The top 100 Pitchers Project Round 6: 1969-1985

[jjpm74]

In the 60s, 70s and 80s, the role of a pitcher starts to shift and we see much more of a bullpen on most teams. Many also start to believe that the 30 win season and 300 win career would become a thing of the past. That wasn't meant to be.

*Please note, after careful consideration of the pitchers from this era, I've decided to stick to 1969-1986 and will only have 1 more phase one group after this: 1987-2008.

The following pitchers played primarily during this period and/or retired by 1991. The one exception is Ellis Kinder who's exclusion from the round 5 ballot was an oversight. For anyone who wants to learn more about these players, I have linked to their Wikipedia bios. (http://en.wikipedia.org/)Please note that wiki bios aren't always 100% reliable. However, with the more modern players, better online bios are not available. This is a vote for 15-20. I will be taking 20 from this group to advance to the next round:

Doyle Alexander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doyle_Alexander)
Jack Billingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Billingham)
Vida Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vida_Blue)
Jim Brewer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Brewer)
Mike Caldwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Caldwell)
Bill Campbell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Campbell_(baseball_player))
Steve Carlton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Carlton)
Clay Carroll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Carroll)
Mike Cuellar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Cuellar)
Larry Dierker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Dierker)
John Denny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Denny)
Doc Ellis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Ellis)
Bob Forsch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Forsch)
Rollie Fingers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollie_Fingers)
Woodie Fryman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodie_Fryman)
Gene Garber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Garber)
Dave Giusti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Giusti)
Ron Guidry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Guidry)
Willie Hernandez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Hernandez)
John Hiller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hiller)
Burt Hooton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Hooton)
Ken Holtzman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Holtzman)
Catfish Hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catfish_Hunter)
Fergie Jenkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergie_Jenkins)
Tommy John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John)
Jim Kaat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Kaat)
Ellis Kinder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Kinder)
Jerry Koosman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Koosman)
Dennis Leonard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Leonard)
Mickey Lolich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Lolich)
Sparky Lyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparky_Lyle)
Mike Marshall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Marshall_%28pitcher%29)
Tug McGraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tug_McGraw)
Greg Minton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Minton)
Joe Niekro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Niekro)
Phil Niekro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Niekro)
Jim Palmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Palmer)
Gaylord Perry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaylord_Perry)
Dan Quisenberry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Quisenberry)
Rick Reuschel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Reuschel)
Jerry Reuss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Reuss)
Rick Rhoden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rhoden)
J.R. Richard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._Richard)
Steve Rogers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Rogers_%28baseball%29)
Ray Sadecki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Sadecki)
Tom Seaver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Seaver)
Mario Soto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Soto_%28baseball%29)
Paul Splittorff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Splittorff)
Bob Stanley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Stanley)
Don Sutton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Sutton)
Kent Tekulve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Tekulve)
Luis Tiant Jr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Tiant).
Mike Torrez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Torrez)
John Tudor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tudor_%28baseball_player%29)
Rick Wise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Wise)
Wilbur Wood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbur_Wood)

[jjpm74]

Links to previous rounds:

pre-1893 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78102)
1893-1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78755)
1920-1945 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79250)
NeL and pre-NeL discussion thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656)
1946-1968 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79664)

pre-1893 winners:

John Clarkson
Tommy Bond
Bob Caruthers
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Sliver King
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Charley Radbourne
Al Spalding
John Ward
Mickey Welch

1894-1919 winners:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Jack Chesbro
Eddie Ciccotte
Clark Griffith
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinty
Kid Nichols
Deacon Phillippe
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Amos Rusie
Jesse Tannehill
Hippo Vaughn
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood
Cy Young

1920-1945:

Pete Alexander
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Waite Hoyt
Walter Johnson
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Dazzy Vance
Bucky Walters

1946-1968

Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Dutch Leonard
Sal Maglie
Juan Marichal
Denny McLain
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Billy Pierce
Robin Roberts
Johnny Sain
Warren Spahn
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn

As always, If I missed someone, please let me know and I will add them to the next round.

[jjpm74]

As we are short on ballots from the NeL/pre-Nel group, I invite anyone interested to post a ballot for this group here:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656

I have decided to keep the balloting for the NeL guys open for the next two weeks in the hopes that a few more people will weigh in will ballots. As the poll is no longer active in that thread, anyone interested in casting a ballot for that round should either post a list of 10-15 candidates in that thread or contact me privately.

I'm still hoping we'll get enough ballots cast for that group. If not, I might not be able to inclide them in the next phase.

[leecemark]

--Voted for the full 20. We can sort them out later:). Kinder seems to have slipped into the wrong grouping here. "Old Folks" was in an old folks home by 1969:cap:.

[Freakshow]

Best ERA+ 1967-86, 35% career GS, 120+ wins, 2020+ IP:


Cnt Player ERA+ W-L% W IP From To
+----+-----------------+----+-----+---+------+----+----+
1 Bob Gibson 129 .599 139 2155.2 1967 1975
2 Jim Palmer 129 .642 248 3647.2 1967 1984
3 Tom Seaver 127 .603 311 4782.2 1967 1986
4 Bert Blyleven 125 .538 229 3987.2 1970 1986
5 Andy Messersmith 121 .568 130 2230.1 1968 1979
6 Ron Guidry 120 .671 163 2218.1 1975 1986
7 Gaylord Perry 120 .542 269 4573.2 1967 1983
8 Steve Carlton 118 .586 320 4978.2 1967 1986
9 Phil Niekro 118 .545 305 5125.2 1967 1986
10 Steve Rogers 116 .510 158 2837.2 1973 1985
11 Wilbur Wood 115 .524 163 2524.1 1967 1978
12 Fergie Jenkins 115 .560 276 4304 1967 1983
13 Luis Tiant 115 .573 196 3008 1967 1982
14 Rick Reuschel 114 .511 162 2770.1 1972 1986
15 Jon Matlack 114 .498 125 2363 1971 1983
16 Tommy John 113 .564 234 3761.1 1967 1986
17 Jack Morris 113 .605 144 2121.2 1977 1986
18 Frank Tanana 112 .510 159 2760 1973 1986
19 Mel Stottlemyre 111 .535 123 2023.1 1967 1974
20 Dennis Eckersley 111 .541 151 2496 1975 1986
21 Nolan Ryan 110 .529 253 4111.1 1968 1986
22 Jerry Koosman 110 .515 222 3839.1 1967 1985
23 Don Sutton 109 .568 298 4777.2 1967 1986
24 Mike Cuellar 109 .601 167 2448.2 1967 1977
25 Vida Blue 108 .565 209 3343.1 1969 1986
26 Burt Hooton 108 .526 151 2652 1971 1985
27 Dave McNally 107 .619 143 2024.1 1967 1975
28 Mickey Lolich 107 .524 165 2814.2 1967 1979
29 Catfish Hunter 107 .585 207 3139.2 1967 1979
30 Dennis Leonard 107 .576 144 2187 1974 1986
31 Larry Gura 106 .565 126 2047 1970 1985
32 Rick Rhoden 105 .555 121 2118.1 1974 1986
33 Ken Holtzman 105 .549 163 2642.2 1967 1979
34 Jim Kaat 105 .546 185 3015.1 1967 1983
35 John Denny 104 .532 123 2148.2 1974 1986
36 Dock Ellis 104 .537 138 2127.2 1968 1979
37 Doyle Alexander 103 .542 160 2709.2 1971 1986
38 Rudy May 103 .502 148 2498 1969 1983
39 Jerry Reuss 102 .543 194 3219.2 1969 1986
40 Scott McGregor 102 .581 136 2038 1976 1986
41 Bob Forsch 102 .552 143 2371 1974 1986
42 Rick Wise 101 .509 178 2958.2 1967 1982

[Freakshow]

Best ERA+ 1967-86, 65% career G relief, 110+ saves, 700+ IP:


Cnt Player ERA+ SV WHIP IP G From To
+----+-----------------+----+---+-----+------+----+----+----+
1 Dan Quisenberry 162 229 1.126 846 506 1979 1986
2 Bruce Sutter 140 286 1.131 997 623 1976 1986
3 Kent Tekulve 139 176 1.237 1199.1 853 1974 1986
4 John Hiller 134 124 1.268 1234 539 1967 1980
5 Rich Gossage 130 278 1.206 1482.1 725 1972 1986
6 Jim Brewer 130 127 1.137 712.2 442 1967 1976
7 Gary Lavelle 129 135 1.312 1053 716 1974 1985
8 Sparky Lyle 127 238 1.275 1390.1 899 1967 1982
9 Bob Stanley 125 123 1.341 1373.1 503 1977 1986
10 Tug McGraw 121 179 1.231 1354.2 772 1967 1984
11 Willie Hernandez 121 114 1.221 896.2 604 1977 1986
12 Rollie Fingers 119 341 1.156 1701.1 944 1968 1985
13 Clay Carroll 119 130 1.314 1154 628 1967 1978
14 Mike Marshall 118 188 1.294 1386.2 723 1967 1981
15 Gene Garber 117 194 1.247 1393.2 843 1969 1986
16 Terry Forster 115 127 1.349 1105.2 614 1971 1986
17 Darold Knowles 115 130 1.349 977 691 1967 1980
18 Tippy Martinez 114 115 1.380 830 543 1974 1986
19 Bill Campbell 112 126 1.322 1219.1 693 1973 1986
20 Greg Minton 110 124 1.409 847 537 1975 1986
21 Dave LaRoche 105 126 1.313 1049.1 647 1970 1983
22 Dave Giusti 103 142 1.280 1276 566 1967 1977

[jjpm74]

I ended up cutting Jon Matlack, Andy Messersmith, Rudy May, Tippy Martinez, Gary Lavelle, Terry Forster, Dave LaRoche and Darold Knowles to try to get this group down to a managable number and because there seems to be a lot of clunkers who tow the line just above the standard for inclusion in this group. If anyone speaks up on their behalf, I'll be happy to add them to the next group.

[Westlake]

jjpm74.. i'm guessing Palmer was an oversight for you?

[jjpm74]

jjpm74.. i'm guessing Palmer was an oversight for you?

I wanted to make room on my ballot for J.R. Richard and figured Palmer would be one of the no brainers for most voting.

[Westlake]

I wanted to make room on my ballot for J.R. Richard and figured Palmer would be one of the no brainers for most voting.

Makes sense. I did the same to Catfish.

[jjpm74]

Makes sense. I did the same to Catfish.

I don't know if Catfish will have the kind of support Seaver and Carlton has but I'd be surprised if he doesn't make it to the next round. Granted Hunter played in a weak era, but he was one of the best pitchers in that era.

[Paul Wendt]

I ended up cutting Jon Matlack, Andy Messersmith, Rudy May, Tippy Martinez, Gary Lavelle, Terry Forster, Dave LaRoche and Darold Knowles to try to get this group down to a managable number and because there seems to be a lot of clunkers who tow the line just above the standard for inclusion in this group. If anyone speaks up on their behalf, I'll be happy to add them to the next group.

I would put Andy Messersmith in the top half of this group, far above the others named here.
But if he would get my vote it would be close enough that it would be an indifferent vote.

[Paul Wendt]

I wanted to make room on my ballot for J.R. Richard and figured Palmer would be one of the no brainers for most voting.
Knowing that the director isn't above that, I made it easy on myself too.
I'll spare you the details on that.

On the other matter, I voted for Kinder whom I mentioned last year and I confirmed that if Andy Messersmith were on the ballot it would come down to his significance (not value) versus the significance of some relief pitchers.

--
Every decade should have a Ted Abernathy, Kent Tekulve, or Dan Quisenberry to illustrate submarine pitching. Have we a first-rate submariner since Quis?

Have we a major knuckleball pitcher after Phil Niekro and Wilbur Wood, before Tim Wakefield?

[Paul Wendt]

15 Fingers
13 Quisenberry
8 Lyle
5 WOOD
4 Hiller
4 Marshall
3 Tekulve
1 KINDER
1 Hernandez
0 Brewer, Campbell, Carroll, Garber, Giusti, McGraw, Minton, STANLEY

UPPERCASE - started many games during their peak seasons

If I had noticed the tally for Fingers, I might have abused my discretion there.

Campbell and Minton are the two I would bump from the ballot in favor of Messersmith and someone. Say, Messersmith and McNally, for its alliteration.

[jjpm74]

On the other matter, I voted for Kinder whom I mentioned last year and I confirmed that if Andy Messersmith were on the ballot it would come down to his significance (not value) versus the significance of some relief pitchers.

Could you elaborate? Minus his off the field involvement with the reserve clause, I don't remember Messersmith amounting to much as a pitcher. He reminded me of Bob Ojeda.



Every decade should have a Ted Abernathy, Kent Tekulve, or Dan Quisenberry to illustrate submarine pitching. Have we a first-rate submariner since Quis?

Have we a major knuckleball pitcher after Phil Niekro and Wilbur Wood, before Tim Wakefield?

Quis was a one of a kind type of pitcher. Has there been a submariner with the kind of pinpoint control Quis had past or present? I can't think of any. His walks total is one of the best in baseball history. In his entire career he only walked 162 guys, about half of which were intentional passes and another 20-30 were players he was pitching around.

I'll add Messersmith to the next ballot.

[Paul Wendt]

Could you elaborate? Minus his off the field involvement with the reserve clause, I don't remember Messersmith amounting to much as a pitcher. He reminded me of Bob Ojeda.
Maybe you are young enough to notice him mainly after Ted Turner laid out the big bucks. He had been one of the best and most durable pitchers with the Dodgers, which is what made him so desired at the time. (It was both a strength and weakness of the case against the reserve system. Dave McNally joined the lawsuit, rather than retire, so that the case would survive if the Dodgers made Messersmith an offer he couldn't refuse.)

I did remember him as left-handed, and noticed otherwise in the record only after drafting him this winter. But the comparison with Ojeda?

His strongest statistical achievement was hits per nine innings, which must be very closely related to batting average.
Here are his league ranks in his eight full seasons 1969-1976, which includes one with Atlanta: 1-1-4-5-5-2-1-4.
Bold marks the two seasons before winning free agency, when he was 2-1 in inning pitched too.

Here I privately ranked him starting pitcher #16 ahead of practically everyone who doesn't have many votes, including J.R. Richard.

[jjpm74]

Here's the tentative list for the round 7 poll. As there is only one preliminary round after round 7 that will focus only on active pitchers, I'm looking for input on the list to make sure no one is being excluded. The list will include Andy Messersmith from the previous era.
* means they are on the chopping block and have a good chance of being cut from the ballot unless someone thinks they should be included.

These pitchers will definitely be on the ballot:

Rick Aguilera
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Tom Browning
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Doug Drabek
Dennis Eckersley
Sid Fernandez
Chuck Finley
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Roberto Hernandez
Orel Hershiser
Charlie Hough
Doug Jones
Jimmy Key
Mark Langston
Al Leiter
Dennis Martinez
Ramon Martinez
Jack Morris
Randy Myers
Robb Nen
Jesse Orosco
Dan Plesac
Jeff Reardon
Dave Righetti
Jose Rijo
Nolan Ryan
Brett Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Dave Stewart
Dave Stieb
Rick Sutcliffe
Frank Tanana
Fernando Valenzuela
Frank Voila
Bob Welch
David Wells
John Wetteland
Todd Worrell

These pitchers are still under consideration but probably won't make the ballot

Rod Beck
Steve Bedrosian
Tim Belcher
Andy Benes
Mike Boddicker
John Burkett
John Candalaria
Tom Candiotti
Danny Darwin
Steve Farr
Mike Flanagan
Bill Gullickson
Bryan Harvey
Mike Henneman
Jay Howell
Charlie Liebrandt
Jeff Montgomery
Gregg Olson
Jeff Russell
Scott Sanderson
Jeff Shaw
Dave Smith
Kevin Tapani
Ugueth Urbina
Bob Wickman
Mitch Williams
Mark Wohlers

These pitchers are on the chopping block

Jim Abbott*
Wilson Alvarez*
Pedro Astacio*
Floyd Bannister*
Bud Black*
Ricky Bottalico*
Jeff Brantley*
Dave Burba*
Tim Burke*
Ron Darling*
Mark Davis*
Rob Dibble*
Alex Fernandez*
Mike Fetters*
Freddy Garcia*
Jim Gott*
Kevin Gross*
Mark Gubicza*
Pete Harnisch*
Pat Hentgen*
Ken Hill*
Rick Honeycutt*
Steve Howe*
Danny Jackson*
Mike Jackson*
Jose Jimenez*
Darryl Kile*
Billy Kock*
Craig Lefferts*
Matt Mantei*
Kirk McCaskill*
Jack McDowell*
Roger McDowell*
Mike Moore*
Mike Morgan*
Charles Nagy*
Jaime Navarro*
Denny Neagle*
Bob Ojeda*
Mark Portugal*
Brad Radke*
Shane Reynolds*
Don Robinson*
Mel Rojas*
Kirk Rueter*
Kazuhiro Sasaki*
Jason Schmidt*
Mike Schooler*
Aaron Sele*
Heathcliffe Slocumb*
John Smiley*
Bryn Smith*
Zane Smith*
Todd Stottlemyre*
Greg Swindell*
Walt Terrell*
Bob Tewksbury*
Ismael Valdez*
Dave Veres*
Bob Walk*
Duane Ward*
Mike Williams*
Woody Williams*
Bobby Witt*
Mike Witt*

[jjpm74]

I was also wondering if anyone had a list of players who's last year was 2006 and a list of players who's last season was 2007?

[Paul Wendt]

>>
Here's the tentative list for the round 7 poll. As there is only one preliminary round after round 7 that will focus only on active pitchers, I'm looking for input on the list to make sure no one is being excluded. The list will include Andy Messersmith from the previous era.
* means they are on the chopping block and have a good chance of being cut from the ballot unless someone thinks they should be included.
<<

I wouldn't have noticed Messersmith but you named him as a final cut. My brain doesn't work in a way that can read this list for omissions.
One who comes to mind is Higuera and I see that he pitched only 1380 innings, only four reasonably full regular seasons.
Two is Bruce Hurst whom I notice only because you named Bobby Ojeda. I would rank Hurst above Ojeda (starred) but I wouldn't vote for him.

Looking over the starred names for potential omissions my thoughts are Darwin for longevity, Rijo for quality, Candiotti because we must treasure our knuckleball pitchers. I doubt that I would vote for any of them (and I don't know about Messersmith until looking over this lot more carefully).

[STLCards2]

>>
Here's the tentative list for the round 7 poll. As there is only one preliminary round after round 7 that will focus only on active pitchers, I'm looking for input on the list to make sure no one is being excluded. The list will include Andy Messersmith from the previous era.
* means they are on the chopping block and have a good chance of being cut from the ballot unless someone thinks they should be included.
<<

I wouldn't have noticed Messersmith but you named him as a final cut. My brain doesn't work in a way that can read this list for omissions.
One who comes to mind is Higuera and I see that he pitched only 1380 innings, only four reasonably full regular seasons.
Two is Bruce Hurst whom I notice only because you named Bobby Ojeda. I would rank Hurst above Ojeda (starred) but I wouldn't vote for him.

Looking over the starred names for potential omissions my thoughts are Darwin for longevity, Rijo for quality, Candiotti because we must treasure our knuckleball pitchers. I doubt that I would vote for any of them (and I don't know about Messersmith until looking over this lot more carefully).

I would very much consider Rijo - he was one of the best 2-3 pitchers in the NL for about 5 years before he hit a brick wall. Maybe a top 160-170 all-time pitcher.

[Freakshow]

I was also wondering if anyone had a list of players who's last year was 2006 and a list of players who's last season was 2007?
Here's 100 pitchers with the most wins 1980-2008, GS 35%+, ERA+ of 97+, debut 1970+:


Cnt Player W ERA+ W-L% DbYr IP From To
+----+-----------------+---+----+-----+----+------+----+----+
1 Roger Clemens 354 143 .658 1984 4916.2 1984 2007
2 Greg Maddux 350 133 .612 1986 4938.1 1986 2008
3 Tom Glavine 305 118 .602 1987 4409.1 1987 2008
4 Randy Johnson 290 136 .649 1988 3953.1 1988 2008
5 Mike Mussina 262 122 .636 1991 3475.2 1991 2008
6 Jamie Moyer 239 105 .565 1986 3670.1 1986 2008
7 David Wells 239 108 .604 1987 3439 1987 2007
8 Jack Morris 233 104 .574 1977 3474.2 1980 1994
9 Kenny Rogers 217 109 .593 1989 3249.2 1989 2008
10 Curt Schilling 216 127 .597 1988 3261 1988 2007
11 Pedro Martinez 212 157 .691 1992 2718.1 1992 2008
12 Andy Pettitte 211 117 .637 1995 2652.2 1995 2008
13 Kevin Brown 211 127 .594 1986 3256.1 1986 2005
14 John Smoltz 210 127 .588 1988 3395 1988 2008
15 Orel Hershiser 204 112 .576 1983 3130.1 1983 2000
16 Chuck Finley 200 115 .536 1986 3197.1 1986 2002
17 Dennis Martinez 199 107 .559 1976 3236.2 1980 1998
18 Bob Welch 199 105 .594 1978 2899.1 1980 1994
19 David Cone 194 120 .606 1986 2898.2 1986 2003
20 Dwight Gooden 194 111 .634 1984 2800.2 1984 2000
21 Jimmy Key 186 122 .614 1984 2591.2 1984 1998
22 Mark Langston 179 108 .531 1984 2962.2 1984 1999
23 Frank Viola 176 112 .540 1982 2836.1 1982 1996
24 Tim Wakefield 174 108 .534 1992 2743.1 1992 2008
25 Fernando Valenzue 173 104 .531 1980 2930 1980 1997
26 Charlie Hough 170 107 .496 1970 3034 1980 1994
27 Kevin Appier 169 121 .552 1989 2595.1 1989 2004
28 Dave Stieb 168 124 .566 1979 2766 1980 1998
29 Dave Stewart 168 100 .566 1978 2627.2 1981 1995
30 Bret Saberhagen 167 126 .588 1984 2562.2 1984 2001
31 John Burkett 166 99 .550 1987 2648.1 1987 2003
32 Danny Darwin 166 106 .483 1978 2930 1980 1998
33 Al Leiter 162 112 .551 1987 2391 1987 2005
34 Bill Gullickson 162 98 .544 1979 2559 1980 1994
35 Andy Benes 155 104 .527 1989 2505.1 1989 2002
36 Doug Drabek 155 101 .536 1986 2535 1986 1998
37 Tom Candiotti 151 108 .479 1983 2725 1983 1999
38 Bartolo Colon 150 112 .607 1997 2008.1 1997 2008
39 Scott Sanderson 150 101 .530 1978 2332.2 1980 1996
40 Frank Tanana 149 100 .467 1973 2777 1980 1993
41 Aaron Sele 148 100 .569 1993 2153 1993 2007
42 Brad Radke 148 112 .516 1995 2451 1995 2006
43 Tim Belcher 146 101 .510 1987 2442.2 1987 2000
44 Tim Hudson 145 126 .653 1999 2011.1 1999 2008
45 Bruce Hurst 145 104 .562 1980 2417.1 1980 1994
46 Livan Hernandez 144 99 .518 1996 2498.2 1996 2008
47 Steve Trachsel 143 99 .474 1993 2501 1993 2008
48 Kevin Tapani 143 101 .534 1989 2265 1989 2001
49 Scott Erickson 142 98 .511 1990 2360.2 1990 2006
50 Charlie Leibrandt 140 108 .541 1979 2303.2 1980 1993
51 Kevin Millwood 139 107 .565 1997 2053.2 1997 2008
52 Mike Morgan 139 99 .446 1978 2682.2 1982 2002
53 Bert Blyleven 139 108 .533 1970 2345.1 1980 1992
54 Mike Hampton 138 110 .577 1993 2074 1993 2005
55 Todd Stottlemyre 138 100 .533 1988 2191.2 1988 2002
56 Ramon Martinez 135 105 .605 1988 1895.2 1988 2001
57 Mike Boddicker 134 108 .536 1980 2123.2 1980 1993
58 Darryl Kile 133 104 .528 1991 2165.1 1991 2002
59 Woody Williams 132 102 .532 1993 2216.1 1993 2007
60 Mark Gubicza 132 109 .493 1984 2223.1 1984 1997
61 Jon Lieber 131 103 .514 1994 2196 1994 2008
62 Pat Hentgen 131 108 .539 1991 2075.1 1991 2004
63 Kirk Rueter 130 97 .586 1993 1918 1993 2005
64 Pedro Astacio 129 97 .510 1992 2196.2 1992 2006
65 Charles Nagy 129 101 .551 1990 1954.2 1990 2003
66 Jason Schmidt 128 110 .577 1995 1978.2 1995 2007
67 Jack McDowell 127 111 .593 1987 1889 1987 1999
68 Esteban Loaiza 126 98 .525 1995 2099 1995 2008
69 John Smiley 126 102 .550 1986 1907.2 1986 1997
70 Denny Neagle 124 105 .574 1991 1890.1 1991 2003
71 Jim Clancy 124 100 .471 1977 2183.1 1980 1991
72 Hideo Nomo 123 97 .530 1995 1976.1 1995 2008
73 Jeff Suppan 123 100 .508 1995 2172.2 1995 2008
74 Greg Swindell 123 107 .502 1986 2233.1 1986 2002
75 Tom Browning 123 97 .577 1984 1921 1984 1995
76 Mike Scott 123 101 .539 1979 2016.1 1980 1991
77 Roy Halladay 122 129 .663 1998 1714 1998 2008
78 Javier Vazquez 122 105 .504 1998 2183.1 1998 2008
79 Matt Morris 121 107 .568 1997 1806 1997 2008
80 Bud Black 121 103 .511 1981 2053.1 1981 1995
81 Derek Lowe 119 120 .534 1997 1853.1 1997 2008
82 Roy Oswalt 119 137 .657 2001 1529.2 2001 2008
83 Dan Petry 119 101 .546 1979 1982.1 1980 1991
84 Chan Ho Park 117 98 .565 1994 1816.2 1994 2008
85 Barry Zito 117 117 .571 2000 1724.2 2000 2008
86 Freddy Garcia 117 111 .606 1999 1701.2 1999 2007
87 Ken Hill 117 106 .518 1988 1973 1988 2001
88 Mike Witt 117 105 .502 1981 2108.1 1981 1993
89 Jose Rijo 116 121 .560 1984 1880 1984 2002
90 John Tudor 116 126 .624 1979 1769 1980 1990
91 Dave Burba 115 99 .569 1990 1777.2 1990 2004
92 Bob Ojeda 115 104 .540 1980 1884.1 1980 1994
93 Mark Buehrle 114 122 .579 2000 1760.2 2000 2008
94 Shane Reynolds 114 103 .543 1992 1791.2 1992 2004
95 Sid Fernandez 114 110 .543 1983 1866.2 1983 1997
96 Storm Davis 113 99 .541 1982 1780.2 1982 1994
97 Floyd Bannister 113 105 .507 1977 1952.2 1980 1992
98 Ed Whitson 113 98 .516 1977 1992.1 1980 1991
99 Danny Jackson 112 100 .461 1983 2072.2 1983 1997
100 Doyle Alexander 112 104 .533 1971 2004.1 1980 1989

[Freakshow]

Here's 75 relievers with the best ERA+ 1980-2008, 65%+ G in relief, Saves 18+, G 280+, IP 300+:


Cnt Player ERA+ SV IP WHIP G From To
+----+-----------------+----+---+------+-----+----+----+----+
1 Mariano Rivera 197 466 996.1 1.030 826 1995 2008
2 Francisco Rodrigu 187 185 426.1 1.102 378 2002 2008
3 Billy Wagner 180 381 811 1.011 759 1995 2008
4 Bryan Harvey 161 177 387 1.090 322 1987 1995
5 Tom Henke 156 311 789.2 1.092 642 1982 1995
6 Chad Cordero 154 128 320.2 1.198 305 2003 2008
7 Troy Percival 152 343 679.2 1.084 668 1995 2008
8 Joe Nathan 151 188 588.1 1.139 435 1999 2008
9 Scot Shields 150 18 608.2 1.180 402 2001 2008
10 John Wetteland 148 330 765 1.135 618 1989 2000
11 Dan Quisenberry 146 239 1003.1 1.173 642 1980 1990
12 Francisco Cordero 146 197 550.1 1.352 515 1999 2008
13 Trevor Hoffman 144 541 971 1.054 912 1993 2008
14 Damaso Marte 142 35 452.1 1.247 492 1999 2008
15 Mark Eichhorn 142 32 885.2 1.236 563 1982 1996
16 Brad Lidge 141 144 442 1.188 419 2002 2008
17 Keith Foulke 140 191 781.2 1.073 614 1997 2008
18 Armando Benitez 139 289 779 1.217 762 1994 2008
19 Robb Nen 138 314 715 1.213 643 1993 2002
20 Brian Fuentes 138 101 398.1 1.248 414 2001 2008
21 John Franco 137 424 1245.2 1.333 1119 1984 2005
22 B.J. Ryan 137 101 489.2 1.256 508 1999 2008
23 Jose Valverde 136 123 306 1.190 299 2003 2008
24 Scott Williamson 136 55 439.1 1.297 344 1999 2007
25 Tim Burke 136 102 699.1 1.205 498 1985 1992
26 Jeff Montgomery 134 304 868.2 1.244 700 1987 1999
27 Rich Gossage 133 209 899 1.187 643 1980 1994
28 Jeff Nelson 132 33 784.2 1.352 798 1992 2006
29 Steve Reed 132 18 870.2 1.259 833 1992 2005
30 Lee Smith 131 478 1289.1 1.256 1022 1980 1997
31 Roberto Hernandez 131 326 1071.1 1.367 1010 1991 2007
32 Mike Henneman 130 193 732.2 1.306 561 1987 1996
33 Dave Veres 130 95 694 1.323 605 1994 2003
34 Greg McMichael 130 53 523 1.293 453 1993 2000
35 Dave Smith 129 216 809.1 1.215 609 1980 1992
36 Steve Howe 129 91 606 1.196 497 1980 1996
37 Bobby Howry 129 66 664.2 1.219 642 1998 2008
38 Doug Jones 129 303 1128.1 1.243 846 1982 2000
39 Rob Dibble 128 89 477 1.195 385 1988 1995
40 David Riske 128 21 461 1.275 421 1999 2008
41 Ugueth Urbina 128 237 697.1 1.213 583 1995 2005
42 Jesse Orosco 127 144 1260 1.255 1234 1981 2003
43 Steve Farr 127 132 824.1 1.316 509 1984 1994
44 Kent Tekulve 127 101 896.1 1.280 687 1980 1989
45 Mike Timlin 126 141 1182 1.277 1040 1991 2008
46 Ricardo Rincon 125 21 439.2 1.319 557 1997 2006
47 Mike Jackson 125 142 1188.1 1.218 1005 1986 2004
48 Bob Wickman 125 267 1059 1.400 835 1992 2007
49 Doug Corbett 125 66 553 1.260 313 1980 1987
50 Steve Kline 124 39 682.1 1.383 796 1997 2007
51 Shigetoshi Hasega 124 33 720.1 1.327 517 1997 2005
52 Bill Simas 124 23 338.1 1.422 308 1995 2000
53 Duane Ward 124 121 666.2 1.256 462 1986 1995
54 Rod Beck 123 286 768 1.164 704 1991 2004
55 Larry Andersen 123 49 958.2 1.240 677 1981 1994
56 Randy Myers 122 347 884.2 1.304 728 1985 1998
57 Octavio Dotel 122 83 684.1 1.238 474 1999 2008
58 Gregg Olson 122 217 672 1.381 622 1988 2001
59 Greg Minton 122 146 978.2 1.387 637 1980 1990
60 Todd Worrell 122 256 693.2 1.233 617 1985 1997
61 Willie Hernandez 121 140 796 1.210 572 1980 1989
62 Al Holland 121 78 636.2 1.206 379 1980 1987
63 Jeff Reardon 121 365 1111.2 1.203 862 1980 1994
64 Billy Koch 120 163 407.1 1.399 379 1999 2004
65 Jerry Dipoto 119 49 495.1 1.510 390 1993 2000
66 Paul Shuey 119 23 530 1.411 476 1994 2007
67 Jeff Shaw 119 203 848 1.244 633 1990 2001
68 Eric Gagne 119 187 620.2 1.162 376 1999 2008
69 Gary Lucas 119 63 669 1.263 409 1980 1987
70 Bobby Thigpen 119 201 568.2 1.363 448 1986 1994
71 Gene Garber 118 108 718.2 1.297 485 1980 1988
72 Jason Isringhause 118 292 897.1 1.322 603 1995 2008
73 Alejandro Pena 118 74 1057.2 1.220 503 1981 1996
74 Bruce Sutter 118 195 651.1 1.216 421 1980 1988
75 Scott Radinsky 118 52 481.2 1.391 557 1990 2001

[Brad Harris]

Looking ahead, here's a rough approximation of the best 20 starting and best 10 relief pitchers we'll be considering. (Just trying to narrow down the queue to something a bit more manageable.)

Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Doug Drabek
Chuck Finley
Sid Fernandez
Doc Gooden
Orel Hershiser
Jimmy Key
Mark Langston
Jack Morris
Jose Rijo
Nolan Ryan
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stewart
Dave Stieb
Fernando Valenzuela
Frank Viola

Dennis Eckersley
John Franco
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Doug Jones
Randy Myers
Robb Nen
Jeff Reardon
Lee Smith
John Wetteland

[jjpm74]

Could a moderator please delete the sockeye aka Davekingman ballot from this poll?

[jjpm74]

I updated the next ballot and grouped them into 3 groups based on feedback.

[Brad Harris]

Incidentally, I believe David Wells and Curt Schilling are no longer active players. They might be included in the next poll.

[jjpm74]

Incidentally, I believe David Wells and Curt Schilling are no longer active players. They might be included in the next poll.

Schilling is technically on the DL. I probably will include him with this group as his career is probably over.

[jalbright]

Could a moderator please delete the sockeye aka Davekingman ballot from this poll?

Give me a list of who he's voted for, and I'll do what I can (the one thing I'm not sure I can do is erase from the poll the simple fact he voted, which would mean our base number of voters will be off.).

[jalbright]

Give me a list of who he's voted for, and I'll do what I can (the one thing I'm not sure I can do is erase from the poll the simple fact he voted, which would mean our base number of voters will be off.).
I've done what I can. Check my list:
Blue, Carlton, Hiller, Koosman, Lolich, Lyle, Marshall, McGraw, P. Niekro, Perry, Reuschel, Richard, Seaver, Sutton, Wood

Unfortunately, as we are discounting his ballot, the number of total votes will be one too high. I can't do anything about that. Sorry.

[jjpm74]

I've done what I can. Check my list:
Blue, Carlton, Hiller, Koosman, Lolich, Lyle, Marshall, McGraw, P. Niekro, Perry, Reuschel, Richard, Seaver, Sutton, Wood

Unfortunately, as we are discounting his ballot, the number of total votes will be one too high. I can't do anything about that. Sorry.

That's fine. I'll tally the borderline cases to make sure he didn't push anyone ahead. The guys clearly ahead won't matter either way.

[BlueBlood]

Schilling is technically on the DL. I probably will include him with this group as his career is probably over.

Could we also include someone like Pedro that we'd all induct no matter how he plays from here on out? Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz are all over the line as well.

[jjpm74]

Could we also include someone like Pedro that we'd all induct no matter how he plays from here on out? Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz are all over the line as well.

Those guys will all be in round 8.

I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but these pitchers will be in round 8. I will be taking 10 from round 8.:

Armando Benitez
Mark Buehrle
Bartolo Colon
Kelvim Escobar
Tom Glavine
Tom Gordon
Roy Halladay
Livan Hernandez
Roberto Hernandez
Trevor Hoffman
Tim Hudson
Jason Isringhausen
Randy Johnson
Todd Jones
Derek Lowe
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Jose Mesa
Kevin Millwood
Jamie Moyer
Mike Mussina
Hideo Nomo
Roy Oswalt
Troy Percival
Andy Pettitte
Mariano Rivera
Kenny Rogers
C.C. Sabathia
Johan Santana
Jason Schmidt
John Smoltz
Mike Timlin
Billy Wagner
Tim Wakefield

[jjpm74]

We've had a good turn out of this group. Voting ends in a few hours.

[Brad Harris]

Every decade should have a Ted Abernathy, Kent Tekulve, or Dan Quisenberry to illustrate submarine pitching. Have we a first-rate submariner since Quis?
Totally disagree that we need to represent types of hurlers in each of these polls. (Are we making sure each group has a screwball or fadeaway artist?) To answer the question, Byung-Hyun Kim, is the closest to an underarmed thrower since Quiz.


Have we a major knuckleball pitcher after Phil Niekro and Wilbur Wood, before Tim Wakefield?
As memory serves, Tom Candiotti fashioned a nice little career around that pitch.

[PVNICK]

You could add Charlie Hough to the knuckleballer list.

[jjpm74]

The following pitchers advance on:

Vida Blue
Steve Carlton
Rollie Fingers
Ron Guidry
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jerry Koosman
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Tug McGraw
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Tom Seaver
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Wilbur Wood

[henrich]

Looking ahead, here's a rough approximation of the best 20 starting and best 10 relief pitchers we'll be considering. (Just trying to narrow down the queue to something a bit more manageable.)

Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Doug Drabek
Chuck Finley
Sid Fernandez
Doc Gooden
Orel Hershiser
Jimmy Key
Mark Langston
Jack Morris
Jose Rijo
Nolan Ryan
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stewart
Dave Stieb
Fernando Valenzuela
Frank Viola

Dennis Eckersley
John Franco
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Doug Jones
Randy Myers
Robb Nen
Jeff Reardon
Lee Smith
John Wetteland

looks good to me.