Alexander vs Johnson vs Mathewson vs Young

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

I've always considered Grover Cleveland Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Cy Young to be the four best pitchers in early MLB history. How do you rank those four and why?

Do you think there is anyone else who deserves mention among them? For the sake of the thread, do not include anyone who played after 1930.

Finally, what is the story with Grover Cleveland "Old Pete" Alexander's name? Obviously his given name was Grover Cleveland, but where did Pete come in? Is that what he was referred to as by friends/teammates? Was it a commonly used nickname?

[brett]

I've always considered Grover Cleveland Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Cy Young to be the four best pitchers in early MLB history. How do you rank those four and why?

Do you think there is anyone else who deserves mention among them? For the sake of the thread, do not include anyone who played after 1930.

Finally, what is the story with Grover Cleveland "Old Pete" Alexander's name? Obviously his given name was Grover Cleveland, but where did Pete come in? Is that what he was referred to as by friends/teammates? Was it a commonly used nickname?

First off, I would NOT include Mordecai Brown with these guys, but suspect you will see some people do so. It seems very likely that he hugely benefitted from his defenses being excellent.

Second, I have more confidence that Alexander and Johnson could have been successful with the live ball because of the kind of stuff they threw. Mathewson is close but behind Alexander in almost every statistical method of evaluation, and his one edge is in post season performance. Young is the hardest to rate, and while his peak might have been aided by his defenses, overall his defenses were average.

Johnson pitched nearly 6000 innings. He DID struggle at the time of the introduction of the live ball with his PRIME being 1910-1919 and including 7 years with a 170 ERA+ (tied for first with the "other" Johnson), but it is likely that this was not due to failure to adjust.

In 1920 he suddenly dropped off but '24 and '25 were both excellent live ball years and '20 appears to have involved injury problems. If that is so, and he still had lingering effects in '21, then '22-'26 are right in line with a normal decline (power pitchers almost always lose their K-ability in the mid 30s). He actually won the MVP in '24.

I think that with Ruth, Cobb, Mays, and Wagner, Johnson is probably the fifth PLAYER who might be argued as the greatest player at any position of all time.

Alexander had some excellent live ball years as well, and lost most of '18 and I believe about a quarter of '19 due to WWI service. That could have put him up aroung 5600 innings, and he almost certainly would have outwon Walter probably around 420. Grove almost completely lost his K's later in his career.

So it is interesting to compare Walter and Grover.

Walter-
More dominant: 7 170 ERA+ seasons.
Kept up his strikeout stuff a lot longer
More IP: 5900+

Grove-
A little better post live-ball
Would have outwon and nearly matched Walter in IP without time lost.

[jaxxr]

Walter Johnson is perhaps, the best pitcher ever, no question pre 1930.

Ed Walsh ( 1904-1917 ) never gets much ink, he did not have an overly long career, however, was quite awesome for some time.

He is the last 40 game winner, he hurled 464 innings in 1908, the most thrown since the major leagues started. He has the all time best career ERA of any pticher ever.

ERA +, ranks him as the best of any pitcher in the HOF, Adjusted ERA + places him 3rd, behind only Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove, among HOF pitchers.
In 1910 Big Ed had a remarkable year, he led the league in ERA with a stunning 1.27, he threw 7 shutouts, completed 33 of his 36 starts for a 92% CG rate, yet he was 18-20 W-L !
Among the many 1-0 losses he suffered throughout his career, was a perfect game thrown by Addie Joss against him !

Ed may not have been the absolute best pitcher ever, however it seems odd, he is rarely in any discussion about the best, just like he was not mentioned in the title of this thread.

[brett]

Walter Johnson is perhaps, the best pitcher ever, no question pre 1930.

Ed Walsh ( 1904-1917 ) never gets much ink, he did not have an overly long career, however, was quite awesome for some time.

He is the last 40 game winner, he hurled 464 innings in 1908, the most thrown since the major leagues started. He has the all time best career ERA of any pticher ever.

ERA +, ranks him as the best of any pitcher in the HOF, Adjusted ERA + places him 3rd, behind only Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove, among HOF pitchers.
In 1910 Big Ed had a remarkable year, he led the league in ERA with a stunning 1.27, he threw 7 shutouts, completed 33 of his 36 starts for a 92% CG rate, yet he was 18-20 W-L !
Among the many 1-0 losses he suffered throughout his career, was a perfect game thrown by Addie Joss against him !

Ed may not have been the absolute best pitcher ever, however it seems odd, he is rarely in any discussion about the best, just like he was not mentioned in the title of this thread.


Walsh you may know was a legal spitballer, or "squirtballer". The arm strain shortened these guys careers.

Using BBPro's DERA adjusted for defense, here some of the tops 5 year peaks for early pitchers adjusted to a 4.00 baseline:

Walter Johnson: 2.43
Alexander: 2.68*
Waddell: 2.79
Mathewson: 2.82
Vance: 2.87
Walsh: 3.02
M. Brown: 3.06
Nichols: 3.06
Clarkson: 3.22
Russie: 3.27
Reulbach: 3.27

And their IP average for those 5 years:
Walter Johnson: 349
Alexander: 350 1/3*
Waddell: 317
Mathewson: 320 1/3
Vance: 252 1/3
Walsh: 371
M. Brown: 292
Nichols: 370 1/3
Clarkson: 543 1/3
Russie: 501 1/3
Reulbach: 252 1/3

*partial war years bypassed

[willshad]

How does Eddie Plank compare to these guys? it appears as if he was a notch below them. I dont know much about early century players but if i had to guess Id say that those 4 guys were comparable to Clemens/Maddux/Johnson/Pedro, and Plank was like the Tom Glavine of the time. Am i correct??

[yanks0714]

I've always considered Grover Cleveland Alexander, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Cy Young to be the four best pitchers in early MLB history. How do you rank those four and why?

Do you think there is anyone else who deserves mention among them? For the sake of the thread, do not include anyone who played after 1930.

Finally, what is the story with Grover Cleveland "Old Pete" Alexander's name? Obviously his given name was Grover Cleveland, but where did Pete come in? Is that what he was referred to as by friends/teammates? Was it a commonly used nickname?

Just those 4: Johnson, Alexander, Young, Mathewson

[Victory Faust]

I've got to go with Walter. The teams behind him were terrible, and yet he still did what he did. I know that's not exactly a new observation, but it's a true one.

[Brad Harris]

1. Big Train
2. Ol' Pete
3. The Christian Gentleman
4. Cyclone

I personally have Kid Nichols, not Plank, Waddell or Walsh as the 5th best pre-1930 pitcher.

I also think there's a small gap between Alexander and Mathewson and a fairly noticeable gap between Young and Nichols (or whomever the 5th-best is.) In short, no one else really belongs in the discussion with this four.

Add Grove (I'd slide him in at #2 on my list) and you've got the top pre-WWII pitchers, which covers an awful lot of territory.

[STLCards2]

How does Eddie Plank compare to these guys? it appears as if he was a notch below them. I dont know much about early century players but if i had to guess Id say that those 4 guys were comparable to Clemens/Maddux/Johnson/Pedro, and Plank was like the Tom Glavine of the time. Am i correct??

I'd agree with that idea to some degree. Very good every year for a long time-ocassionaly great, but never as consistantly great as his powerhouse conteps. I have Plank ranked higher than Glavine, but a pretty good comp. overall. I would throw Mike Mussina and Fergie Jenkins into this group as well.