What Do You See & What Would You Do?

[Chris O'Leary]

This came up in another thread, and it's such a big deal that I thought it deserved its own thread...

The clip below is of a player who IS on my 13YO son's team. However, I have NOTHING to do with this swing. The boy goes to a private instructor and I have been totally hands-off on his swing as a result.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting__Youth_RT_1B_001.gif

Just to be clear, I HATE what I see in the clip above (which is his game swing, not a drill). That is because I see...

- Bat Drag
- Squishing the bug
- A dead lower half
- A lack of a weight shift

...as well as a lack of results during games.

I am actively trying to get the instructor to change what he teaches and to get the dad to recognize that this isn't working. The hard part is that the kid admittedly smacks the ball in BP. However, nobody seems to have noticed that he doesn't hit very well in games (maybe .250 and little power) due to the bat drag.

I'd be interested in what you see in the clip. I would also like to know how you would handle this situation...

1. How would you talk to the dad?
2. How would you talk to the instructor?

The instructor and I are friends and have talked hitting in the past. However, he is a former linear guy and I think he has gone with the wrong rotational hitting guru.

[Stealth]

Can you just show him the video clip? It's pretty obvious the kid has a terible swing. Show the kid and the dad a comparison clip with him and a MLB player - if that does not work nothing will.

[Chris O'Leary]

Can you just show him the video clip? It's pretty obvious the kid has a terible swing. Show the kid and the dad a comparison clip with him and a MLB player - if that does not work nothing will.

Showing him the clip is the first thing I was going to try, but I'm not convinced it's going to work.

I think the side by side comparison might work better.

[JJA]

My general policy when coaching is to bring this up with the initial parents meeting at the beginning of the year. I ask the parents to talk to me if their child is taking private lessons. I also tell the parents that I intend to make changes to their childs swings to help them improve and to please let me know if they have a problem with that. Furthermore, at the first practice I always film the entire team hitting and make a DVD for each child to watch where I critique the swings of each player honestly and compare them side by side to MLB swings which I also put on the DVD. (This was motivated by ssarge who typically gives handouts from RVP for the players to see themselves side by side with the pros.)

Usually some parents will tell me they don't want me messing with the swings in which case I certainly won't. You don't want to make the child have to choose between parent and coach. That child/parent relationship is way more important than baseball or softball will ever be. The parents are inevitably wrong, but that's the way it goes. There are always some players that are eager to learn because very few coaches actually do teach hitting in a meaningful way. I concentrate on the kids who want to learn and don't worry about the rest.

Good luck - JJA

[mudvnine]

2. How would you talk to the instructor?

The instructor and I are friends and have talked hitting in the past. However, he is a former linear guy and I think he has gone with the wrong rotational hitting guru.

Chris, there seems to be something disingenuous here when you say that you and the instructor are friends and "have talked hitting in the past", but yet you want to know how to talk to him?

We have seen this same thread numerous times over from you, just with a different hook; I think you've made it perfectly clear (to ad nauseum) that you don't agree with or like Mike's work and that's fine, but how about we put an end to the continual sniping that teaches nothing but how to start a flame-throwing thread? :mad:

[azmatsfan]

With the kid's hitting instructor it's OK to talk in genral terms about philosophies on the MLB hitting mechanics, but I'd avoid specific comments about this kid's terrible swing. Most likely the instructor will just get defensive.

I'd definitely have a serious discussion with the boy's dad. Let him know your experience (if he doesn't already know) and explain to him what you see wrong with the swing and what you'd like to do to fix it. Show him the video. If the dad still resists there not much you can do other than keep him at the bottom of the order. He may bet a few slap hits in games, but that'll be about it.

[Chris O'Leary]

We have seen this same thread numerous times over from you, just with a different hook; I think you've made it perfectly clear (to ad nauseum) that you don't agree with or like Mike's work and that's fine, but how about we put an end to the continual sniping that teaches nothing but how to start a flame-throwing thread? :mad:

First, I started this thread because in another thread some people were under the impression that I had taught this kid his swing.

Second, I don't care who the guru is or what they teach. What I care about are results, and I know that different people can get different results from the same guru. However, this approach clearly isn't working with my hitter.

Third, I left the guru's name out of the thread precisely to avoid the sniping issue.

Finally, while my friend and I agree on probably 80 percent of hitting, I think he is blind to some key issues like bat drag, and I honestly don't know the best way to get my point across.

[mudvnine]

First, I started this thread because in another thread some people were under the impression that I had taught this kid his swing.

In the other thread I think you stated pretty clearly that you were NOT his instructor and I don't think another thread was needed to reenforce that fact.

Second, I don't care who the guru is or what they teach. What I care about are results, and I know that different people can get different results from the same guru. However, this approach clearly isn't working with my hitter.

Since you know the instructor personally, do all of his hitters look like this or is this kid the exception? If all his hitters look like this, then he definitely has more instruction problems then just bat drag, if this kid is the exception then I'm sure your friend is frustrated and my just let you take over to see what you can do with the kid if you simply ask.

Third, I left the guru's name out of the thread precisely to avoid the sniping issue.

You might have left it out, but you're not fooling anyone who's been here awhile. Why say you "think he has gone with the wrong rotational hitting guru" and not just say you think your friend is giving improper instruction?

Finally, while my friend and I agree on probably 80 percent of hitting, I think he is blind to some key issues like bat drag, and I honestly don't know the best way to get my point across.

As some one stated above, show him the video, or better yet put him in the position of frame #29 or #30 and see if he can generate any type of a swing from that position. Then put him in the same spot of the swing with the form you would like to have his hitter in at that point and let him swing from there . . . more then likely, he will immediately understand what you were trying to say all along about bat drag.


Good luck,
Mud

[FiveFrameSwing]

Finally, while my friend and I agree on probably 80 percent of hitting, I think he is blind to some key issues like bat drag, and I honestly don't know the best way to get my point across.

Your friend appears to also be blind to the importance of the lower body momentum mechanics. Chris Yeager places an emphasis on the lower body momentum mechanics for a good reason. Many of this kid's flaws can be traced back to his lack of lower body momentum.

Chris Yeager explains that the #1 source of force generation comes from pushes against the ground.

Why would any instructor put out a product totally void of the #1 source of force generation? It just doesn't seem logical to me that your friend would overlook the #1 source of power generation. Something doesn't sound right.

[Chris O'Leary]

Why would any instructor put out a product totally void of the #1 source of force generation? It just doesn't seem logical to me that your friend would overlook the #1 source of power generation. Something doesn't sound right.

I was concerned in February that this boy seemed overly concerned with providing power from his arms and wrists. His motion then, and to a degree now, was rotate and THEN swing rather than rotate TO swing.

FYI, when I work with my son, and he has problems with his swing, I take his arms out of his swing and get him back to swinging from the core.

However, what you see in the clip could certainly reflect what the boy or his dad are focusing on rather than what the instructor believes. That is one reason why I need to talk to the instructor; to see where the breakdown is occurring.

[Strike1]

Chris,
I'm just getting going with this site! I love it so far............
You might have this on a thread already, that I have not found! So, I was wondering if you could post or send to me a clip of a proper swing in your opinion. It can be anyone......pro, college, kid or anyone.
Just wondering what you like to see in a swing.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I was concerned in February that this boy seemed overly concerned with providing power from his arms and wrists. His motion then, and to a degree now, was rotate and THEN swing rather than rotate TO swing.

FYI, when I work with my son, and he has problems with his swing, I take his arms out of his swing and get him back to swinging from the core.

However, what you see in the clip could certainly reflect what the boy or his dad are focusing on rather than what the instructor believes. That is one reason why I need to talk to the instructor; to see where the breakdown is occurring.

It sounds like you are on the right track.

If you followed Chris Yeager's work then you know that he's documented that the #1 source of force generation comes from efficient pushes against the ground. Think in terms of developing good lower body momentum mechanics. The #2 source of force generation comes from getting good separation of body segments.

If this student is focusing on power generation, then be aware that he has passed over the main two sources of power generation.

What a pitty. He is probably working hard ... but he isn't working smart.

What is sad is that he is seeking the bulk of his power generation from the upper body. That's wrong!

Let me share with you Yeager's thoughts on the upper body.

"The role of the upper body is to remain loose like the end of a whip so that momentum can be transferred. Stiff whip can not transfer momentum.

Beyond relaxation, the upper body really has one main goal and that’s to gain maximum extension during the stride, while maintaining the release angle or the cock of the wrist for as long as possible."

[Mark H]

My general policy when coaching is to bring this up with the initial parents meeting at the beginning of the year. I ask the parents to talk to me if their child is taking private lessons. I also tell the parents that I intend to make changes to their childs swings to help them improve and to please let me know if they have a problem with that. Furthermore, at the first practice I always film the entire team hitting and make a DVD for each child to watch where I critique the swings of each player honestly and compare them side by side to MLB swings which I also put on the DVD. (This was motivated by ssarge who typically gives handouts from RVP for the players to see themselves side by side with the pros.)

Usually some parents will tell me they don't want me messing with the swings in which case I certainly won't. You don't want to make the child have to choose between parent and coach. That child/parent relationship is way more important than baseball or softball will ever be. The parents are inevitably wrong, but that's the way it goes. There are always some players that are eager to learn because very few coaches actually do teach hitting in a meaningful way. I concentrate on the kids who want to learn and don't worry about the rest.

Good luck - JJA

This method won't get you the best won loss method. Hargrave's point about recruiting the best talent is correct in terms of getting you the best won loss record and that success feeds on itself as others are drawn to the success. Who is the best coach with the best approach? Well he may not win more games than the recruiter who is a great team coach, but I think the world would be better off the more coaches we had with JJA's approach. Take a dozen kids with potential and make a difference in their lives and short baseball careers.

[Mark H]

Showing him the clip is the first thing I was going to try, but I'm not convinced it's going to work.

I think the side by side comparison might work better.

Yeah. I doubt the kid or the dad could see what we see in this clip though it looks so obvious to us. I'd give him the synced side by sides (synced to contact) with an elite hitter of your choosing and ask him what he sees. Hopefully he sees, with little if any prompting, something you would like him to notice. Ask him how he would think of working on that. Hopefully he asks you for suggestions of how to work on it. With a little subtlety, you can make him think he figured out the whole thing and planned the course and method of change himself. :)

Or you can go find out what the instructor teaches and work on him. Good luck with that.

[callyjr]

i think you need to sit down with the kid and the instructor and work out the issues the kid is having. end of subject, my question is does the kids parents know your posting him on the internet?

[Swing Coach]

This boy does not have that bad of a swing. He has been taught to rotate, which is good. However, whoever did the teaching has taken his hands out of the equation entirely. The best hitters don't leave their hands back so long that their bottom elbow wins the race. This boy needs to learn what it feels like to use his hands, or he will never be an elite hitter.

[FiveFrameSwing]

This boy does not have that bad of a swing. He has been taught to rotate, which is good. However, whoever did the teaching has taken his hands out of the equation entirely. The best hitters don't leave their hands back so long that their bottom elbow wins the race. This boy needs to learn what it feels like to use his hands, or he will never be an elite hitter.

IMO this boy's lower body momentum mechanics are terrible and are in need of a serious upgrade.

[beemax]

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting__Youth_RT_1B_001.gif

Just to be clear, I HATE what I see in the clip above (which is his game swing, not a drill). That is because I see...


Was this swing taken during a game, or practice? I would find it hard to believe that it would be a game swing due to him wearing shorts. However, if it was during a intrasquad during practice that would explain it too. If it is merely a bp swing in practice I would say it would be much better to see a real game swing.

That being said, he does not load on his back leg at all. He starts basically 50/50 with his weight and starts it forward without any proper load. Couple that with how he drops his bat behind his shoulder before swinging and you have the makings of a very weak swing, especially for a kid who looks like he has good size for his age.

IMO, it wouldn't hurt to try the "tip and rip" with him. He looks like a good candidate for it.

[Shake Zula]

I see virtually no weight transfer, spinning on his back leg, bat drag issues and desperate attempt for 'extension'...

[Chris O'Leary]

Was this swing taken during a game, or practice? I would find it hard to believe that it would be a game swing due to him wearing shorts. However, if it was during a intrasquad during practice that would explain it too. If it is merely a bp swing in practice I would say it would be much better to see a real game swing.

That being said, he does not load on his back leg at all. He starts basically 50/50 with his weight and starts it forward without any proper load. Couple that with how he drops his bat behind his shoulder before swinging and you have the makings of a very weak swing, especially for a kid who looks like he has good size for his age.

IMO, it wouldn't hurt to try the "tip and rip" with him. He looks like a good candidate for it.

This is a BP swing.

While this looks like a drill, this is how he's been swinging in games lately.

He or his dad seem to know something's wrong and may be trying to strip down his swing to the basics, but I don't like the results.

[beemax]

This is a BP swing.

While this looks like a drill, this is how he's been swinging in games lately.

He or his dad seem to know something's wrong and may be trying to strip down his swing to the basics, but I don't like the results.

If this is a swing that they have been consciously working on, I think it is a huge mistake.

Again, his first move is at the ball, meaning he has no load. His first move with the bat is to immediately flatten it out and put it behind his back. That move alone is about the worst I can think of in terms of being short to the ball and creating any sort of power.

It looks pretty obvious that he is trying to slot the elbow early. He certainly does that, but what for? What purpose does that serve? Compare where he has his elbow here compared to Frank Thomas'. Pretty much the same. Now look at the bathead as well as the hands. The kid's has a long way to go. Frank's doesn't. I see no advantage to early elbow slot. IMO it messes with the proper sequence of a swing.

[FiveFrameSwing]

If this is a swing that they have been consciously working on, I think it is a huge mistake.

Again, his first move is at the ball, meaning he has no load. His first move with the bat is to immediately flatten it out and put it behind his back. That move alone is about the worst I can think of in terms of being short to the ball and creating any sort of power.

It looks pretty obvious that he is trying to slot the elbow early. He certainly does that, but what for? What purpose does that serve? Compare where he has his elbow here compared to Frank Thomas'. Pretty much the same. Now look at the bathead as well as the hands. The kid's has a long way to go. Frank's doesn't. I see no advantage to early elbow slot. IMO it messes with the proper sequence of a swing.

The two photos above have the hitters in different points in the swing.

The 'hitter' on the left is at "connection", whereas the hitter on the right is at "bat lag". These are two different points in the swing.

Below is photo of Bonds at "connection". This will allow a better comparison to that of student (who is far off from what Bonds looks like at "connection").

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/BondsAtConnection.jpg

[Twitch5]

FYI, when I work with my son, and he has problems with his swing, I take his arms out of his swing and get him back to swinging from the core.

Chris,

How do you go about doing this? What drills do you prefer?

Twitch5

[beemax]

The two photos above have the hitters in different points in the swing.

That was the whole point of my post. I wanted to show that their elbows were in the same spot at completely different points in the swing.

The 'hitter' on the left is at "connection", whereas the hitter on the right is at "bat lag". These are two different points in the swing.

I wouldn't say that the kid on the left is connected at any point. When you slot your elbow so soon you cannot be connected, IMO.

[Chris O'Leary]

If this is a swing that they have been consciously working on, I think it is a huge mistake.

Again, his first move is at the ball, meaning he has no load. His first move with the bat is to immediately flatten it out and put it behind his back. That move alone is about the worst I can think of in terms of being short to the ball and creating any sort of power.

It looks pretty obvious that he is trying to slot the elbow early. He certainly does that, but what for? What purpose does that serve? Compare where he has his elbow here compared to Frank Thomas'. Pretty much the same. Now look at the bathead as well as the hands. The kid's has a long way to go. Frank's doesn't. I see no advantage to early elbow slot. IMO it messes with the proper sequence of a swing.

I totally agree.

[FiveFrameSwing]

That was the whole point of my post. I wanted to show that their elbows were in the same spot at completely different points in the swing.


But that's the reality of the swing. Take a look at the two photos of Bonds below ... at "connection" and at "bat lag". These are two different portions of the swing for the same batter, yet the rear elbow is pretty much at the same point.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/BondsAtConnection.jpg

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Bonds_at_bat_lag.jpg

[Chris O'Leary]

How do you go about doing this? What drills do you prefer?

I have him put the bat on the side of his shoulder/delt with his back elbow up at the level of his hands. This sets the box. I then tell him to just turn the box. That means to swing from his core and not with his arms.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/BondsAtConnection.jpg

Kind of like this but with the bat on the delt and the elbow starting up at the level of the hands before dropping.

P.S. I think the bat on the side of the shoulder is an Epstein drill, so I obviously don't think Epstein is a moron or entirely worthless. It's just that IMO you can't do this drill by starting out with the elbow in the slot because that can lead to bat drag. I think Epstein may be blind to this because I'm not convinced that he understand bat drag.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I wouldn't say that the kid on the left is connected at any point. When you slot your elbow so soon you cannot be connected, IMO.

The term "connection" is a RVP term, not to be confused with "connected".

[beemax]

But that's the reality of the swing. Take a look at the two photos of Bonds below ... at "connection" and at "bat lag". These are two different portions of the swing for the same batter, yet the rear elbow is pretty much at the same point.


No it is not. The elbow is not is the same spot during these frames. "pretty much at the same point" doesn't cut it for me here. The elbow is moving between what you call connection and bat lag.

[beemax]

The term "connection" is a RVP term, not to be confused with "connected".

I don't even know what RVP means.

[FiveFrameSwing]

No it is not. The elbow is not is the same spot during these frames. "pretty much at the same point" doesn't cut it for me here. The elbow is moving between what you call connection and bat lag.

When you compare two different batters, in two completely different portions of the swing, then "pretty much at the same point" will have to do.

The reality is that the rear elbow is "pretty much at the same point" at the point of "conntection" and later at the point of "bat lag". Take a look at the two videos I posted above and I think you'll agree.

If you compare this kid at "connection" to how a pro looks at "connection", then it drives the point home rather well.

If you have better luck showing students how they look relative to pros at different portions of the swing then all the power to you.

I prefer to compare my students to pros at the same point of the swing.

Just my opinion. Use what works best for you.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I don't even know what RVP means.

RVP = RightViewPro.

The term "connection" is the point in the swing in which the hands pass by the rear shoulder. Ideally the shoulder, hands and elbow should be aligned with the stripe of the pants ... as shown in the photo of Bonds at "connection".

[beemax]

When you compare two different batters, in two completely different portions of the swing, then "pretty much at the same point" will have to do.

The reality is that the rear elbow is "pretty much at the same point" at the point of "conntection" and later at the point of "bat lag". Take a look at the two videos I posted above and I think you'll agree.


I don't agree. I will use photos from what you call "connection" and "bat lag" on both.

When we talk about a skill in hitting that 1/8th of an inch can be the difference between a home run and a ground ball, "pretty much the same point" does not do it for me.

I think we agree that the kid has a lot of stuff to work on, but look at his back elbow and how far forward it is when compared to Barry's. I like using these pictures of Barry because it is closer to a straight on side view than the pics you posted while the video that Chris posted is straight on.

The kid's elbow is over his back leg while Barry's is behind on the first two pics. In the second set Barry's is in perfect slot position, right next to his side over the inside back leg. The kid's elbow is already past that point, leaving him with very little to swing at the ball with.

[FiveFrameSwing]

When we talk about a skill in hitting that 1/8th of an inch can be the difference between a home run and a ground ball, "pretty much the same point" does not do it for me.


And this is why it didn't make sense to me to compare a student to a pro at two entirely different portions of the swing.

We do agree that this kid has a long road to travel.

[beemax]

And this is why it didn't make sense to me to compare a student to a pro at two entirely different portions of the swing.

First of all, you were claiming that there was not much, if any back elbow movement between connection and bat lag. I showed differently, IMO.

The whole reason that I showed two different points in the swing was because:

1. I know there is back elbow movement between connection and lag because I have seen it.

And...

2. The kid's back elbow was way too far forward at connection, hence me showing thomas at bat lag having his elbow in the position the kid had his at connection. It was to show that he was slotting his elbow too soon, which was my whole point to begin with.

You first said that it didn't make sense to compare the two at different points because the "rear elbow is pretty much at the same point." I have shown frame by frame pictures that show the rear elbow moves from connection to bat lag, and shown that the kid's was moving too far forward, too soon. I compared him to a pro to show what I mean by this.

Do you still not understand why I compared him and Thomas at different points in the swing?

[Chris O'Leary]

beemax,

FYI, I follow and agree with you on all of this.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Do you still not understand why I compared him and Thomas at different points in the swing?

If it makes sense to you to compare two different hitters at two different points in the swing then go ahead and do so. I know that my students would consider it nonsense.

There is not a lot of rear elbow movement between "connection" and "bat lag".

Showing two different students, one at "connection" and one at "bat lag", and discussing their rear elbow position is an interesting concept, but not one I would put a lot of value in.

Again, if making comparisons between students at different points in the swing works for you then keep it up. We all want you to be productive.

[beemax]

If it makes sense to you to compare two different hitters at two different points in the swing then go ahead and do so. I know that my students would consider it nonsense.

If your students know enough about the swing to consider it nonsense, why would they need a hitting coach anyway? I don't appreciate that comment at all and I'm pretty sure I didn't deserve it.

Again, I showed that the kid was at a point with his elbow that didn't match up to the point he was at in his swing. I showed Thomas to prove that point because he got his elbow into that point at bat lag and not at connection.

There is not a lot of rear elbow movement between "connection" and "bat lag".

That depends on what you consider not a lot, but there is definite movement from that elbow between the two points.

Showing two different students, one at "connection" and one at "bat lag", and discussing their rear elbow position is an interesting concept, but not one I would put a lot of value in.

I'm not saying it is something even to teach, but the kid involved in this thread is so out of whack I think it is worth pointing out. He slots his elbow way too early. I see no value in doing this.

Not sure how this went from "he slots his elbow too early" to "my students would consider comparing two hitters at different points nonsense," but feel free to put in any input on what you think the kid should do to improve. So far all I have heard from you is what Chris Yeager says and what you think the kid does wrong.

What do you think he should do to improve?

[Chris O'Leary]

The term "connection" is the point in the swing in which the hands pass by the rear shoulder. Ideally the shoulder, hands and elbow should be aligned with the stripe of the pants ... as shown in the photo of Bonds at "connection".

BTW, I think this is a bad to problematic concept because it is overly dependent upon point of view.

In a good swing, the hands always rotate ahead of the back shoulder. I call that maintaining the "L" (the angle the runs from shoulder to shoulder to hands). In a swing with bat drag, this angle opens up as a result of the drag, which is one reason why the swing gets longer.

[FiveFrameSwing]

If your students know enough about the swing to consider it nonsense, why would they need a hitting coach anyway? I don't appreciate that comment at all and I'm pretty sure I didn't deserve it.


My students seriously would consider it nonsense.

I can almost hear one of them now.

"Umm, coach. You are showing me a snapshot of me at 'connection' and comparing it to a snapshot of a pro at 'bat lag'. You say that our elbow positions are similar. But coach, I already know that the elbow doesn't move a whole lot between these two positions. Coach, you told me to always apply the Hanson Prinicple and to question anybody that trys to make me swallow something that doesn't make sense. Why are you showing me comparison photos at two different positions in the swing? If I'm doing something wrong then why aren't you showing me a comparison of a pro at the same point in his swing?"

I would loose instant credibility with a good percentage of my students if I tried such a tatic. My students know enough to expect a comparison at the same critical swing point.

My students aren't stupid. My students are expected to ask questions whenever in doubt. To safe guard them from those that would lead them astray I have them adopt the Hanson Principle. I want them educated to safe guard them when someone with good intentions leads them in the wrong direction. My students understand the purpose of every drill and what it is suppossed to emphasize. I encourage my students to be educated. I feel it allows me to spend less time back tracking.

[Jake Patterson]

If you are comparing the same momment in the swing I don't see the issue.

[FiveFrameSwing]

What do you think he should do to improve?

I thought that was obvious when I wrote "IMO this boy's lower body momentum mechanics are terrible and are in need of a serious upgrade.".

But you have a point. That isn't obvious to everybody.

This kid's lower body mechanics are a mess. In RVP-speak that would mean he needs to work on his "negative move", "positive move" and formation of a "firm front side". In Yeager's terminology he needs to work on the loading of his back leg, developing a forward weight shift (pushing with his back leg), blocking with his front leg, and pushing back with his front leg.

Many of this kid's issues can be traced back to faulty lower body momentum mechanics.

As you pointed out, this kid has a serious "bad drag" issue. That can be fixed through a combination of improving his lower body momentum mechanics and then teaching him a better method to load his top-hand/barrel during his forward weight shift. This kid looks like he already tries to "maintain lead-arm extension" during his swing, so it is likely that a good hand/barrel load, timed so that it completes towards the end of his forward weight shift, will address the "bat drag" issue.

[beemax]

My students seriously would consider it nonsense.

I can almost hear one of them now.

"Umm, coach. You are showing me a snapshot of me at 'connection' and comparing it to a snapshot of a pro at 'bat lag'. You say that our elbow positions are similar. But coach, I already know that the elbow doesn't move a whole lot between these two positions. Coach, you told me to always apply the Hanson Prinicple and to question anybody that trys to make me swallow something that doesn't make sense. Why are you showing me comparison photos at two different positions in the swing?"

I would loose instant credibility with a good percentage of my students if I tried to prove my point using snapshots comparing them to a pro at different positions in the swing.

My students aren't stupid. My students are expected to ask questions whenever in doubt. To safe guard them from those that would lead them astray I have adopt the Hanson Principle. I want them educated to safe guard them when someone with good intentions leads them in the wrong direction. My students understand the purpose of every drill and what it is suppossed to emphasize.

Well you have most certainly stated your opinion now on how you feel.

I am not going to explain myself any further. I showed snapshots of Bonds and the kid at the same points in their swing to give additional evidence as to why I showed the comparison of Thomas in the first place. The kid's elbow was slotted way too early.

Is your main goal to downgrade me on here?

[FiveFrameSwing]

If you are comparing the same momment in the swing I don't see the issue.


I agree with you Jake.

[FiveFrameSwing]

The kid's elbow was slotted way too early.


Yes, he has a serious "bat drag" issue.




Is your main goal to downgrade me on here?


Not at all.

You have my sincere respect.

I agree with your conclusion. I disagree with the approach you used to present it. I feel that a direct comparison would be more convincing to a student.

[beemax]

You have my sincere respect.

I agree with your conclusion. I disagree with the approach you used to present it. I feel that a direct comparison would be more convincing to a student.

Did I not give a direct comparison as well?

Glad to hear I have your sincere respect, even though you considered my approach nonsense.

[beemax]

If you are comparing the same momment in the swing I don't see the issue.

You don't? So are you saying that when compared with Bonds, you don't see a difference in the kid's swing to his?

You don't see the elbow in a different slot than Bonds' at connection and bat lag?

Maybe I am misunderstanding here, but could you explain a little more?

[FiveFrameSwing]

BTW, I think this is a bad to problematic concept because it is overly dependent upon point of view.

In a good swing, the hands always rotate ahead of the back shoulder. I call that maintaining the "L" (the angle the runs from shoulder to shoulder to hands). In a swing with bat drag, this angle opens up as a result of the drag, which is one reason why the swing gets longer.

In a good swing the hands pass through the point of "connection".

Emanski calls this the "explosion point". He believes he's the first to discover the importance of passing through this position in the swing. Little does he know that the folks at RVP documented this way ahead of him.

Here is photo of Bonds at "connection" (or as Emanski calls it, at the "explosion point").

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/BondsAtConnection.jpg

If the elbow was leading the hands at this point, as for the hitter in question for this thread, then we'd say he has a "bat drag" issue and we'd work to fix that. I recieve many students with a "bat drag" issue and the majority of them are fixed simply by correcting their hand/barrel load during their forward weight shift.

If the elbow lags behind at this point then that would be another problem. This problem is more rare. I've only had one student with this issue and the drills that Chris Yeager sent me on this worked to fix that issue.

[Jake Patterson]

You misinterpret me...
You don't? So are you saying that when compared with Bonds, you don't see a difference in the kid's swing to his? Absolutely - I was responding to using the clips being used in a comparative analysis, which I have no problem with.

You don't see the elbow in a different slot than Bonds' at connection and bat lag?
Maybe I am misunderstanding here, but could you explain a little more?I'm not trying to understand your analysis, I am trying to understand FFS's problem with it.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm not trying to understand your analysis, I am trying to understand FFS's problem with it.

Jake, it's relatively simple.

My students respond well when I show them a photo of them selves and that of a pro at the same point in their swings. They quickly buy into the differences.

IMO there is less value to showing a student a comparison photo of a pro in a different position in the swing.

I think we've pretty much beaten this horse to death.

Beemax understands my point and I understand his.

p.s.
Beemax, if you are still following this thread, I'd be interested in hearing your fix to the "bat drag" issue you highlighted.

[beemax]

My students respond well when I show them a photo of them selves and that of a pro at the same point in their swings. They quickly buy into the differences.

But if you show them a side by side to show them that they are getting into position way too early I guess it is a tough sell...

IMO there is less value to showing a student a comparison photo of a pro in a different position in the swing.

99% of the time I agree. However, IMO this case stands as an exception. Maybe if I had shown the frame by frame pics first and then pointed out that he gets into a position at connection that he shouldn't get into until bat lag, that would have saved us from doing this.

Beemax, if you are still following this thread, I'd be interested in hearing your fix to the "bat drag" issue you highlighted.

I've already stated at the beginning of this that I think he'd be a perfect choice to try the tip and rip. I think he needs to get his hands off of his back shoulder from the start and give the bat a little tip towards second base. I'd be interested to see how doing that would work out for him because like I said before, he looks like a good sized kid for his age. He should use that size to his advantage.

I also stated that he needs to load on his back leg more as well, which I think would help out his lower body mechanics.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Maybe if I had shown the frame by frame pics first and then pointed out that he gets into a position at connection that he shouldn't get into until bat lag, that would have saved us from doing this.


Yes, that would have been better received on my part.

As a fellow coach and instructor, I apologize if I came off too rough.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I also stated that he needs to load on his back leg more as well, which I think would help out his lower body mechanics.

He actually does load his back leg. This occurs when he takes his front heel off the ground. Unfortunately he doesn't have a positive move (forward weight shift) and he therefore isn't employing the primary source of force generation.

[beemax]

He actually does load his back leg. This occurs when he takes his front heel off the ground. Unfortunately he doesn't have a positive move (forward weight shift) and he therefore isn't employing the primary source of force generation.

I said he needs to load his back leg more.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I said he needs to load his back leg more.

Yes, but loading the back leg is worthless if their is no positive move (forward weight shift).

You don't perform the negative move simply for the sake of performing a negative move. The reason for negative move is to prepare for a strong forward weight shift. This kid doesn't have a forward weight shift.

Perhaps your point is that he needs to generate a forward weight shift and that an increased negative move would help him with that goal.

[beemax]

Yes, but loading the back leg is worthless if their is no positive move (forward weight shift).[QUOTE]

And it is worthless to try and have forward weight shift with no load back IMO.

[QUOTE]You don't perform the negative move simply for the sake of performing a negative move. The reason for negative move is to prepare for a strong forward weight shift. This kid doesn't have a forward weight shift.

Agreed.

Perhaps your point is that he needs to generate a forward weight shift and that an increased negative move would help him with that goal.

My point is that he needs to load back before he can go forward. What you say above is your point.