The wrist is key to bat speed

[Erik]

What role do the wrist have in developing the high level swing. The type of swing that the ball jumps off the bat. IMO the triceps and the wrist are two key areas in the elite swing. Thoughts?




EL,

[Chris O'Leary]

What role do the wrist have in developing the high level swing. The type of swing that the ball jumps off the bat. IMO the triceps and the wrist are two key areas in the elite swing. Thoughts?

I don't buy it.

The muscles of the wrist are too small and the Triceps is mostly inactive at the point of contact. In fact, I think the Biceps is more important because it helps to maintain connection.

[Strike1]

[B]BAT SPEED[B] That's what make's the ball jump off the bats sweet spot!
Strong forearms help you have quicker wrists, which gives you greater bat speed.

[wogdoggy]

What role do the wrist have in developing the high level swing. The type of swing that the ball jumps off the bat. IMO the triceps and the wrist are two key areas in the elite swing. Thoughts?




EL,



i think how you unload your wrists into the ball seperates the greats from the not so...its the extra 10 yards.you can see the difference especially in later high school players..kids that can square it up no matter where it is and put the spank on it as well.I believe hidden gem had some thoughts on the swing finish..

[Chris O'Leary]

[B]BAT SPEED[B] That's what make's the ball jump off the bats sweet spot!
Strong forearms help you have quicker wrists, which gives you greater bat speed.

How exactly does this work?

[FiveFrameSwing]

What role do the wrist have in developing the high level swing. The type of swing that the ball jumps off the bat. IMO the triceps and the wrist are two key areas in the elite swing. Thoughts?




EL,

Could you be more specific.

Do you mean this in terms of the top-hand "throwing" or "releasing" past the bottom-hand?

[Maxx]

Hips and core.....

[hiddengem]

I don't buy it.

The muscles of the wrist are too small and the Triceps is mostly inactive at the point of contact. In fact, I think the Biceps is more important because it helps to maintain connection.


How come players since the beginning of the game players have had popeye like forearms, and with my time in the major leagues and minor leagues the strong emphasis from all players on forearm/wrist strength?

[Strike1]

How exactly does this work?

Chris........I don't know anything! When I'm put up against you! Really!!

The forearm is a very little part of the batters swing, but a very importent part. What I was trying to say, was that I think its more in lower arm then in the upper arm that gets the wrists to bring the bat threw the zone with a lot of bat speed.
Ron Hunt.......(I believe he is in your area) Started me thinking this way!

[Erik]

Could you be more specific.

Do you mean this in terms of the top-hand "throwing" or "releasing" past the bottom-hand?


FFS,

I would say releasing past the bottom hand. I know when my hands get weak and wrist my barrell has a tendency to slow. I have a good routine down with wrist curls and grip workouts and this has made a huge difference. IMO the wrist and triceps help drive the swing more than some may think.



EL,

[wogdoggy]

How come players since the beginning of the game players have had popeye like forearms, and with my time in the major leagues and minor leagues the strong emphasis from all players on forearm/wrist strength?

thank you david,,you can see the kids that use it have 15 yards on the others and can sweeten it up way more.its what gives them the extra 15 yards,,when you see a kid use it properly you can tell..sorry dont get to too many high level games anymore ,but can sure see the difference in the high school kids who have it and those that dont

[Erik]

I don't buy it.

The muscles of the wrist are too small and the Triceps is mostly inactive at the point of contact. In fact, I think the Biceps is more important because it helps to maintain connection.


Chris,


the wrist are key. I believe golfers have been using small think rubber bands to increase wrist strength for driving the ball. The triceps are something you might not be aware of. The triceps help throwing don't they? The biceps help but triceps power.



EL,

[cosmo34]

How come players since the beginning of the game players have had popeye like forearms, and with my time in the major leagues and minor leagues the strong emphasis from all players on forearm/wrist strength?


Because we're all wrong for believing in this, at least according to some internet gurus anyway.

Funny, I was thinking about a thread from about a year and a half ago about how forearm/grip strength have nothing to do with a high level swing.

People who actually swing bats argue that it is a huge part of hitting. I wonder who's right?

The guys who play or the guys who armchair analyze? Let's see somebody with weak hands try and hit 90+ with a 34'' wood bat and NOT have the bat knocked out of their hands.

[Chris O'Leary]

How come players since the beginning of the game players have had popeye like forearms, and with my time in the major leagues and minor leagues the strong emphasis from all players on forearm/wrist strength?

This isn't universally true.

Some home run hitters have certainly had big forearms, but many didn't, especially in the past.

http://i.tsn.com/archives/aaron/i/HankAaron5.jpg

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/ted-williams-hof-1.jpg

[Chris O'Leary]

the wrist are key.

Why?


I believe golfers have been using small think rubber bands to increase wrist strength for driving the ball.

I don't think the wrists are unimportant, but I don't think they are the key.


The triceps help throwing don't they?

Not in a high-level throw.


The biceps help but triceps power.

This isn't possible since the muscles work in opposition to each other.

[beemax]

This isn't universally true.

Some home run hitters have certainly had big forearms, but many didn't, especially in the past.

http://i.tsn.com/archives/aaron/i/HankAaron5.jpg

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/ted-williams-hof-1.jpg

I think what HiddenGem is saying is those with popeye forearms were never lacking in the power department.

He was also saying that there was, and is, to this day, a strong emphasis on having strong writsts and forearms.

I understand the point you were trying to get across with the pictures of Aaron and Williams, but you also have to keep in mind that one is known for having the best wrist strength of his era (Aaron) while the other was known for tirelessly working his hands, wrists, and forearms by squeezing balls, hand grips, and doing fingertip pushups.

There is most definitely an advantage to making the muscles that hold on to the bat as strong as they can be.

[Chris O'Leary]

I think what HiddenGem is saying is those with popeye forearms were never lacking in the power department.

He was also saying that there was, and is, to this day, a strong emphasis on having strong writsts and forearms.

I understand the point you were trying to get across with the pictures of Aaron and Williams, but you also have to keep in mind that one is known for having the best wrist strength of his era (Aaron) while the other was known for tirelessly working his hands, wrists, and forearms by squeezing balls, hand grips, and doing fingertip pushups.

There is most definitely an advantage to making the muscles that hold on to the bat as strong as they can be.

Like I said, I don't think the wrists are unimportant.

Without wrist strength you can't withstand the deflection of the bat at the POC (which I think of as force preservation). However, I don't know if the wists really do much beyond this, especially in terms of force production.

That's why I don't think the wrists are the key to hitting as the original post seems to imply.

[beemax]

That's why I don't think the wrists are the key to hitting as the original post seems to imply.

It doesn't imply that they are THE key to hitting. Here is what he said:

IMO the triceps and the wrist are two key areas in the elite swing.

He implied that the wrist is A key area, not THE key to hitting. I agree with him.

[callyjr]

It doesn't imply that they are THE key to hitting. Here is what he said:



He implied that the wrist is A key area, not THE key to hitting. I agree with him.


the subject of the thread is "The wrist is key to bat speed"

so which one is my question?

kinda implies that what he thinks.

Doesn't the bat speed come from the hips driving the lower half that drives the upper half? I would think that the bat speed is coming mostly from the lower half, but would listen to anyone that has wrists on experience with it.(David)

Cally

[Chris O'Leary]

It doesn't imply that they are THE key to hitting. Here is what he said:

He implied that the wrist is A key area, not THE key to hitting. I agree with him.

The title of the post is...

"The wrist is key to bat speed"

I assume the missing article is "the" and not "a", but it could be clearer.

[beemax]

the subject of the thread is "The wrist is key to bat speed"

so which one is my question?

kinda implies that what he thinks.

Doesn't the bat speed come from the hips driving the lower half that drives the upper half? I would think that the bat speed is coming mostly from the lower half, but would listen to anyone that has wrists on experience with it.(David)

Cally

I wouldn't pin any one thing on being the key to batspeed, wrists included. IMO it is a combination of all working parts in the swing being sequenced out properly.

[azmatsfan]

The keys:

Feet
Legs
Hips
Core
Shoulders
Arms
Wrists
Hands

Not necessarily in that order.

[beemax]

The keys:

Feet
Legs
Hips
Core
Shoulders
Arms
Wrists
Hands

Not necessarily in that order.

What about what is above the feet, legs, hips, core shoulders, arms, wrists and hands?:)

[FiveFrameSwing]

It doesn't imply that they are THE key to hitting. Here is what he said:



He implied that the wrist is A key area, not THE key to hitting. I agree with him.

When speaking of the importance of the wrists, are we talking about maintaining the release angle or the cock of the wrist for as long as possible?

Is the purpose of having strong wrists simply to promote wrist flexion or cock of the wrists?

[cosmo34]

I think what HiddenGem is saying is those with popeye forearms were never lacking in the power department.

He was also saying that there was, and is, to this day, a strong emphasis on having strong writsts and forearms.

I understand the point you were trying to get across with the pictures of Aaron and Williams, but you also have to keep in mind that one is known for having the best wrist strength of his era (Aaron) while the other was known for tirelessly working his hands, wrists, and forearms by squeezing balls, hand grips, and doing fingertip pushups.

There is most definitely an advantage to making the muscles that hold on to the bat as strong as they can be.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Ted was always working on his grip. He just wasn't doing it by deadlifting and farmer's walks, like many do today. That isn't to say he didn't have tremendous grip strength.

Why would you not want your hands to be as strong as possible? They do, after all, control the bat.

[jbooth]

What role do the wrist have in developing the high level swing. The type of swing that the ball jumps off the bat. IMO the triceps and the wrist are two key areas in the elite swing. Thoughts?


EL,

Grip strength and forearm strength are very important. The triceps do very little in the swing.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Grip strength and forearm strength are very important. The triceps do very little in the swing.

I don't doubt this at all. What I'm looking for is an explanation as to why grip strength and forearm strength are important in the swing.

Chris Yeager:

"Beyond relaxation, the upper body really has one main goal and that’s to gain maximum extension during the stride, while maintaining the release angle or the cock of the wrist for as long as possible."

"The best hitters maintain this lead arm extension, wrist cocked position, longer than most. "

"pushing hard against the ground resulting in body segment separation. The pushes get the hips in front and by extending at the lead arm, as you see all of these fine hitters doing, keeps the torso behind the hips, it keeps the shoulders behind the torso, it keeps the arms behind the shoulders, and keeping the wrist cocked keeps the bat behind the arms. Trying to separate all of these segments."

"keeping the arm extended keeps the torso behind the hips. Once the torso begins to unwind you keep the extension, that keeps the shoulders back. And once the shoulders begin to unwind the arm stays extended to keep the arm behind the shoulder. And once the arms finally come around you want to maintain the cock of the wrist to keep the hands and bat behind the arm."

"the goal for the upper body is very simple. Relaxation, while gaining extension with wrist flexion or cock of the wrists and maintain that extension with wrist flexion for as long as possible, while being relaxed."


"Upper body has three goals
1. Gain and maintain lead arm extension throughout the entire swing
2. Keep the wrists cocked as long as possible
3. Maintain a vertical bat for as long as possible"

[LClifton]

There is most definitely an advantage to making the muscles that hold on to the bat as strong as they can be.
I agree and here's my own opinion as to why.

Allow me just to use beemax and myself as an example.

Let's say that there is "x" amount of pressure put on the bat during launch.
If beemax is using, say, 75% of the total strength in his hands / forearms to apply that pressure, but to reach the same amount of force on the bat it takes 98% of my strength.
Would this be an advantage to beemax? The answer, IMO, is, Yes.

The reason I believe this is because beemax would retain a better ability for the wrists / wrist (especially with the top hand) to flex / "cup" (if you will.)
So, does size and strength matter? Can / do younger hitters that any of you work with have difficulty "stabilizing the barrel?"

I have nothing to back this up, (the % of strength used to control things yet allow for fluid movement) except for informal interviews with players, where I asked them about their grip and grip pressure.
Both baseball players and golfers.

One thing I do notice is this,,,,the top hand wrist flexes back at launch. I believe it is a factor in the "flattening of the bat".
The forearm does not "flop" backwards to achieve the flattening.
The articulation of the wrist is a contributor to flattening that I don't often see in some of the younger hitters I work with.
While we don't focus on the wrist articulation, we do put some emphasis on the top hand grip (more in the fingers and "pre set" (cupped))...the position that the wrist 'gets to' assists in whipping the bat, and is A key.
Go ahead bend your wrist back --with a bat the size of ML hitters.
If you don't have strength to sufficiently handle that force at launch what happens?
One of two things, IMO.
Loopy swing. A downward path to keep the barrel more steady.

And I could be dead wrong...the whole wrist thing could be completely due to reactionary forces. I will admit I don't know. But, without the strength in the wrists / hands / forearms / the barrel becomes "unstable." Imo.
The younger hitters I work with, I request that they do push ups. I don't advise (age dependent) that they lift weights. The additional strength they develop goes a long way in helping to stabilize the barrel. Simply, they have much more control.

I see top hand wrist articulation here. Looking closely as the hitter launches I see his top hand move around to get "under" the bat. In trying to just speak about the wrist, I realize there are other things happening at the same time. Many clips don't show the wrist well enough to determine this articulation---- and I'm not saying I'm right. Just food for thought.
I guess that's why there are different types of hitters. :)
45809

[beemax]

When speaking of the importance of the wrists, are we talking about maintaining the release angle or the cock of the wrist for as long as possible?

IMO its about having strong wrists, hands and forearms, because those are the muscles used to hang on to the bat. Release angle and cock of the wrist is never something I worked on, but it may work for others.

Is the purpose of having strong wrists simply to promote wrist flexion or cock of the wrists?

IMO the purpose behind having strong wrists applies more to the fact that they involve the muscles that hold onto the bat more that flexion or cocking.

[phantom]

[QUOTE=jbooth;1233652]Grip strength and forearm strength are very important. QUOTE]

I agree with this.

The bat is like an extension of your arms, or it could be your arms are an extension of the bat......but what I'm trying to get at is....you need a good strong grip and forearms to handle the bat during the swing.


The power of the swing is generated by the hips, legs, core and in order to transfer the power from those areas into a strong powerful quick swing, you'll need to be able to equally handle the bat with your hands and forearms, otherwise, the power won't be transferred into the swing.

Grip strength and forearm strength are important keys to a solid swing.

[cosmo34]

The power of the swing is generated by the hips, legs, core and in order to transfer the power from those areas into a strong powerful quick swing, you'll need to be able to equally handle the bat with your hands and forearms, otherwise, the power won't be transferred into the swing.

Grip strength and forearm strength are important keys to a solid swing.

I think we have a winner.

[Mark H]

I wouldn't pin any one thing on being the key to batspeed, wrists included. IMO it is a combination of all working parts in the swing being sequenced out properly.

Yes, it's a total systems problem with a total system solution.

[Erik]

When speaking of the importance of the wrists, are we talking about maintaining the release angle or the cock of the wrist for as long as possible?

Is the purpose of having strong wrists simply to promote wrist flexion or cock of the wrists?



FFS,

The wrist angle is also important in the release of the barrel. I think it's the uncocking of the wrist and the excellaration that one gets with increased strength in these two areas. I feel it and see the difference off the bat. This is why I say it's key to batspeed. This can be felt by anyone that is willing to swing a bat enough and incorporate a program to increase the muscle strength in the tricep and wrist. I have never seen a great hitter with weak wrist and triceps. I believe Hank Aaron said the triceps helped him drive the ball. I know the body has to work together to unload the "A" swing. I don't want to over look an area of the body that can help produce a better hitter. My experience as a hitter and teacher seeing hitters strike the ball with more force has lead to my realization.



EL,

[Dirtberry]

If you have discounted “Force coupling” of the hands by the forearms thru the wrists along with the preceding powerful triceps (highest fast twitch percentage muscle in the arm) forearms extension then you have missed one of the key elements of the “Classic power swing”.

By putting the all the emphasis on initial force application and giving the bottom 1/3 or the core as the reason for the highest rates of velocity gains you then start a mental then kinetic linkage break down at the other end of the swing, this can be seen in the swing Chris brought here in his 13 year old when displays no “Hand drive” or “Shoulder deceleration” during contact phase robes him of the “Key” element in producing power and contact ratios.

Erik, beemax and Mark H got it going on “Grip it and rip it”, I don’t know if what they say is true about rural boys having more Batting power than city boys, but I do know they have to learn how to use an axe.

[StraightGrain11]

I think the forearms play a bigger role in "resisting" the impact of the ball (I wonder how many pounds of force a 95mph fastball applies...?).
To use an example of Chris's...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting__Youth_MG_3B_001.gif
Why does the bat "recoil" at impact...I'm guessing it has something to do with "wrist/forearm strength"...:think:(well, lack of)
I realize the title of the thread was that the wrists are key to bat speed - but I feel it has taken a slight turn in direction, and is now discussing the importance of the wrists in general.

http://i.tsn.com/archives/aaron/i/HankAaron5.jpg
Also, I don't see the Hank Aaron photo as a very "credible" one for showing "hitters without large forearms", Hank's forearms are about 1.5X's BIGGER than the barrel of his BAT, as well as larger than his upper-arm (bicep/tricep) - I would hardly call that "small" (they're not exactly lacking in "definition" or "popping veins", either :)). In fact, I would say they're HUGE - it's the rest of his body I would deem "small".

[Infinite]

Hips and core.....
I would say bat speed starts here...
although I like where this thread is going its very informative...

I was taught here to work on my legs, wrist, forearms and biceps (triceps) in conjunction with bat speed to increase power... weak wrist pitiful point of contact.

[Erik]

[QUOTE=jbooth;1233652]Grip strength and forearm strength are very important. The triceps do very little in the swing

Jim,



http://www.isb2005.org/proceedings/abstracts/0377.pdf




EL,

[Mariners_swe]

I think the key to bat speed is good mechanics overall, not just triceps and wrists..

[jbooth]

[QUOTE=jbooth;1233652]Grip strength and forearm strength are very important. The triceps do very little in the swing

Jim,


http://www.isb2005.org/proceedings/abstracts/0377.pdf


EL,

Thanks, for some reason, I wasn't thinking of the rear arm's action. Yes, as the final snap into the ball is occuring, there would be tricep activity in the rear arm.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Why does the bat "recoil" at impact...I'm guessing it has something to do with "wrist/forearm strength"


I found this comment interesting (above).

In your opinion is the objective to "muscle" through the ball at contact, or to hit the ball with a "fast" bat barrel?

I teach hitting with a "speed" over hitting with "muscle". Just curious if you advocate something different.

[beemax]

Erik, beemax and Mark H got it going on “Grip it and rip it”, I don’t know if what they say is true about rural boys having more Batting power than city boys, but I do know they have to learn how to use an axe.

I never said "grip it and rip it." "Tip it and rip it", yes, but not grip it and rip it. IMO they mean two different things.

[Mark H]

But, without the strength in the wrists / hands / forearms / the barrel becomes "unstable." Imo.


And if the barrel doesn't become unstable on the first swing it will sooner than for the well conditioned hitter limiting practice time. I think you nailed it here and I think this is what Phantom is saying too. Stability of the arms and bat is necessary for good connection.

[Mark H]

I think the forearms play a bigger role in "resisting" the impact of the ball (I wonder how many pounds of force a 95mph fastball applies...?).

Why does the bat "recoil" at impact...I'm guessing it has something to do with "wrist/forearm strength"...:think:(well, lack of)


Those who study such things with instruments and high speed photography say the ball has left the bat before the shock wave from impact reaches the hands so nothing the hands do during the brief moment the ball is in contact with the bat would have an effect assuming they are correct.

[FiveFrameSwing]

And if the barrel doesn't become unstable on the first swing it will sooner than for the well conditioned hitter limiting practice time. I think you nailed it here and I think this is what Phantom is saying too. Stability of the arms and bat is necessary for good connection.

This makes sense to me.

[jbooth]

This makes sense to me.

A hitter doesn't realize it, but there is so much tangential force (bat trying to fly out away from the body), that the main exertion of the muscles in the arms and hands is happening to keep the handle close to the body. The angular momentum created by the torso rotation is sufficient to move the bathead. The arms are controlling the handle, or as phantom said, they are used to control the bat, and control the transfer of energy from body to bat.

The stronger your legs and core are; which allow you to create powerful rotation; the stronger your arms and grip need to be, to handle the forces. The arms and wrists do contribute to overall power, but the main power source is coming out of the rotating torso.

If you don't rotate you cannot hit a ball over the fence. If you just rotate and don't add a perfectly timed use of arms and hands, you probably won't consistently hit it out either. You need BOTH, but the primary power source is the rotation.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thank you Jim!

[Twitch5]

It seems like some people are getting hung up on whether or not the wrists/forearms are a KEY to batspeed.

What if the question was phrased another way...

Do you think that underdeveloped wrists/forearms would lead to a decrease in bat speed?

OR

Do you think that increasing the development of your wrists/forearms would lead to an increase in bat speed?



Twitch5

[StraightGrain11]

I found this comment interesting (above).

In your opinion is the objective to "muscle" through the ball at contact, or to hit the ball with a "fast" bat barrel?

I teach hitting with a "speed" over hitting with "muscle". Just curious if you advocate something different.

That's fine. But a baseball exerts a "force" that can be attributed the feel of "weight". Basically, I'm saying that a 95mph fastball probably feels like hitting a punching bag (with your bat). Do you think "bat speed" alone is going to move that puching bag?

Think of it this way...
Ever play football in HS? Remember when you would have to "hit and drive" the tackling dummy? Even after running full-speed at it, what happened when you hit it? You kind of "slowed" down - your legs had to find a "2nd gear" to "drive thru it". Why? Because you had to overcome the bag's inertial state - which was motionless.
It works the same way with hitting. Only instead of the ball's intertial state being motionless - it is moving at a very high rate of speed in the OPPOSITE direction that you want it to go.

Bat speed "gets the bat there" (just as your "running" took you to the tackling dummy), your forearm muscles are what keep it going thru contact (just as your leg drive kept you going thru the bag at contact).

If you really want to FEEL, for yourself, what I am saying, go take a round of soft toss with baseballs, and then take round with [a] Blooper ball[s]. Then tell me if "bat speed" is "enough".... :)

[FiveFrameSwing]

That's fine. But a baseball exerts a "force" that can be attributed the feel of "weight". Basically, I'm saying that a 95mph fastball probably feels like hitting a punching bag (with your bat). Do you think "bat speed" alone is going to move that puching bag?

Think of it this way...
Ever play football in HS? Remember when you would have to "hit and drive" the tackling dummy? Even after running full-speed at it, what happened when you hit it? You kind of "slowed" down - your legs had to find a "2nd gear" to "drive thru it". Why? Because you had to overcome the bag's inertial state - which was motionless.
It works the same way with hitting. Only instead of the ball's intertial state being motionless - it is moving at a very high rate of speed in the OPPOSITE direction that you want it to go.

Bat speed "gets the bat there" (just as your "running" took you to the tackling dummy), your forearm muscles are what keep it going thru contact (just as your leg drive kept you going thru the bag at contact).

If you really want to FEEL, for yourself, what I am saying, go take a round of soft toss with baseballs, and then take round with [a] Blooper ball[s]. Then tell me if "bat speed" is "enough".... :)

Here's the thing. The bat barrel is in contact with the baseball for approximately 1/2000 of a second. That is not long enough for a signal to be sent from the hands to the ground and an impulse sent back from the ground to the hands/arms to muscle through the ball. By the time the impulse arrived at the hands/arms the ball would be long gone.

It's my current belief that you hit the ball with "speed" and that you don't attempt to "muscle" through the ball. I think Jim nailed it when he explained the importance of arm strength, and I don't believe he attributed it to the need to muscle through the ball.

[StraightGrain11]

Here's the thing. The bat barrel is in contact with the baseball for approximately 1/2000 of a second. That is not long enough for a signal to be sent from the hands to the ground and an impulse sent back from the ground to the hands/arms to muscle through the ball. By the time the impulse arrived at the hands/arms the ball would be long gone.

It's my current belief that you hit the ball with "speed" and that you don't attempt to "muscle" through the ball. I think Jim nailed it when he explained the importance of arm strength, and I don't believe he attributed it to the need to muscle through the ball.

it's called "anticipation" - you engage your forearm muscles BEFORE impact not AT impact. Thus why I offered the "test" of hitting blooper balls. If you don't have "strong wrists and forearms"...good luck.
And I offer my sympathy in advance, for the sore wrists you're going to end up with, due to their lack of strength (and exposure to such rigorous forces - forces that might be similar to what a baseball traveling at a very high rate of speed - maybe 90+mph(?) - might feel like...:think:).

So Albert Pujols could hit the same with forearms half the size? No, he couldn't. Why? How are you going to "hold on to" and "direct" a bat traveling at such a high rate of speed - let alone redirect a ball traveling at, possibly, an even higher rate of speed? I think we already see what happens when the forearm muscles fatigue and breakdown during the swing - a fan gets a souvenier piece of lumber with that palyer's name on it. :) If you think a bat "slips" because the handle is "slippery"...:rolleyes: :shrug:

[jbooth]

it's called "anticipation" - you engage your forearm muscles BEFORE impact not AT impact. Thus why I offered the "test" of hitting blooper balls. If you don't have "strong wrists and forearms"...good luck.
And I offer my sympathy in advance, for the sore wrists you're going to end up with, due to their lack of strength (and exposure to such rigorous forces - forces that might be similar to what a baseball traveling at a very high rate of speed - maybe 90+mph(?) - might feel like...:think:).

So Albert Pujols could hit the same with forearms half the size? No, he couldn't. Why? How are you going to "hold on to" and "direct" a bat traveling at such a high rate of speed - let alone redirect a ball traveling at, possibly, an even higher rate of speed? I think we already see what happens when the forearm muscles fatigue and breakdown during the swing - a fan gets a souvenier piece of lumber with that palyer's name on it. :) If you think a bat "slips" because the handle is "slippery"...:rolleyes: :shrug:

The arm and hand muscles don't need to resist bat recoil if the bat is moving fast enough to create a force greater than the force of the oncoming ball.

If you stick the bat out to bunt a 95mph pitch, yes, the ball will knock the bat to the catcher if you don't use your arms and hands, but when you properly rotate and get the bat going 70+ mph you have more force and kinetic energy moving at the bathead, than the 95 mph ball has.

F = ma. 70*1.5 lbs = 105 (bat force)
95*.33 lbs = 31 (ball force)

or Kinetic energy = .5m*v^2

bat ke = 3675
ball ke = 1534

The combined energy of both moving objects determines how fast the ball exits the bat. Dr Alan Nathan studied the collisions, and if I remember correctly, for every mph of ball speed you get 1 foot of extra distance (with equal batspeed). A 1 mph increase in batspeed gives 5 feet of extra distance (with equal pitch.)

That's why it's easier to hit a 90 mph out, than a BP pitch. You get 30 more feet just from the pitcher's help.

If you recall my demo where I swung a bat holding the bolt through the handle, the bat knocked the ball off the tee with no recoil, and no need for hands. Now, that bat was probably only moving about 35mph, so if I did that swing with the bolt against a 95mph pitch, the pitch will knock the bat back somewhat (or slow it down). In that case, a firm grip would help, but still not turn the ball around very well. It's the speed of the bat at contact that matters, not how firmly you're holding it.

P.S.
For the physicists out there; I know that acceleration and velocity are different, but I'm trying to keep it simple for the jocks reading it. Basically, the faster the contact point on the bat is moving at impact, the better the hit. And, a lot of things contribute to the movement of the bathead, other than the wrists and forearms.

[FiveFrameSwing]

it's called "anticipation" - you engage your forearm muscles BEFORE impact not AT impact. Thus why I offered the "test" of hitting blooper balls. If you don't have "strong wrists and forearms"...good luck.
And I offer my sympathy in advance, for the sore wrists you're going to end up with, due to their lack of strength (and exposure to such rigorous forces - forces that might be similar to what a baseball traveling at a very high rate of speed - maybe 90+mph(?) - might feel like...:think:).

So Albert Pujols could hit the same with forearms half the size? No, he couldn't. Why? How are you going to "hold on to" and "direct" a bat traveling at such a high rate of speed - let alone redirect a ball traveling at, possibly, an even higher rate of speed? I think we already see what happens when the forearm muscles fatigue and breakdown during the swing - a fan gets a souvenier piece of lumber with that palyer's name on it. :) If you think a bat "slips" because the handle is "slippery"...:rolleyes: :shrug:

I found your post thought provoking.

Keep in mind, that I still agree with Jim's follow-up post in which he concluded the following.

JBooth: "It's the speed of the bat at contact that matters, not how firmly you're holding it."

What got me thinking was your use of the word "anticipation".

In my opinion, what is a key element of the swing is the "final push" from the back leg and 'timing' this such that it occurs just as the front heel is planted. This "final push" with the back leg is performed "anticipating" the "timing" of "contact".

After this "final push" with the back leg, there is no further push from the back leg. The last push from the back leg should occur just as the front heel is being planted in "anticipation" of the "timing" needed for square contact.

Get this "final push" correct and you will be have a "powerful swing" that is "short to contact" and "long through the zone".

IMO, it is this "final push" that Yeager speaks of when he speaks of the primary force of the MLB swing (granted that the strength of the frontside pushback will be in proportion to this "final push").

In other words, I believe where the "anticipation" should be placed is not with the "muscling" of the arms, but with the "final push" of the back leg.

Just my humble opinion.

[Sammy]

What about "fast-twitch" muscle fibers playing a role? Is it really about brute strength? Could physical make-up be a determining factor? Take for instance a sprinter. Some look like they were just released from a concentration camp, but have blazing quick starts (key), and don't appear to have an Arnold physique - no bulging muscles in legs to be found.

Could bat speed be one of those things in life that is limited by physical make up? Regardless of training - not every person can throw 90 mph and swing a bat "major league" speed - but of course that SHOULD NOT deter someone from trying! You just have to accept your limitations. Just some thoughts...