joe Mauer, who was at .330.

With Boston heading to the playoffs to defend its World Series title and New York missing them for the first time since 1993, the rain-delayed game lacked the usual intensity of Yankees-Red Sox matchups.

"We wish we would still be playing next week," Mussina said.

In a pregame ceremony, Johnny Pesky's No. 6 was retired by the Red Sox as the 89-year-old former shortstop stood under an umbrella at home plate wearing the team's white home uniform with his number on the back. The other five numbers retired by the team are Bobby Doerr (1), Joe Cronin (4), Carl Yastrzemski (8), Ted Williams (9) and Carlton Fisk (27).

Xavier Nady hit a three-run homer in the fifth off Daisuke Matsuzaka (18-3), who lost for the first time in eight decisions since July 28.

[geezer]

I just hope he is aiming for 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts, its still early.

[BlueBlood]

Looks like the Hall of Fame will have to wait a little longer to add a starter that didn't win 20 games.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Rats! Moose might be retiring. Say it ain't so, Mike, say it ain't so. :dismay:


Martinez, Mussina Exits May Mark End of an Era

By STEVEN GOLDMAN
NY Sun
September 30, 2008

It's the end of an era in New York. Forget the dual destruction of two long-standing baseball edifices in Yankee Stadium and Shea Stadium; the end of the season may also have brought a conclusion to the careers of two fin de siècle pitching greats, Mike Mussina of the Yankees and Pedro Martinez of the Mets. Mussina has indicated that he might retire, while Martinez has not made his future plans known.

"Fin de siècle" refers, in this case, to the end of the 20th century, but given the current news, it might be more appropriate to describe Mussina and Martinez as pitchers who bestrode the Era of Two Bubbles — technology and housing. To paraphrase Mark Twain and say that they came with the bubble and they go out with the bubble: "The Almighty has said, no doubt: 'Now here are these two unaccountable freaks; they came in together, they must go out together.'"

Mussina reached the majors in 1991. Martinez received a cup of coffee the following year. Both excelled in their first full seasons, though Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda, in his dotage, put Martinez in the bullpen for a season before trading him for Delino DeShields, one of the worst swaps of all time. Simultaneously, Mussina was going 18-5 with a 2.54 ERA for the 1992 Orioles, helping that franchise improve its record by 22 wins over the previous season. He finished fourth in the Cy Young voting that year.

Mussina quickly established himself as the rare control pitcher with good enough stuff to get more than his share of strikeouts. Although he never posted another ERA under 3.00 amid the rising offensive era in which he pitched, he did reel off another 10 seasons under 4.00, and had nine top-four finishes in the ERA category. Mussina never won a Cy Young award, but he was a top-10 vote-getter eight times. There were often pitchers who had more spectacular, dominating seasons than the cerebral hurler, but few matched him in year-in, year-out excellence.

No one matched Martinez in anything. He was, at his peak, the most dominant pitcher of all time. In his 2000 season, in which he posted a 1.74 ERA against a league average of just less than 5.00, in the designated hitter league, in tiny Fenway Park, Martinez rose above his contemporaries by a greater margin than any pitcher in history. Martinez never had a power pitcher's build, foreshadowing a shortened career, but he had a combination of power, command, and pure artistry that is unique in the history of the game. Adjusted for park and league setting, Martinez's career ERA is the lowest of any starting pitcher in history.

Unlike Mussina, Martinez was also aggressive to the point of courting trouble. It is tempting to see this in terms of the class struggle: the Stanford-educated, first-round pick Mussina had his scruples about hitting batters, considering it immoral or unsportsmanlike. He plunked just 60 of them, and it is probable that each was accidental. The Dominican Martinez, pitching for economic salvation, hit 137 despite throwing 780 fewer career innings than Mussina, and was saved from many more only by batters with quick reflexes.

The one thing that Pedro and the Moose do have in common is that they were unable to boost their New York teams to a championship. Martinez was available to the Mets because the Red Sox balked at giving the frail pitcher a four-year contract. The Mets did so, probably knowing that they were likely to get only two healthy years for the price of four. In actuality, they got only one. The Yankees got better value, going to the postseason in all but one season of their eight-year association, and with the exception of 2007, even when the aging Mussina struggled relative to his established level of ability (2004-05) he was still good enough to keep them in games.

If both pitchers' careers are indeed over, neither will have the 300 wins that lets the Baseball Writers' Association of America voters avoid thinking. This is a bad thing only insofar as when the writers start thinking, they generally come to the wrong conclusion. Three-hundred wins has little meaning where they are concerned, if it ever had meaning at all. One flared brighter than any pitcher, the other shone sharply and steadily. There is great value in these things regardless of numbers. Ironic that those who claim the least regard for statistics put the most faith in them.

[geezer]

A very hefty multi-year deal might prevent it, I hope

[TheMadDog31]

Gotta love Mussina. He's probably the most underrated pitcher of his time, and he definetly deserves a Hall Call. Especially now that he's gotten the "monkey" off his back of never winning 20 games.

Good for you Moose!

Mooooooooooooose...Moooooooooooooooooose