AL Closer?

[DoubleX]

There's a minor fuss today (at least here in NY) over who should close for the AL. Apparently Jonathan Papelbon feels he's earned the right to close (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/07/14/2008-07-14_jonathan_papelbon_says_he_should_close_a.html?p age=0), over Mariano Rivera and any sentimental favor.

Personally, I was on the bandwagon that wanted to see Rivera start the game as there's no guarantee what the situation will be at the end. But if the AL is ahead in a close game in the 9th, with WS home field advantage potentially relevant to yo as manager, who do you use to close out the game? The choices aren't just limited to Papelbon and Rivera, as Francisco Rodriguez, Joe Nathan, George Sherrill, and Joakim Soria are also on the roster.

Here are some relevant stat comparisons:

Saves
1) Rodriguez - 38
t2) Papelbon - 28
t2) Sherrill - 28
4) Nathan - 27
5) Soria - 25
6) Rivera - 23

Blown Saves
1) Rivera - 0
t2) Nathan - 2
t2) Soria - 2
4) Rodriguez - 3
5) Papelbon - 4
6) Sherrill - 6

ERA
1) Rivera - 1.06
2) Nathan - 1.13
3) Soria - 1.47
4) Rodriguez - 2.36
5) Papelbon - 2.43
6) Sherrill - 4.08

ERA+
1) Rivera - 384
2) Nathan - 348
3) Soria - 292
4) Rodriguez - 186
5) Papelbon - 178
6) Sherrill - 103

WHIP
1) Rivera - 0.638
2) Soria - 0.721
3) Nathan - 0.933
4) Papelon - 0.959
5) Rodriguez - 1.262
6) Sherrill - 1.412

IP
1) Soria - 43
2) Rivera - 42.3
3) Rodriguez - 42
4) Papelbon - 40.7
t5) Nathan - 39.7
t5) Sherrill - 39.7

[parlo]

Its only a "fuss" because talk radio and tabloids have nothing else to talk about over the All Star break. It is a complete fabricated issue. These two forms of media create issues when none exist.

[Westlake]

Its only a "fuss" because talk radio and tabloids have nothing else to talk about over the All Star break. It is a complete fabricated issue. These two forms of media create issues when none exist.

Bingo. This what what Papelbon actually said...

"If I was managing the team, I would close," said Papelbon. "I'm not managing the team, so it don't matter."

"We've both earned that right; us, by winning the World Series and having the opportunity of having our manager there and our team being represented, and Mariano by what he's done for this role, we're in Yankee Stadium and blah, blah, blah," Papelbon said. "It's not that easy. Everybody thinks it's a cut and dry answer, but it's not."

Mariano Rivera said this --

"I think I should get the shot." "Knowing Francona, I have a feeling he'll put me there if we have the opportunity to close the game."

So they BOTH think they should be the closer, not just Papelbon. Yet, since they need a story and its a NY paper the headline reads "Jonathan Papelbon says he should close all-star game ahead of Mo."


That being said, if you go by their stats, Rivera has been the best reliever of the bunch.

[Mattingly]

We can debate this in 2009. In 2008, there's only one "best of the best", who's even come through during the ASG.

If anything, Mo should get special treatment at the end of the game.

[DoubleX]

Bingo. This what what Papelbon actually said...

"If I was managing the team, I would close," said Papelbon. "I'm not managing the team, so it don't matter."

"We've both earned that right; us, by winning the World Series and having the opportunity of having our manager there and our team being represented, and Mariano by what he's done for this role, we're in Yankee Stadium and blah, blah, blah," Papelbon said. "It's not that easy. Everybody thinks it's a cut and dry answer, but it's not."

Mariano Rivera said this --

"I think I should get the shot." "Knowing Francona, I have a feeling he'll put me there if we have the opportunity to close the game."

So they BOTH think they should be the closer, not just Papelbon. Yet, since they need a story and its a NY paper the headline reads "Jonathan Papelbon says he should close all-star game ahead of Mo."


That being said, if you go by their stats, Rivera has been the best reliever of the bunch.

I think the issue some people are having is how dismissive and cavalier Papelbon appears about the situation, as if the Yankee Stadium thing, combined with Rivera's performance, doesn't matter all that much. And to some it probably doesn't, but to those who it matters, I think they've taken offense.

The only issue I really have is that Papelbon is painting the picture as just Rivera and him, but Nathan, Rodriguez, and Soria all have good arguments to be in the discussion as well, and that's why I made this poll bigger than just Rivera and Papelbon.

[NYMets523]

Rivera will pitch the 9th if the NL is winning or close if the AL is winning come hell or high water.


The real question is who the hell is closing for the NL?

[KCGHOST]

This is a tempest in a Talking Head teapot. We all know that it will be Mariano in the 9th unless there is a tie going into the 9th. That could pose a real problem for Francona.

[TheMadDog31]

First of all, maybe Papelbon should keep his mouth shut for once in his career. He has no right saying that he should be the one closing in Yankee Stadium. The most disrespectful thing about his words, was when he said, "We've both earned that right; us, by winning the World Series and having the opportunity of having our manager there and our team being represented, and Mariano by what he's done for this role, we're in Yankee Stadium and blah, blah, blah. It's not that easy. Everybody thinks it's a cut and dry answer, but it's not."

Both earned that right? I don't think so. When it's Fenway Park's last season, and assuming Papelbon is still there, he can close that All-Star game out. Papelbon hasn't earned any right to close out the final All-Star game at Yankee Stadium. Not only because of the fact that it's Rivera's home, but because Rivera's numbers are so much better than Papelbon's (or anyone elses for that matter).

Rivera: 4-3/1.06 ERA/50 K's/23 SV/0 BLSV
Papelbon: 3-3/2.43/51 K's/28 SV/4 BLSV

So, I would definetly take Rivera before I take Papelbon.

Second, he won the World Series. Ok, so that makes one for Papelbon and four for Rivera. When he saves as many playoff games and World Series as Rivera, give me a call.

Yankee Stadium, blah blah blah? How disrespectful can one player be? I don't care who you are, when you think of ball parks, the first thing that comes to mind is Yankee Stadium. All the history, all the championships, all the players. It's the final year. Rivera has every right to close out the final All-Star game.

Everyone thinks it's a cut and dry answer, but it's not? I beg to differ. If anyone other than Rivera would be the closer, I would pick Joe Nathan. He's been unbelieveable so far this year, but I would still pick Rivera. Papelbon's numbers are decent, but Rivera has just been damn near unhittable this season. His ERA is almost a point and a half lower than Papelbon's, and he hasn't blown one save thus far.

Anyways, I don't know who Papelbon thinks he is, but he has no right suggesting that he should be the closer when his numbers make him probably the fifth best closer in the All-Star game (Rivera, Nathan, Soria, and Frankie Rodriguez) and it's the final All-Star game at Yankee Stadium. Just because Tito Francona (a man I admire very much even though he manages the Sox) is the manager, doesn't mean he's going to get the bid for closer because he asks him. Francona knows who he should pick, and made the right decision in choosing Rivera.

[bob]

Papelbon has done very little to deseve it. He probably wouldnt be my second choice either. The only reason he seems to think he should get it is because he was on the WS team last year (And the 4-0 walkover hardly required fantastic closing to win...)

[Westlake]

Papelbon has done very little to deseve it. He probably wouldnt be my second choice either. The only reason he seems to think he should get it is because he was on the WS team last year (And the 4-0 walkover hardly required fantastic closing to win...)

You mean except that he had 3 saves in those 4 games -- 2 of those saves being 1-run games? (Which is actually better than Mariano has ever done in the World Series saves-wise)

I'm not at all surprised it's mostly Yankee fans that are appalled and outraged by this nothing of a story.

[DoubleX]

You mean except that he had 3 saves in those 4 games -- 2 of those saves being 1-run games? (Which is actually better than Mariano has ever done in the World Series saves-wise)

I'm not at all surprised it's mostly Yankee fans that are appalled and outraged by this nothing of a story.

I don't get why performance in the WS last year should have anything to do with what happens in the All Star game this year? Should the Red Sox just play the NL Team?

Papelbon's best argument, IMO, would be that with home field advantage on the line, and that being something that could realistically concern the Sox, it might make sense for Francona to go with his guy - let Papelbon have an impact on something that could impact his team.

Anyway, like I said above, my biggest issue is that Papelbon put in Rivera/Papelbon terms, ignoring the merits of Nathan, Soria, and Rodriguez, who all might be more deserving that Papelbon based strictly on this year.

[Westlake]

I don't get why performance in the WS last year should have anything to do with what happens in the All Star game this year? Should the Red Sox just play the NL Team?

When did I say that and when did I say that Papelbon should be closing out the All-Star game? I really don't care, since it's the all-star game and all, but if you look at the poll I voted for Rivera and stated earlier that I would pick him.

I was dismissing what 'bob' said about what Papelbon doing in the WS not being a big deal (or at least that's what I got from it).

[DoubleX]

When did I say that and when did I say that Papelbon should be closing out the All-Star game? I really don't care, since it's the all-star game and all, but if you look at the poll I voted for Rivera and stated earlier that I would pick him.

I was dismissing what 'bob' said about what Papelbon doing in the WS not being a big deal (or at least that's what I got from it).

And when did I ascribe anything to you personally? I was just following up on your comment (which did make less-than subtle assumptions about Yankee fan bias).

[Westlake]

And when did I ascribe anything to you personally? I was just following up on your comment (which did make less-than subtle assumptions about Yankee fan bias).

When you quote my post it kind of looks like you're responding to what, don't you think? Isn't that what the 'quote post' function is for? So people know you're responding to that comment?

[DoubleX]

When you quote my post it kind of looks like you're responding to what, don't you think? Isn't that what the 'quote post' function is for? So people know you're responding to that comment?

I don't think so. I think it can be a reference point to continue on the conversation that involves a number of people and not just two people. I think what is said in the subsequent post is more telling of the intent of quoting. In this case, you mentioned WS performance, following up on bob, which got me thinking about why WS performance is relevance, so it seemed logical to follow your post in that chain of conversation. Moreover, Papelbon mentioned WS performance as why he's deserving, thus I was using your post to go back to his comments, which are the impetus here.

Nonetheless, your post did imply that his WS performance was important - why else mention what he did in it? If you don't think it's relevant to mention that information, why mention it at all in a thread about closing the All Star Game? With that in mind, it seemed fair to followup and question why WS performance is important for the All Star game, given that you mentioned the specific performance.

[Senor Octobre]

I don't get it. Paps said something stupid, he backed off and deferred to Mo. End of story. People just have nothing better to do other than blast him about it. Tito and Varitek were both just like "What are you talking about?". I agree that this is a non-issue.

[bakes781]

Papelbon's best argument, IMO, would be that with home field advantage on the line, and that being something that could realistically concern the Sox, it might make sense for Francona to go with his guy - let Papelbon have an impact on something that could impact his team.

Anyway, like I said above, my biggest issue is that Papelbon put in Rivera/Papelbon terms, ignoring the merits of Nathan, Soria, and Rodriguez, who all might be more deserving that Papelbon based strictly on this year.

I think that is exactly Pap's argument. The All Star game isn't just an exhibition game any more thanks to Selig. Like it or not home field in the WS is potentially a big prize to be had. I'd rather he be confident in his own abilities to get it done than to say no there's someone better qualified than me.

I imagine the question was in context between only he & Mariano, but I don't know for sure as I haven't even seen the comment.

With all that being said I do believe Rivera will close the game out assuming the AL is leading into the 9th.

[Westlake]

Nonetheless, your post did imply that his WS performance was important - why else mention what he did in it? If you don't think it's relevant to mention that information, why mention it at all in a thread about closing the All Star Game? With that in mind, it seemed fair to followup and question why WS performance is important for the All Star game, given that you mentioned the specific performance.

Did you not see what post I quoted? The poster said he didn't do anything fantastic in the World Series. I responded by saying he did VERY well. That's it. Clear now?

[DoubleX]

Did you not see what post I quoted? The guy acting like he didn't do anything fantastic in the World Series? I didn't mention it, that guy did. I responded by saying he did VERY well. Clear now?

Is this tangent really worth it? I'm still not ascribing anything to you, just explaining why I thought asking about WS performance was relevant in light of your post which mentioned the specific WS performance. I was following up on your comments which provided the stimulus. There was no questioning or attacking you. Clear now? Just let it go dude...

[Imgran]

Frankly, if those two want to take it to the media, I'd say fine, heck with that, and give the ball to Soria -- who might be the most underrated pitcher in baseball right now.

[DoubleX]

Frankly, if those two want to take it to the media, I'd say fine, heck with that, and give the ball to Soria -- who might be the most underrated pitcher in baseball right now.

Agreed - Soria is having a fantastic year and no one is really noticing. However, if you're Francona, and you're thinking about how the outcome of the All Star game might eventually have an effect on your team, would you want Soria, a young guy from a team with no shot at the WS on the mound with the game on the line, or someone you know very well and trust like Papelbon?

[Westlake]

Is this tangent really worth it? I'm still not ascribing anything to you, just explaining why I thought asking about WS performance was relevant in light of your post which mentioned the specific WS performance. I was following up on your comments which provided the stimulus. There was no questioning or attacking you. Clear now? Just let it go dude...

Me let it go. Haha. Sorry for hounding you.

Anyway, this is a non-issue to me and most Sox fans and a huge issue to most Yankee fans. The rest of MLB probably doesn't care. I don't even think Twins fans care than he's shunning Nathan because they're already undeservedly used it.

And frankly, who cares? It's the all-star game, which people seem to dismiss as stupid anyway.

[DoubleX]

Me let it go. Haha. Sorry for hounding you.

Anyway, this is a non-issue to me and most Sox fans and a huge issue to most Yankee fans. The rest of MLB probably doesn't care. I don't even think Twins fans care than he's shunning Nathan because they're already undeservedly used it.

And frankly, who cares? It's the all-star game, which people seem to dismiss as stupid anyway.

Because it's something to talk about while there are no games? :) Personally, I think it underscores an interesting issue of whether the game should count for anything. With WS home field being something that could realistically impact the Sox, I would think that if given the preference, Francona would want his guy being on the mound with the game on the line. I think that's a very valid argument, much better than what Papelbon said (not you :)) of being deserving based on last year's WS.

I also thought it was good way to delve into the other AL All Star closers. As I said, I was more bothered by how it was framed as a Papelbon/Rivera issue, ignoring the three other very viable candidates.

[Imgran]

Agreed - Soria is having a fantastic year and no one is really noticing. However, if you're Francona, and you're thinking about how the outcome of the All Star game might eventually have an effect on your team, would you want Soria, a young guy from a team with no shot at the WS on the mound with the game on the line, or someone you know very well and trust like Papelbon?

Actually considering their numbers, Soria would be my second choice if Rivera's unavailable and a discrete tap on the shoulder fron Girardi and a polite request not to wear down his 39 year old franchise closer with a meaningless inning of work would be all it took to see Soria in over Pap.

Papelbon has become too fastball-happy -- he thinks he can kill everyone with his heat and because he gets away with it so often it's unlike he'll learn. He's not as good as he could be because of that.

Earth to Pap: Once upon a time you threw a split...

[DoubleX]

Actually considering their numbers, Soria would be my second choice if Rivera's unavailable and a discrete tap on the shoulder fron Girardi and a polite request not to wear down his 39 year old franchise closer with a meaningless inning of work would be all it took to see Soria in over Pap.

Papelbon has become too fastball-happy -- he thinks he can kill everyone with his heat and because he gets away with it so often it's unlike he'll learn. He's not as good as he could be because of that.

Earth to Pap: Once upon a time you threw a split...

Now that you mention it, I did notice in the little I've seen of Papelbon this year, that he seems to go with the high fastball more. Maybe it's easier on his arm to not throw the split so much?

[Mattingly]

The question was answered with Papelbon in the 8th. K-Rod got his props by going for 2 batters. Then the Bleacher Creatures (even if they had to sorely overpay for tickets) went wild as they heard Sandman's music with 1 out in the 9th.

Now if only the game had ended in the 9th when there were bases loaded, no outs. A few friends of mine said that since this was Yankee Stadium and no runs were scored, that wasn't unexpected! :D :o :( :hp