The Message we get from Josh Hamilton from the media

[sturg1dj]

first let me say this once again...whenever a drug addict gets clean it is a good thing.


one thing that is starting to bug me about the Josh Hamilton situation is the change in discourse when it come to becoming a star

on top you have

Josh Hamilton - had it all, lost it all because of drug use, came back = hero

Jason Giambi - used PED's to achieve success, got caught and fessed up, slumped without, came back now stache night = fan favorite

Barry Bonds - was great, used PED's to get better, kind of got caught (not really) never fessed up because nothing was proven, has great seasons after testing comes along (not as great) and is forgotton (if not then will be) = villain

Albert Pujols - never been caught with anything or even accused. Best player in baseball. Puts up DiMaggio numbers. = seems to be the forgotten man in baseball


here is my point

just like in Hollywood where rehab seems to be a way of making actors more famous we see that for some reason the media loves these people who do wrong and come back. The message seems to be that it is ok to cheat or to make the wrong choices in life if you eventually make the right ones. Is that really the right message.We kept hearing how the story was Josh Hamilton coming back from drug use...but is that better than the other 7 home run derby entrants who didn't have the drug problem in first place.

[Moses Fleetwood-Walker]

Hamilton's got the complexion for the connection. Giambi too. This actually goes deeper than just baseball too.

[metfan13]

Hamilton's got the complexion for the connection. Giambi too. This actually goes deeper than just baseball too.

I'm pretty sure these racially tinged posts are frowned upon by management here at BBF.

[blacksilverfan12]

just like in Hollywood where rehab seems to be a way of making actors more famous we see that for some reason the media loves these people who do wrong and come back. The message seems to be that it is ok to cheat or to make the wrong choices in life if you eventually make the right ones. Is that really the right message.We kept hearing how the story was Josh Hamilton coming back from drug use...but is that better than the other 7 home run derby entrants who didn't have the drug problem in first place.

It's a sad sign in our society when things like these are glorified. While it's great that Hamilton has overcome drug addiction, I can't help but wonder what his career would be like if he had stayed clean. Great story, but driven into the dirt by the media, especially ESPN

[KCW]

Josh Hamilton - had it all, lost it all because of drug use, came back = hero

Jason Giambi - used PED's to achieve success, got caught and fessed up, slumped without, came back now stache night = fan favorite

Barry Bonds - was great, used PED's to get better, kind of got caught (not really) never fessed up because nothing was proven, has great seasons after testing comes along (not as great) and is forgotton (if not then will be) = villain

Albert Pujols - never been caught with anything or even accused. Best player in baseball. Puts up DiMaggio numbers. = seems to be the forgotten man in baseball

You forgot:

Alex Rodriguez - same as Albert Pujols except he plays in NY = biggest star in baseball

[parlo]

first let me say this once again...whenever a drug addict gets clean it is a good thing.


one thing that is starting to bug me about the Josh Hamilton situation is the change in discourse when it come to becoming a star

on top you have

Josh Hamilton - had it all, lost it all because of drug use, came back = hero

Jason Giambi - used PED's to achieve success, got caught and fessed up, slumped without, came back now stache night = fan favorite

Barry Bonds - was great, used PED's to get better, kind of got caught (not really) never fessed up because nothing was proven, has great seasons after testing comes along (not as great) and is forgotton (if not then will be) = villain

Albert Pujols - never been caught with anything or even accused. Best player in baseball. Puts up DiMaggio numbers. = seems to be the forgotten man in baseball


here is my point

just like in Hollywood where rehab seems to be a way of making actors more famous we see that for some reason the media loves these people who do wrong and come back. The message seems to be that it is ok to cheat or to make the wrong choices in life if you eventually make the right ones. Is that really the right message.We kept hearing how the story was Josh Hamilton coming back from drug use...but is that better than the other 7 home run derby entrants who didn't have the drug problem in first place.
I suggest you read the biblical parable of the Prodigal Son.
The conflict you describe is as old as time.

[parlo]

You forgot:

Alex Rodriguez - same as Albert Pujols except he plays in NY = biggest star in baseball Wasnt ARod the biggest star long before he came to NY ???

[Afterglow]

Hamilton's got the complexion for the connection. Giambi too. This actually goes deeper than just baseball too.


That is just disgusting.

What Hamiltion did was to himself. He didn't put chemicals in his body to enhance his performance. Well.. unless you consider coke, crack, and heroin PED's.


This is comparing apples to oranges.

He has a good story. The others don't. Big deal.

[Moses Fleetwood-Walker]

He has a good story. The others don't. Big deal.

If you tell your kids to look up to Hamilton thats your business. I understand the media needs "feel good stories" to sell papers and the such, but Im not buying. He's no more heroic than the other people the OP listed.

[metfan13]

Don't know if he's heroic. But it's a damn fine story.

[DoubleX]

Hamilton's got the complexion for the connection. Giambi too. This actually goes deeper than just baseball too.

While I wish you'd wouldn't focus on race so much around here (even though it is a big issue, it is not always the issue), I completely agree with you on this point. I'm sick of all the Josh Hamilton hype, and I've been thinking all along that if he were black or hispanic he would not be the great feel good story he is. It's a nice story, but he was a victim of his own poor choices, and that should not be forgotten, and I don't see why a person should be lauded more for overcoming his poor choices than a person who never made those poor choices to begin with.

[Old Sweater]

What I get is many more fans are willing to forgive a guy that pissed away 6 years of his prime hurting his family/Rays/MLB then someone accused or admitted PED user that actually helped his team win and increase attendance for the last 4 years?????????????????????

[LetsGoMets687]

first let me say this once again...whenever a drug addict gets clean it is a good thing.


one thing that is starting to bug me about the Josh Hamilton situation is the change in discourse when it come to becoming a star

on top you have

Josh Hamilton - had it all, lost it all because of drug use, came back = hero

Jason Giambi - used PED's to achieve success, got caught and fessed up, slumped without, came back now stache night = fan favorite

Barry Bonds - was great, used PED's to get better, kind of got caught (not really) never fessed up because nothing was proven, has great seasons after testing comes along (not as great) and is forgotton (if not then will be) = villain

Albert Pujols - never been caught with anything or even accused. Best player in baseball. Puts up DiMaggio numbers. = seems to be the forgotten man in baseball


here is my point

just like in Hollywood where rehab seems to be a way of making actors more famous we see that for some reason the media loves these people who do wrong and come back. The message seems to be that it is ok to cheat or to make the wrong choices in life if you eventually make the right ones. Is that really the right message.We kept hearing how the story was Josh Hamilton coming back from drug use...but is that better than the other 7 home run derby entrants who didn't have the drug problem in first place.

Celebrity drug addicts, still using or recovering, get media attention.

Period. That's just the way the media works. And anyone who watches "real" news these days, knows that the line between tabloid news and "hard" news is becoming less and less defined.

[Afterglow]

If you tell your kids to look up to Hamilton thats your business. I understand the media needs "feel good stories" to sell papers and the such, but Im not buying. He's no more heroic than the other people the OP listed.


What is so heroic about PED users?

Hamilton had this talent when he was drafted.

He screwed up. Wasted away multiple years of his life. Seemingly giving all of his potential away to drugs. After a couple of years away from the game, where he was even lucky to live through. He got his life back together and did what he was intended to do.

That and this guy isn't just about baseball. He is really big on talking to younger people who go through these problems.

Granted he brought this on himself. And has nobody to blame other than Josh Hamilton. He has never put the blame on anyone else.

He is really a shinning example that when your in a personal hell. Controlled by your own demons. You can pull through and come out the other end ok.

I see nothing wrong with people praising him.



But of course since he is a white guy, he shouldn't get any praise for anything. Cause that is offensive and racist.

I wanna vomit.

[jwkfs]

The media loves a 'feel good' story; that's all there is to it. Just wait until the Olympics -- NBC (or whoever) will spend more time telling the heartwarming stories of athletes who 'overcame adversity' than they will showing said athletes compete.

[Old Sweater]

The media loves a 'feel good' story; that's all there is to it. Just wait until the Olympics -- NBC (or whoever) will spend more time telling the heartwarming stories of athletes who 'overcame adversity' than they will showing said athletes compete.


Yeah.....it makes ya wanna keep a box of kleenex by your chair...to clean up the puke that is.......:)..well at least for me.......when ya pays a quarter for the highs dive, ya's want to see the highs dive

At least I got to see some good one's in my youth.......now all this heart tinglers have me changing the channel. Betcha they would make a 20 minute heart tingler off of the Fosbury Flop nowdays.:)

[Wade8813]

One of the common sentiments during the whole PED thing has been that if a player would admit to it/apologize, that would make things better. That's part of what's happening here.

Also, overcoming drug/alcohol addiction is incredibly difficult, even if self inflicted. It's not so hard to not get involved in that in the first place. Difficulties make a story more interesting than everyday life. And some people just have a tendency to be forgotten, regardless of whether they should be or not.

Lastly, I should point out that people that overcome difficulties that aren't self-inflicted are often lauded much more. Someone like Jackie Robinson, who persevered despite obstacles created by other people.

[sturg1dj]

if Barry Bonds admits and/or apologizes for PED use do you think fans will like him?

[Afterglow]

if Barry Bonds admits and/or apologizes for PED use do you think fans will like him?

I think it is safe to say that some people truly have "made there bed, and now there gonne have to lie in it".

[Wade8813]

if Barry Bonds admits and/or apologizes for PED use do you think fans will like him?

I think he'd be more popular with some people. The problem in his case is that he's also unpopular for other reasons (people view him as a jerk), and that he hasn't confessed or apologized after all this time.

Apologizing this late would be viewed as insincere by many people.

[sturg1dj]

something I just realized

Joe Buck is doing the game


so I get to hear Joe Buck talk about Josh Hamilton for 9 innings tonight if I choose to watch the game. Its more and more looking as though I will skip it this year.

[sturg1dj]

i did like how at one point a discussion popped up between two of the talking heads (I forget which 2) that was something like this

person 1: Hamilton not playing against major league pitching for 3 years and coming back and being this good is unprecendented

then someone pointed out the players who left during WWII

person 1: but those guys had an advantage since they had faced major league pitching before that where Hamilton had faced only single A pitching

person 2: and Hamilton never flew a bomber mission over the Pacific Ocean

[Francoeurstein]

Josh Hamilton is indeed heroic in the sense of him being able to turn his life around and being able to hit major league pitching after such a long hiatus from baseball. Something we all have to remember is the he DID take drugs at one point so he's not the greatest person to let your kids look up to. Try David Eckstein or Rudy. :rofl:

[redlegsfan21]

Josh Hamilton is one of best all-around players I've seen play in Cincinnati. That's what I think makes him so special. He made amazing catches and hit lovely homeruns. I'm still surprised the Cubs gave him to us.

I was very disappointed in ESPN in comparing Hamilton to T.O. last night for signing that baseball. Josh Hamilton is no where like that, he just signs autographs for every fan who wants one. He is truly a man of character and integrity since rehab.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

We all know Hamilton's story. It's now a tired story. I'm sure Josh is tired of all the press it's gotten as well. Can we now just focus on John Hamilton, the ballplayer? Some have compared him to Mickey Mantle. Is he that talented?

[steelcurtain76]

Personally...I don't care what the media or celebrities say, because for as much as some of them try to run our lives morally, spritually, and politically... their lives are a mess.

That being said, I will make my own assessment on what Josh Hamilton means to me. I love to watch him play, he is an inspiration in that he made a mistake and came back from it, and he is doing everything he can to be an example from this day forward.

No one can take back things they said, did, or otherwise in their past. What we all do is move forward and do our best to be better people. That is what Josh has done. He praised his Savior last night after the Home Run Derby, he congratulated the winner, and he was genuinely humbled by the attention he received.

I will always enjoy watching Josh play....and it wouldn't matter what color his skin is. He's my brother in the Lord...and that is praiseworthy enough for me.

[Williamsburg2599]

something I just realized

Joe Buck is doing the game


so I get to hear Joe Buck talk about Josh Hamilton for 9 innings tonight if I choose to watch the game. Its more and more looking as though I will skip it this year.

You called it. Joe just announced they'll talk more about Hamilton's story later. Can't wait! :rant:

[blacksilverfan12]

You called it. Joe just announced they'll talk more about Hamilton's story later. Can't wait! :rant:

What else is there to talk about? He used drugs, now he's clean, and he's playing great baseball. Haven't we heard that before?

[Williamsburg2599]

What else is there to talk about? He used drugs, now he's clean, and he's playing great baseball. Haven't we heard that before?

But it's more amazing/movie-worthy/godlike the 37th time you've heard it. :hp

[blacksilverfan12]

But it's more amazing/movie-worthy/godlike the 37th time you've heard it. :hp

Right...of course:rolleyes:

[rockin500]

I suggest you read the biblical parable of the Prodigal Son.
The conflict you describe is as old as time.
exactly. i have no problem with them praising him. He screwed up plenty, but came back into the fold at some point. Not enough come back from his problems.

[Zito75]

Is he that talented?

All the drama aside, I say almost- He's certainly on track.

[plask_stirlac]

If Hamilton is a great story, why didn't Raines get many HOF votes? He didn't miss time.

[rockin500]

We all know Hamilton's story. It's now a tired story. I'm sure Josh is tired of all the press it's gotten as well. Can we now just focus on John Hamilton, the ballplayer? Some have compared him to Mickey Mantle. Is he that talented?
talent wise? without a doubt. I dont think theres any one in baseball who would doubt that he is talent wise, right up there with the best of them. When he was drafted, scouts drooled over him as the ultimate 5 tool player.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

talent wise? without a doubt. I dont think theres any one in baseball who would doubt that he is talent wise, right up there with the best of them. When he was drafted, scouts drooled over him as the ultimate 5 tool player.

That's what we should be talking about then. We have this young guy with the talent equal to Mickey Mantle! How many players since Mantle retired have had that kind of talent? I remember when he was drafted. He was pitching in high school with 95 mph fastballs!

[TonyStarks]

What else is there to talk about? He used drugs, now he's clean, and he's playing great baseball. Haven't we heard that before?

I gotta say listening to Joe Buck say "former crack addict" just made me cringe.
And Buck repeated the story when he didn't get to finish his version of the Josh Hamilton story during 32's first AB.

Disgusting.

[giantsrule]

their already in talks with Matthew McConaughey for the lead role...

[Pinstripes]

first let me say this once again...whenever a drug addict gets clean it is a good thing.


one thing that is starting to bug me about the Josh Hamilton situation is the change in discourse when it come to becoming a star

on top you have

Josh Hamilton - had it all, lost it all because of drug use, came back = hero

Jason Giambi - used PED's to achieve success, got caught and fessed up, slumped without, came back now stache night = fan favorite

Barry Bonds - was great, used PED's to get better, kind of got caught (not really) never fessed up because nothing was proven, has great seasons after testing comes along (not as great) and is forgotton (if not then will be) = villain

Albert Pujols - never been caught with anything or even accused. Best player in baseball. Puts up DiMaggio numbers. = seems to be the forgotten man in baseball


here is my point

just like in Hollywood where rehab seems to be a way of making actors more famous we see that for some reason the media loves these people who do wrong and come back. The message seems to be that it is ok to cheat or to make the wrong choices in life if you eventually make the right ones. Is that really the right message.We kept hearing how the story was Josh Hamilton coming back from drug use...but is that better than the other 7 home run derby entrants who didn't have the drug problem in first place.This is a pretty simple thing. Giambi and Hamilton have both openly admitted that they screwed up, and have basically embraced the fans and the media in asking for "forgiveness."

Bonds is surly with the media, doesn't know how to handle damage control, hasn't admitted ANY wrongdoing of any kind at all, etc, etc.

And for anyone to imply that it's a racial thing is ridiculous. Darryl Strawberry was wholeheartedly embraced by NY and the media when he was with the Yankees, because he was sorry for his mistakes.

Pujols is perhaps "forgotton" (among some) because he plays in St. Louis. For whatever reason, you're not going to get the attention there. Hamilton has gotten the attention because he seemingly came out of nowhere after his time out of baseball. 5-7 years down the road, if Hamilton continues to put up very similar numbers to Pujols, he'll be no more famous than Pujols, believe me. It's more a "flavor of the month" kind of thing with how surprising Hamilton has been, and how much he's turned his life around (apparently).

[SHOELESSJOE3]

This is a pretty simple thing. Giambi and Hamilton have both openly admitted that they screwed up, and have basically embraced the fans and the media in asking for "forgiveness."

Bonds is surly with the media, doesn't know how to handle damage control, hasn't admitted ANY wrongdoing of any kind at all, etc, etc.

And for anyone to imply that it's a racial thing is ridiculous. Darryl Strawberry was wholeheartedly embraced by NY and the media when he was with the Yankees, because he was sorry for his mistakes.

Pujols is perhaps "forgotton" (among some) because he plays in St. Louis. For whatever reason, you're not going to get the attention there. Hamilton has gotten the attention because he seemingly came out of nowhere after his time out of baseball. 5-7 years down the road, if Hamilton continues to put up very similar numbers to Pujols, he'll be no more famous than Pujols, believe me. It's more a "flavor of the month" kind of thing with how surprising Hamilton has been, and how much he's turned his life around (apparently).


It is simple if some would stop and think. Giambi no better than any other who used but he seems to have some remorse.

Barry on the other hand, you hit it right on the head, his attitude.
Some years ago asked about possible use of steroids in the game, question not directed at him, this was before 2001.

His Answer, "It's none of the people's business what the players do."


More wisdom from Barry on steroids.

"There are worse things, heroin and cocaine." Oh I see, so that means it not really that bad to use.

"Your talking about something that was not illegal at that time."

"If I can't go out there and some fan pays $60 for a ticket, who's getting cheated, not me."

He saves the best for last. "You get glasses so you can see, so you can do your job. Is that cheating. Whats the difference."

I have no idea how some Bond's backers can't understand why he is viewed the way he is by the public. It's called human nature, he presents himself in a way that does not endear him to the public, his own doing.

[hellborn]

Josh is a great story and more power to him, but he's not a hero at all to me. More of a cautionary tale that seems to have a happy ending...but, we're nowhere near the end yet.

The most heroic actions, to me, are selfless...soldier jumps on a grenade to save his buddies, Joe Delaney jumps into a water-filled pit to save kids he doesn't know when he can't even swim, someone leaves a life of privilege to live in some hellhole and help people who have nothing. Roberto Clemente dies in a plane crash trying to help earthquake victims...he could have just paid for the aid and stayed home, but he wanted to do more.
I see Jackie Robinson as a hero for his baseball career, but it's a little different...he was advancing his own interests while he was fighting injustice and making things better for all people of color (well, for everybody, really). His actions benefitted himself and others...they were not totally selfless. This is not a knock on Jackie at all.

Josh is a guy who can hit a ball ten miles and blew years of his life in drug-induced squalor. It's great to see him back, but just watch the media descend upon him like wolves and tear him to shreds if he should slip. They'll eat Josh alive, because that will help them sell their product as much as lionizing him does now. Josh has a long way to go before we know the happy ending is real.

[NYMets523]

Pujols doesn't want attention.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Pujols doesn't want attention.

He easily could get it if he wanted to. Opening up his home for special needs children as he has is something Oprah would pounce on if she could.

hellborn mentioned Joe Delaney. He was my favorite player, his death still shocks me to this day.

Hamilton is a good comeback story, but it is one in progress. When you're dealing with addiction, it's not something you completely lick, it's an everyday thing. His story is still being told, day-by-day. More power to him, nice story. But hardly unique. The world is full of addicts who have overcome that addiction. Hamilton did hit absolute rock bottom, it seemed he couldn't come close to where he has gotten on the field so fast.

But Fox is the king of sensationalism. Hardly surprising how they're overdoing it.

Incidentally, this is not going to turn into yet another Bonds bashing thread. Enough threads have been hijacked already from the slightest opportunity.

[sturg1dj]

This is a pretty simple thing. Giambi and Hamilton have both openly admitted that they screwed up, and have basically embraced the fans and the media in asking for "forgiveness."

Bonds is surly with the media, doesn't know how to handle damage control, hasn't admitted ANY wrongdoing of any kind at all, etc, etc.

And for anyone to imply that it's a racial thing is ridiculous. Darryl Strawberry was wholeheartedly embraced by NY and the media when he was with the Yankees, because he was sorry for his mistakes.

Pujols is perhaps "forgotton" (among some) because he plays in St. Louis. For whatever reason, you're not going to get the attention there. Hamilton has gotten the attention because he seemingly came out of nowhere after his time out of baseball. 5-7 years down the road, if Hamilton continues to put up very similar numbers to Pujols, he'll be no more famous than Pujols, believe me. It's more a "flavor of the month" kind of thing with how surprising Hamilton has been, and how much he's turned his life around (apparently).



I am less pointing out why it happened and more looking at if it is right.

[sturg1dj]

He saves the best for last. "You get glasses so you can see, so you can do your job. Is that cheating. Whats the difference."




great quote, and has some truth...and this is the difference between people against steroids and people that don't care

what about laser eye surgery? you can have your eyesite changed to better than 20/20 to 20/10. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron couldn't do it. To me its medical science moving foward and baseball should embrace it and not try to slow progress.

[sturg1dj]

He easily could get it if he wanted to. Opening up his home for special needs children as he has is something Oprah would pounce on if she could.

hellborn mentioned Joe Delaney. He was my favorite player, his death still shocks me to this day.

Hamilton is a good comeback story, but it is one in progress. When you're dealing with addiction, it's not something you completely lick, it's an everyday thing. His story is still being told, day-by-day. More power to him, nice story. But hardly unique. The world is full of addicts who have overcome that addiction. Hamilton did hit absolute rock bottom, it seemed he couldn't come close to where he has gotten on the field so fast.

But Fox is the king of sensationalism. Hardly surprising how they're overdoing it.

Incidentally, this is not going to turn into yet another Bonds bashing thread. Enough threads have been hijacked already from the slightest opportunity.


isn't it a great story Albert Pujols playing with basically one arm needed Tommy John surgery on the other, leading his team that nobody picked to second place in the Central. The guy is hitting .350 with ONE ARM!! How is that not a story.

[Captain Cold Nose]

isn't it a great story Albert Pujols playing with basically one arm needed Tommy John surgery on the other, leading his team that nobody picked to second place in the Central. The guy is hitting .350 with ONE ARM!! How is that not a story.

On and off the field, yeah, Pujols is the man.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

great quote, and has some truth...and this is the difference between people against steroids and people that don't care

what about laser eye surgery? you can have your eyesite changed to better than 20/20 to 20/10. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron couldn't do it. To me its medical science moving foward and baseball should embrace it and not try to slow progress.

No matter what foot in mouth you can post out of Barry's mouth some one comes forth to to make sense out of it.
He said wearing glasses, nothing about eye surgery. When and where was the wearing of glasses illegal, it was a foolish statement. Assuming you read my whole post, his other statements show his flippant attitude on the subject of steroid use in the game. Those are only a few.

[Captain Cold Nose]

No matter what foot in mouth you can post out of Barry's mouth some one comes forth to to make sense out of it.
He said wearing glasses, nothing about eye surgery. When and where was the wearing of glasses illegal, it was a foolish statement. Assuming you read my whole post, his other statements show his flippant attitude on the subject of steroid use in the game. Those are only a few.

That's fine. This thread is about Josh Hamilton and the media. Post about that here, not Bonds simply because someone mentioned his name.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

That's fine. This thread is about Josh Hamilton and the media. Post about that here, not Bonds simply because someone mentioned his name.

Thats fine COLD, I got that. I only mentioned Barry because he was one of a number of players mentioned in the opening statement, how some are viewed differently.

Hamilton, for sure overdone by the media. Some inspiration found in his story but as usual the media, some broadcasters are beating this thing to death, nothing new.

[dl4060]

if Barry Bonds admits and/or apologizes for PED use do you think fans will like him?

Barry was not well-liked before PED use, I really do not see any reason he would be well-liked after his admission. It would be interesting to see how he would be looked at after an admission. We will not get that chance, in all likelihood, as Barry wants to stay out of jail.

Pete Rose, has the public changed their opinion of him following his admission? I don't know, I really don't see many op ed pieces clamoring for his induction.

The United States loves a feel good story.





As to the racial issue.....

It amazes me that the public embrace John Lucas to the extent that it did in the 1987 NBA playoffs, given that he is black. I thought feel-good stories for drug addicts were reserved for white folks.

Had Darryl Strawberry and Doc Gooden been able to return several years later to play their best, they would have been lauded. Probably more than Hamilton, given the NY media.

Part of the problem with bringing race into a discussion like this is that it quickly overwhelms all the other issues. It probably is a small factor here, but to imply that a black person in Hamilton's shoes would be treated completely differently and not looked at as a hero is pretty distasteful, not to mention poorly thought out. People who engage in that type of race baiting behavior do about as much good for the world as David Duke. If Josh Hamilton were a likable, smiley, black player I don't think the reaction to him would be very much different. Probably about the same. To break it down on racial lines is really pretty pointless. The only thing it serves to do is upset people, and destroy credibility, particularly when it is done so ad nauseam.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Barry was not well-liked before PED use, I really do not see any reason he would be well-liked after his admission. It would be interesting to see how he would be looked at after an admission. We will not get that chance, in all likelihood, as Barry wants to stay out of jail.

Pete Rose, has the public changed their opinion of him following his admission? I don't know, I really don't see many op ed pieces clamoring for his induction.

The United States loves a feel good story.





As to the racial issue.....

It amazes me that the public embrace John Lucas to the extent that it did in the 1987 NBA playoffs, given that he is black. I thought feel-good stories for drug addicts were reserved for white folks.

Had Darryl Strawberry and Doc Gooden been able to return several years later to play their best, they would have been lauded. Probably more than Hamilton, given the NY media.

Part of the problem with bringing race into a discussion like this is that it quickly overwhelms all the other issues. It probably is a small factor here, but to imply that a black person in Hamilton's shoes would be treated completely differently and not looked at as a hero is pretty distasteful, not to mention poorly thought out. People who engage in that type of race baiting behavior do about as much good for the world as David Duke. If Josh Hamilton were a likable, smiley, black player I don't think the reaction to him would be very much different. Probably about the same. To break it down on racial lines is really pretty pointless. The only thing it serves to do is upset people, and destroy credibility, particularly when it is done so ad nauseam.

Very well said, dl.

[DoubleX]

Part of the problem with bringing race into a discussion like this is that it quickly overwhelms all the other issues. It probably is a small factor here, but to imply that a black person in Hamilton's shoes would be treated completely differently and not looked at as a hero is pretty distasteful, not to mention poorly thought out. People who engage in that type of race baiting behavior do about as much good for the world as David Duke. If Josh Hamilton were a likable, smiley, black player I don't think the reaction to him would be very much different. Probably about the same. To break it down on racial lines is really pretty pointless. The only thing it serves to do is upset people, and destroy credibility, particularly when it is done so ad nauseam.

I agree that race is not the only issue here, but it is an issue. I'm often troubled on these boards by how often it seems that the issue of race is minimized as not being that big of a deal. Race remains a huge deal, and it's an ugly truth that too much of white America wishes to either ignore or gloss over. It is subconscious and extremely pervasive, and for those on the other side, it is a tremendously huge deal and sensitive area. The lack of empathy exhibited on these boards sometimes really disturbs me (I'm not saying this is your post specifically, just making a general comment).

Is it the only factor? Certainly not, and I agree that some here have addressed the issue ad nauseam. For instance, the resentment towards Barry Bonds has a lot more to do than with just race. However, there is not a single doubt in my mind that if Hamilton were black or Hispanic, there would not be so much hoopla (I even wonder if he would have been given another chance if he were black; there would probably have been a greater chance he'd be sent to jail if were black, because that's the reality of this country). The truth is that the majority of minority athletes had to overcome very difficult backgrounds and circumstances over which they had little control, and yet their achievements are not typically lauded nearly as much as Hamilton's comeback from his own poor decisions. Poverty, broken families, violence, drugs, and the general subconscious and pervasive prejudices of our society, are things that many minority athletes have had to overcome, much moreso than whites, but we talk little about this and seem to minimize these very real obstacles.

[Wade8813]

I agree completely - race is often minimized. But I think part of the reason it's minimized, is as a backlash against people who seem fixated on it.

Another reason is that people who aren't on the receiving end of racism often have very few ways of knowing how prevalent it is. I'm half Asian, but I pass for White. I live in a liberal area (just north of Seattle). I'm friendly with and/or related to people of various ethnicities, but don't spend a huge amount of time with them. I almost never witness racism first hand, and have never witnessed any extreme forms of racism. The same applies to others. Is it any wonder that people in that situation underestimate racisms' significance?

[DoubleX]

I agree completely - race is often minimized. But I think part of the reason it's minimized, is as a backlash against people who seem fixated on it.

Another reason is that people who aren't on the receiving end of racism often have very few ways of knowing how prevalent it is. I'm half Asian, but I pass for White. I live in a liberal area (just north of Seattle). I'm friendly with and/or related to people of various ethnicities, but don't spend a huge amount of time with them. I almost never witness racism first hand, and have never witnessed any extreme forms of racism. The same applies to others. Is it any wonder that people in that situation underestimate racisms' significance?

I totally agree with both of your points. The issue of race has been overly isolated and scrutinized in some conversations, prompting a backlash.

Your second point is spot on, IMO. It's really difficult to empathize with a situation when it doesn't apply to you or if you're removed from. A white person living in the heartland of American just cannot possibly grasp what it's like for a black person growing up in an inner city, and how racism, even on subconscious levels, has profound effects in society.

So bringing this back to the topic at hand, I have no doubt that if Hamilton were black or Hispanic, there would be less enthusiasm about his story. We overlook or take for granted all the many obstacles that so many minority athletes have over come just by their racial and socioeconomic predisposition at birth. So it just seems incongruous to heap so much praise on Hamilton, a guy who overcame his own poor choices. How else does one explain the disparity in treatment if race isn't a factor?

[digglahhh]

I guess I'm not needed here, DoubleX seems to be holding it down. :highfive:

I would like to make one point in response to the OP though. It was stated that the message this type of treatment sends is that it's okay to make the wrong choices, as long as you make the right ones eventually. I understand that may not be the best message, and oversimplified, for a young person. However, what is the alternative? People make mistakes; you can't change that fact. So, would you rather send the message that a single mistake is insurmountable?

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

I think that a major difference between Hamilton and those other guys is that Hamilton's drug use only hurt himself (and those close to him), whereas steroids hurt the whole game of baseball. If you think Giambi has been forgiven, just wait until his time for HOF election comes. I don't think the voters will be too sympathetic. You do make a good point about other players who've never used drugs being more deserving of praise. I've been annoyed with how the media has spun this thing, but I have no problem with the way Hamilton has carried himself. While his story is inspirational, he is a warning sign rather than a hero and I think he recognizes that.

[digglahhh]

Is it the only factor? Certainly not, and I agree that some here have addressed the issue ad nauseam. For instance, the resentment towards Barry Bonds has a lot more to do than with just race. However, there is not a single doubt in my mind that if Hamilton were black or Hispanic, there would not be so much hoopla (I even wonder if he would have been given another chance if he were black; there would probably have been a greater chance he'd be sent to jail if were black, because that's the reality of this country). The truth is that the majority of minority athletes had to overcome very difficult backgrounds and circumstances over which they had little control, and yet their achievements are not typically lauded nearly as much as Hamilton's comeback from his own poor decisions. Poverty, broken families, violence, drugs, and the general subconscious and pervasive prejudices of our society, are things that many minority athletes have had to overcome, much moreso than whites, but we talk little about this and seem to minimize these very real obstacles.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

See, my reflex is to say that the way to fix this is not to stop giving Hamilton praise, but rather to give praise to others who overcame substantial obstacles (many of which are less "their choice" than Josh's) to succeed. However, that's dangerous too, because those stories then become manipulated into ghetto-ized Horatio Alger myths. Start praising Allen Iverson, and it will be used to give credibility to the idea that the class and racial problems aren't big deals because the exception will be marketed like the rule. It quickly gets forgotten that these individuals were lucky enough to be blessed with incredible physical talents and as a result experienced somewhat atypical treatment. They had the potential to make people rich, and so there was a lot of interest taken in them.

Anyway, my point is damned if you do and damned if you don't. Begin to widely recognize the obstacles these kids overcame, and you open the door to all sorts of attempts to justify the scaling back of the already meager resources allotted to those same communities. Oprah did it, Jay-Z did it, and Lebron James did it, so your obstacles aren't real; you're just lazy.

[DoubleX]

I guess I'm not needed here, DoubleX seems to be holding it down. :highfive:

I would like to make one point in response to the OP though. It was stated that the message this type of treatment sends is that it's okay to make the wrong choices, as long as you make the right ones eventually. I understand that may not be the best message, and oversimplified, for a young person. However, what is the alternative? People make mistakes; you can't change that fact. So, would you rather send the message that a single mistake is insurmountable?

Digglahhh, redemption is certainly a good message and I'm by no means saying that people shouldn't look to Hamilton for inspiration. I was just responding to those who believe race isn't much of an issue in perception and that the response to Hamilton would be the same if he were black. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing, because there isn't a clear cut answer. The best I hope for is for people to be empathetic of the disposition of others, but again, in America, the unfortunate reality is that people find it much easier to empathize with white figures than minorities.

[digglahhh]

Digglahhh, redemption is certainly a good message and I'm by no means saying that people shouldn't look to Hamilton for inspiration. I was just responding to those who believe race isn't much of an issue in perception and that the response to Hamilton would be the same if he were black. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing, because there isn't a clear cut answer. The best I hope for is for people to be empathetic of the disposition of others, but again, in America, the unfortunate reality is that people find it much easier to empathize with white figures than minorities.

I agree that redemption is a good message, but I can also see why some people may think it's unfair to heap the praise on somebody who rebounded from bad decisions (perceptually) above he who managed to chart a much straighter course.

Personally, I think the OP's perception of the potential ramifications of the Hamilton story echo cynicism. I don't believe that the takeaway people, even impressionable kids, get from Hamilton's story is that it is okay a screw up. I think that thinking that doesn't give enough credit to kids; they're a lot smarter and perceptive than we often seem to think.

Needless to say, I'm in full agreement with you on the other element of the discussion.

[Pinstripes]

I don't want to turn this thread into even more of a racial discussion, but the reason I'm dismissing race as an issue in the "Bonds vs. Hamilton vs. Giambi" issue is because I think it's probably the lastfactor on the list of factors. I'm not claiming that any of them should be let off the hook. I'm not glorifying any of those three players. And none of the reasons for any of my feelings have anything to do with race.

Bonds, of those three guys, is clearly the one who hasn't handled himself in interviews. To me, that is by FAR the biggest reason he hasn't been let off the hook by the fans or the media. Another reason is that he's setting HR records while being virtually guaranteed to have taken performance enhancers. McGwire has been given almost as bad treatment, and will likely not make the HOF because of that. And don't forget McGwire has been quite gracious with the media and has generally comes off as a very likable guy when interviewed, and has still cost himself baseball glory because of what he did.

Again, I bring up Darryl Strawberry. The fans and media in NY adored the guy, becuase he sounded humble. He appreciated the opportunity he was given by Steinbrenner, and he seemed genuinely so. He was African American last time I checked, and was a former drug user with many personal problems. I don't think Hamilton has been glorified any more than Strawberry, and if anything, he's been glorified less that Straw was, because Straw played in NY. I have a feeling a guy like Strawberry would have gotten even MORE praise, adoration, and love from the fans and media had he broken a Home Run Derby record at Yankee Stadium or led the league in RBIs at the all star break or some similar accomplishment.

Lawrence Taylor had some serious issues, too... but man does NY love that guy. The media, the fans... many of his problems were swept under the rug because he had a great personality and was a superstar talent.

I hate to say this, because just saying it sounds insensitive and perhaps even in a way racist itself, but I think minorities are sometimes too quick to harp on racial issues. Believe me, I totally understand that there are numerous situations where a minority is treated completely unfairly. (Heck, in a small town upstate NY high school in the early 90s I faced racial name calling directed at me for being 1/2 Italian). It's not something that can completely disappear, especially when you consider how a large percentage of this country treated minorities going back to the 30s, 40s, 50s, etc. No minority was safe of racism. However, I think sometimes the "race" card is played just a bit too quickly. It can be at times an easy cop out and a way to avoid putting blame on someone who's messed up. Not that ethnicity is never an issue, and not that we should be afraid to stand up for ourselves when we feel we're unfairly judged, but often times you have to step back and take the role of an objective observer.

With Bonds, isn't it most likely that when asked about the PED issue he's defensive, surly, angry, etc? It's a very touchy issue, and I will not claim with certainty that race plays no part, but again I reference Darryl Strawberry. Could there have been a player with previous problems who was more embraced than him? His story is similar to Hamilton, but Hamiton was never the established superstar that Straw was, nor did Straw ever return to put up the kind of numbers that Hamilton has, but their stories are similar, and from what I see, the reception they've received by both the fans and the media is quite similar.

If Jason Giambi, an admitted PED user, was on the verge of breaking the all time HR record, had a history of being surly with the media, and was difficult to interview, do you think he wouldn't get a ton of backlash? I venture he'd get about as much "crap" as Barry is getting. Again, I reference Mark McGwire, who's been all but crucified (in the baseball "world") for his drug use. It's different for guys like Giambi and Hamilton... for one, Giambi isn't breaking any kind of records, and 2nd, Hamilton didn't use performance enhancers, he simply had a screwed up life.

If you can't see that there's a blatant difference, and I mean a HUGE difference between the cases of Giambi, Hamilton, and Bonds, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm a "white" guy, but I'll tell you right now, if another white guy screws up and has the kind of attitude Barry has, I'll be first in line to tell you what an idiot he is.

People love to hear about other people getting their life on track. Hamilton has apparently turned his life around, is trying to be a role model and an example of how NOT to do things, and he's embraced religion in a positive way. Good for him. More power to him, and I wish him the best, becuase it's a good message to not only the people out there who've screwed up their lives ("yes, you, too can turn things around"), but also a cautionary tale about how easy it is to "blow" your chances and miss out on what might have been 3, 4, or more years of MLB success.

Mark McGwire isn't being hoisted onto a pedistal, and likely won't make the HOF, when by all rights his numbers would be plenty to get him in. Additionally, McGwire had always been classy and understanding with the media, never surly, never angry, never came off as a guy with a bad attitude. Bonds, whether or not he really IS a "surly" guy, has often times come off as such. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of Bonds quotes and interviews during which he doesn't make himself look good. Contrast that to the way people like Derek Jeter or Joba Chamberlain or Mariano Rivera have conducted themselves and you'll see why fans and media are seemingly harder on him.

Again, not to say that Barry doesn't face some unfair judgement becuase of the color of his skin. I'm sure there are many people out there that never looked at him with an open mind due partly to that factor. But to me, Barry Bonds' reputation is fueled about 99.9% by everything BUT the color of his skin. And to suggest that if he was white, everything would be "ok"... in my opinion, that only serves to counteract all efforts at racial unity.

I won't claim that Hamilton is some kind of hero, and I don't know where anyone is getting the idea that he is. However, I'm a firm believer that unless you've done intentional harm to others, you deserve a second chance at life and making something out of yourself. He appears to be trying to be a positive influence on those around him, and if I heard correctly, he's spoken in front of children's groups and stuff about his story. To me, that alone gets him at least a tip of the cap.

And just to finish this ridiculously long and pointless rambling, let me just say that I love all people who are genuinely good people. I think we should ALL do that. If you have love in your heart, are willing to accept others for who they are, kind to others, and are spreading joy in your life, then I don't care if you're male, female, black, green, orange, blue, gay, straight, religious, athiest, agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, whatever... I'm happy to know you and happy that there are good people like you in the world.

[Pinstripes]

I agree that redemption is a good message, but I can also see why some people may think it's unfair to heap the praise on somebody who rebounded from bad decisions (perceptually) above he who managed to chart a much straighter course.I can totally agree there. However, I think in the end the person who's screwed up and straightened himself out can perhaps be more of a lesson than the person who's never screwed up. Not that the person who's screwed up is a better person, simply that I think we as a society need examples of both.

We need to praise people who have righted themselves after messing up. We need to show people that even if you've messed up, if you're in the gutter, there's value in making yourself a better person and picking yourself up off the ground. Children will also see that screwing up has its ramifications - Hamilton missed potentially several years of success at the MLB level, costing himself perhaps millions of dollars, he has tattoos all over that he sorely regrets and now can't get rid of easily, etc.

And again, we should absolutely NOT glorify him for what he's been through, but we should absolutely give him some credit for at least trying to make up for what he's done. Let's face it - he didn't kill anyone, he didn't commit a heinous crime. He's more than deserving of a chance to show us that he's now willing to contribute to society in a positive way.

Personally, I think the OP's perception of the potential ramifications of the Hamilton story echo cynicism. I don't believe that the takeaway people, even impressionable kids, get from Hamilton's story is that it is okay a screw up. I think that thinking that doesn't give enough credit to kids; they're a lot smarter and perceptive than we often seem to think.Precisely. If you tell children (children who are at least old enough to understand), a story... a story about "a very young talented baseball player, who started using drugs, found himself out of baseball, having no job, no success in life, etc, and then he got himself clean, embraced some positive things in his life, and was able to turn his life around", and then ask those children what the message in that story is, they would probably tell you things like "if you work hard you can turn your life around", that "using drugs can cost you your chance at success" and that "embracing positive things will help you in life." I don't think too many of them are going to walk away from that storythinking the main lesson learned is "You can use drugs and you'll still become a hero."

[west coast orange and black]

i feel that saying that hamilton kicked his habits and is now a good story because of his accomplishments on the field actually discredit his great achievement of kicking his habits.

if he kicked his habits but hit .228 he would not be discussed or even noticed.
that's a sad statement.

[Transplanted Fan]

i feel that saying that hamilton kicked his habits and is now a good story because of his accomplishments on the field actually discredit his great achievement of kicking his habits.

if he kicked his habits but hit .228 he would not be discussed or even noticed.
that's a sad statement.

That's sort of a two-way street. There were a lot of people who thought that Josh Hamilton was going to be the next big superstar in the game when he was drafted out of high school. Considering all that he has gone through, and all the time he had spent out of baseball, no one would think badly of him if the expectations were lowered as he made it to the big league level. Instead, he's done nothing but fully satisfy the very high hopes that were had of him when he was the first pick overall in 1999.

No matter what Hamilton would have been doing, whether he was in the majors, the minors, or out of baseball altogether, he still would have made for a good story on Outside the Lines or some other news profile show so long as he had conquered his addictions and was living a successful, healthy life. The fact that he did it and became the great ballplayer that everyone had planned for him to be only makes it all the more remarkable.

[west coast orange and black]

transplanted fan: No matter what Hamilton would have been doing, whether he was in the majors, the minors, or out of baseball altogether, he still would have made for a good story on Outside the Lines or some other news profile show...

maybe so, but i think that he would not be getting jack much love elsewhere, here, f'rinstance.

[Transplanted Fan]

transplanted fan: No matter what Hamilton would have been doing, whether he was in the majors, the minors, or out of baseball altogether, he still would have made for a good story on Outside the Lines or some other news profile show...

maybe so, but i think that he would not be getting jack much love elsewhere, here, f'rinstance.

That's the same for a public figure in any profession. A rock star kicks his substance abuse habit and opens a pre-school, he gets a "Where Are They Now?" segment during CBS Sunday Morning. A rock star kicks his substance abuse habit and records a platinum album, he has a movie made about him.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

We all know Hamilton's story. It's now a tired story. I'm sure Josh is tired of all the press it's gotten as well. Can we now just focus on John Hamilton, the ballplayer? Some have compared him to Mickey Mantle. Is he that talented?

To even think that a short timer could be comparable to Mick is saying a lot.
I think we should give this one some time.

[hellborn]

...
Your second point is spot on, IMO. It's really difficult to empathize with a situation when it doesn't apply to you or if you're removed from. A white person living in the heartland of American just cannot possibly grasp what it's like for a black person growing up in an inner city, and how racism, even on subconscious levels, has profound effects in society.
...

I like your posts, XX, but I do have to say that I think the "heartland" is EXACTLY where racism is the strongest. They may not understand the inner city and its denizens, but I think that many people there would love for racism to have a far more profound on society than it does now...to the point of isolation and/or deportation. Aryan Nations and their lot are basically "heartland" societies.
I'm just saying, don't think of the "heartland" as being Mayberry...people there are very aware of racism, believe me. And, it has a lot of support there...not everybody, of course, but it is very common.

[DoubleX]

I like your posts, XX, but I do have to say that I think the "heartland" is EXACTLY where racism is the strongest. They may not understand the inner city and its denizens, but I think that many people there would love for racism to have a far more profound on society than it does now...to the point of isolation and/or deportation. Aryan Nations and their lot are basically "heartland" societies.
I'm just saying, don't think of the "heartland" as being Mayberry...people there are very aware of racism, believe me. And, it has a lot of support there...not everybody, of course, but it is very common.

I don't want this discussion to become just about race in America, but I see your point. Perhaps my example would have been better illustrated using a white person from the suburbs? The point I was trying to make is that there are people all over this country that have very little experience with race. They might not consider themselves racist, but because of the media and stereotypes and what not, there is a very strong subconscious racism in our society, and if you're living on the other side, or don't have much exposure/experience to the other side, it can be hard to empathize with and grasp the realities of how divisive race remains. It's easy to say race isn't a big deal when you're not on the other side or lacking lots of exposure.

[digglahhh]

Straw was loved by many in NY, Doc too. (In a certain why, they exemplified the NYC of their era, that’s a whole other post right there, I’ll save it for ElHalo)

Anyway, the question in regard to race is how quickly (or slowly) the stated or implied parenthetical “ex-drug-addict” lingers. Straw was liked, but he was also the object of ridicule, and he was never able to fully extricate his image from his past (of course serial relapses didn’t help). I think one of the points that many of the posters who are arguing along this line are trying to make is that the media seems much more zealous to bring up the indiscretions of a black athlete’s past to cast doubt on his character “today” than they do with white athletes. The issue isn’t liking them, or covering them, so much as it is a perceived need to not let us forget that this person make bad decisions in their past.

It’s also question of the subtleties of how the past is spoken of. Is it spoken of in the inspirational, look what he’s overcome, feel-good story sense? Or is it spoken of in the, hey, before you trust this guy, remember he did X sense?