Buddy Myer

[Cowtipper]

Mostly a second baseman, Buddy Myer hit .303 with 2131 hits in his career. He was twice an All-Star and he led the league in stolen bases in 1928 and in average and times on base in 1935. Despite being a great defensive player and solid offensively, he only received one vote for the Hall of Fame.

Myer had a great eye at the plate, walking 965 times and striking out only 428 times. Although he had an OPS+ of only 108, he was still a very good hitter who finished with a .389 on base percentage and a .286 postseason batting average.

Statistically, the three most similar players to him are Billy Herman, Arky Vaughan and Joe Sewell - all in the Hall of Fame. The Baseball Page ranks as the 27th best second baseman of all time.

So...should Buddy Myer be in the Hall of Fame?

[dgarza]

He's a No, with a MAYBE rising.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Yes, he is a HOFer.

He's the identical player to Billy Herman. I am not convinced that Billy Herman was indeed better; there are arguments to be made in favor of Myer. Nonetheless, I can't see how, when you have two similar players that are such close contemporaries, I cannot see how you can put one in and leave the other out.

Herman's in the HOF because he played on more prominent teams (Cubs, Dodgers), and has a long career as a coach and manager after his playing career was over. Myer played most of his career for the Washington Senators, a team that was viewed as a loser (although Myer's Senators played in two of their three World Series). I recognize that players from the Herman-Myer era have been seriously over-honored, but I advocate Myer's induction (along with Stan Hack's).

[jjpm74]

During the SOC project, I did quite a bit of research on 2nd basemen. Buddy Myer was good enough to edge out a couple of other guys for 10th best 2nd baseman outside of the HOF. He was the 12th round 119th overall pick. He's around 26th all time at his position. That puts him in the gray area, and sits him better than a few 2nd basemen in Cooperstown, but on the outside unless you favor a HOF of 300+. Better than average defense and he'd be over the line. As it stands, his defense wasn't bad, but it wasn't good either.

[Paul Wendt]

He's the identical player to Billy Herman. I am not convinced that Billy Herman was indeed better; there are arguments to be made in favor of Myer. Nonetheless, I can't see how, when you have two similar players that are such close contemporaries, I cannot see how you can put one in and leave the other out.
Bill James made that argument, probably in the Historical Baseball Abstract (1985, 1988). In the New BJ HBA (2001) he revised that remarkably, ranking Herman well above Myers. I don't know the basis for revision in his new rating system (win shares) or subjective judgments.
Maybe he addresses the point. No time to look now. Good night.

[Cougar]

I would definitely put him in. Herman's probably better than him by a very small margin, but I don't think Herman's a particularly borderline HOFer. Myer was underappreciated playing in Washington in a bad ballpark for hitters. He's very high on my list of players that ought to go in.

[KCGHOST]

I don't see any reason to put him in the HoF. He had a nice career, but Billy Herman is somewhat better and not the strongest of HoFers.

[dgarza]

Bill James made that argument, probably in the Historical Baseball Abstract (1985, 1988). In the New BJ HBA (2001) he revised that remarkably, ranking Herman well above Myers.
I'm glad to hear James "corrected" that.

Herman and Myer do have some very similar traditional rate stats :

Herman - 112 - OPS+ - 108 - Myer
Herman - .304 - AVG - .303 - Myer
Herman - .367 - OBP - .389 - Myer
Herman - .407 - SLG - .406 - Myer
Herman - 198 - 162/H - 180 - Myer
Herman - 98 - 162/R - 99 - Myer
Herman - 4 - 162/HR - 3 - Myer
Herman - 71 - 162/RBI - 72 - Myer
Herman - 6 - 162/SB - 13 - Myer
Herman - 62 - 162/BB - 81 - Myer
Herman - 36 - 162/K - 36 - Myer

I can see from here that they seem to be similar players.
Myer had a better OBP and stole more bases (although his success rate was not always very good [no data on Herman]).
Also, Myer may of had 1 or 2 seasons that were a little bit better than any of Herman's seaosns.
Although these are very stong and understandable similarity agruments, the more advanced measures show Herman having more in number of very good seasons.

Top 5 OPS+
Herman : 135, 133, 129, 128, 128
Myer : 138, 137, 120, 115, 109 (half-season)

Top 5 Simple RC
Herman : 120, 116, 107, 105, 97
Myer : 125, 92, 90, 87, 85

Career / Top 5 BRAR
Herman : 511 / 63, 58, 55, 54, 50
Myer : 436 / 69, 49, 44, 35, 31

Career / Top 5 BRAA
Herman : 258 / 44, 37,37, 35, 30
Myer : 201 / 51, 35, 26, 18, 12

Career / Top 5 FRAR
Herman : 603 / 65, 63, 58, 58, 54
Myer : 394 / 47, 46, 40, 33, 28

Career / Top 5 FRAA
Herman : 85 / 21, 20, 18, 17, 10
Myer : 46 / 13, 6, 5, 3, 2

Career / Top 5 WARP1
Herman : 121.6 / 13.1, 12.6, 12.2, 10.0, 9.9
Myer : 90.9 / 9.8, 9.6, 9.0, 7.8, 6.8

Career / Top 5 WARP2
Herman : 106.7 / 11.4, 10.9, 10.5, 9.0, 8.8
Myer : 72.8 / 9.6, 7.9, 6.7, 5.4, 5.3

Career / Top 5 WARP3
Herman : 110.5 / 11.9, 11.4, 10.9, 9.4, 9.0
Myer : 75.8 / 10.1, 8.2, 7.0, 5.5, 5.4


I will note that my judgement of the 2 players was not based on the RAR/RAA/WARP measures, but looking at these measures does reaffirm my initial judgement.

Some may even give Herman WWII credit.

Also, I like Del Pratt better than Myer.

[jalbright]

There are two major things that I think caused the change of Bill James in likening Myer to Herman. The first is, the first time around, he didn't account for Herman's loss of two years to wartime service (Myers retired after the 1941 season at age 37, Herman missed 1944 and 1945 and played well in 1946 though collapsed in 1947). The second is that when he ran the defensive numbers for win shares, Herman comes up as a B+ second baseman, Myer a B- (and Myer had significant playing time at third). Those two things separate them.

A comparison using win shares, with no wartime credit for Herman:

category....................... Myer Herman
career win shares............. 258 298
place among 2B, career WS.. 21 16
top 3 seasons win shares..... 80 90
place among 2B, top 3 WS.... 27 13
best 5 consecutive Win Shares 115 135
placed among 2B, 5 consec WS 27 12
MVP shares place.............. 326 103
HOF standards place.......... 148 173
Black plus gray ink total..... 51 143
defensive grade, 2B........... B- B+


Myer is close to HOF caliber, though to my mind just a tad shy. Herman is better IMO.

[KCGHOST]

Interesting tidbit of trivia is that Buddy is the only "Myer" in baseball history and his last name is an anagram for another player who is the only player in baseball history with that name.

[jjpm74]

Interesting tidbit of trivia is that Buddy is the only "Myer" in baseball history and his last name is an anagram for another player who is the only player in baseball history with that name.

Are you referring to Jerry Remy by chance (who BTW was also an All Star and a 2nd Baseman)? :D

[Fuzzy Bear]

There are two major things that I think caused the change of Bill James in likening Myer to Herman. The first is, the first time around, he didn't account for Herman's loss of two years to wartime service (Myers retired after the 1941 season at age 37, Herman missed 1944 and 1945 and played well in 1946 though collapsed in 1947). The second is that when he ran the defensive numbers for win shares, Herman comes up as a B+ second baseman, Myer a B- (and Myer had significant playing time at third). Those two things separate them.

A comparison using win shares, with no wartime credit for Herman:

category....................... Myer Herman
career win shares............. 258 298
place among 2B, career WS.. 21 16
top 3 seasons win shares..... 80 90
place among 2B, top 3 WS.... 27 13
best 5 consecutive Win Shares 115 135
placed among 2B, 5 consec WS 27 12
MVP shares place.............. 326 103
HOF standards place.......... 148 173
Black plus gray ink total..... 51 143
defensive grade, 2B........... B- B+


Myer is close to HOF caliber, though to my mind just a tad shy. Herman is better IMO.

On the other hand, Billy Herman's second best season, statistically, is 1943, a season in the middle of WWII where the competition was markedly diluted.

Here are Herman's Offensive Winning Percentages from 1937 (his best season) on:

1937 - .705
1938 - .479
1939 - .615
1940 - .529
1941 - .559
1942 - .515
1943 - .695
1946 - .662
1947 - .176

Is it not unreasonable to suppose that Herman's .695 OWP in 1943 is at least SOMEWHAT artificially inflated by the weaker wartime competition? What would Herman's performance have been in 1943-45 if there had been no war? I suspect that he would have posted OWPs in the low .500s each year, which would have brought him significantly closer to Myer.

I see no reason to discount Myer the way he's been discounted. These guys are SO similar that it is not justifiable for me to say "yes" to Herman, but "no" to Myer.

[jalbright]

Well, fuzzy, you're entitled to your opinion, but I simply don't agree. There's a gap between them, and I happen to think it's reasonable to draw the line in that gap--especially when the gap is widened by wartime credit for Herman.

[sayheykid]

Buddy Myer had better numbers than Rizzuto and nellie fox and played on worse teams look it up. If Nellie fox is a hall of famer than its a crime Buddy Myer is not in. Myer had better numbers in avg., RBI's, and stolen bases. Not running Nellie down he was a great player as was Buddy and both belong in the Hall. What this argument shows is that the veterans comittee has a bias and unless you were Ted williams friend you didn't get in the hall when you should have ala Phil Rizzuto. Just compare the numbers!!!!

[Fuzzy Bear]

Buddy Myer had better numbers than Rizzuto and nellie fox and played on worse teams look it up. If Nellie fox is a hall of famer than its a crime Buddy Myer is not in. Myer had better numbers in avg., RBI's, and stolen bases. Not running Nellie down he was a great player as was Buddy and both belong in the Hall. What this argument shows is that the veterans comittee has a bias and unless you were Ted williams friend you didn't get in the hall when you should have ala Phil Rizzuto. Just compare the numbers!!!!


Fox was a far better defensive player than Myer. In addition, Fox's peak was higher; he won the MVP in 1959, and really did deserve it.

Still Myer was the superior offensive player, and by a lot. Even if you adjust for era, Myer is significantly better with the stick.

[Brad Harris]

Bill James made that argument, probably in the Historical Baseball Abstract (1985, 1988).

Actually, I believe Myer v. Herman is a chapter (or section, at least) of The Politics of Glory (aka Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?) I'm almost certain. I've made it a point to read that book once a year since it's publication and it's time for me to get my hands on a copy and keep the tradition going in 2008.

My own opinion about Myer happens to follow exactly what KCGHOST said. I don't really consider Herman in the top half of Cooperstown second basemen (though he's probably in the 2nd quartile, as opposed to the 1st.) The difference between them may be small, but there's really not a lot of point in adding Myer. In other words, it's not an "injustice" for him not to be there. While that's not necessarily "fair" to Myer, my thinking along these lines could be best expressed by the "pairing" of Phil Rizzuto with Pee Wee Reese. If people are going to use the "they're the same player, therefore one shouldn't be in without the other" argument, then I'd just as soon see neither of them in the Hall of Fame. I think Reese is a marginally better player than Rizzuto and I think Herman is a marginally better player than Myer, but the comparisons make for close enough approximations of their worthiness for election.

jjpm 72 made the remark that Myer would be a good candidate for a Hall of 300 and I'm not entirely sure that's not an appropriate sized institution once you include the active players who will appear on the ballot in the next 10 years and the top 30 guys outside who are already retired. Add the negro leaguers to our 198 ex-MLBers and you're getting awfully close to the 280s, 290s range. Exactly where Myer fits in that kind of queue is questionable, but I can definitely see him in the top 300 greatest players list.

From 1869-2008 you've got fourteen decades of professional baseball. Take the top 25 Japanese Leaguers, the top 50 Negro Leaguers, the top 25 19th Century guys and then an average of 2 players per year in the 20th Century and you've got 300 guys right there. That's an average of the best player per league per season, not quite. Or, think of it another way, take the 20 best players from every decade from the 1880s to the 1990s and you've got 260 guys there. Throw in the 40 best negro leaguers and you've got your 300. The point is that we're thinking of a Hall of 300 players as an institution that's much more enormous than it is at present when that isn't necessarily the case.

Of course, the really important thing isn't the number of players that are inducted, but that (regardless of how many are elected), the best possible candidate is always elected first.