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Cowtipper
07-09-2008, 07:23 PM
Of the 10 players most statistically similar to Gabby Hartnett, seven of them are not in the Hall of Fame. Those seven players are:

Vern Stephens
Joe Torre
Miguel Tejada
Brett Boone
Travis Fryman
Vinny Casilla
Dante Bichette

Which, if any, should be inducted?

Here are notable achievements, black ink, grey ink, and similar Hall of Famers for each:

Vern Stephens:

8-time AL All-Star (1943-1946 & 1948-1951)
AL Home Runs Leader (1945)
3-time AL RBI Leader (1944, 1948 & 1950)
20-Home Run Seasons: 6 (1943-1945 & 1948-1950)
30-Home Run Seasons: 2 (1949 & 1950)
100 RBI Seasons: 4 (1944 & 1948-1950)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 3 (1948-1950)
Black ink: 18
Grey ink: 141
Similar Hall of Famers: Gabby Hartnett, Tony Lazzeri, Bobby Doerr, Bill Dickey

Joe Torre:

1961 Topps All-Star Rookie Team
9-time NL All-Star (1963-1967 & 1970-1973)
NL MVP (1971)
NL Gold Glove Winner (1965/C)
NL Batting Average Leader (1971)
NL Hits Leader (1971)
NL Total Bases Leader (1971)
NL RBI Leader (1971)
20-Home Run Seasons: 6 (1964-1967, 1970 & 1971)
30-Home Run Seasons: 1 (1966)
100 RBI Seasons: 5 (1964, 1966 & 1969-1971)
200 Hits Seasons: 2 (1970 & 1971)
Black ink: 12
Grey ink: 71
Similar Hall of Famers: Bobby Doerr, Gabby Hartnett, Ryne Sandberg, Gary Carter, Bill Dickey

Miguel Tejada:

4-time AL All-Star (2002 & 2004-2006)
AL MVP (2002)
2005 All-Star Game MVP
2-time AL Silver Slugger Award Winner (2004 & 2005)
AL Doubles Leader (2005)
AL RBI Leader (2004)
20-Home Run Seasons: 8 (1999-2006)
30-Home Run Seasons: 4 (2000-2002 & 2004)
100 RBI Seasons: 6 (2000-2004 & 2006)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 4 (2000-2002 & 2004)
200 Hits Seasons: 3 (2002, 2004 & 2006)
Black ink: 11
Grey ink: 71
Similar Hall of Famers: Gabby Hartnett

Brett Boone:

3-time All-Star (1998, 2001 & 2003)
4-time Gold Glove Winner (1998/NL & 2002-2004/AL)
2-time AL Silver Slugger Award Winner (2001 & 2003)
AL RBI Leader (2001)
20-Home Run Seasons: 6 (1998, 1999 & 2001-2004)
30-Home Run Seasons: 2 (2001 & 2003)
100 RBI Seasons: 3 (2001-2003)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 3 (1999, 2001 & 2003)
200 Hits Seasons: 1 (2001)
Black ink: 4
Grey ink: 39

Travis Fryman:

5-time AL All-Star (1992-1994, 1996 & 2000)
AL Gold Glove Winner (2000/3B)
AL Silver Slugger Award Winner (1992/SS)
2-time AL At Bats Leader (1992 & 1994)
20-Home Run Seasons: 7 (1991-1993, 1996-1998 & 2000)
100 RBI Seasons: 3 (1996, 1997 & 2000)
Black ink: 2
Grey ink: 20

Vinny Castilla:

2-time NL All-Star (1995 & 1998)
3-time NL Silver Slugger Award Winner (1995, 1997 & 1998)
NL RBI Leader (2004)
20-Home Run Seasons: 8 (1995-1999, 2001, 2003 & 2004)
30-Home Run Seasons: 6 (1995-1999 & 2004)
40-Home Run Seasons: 3 (1996-1998)
100 RBI Seasons: 5 (1996-1999 & 2004)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 1 (1998)
200 Hits Seasons: 1 (1998)
Black ink: 5
Grey ink: 73

Dante Bichette:

4-time NL All-Star (1994-1996 & 1998)
NL Silver Slugger Award Winner (1995)
NL Slugging Percentage Leader (1995)
NL At Bats Leader (1994)
2-time NL Hits Leader (1995 & 1998)
NL Total Bases Leader (1995)
NL Home Runs Leader (1995)
NL RBI Leader (1995)
20-Home Run Seasons: 8 (1993-2000)
30-Home Run Seasons: 3 (1995, 1996 & 1999)
40-Home Run Seasons: 1 (1995)
100 RBI Seasons: 5 (1995-1999)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 3 (1995, 1996 & 1999)
200 Hits Seasons: 1 (1998)
Black ink: 19
Grey ink: 81
Colorado Express
07-09-2008, 07:33 PM
Absolutely none of them. I'll give Tejada a very outside chance should he be able to pile on 5-6 more very good-to-great years.
1905 Giants
07-09-2008, 07:42 PM
I've heard Torre mentioned in some discussions, but I don't know about that, but he'll probably get in as a manager.

Stephens had some good seasons, but once again, I don't know.

More research will be required before I vote, however.

Post - Mel Ott
Senor Octobre
07-09-2008, 08:02 PM
Obviously between Stephens and Torre, I'll go with Torre.
CTaka
07-09-2008, 10:21 PM
Obviously between Stephens and Torre, I'll go with Torre.

The big difference between Hartnett and Torre is that Torre played 41% of his games at catcher. Hartnett played 98% of his games behind the dish. That is a big difference. Plus in Torre's best offensive season by far, 1971, he never played a single game at catcher.

Secondly, Torre received a fielding grade of C from Bill James compared to an A+ for Hartnett. Gabby has a legitimate claim as the greatest defensive C of all time; he's certainly on the short list.

If Torre (or the others on the list) played the majority of their games at catcher, then I'd be inclined to think they may merit inclusion in the Hall. Hartnett accomplishing his feats as a full-time catcher is what gives him a very well deserved plaque in Cooperstown.
Senor Octobre
07-10-2008, 07:02 AM
The big difference between Hartnett and Torre is that Torre played 41% of his games at catcher. Hartnett played 98% of his games behind the dish. That is a big difference. Plus in Torre's best offensive season by far, 1971, he never played a single game at catcher.

Secondly, Torre received a fielding grade of C from Bill James compared to an A+ for Hartnett. Gabby has a legitimate claim as the greatest defensive C of all time; he's certainly on the short list.

If Torre (or the others on the list) played the majority of their games at catcher, then I'd be inclined to think they may merit inclusion in the Hall. Hartnett accomplishing his feats as a full-time catcher is what gives him a very well deserved plaque in Cooperstown.

I never said that Torre was better than Hartnett. The question was, which of these players most similar to Hartnett deserves induction. Torre was the answer.
KCGHOST
07-10-2008, 08:05 AM
I guess I wouldn't vote for any of them but Tejada could change my mind. The BBWAA probably will not elect him anyway as he one of the players who lied about his age and is linked to the PED's thing.
RuthMayBond
07-10-2008, 08:48 AM
The question was, which of these players most similar to Hartnett deserves induction. Torre was the answer.The other question is, are any of those players truly most similar to Hartnett? :think:
Fuzzy Bear
07-10-2008, 09:30 AM
The other question is, are any of those players truly most similar to Hartnett? :think:


Not really, but guys like Stephens and Torre are kind of unique as well.

Torre should be in as a player. I'd vote "yes" on Stephens as well, but there's a case against him, so I'll concede that he's borderline.
Brad Harris
07-10-2008, 10:37 AM
Not really, but guys like Stephens and Torre are kind of unique as well.

Torre should be in as a player. I'd vote "yes" on Stephens as well, but there's a case against him, so I'll concede that he's borderline.

Well said.
Paul Wendt
07-10-2008, 11:21 AM
FYI the other three on Hartnett's list are Bill Dickey, Bobby Doerr, and Tony Lazzeri and they are all near the top of that list led by Dickey.

Gabby Hartnett
1. Bill Dickey (924) *
2. Vern Stephens (913)
3. Bobby Doerr (901) *
4. Tony Lazzeri (883) *
5. Joe Torre (883)
6. Miguel Tejada (876)
7. Bret Boone (863)
8. Travis Fryman (859)
9. Vinny Castilla (845)
10. Dante Bichette (841)

What about Dickey's list?

Bill Dickey
1. Gabby Hartnett (924) *
2. Tony Lazzeri (909) *
3. Vern Stephens (895)
4. Bobby Doerr (892) *

5. Miguel Tejada (864)
6. Ernie Lombardi (862) *
7. Carl Furillo (856)
8. Joe Torre (853)
9. Nomar Garciaparra (851)
10. Bill Madlock (850)

So the system roughly equates two of the best catchers, who were good batters during a great time for batting but not yet dominated by homeruns, with long careers for catchers.
Whom does it pick out as similar? Naturally, some second-tier infielders with medium-long careers. And down around 850, not very similar, Dante Bichette for Hartnett, Carl Furillo for Dickey: third-tier outfielders with medium-long careers.