Dmac - Grounders/Flyballs tweaking.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Dmac wrote the following with respect to tweaking his son's swing. When he was hitting pop-ups he'd recommend a more aggressive top-hand. When he was hitting grounders he'd recommend a more aggressive bottom-hand.

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When my son was younger and would pop a lot of balls up in BP, I would tell him to get aggressive with his top hand, and he would start centering the ball. When he was hitting too many balls on the ground, I would tell him to get aggressive with his bottom hand and he would then start centering the ball.
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Granted that this advice was specific for his son, but what do you figure the logic was? Why would being more aggressive with the top-hand turn pop-ups into line-drives? Why would being more aggressive with the bottom-hand turn grounders into line-drives?

[Go Cardinals]

tony gwynn said the way to stop rolling over the ball (so grounders) is to pull more with your bottom hand.

[cubsphill]

one of our assistant coaches that works primarily as our hitting coach always says when we're popping up that we need to "get our top hand going" more often than not, it works.

[beemax]

Dmac wrote the following with respect to tweaking his son's swing. When he was hitting pop-ups he'd recommend a more aggressive top-hand. When he was hitting grounders he'd recommend a more aggressive bottom-hand.

<<<
When my son was younger and would pop a lot of balls up in BP, I would tell him to get aggressive with his top hand, and he would start centering the ball. When he was hitting too many balls on the ground, I would tell him to get aggressive with his bottom hand and he would then start centering the ball.
>>>

Granted that this advice was specific for his son, but what do you figure the logic was? Why would being more aggressive with the top-hand turn pop-ups into line-drives? Why would being more aggressive with the bottom-hand turn grounders into line-drives?

I feel that I should chime in since I was the one who received this advice:)

His logic behind it was that if I was popping up it was most likely because my bathead was late in getting to the zone. The popups that he was referring to were mostly to left field, and since I am a LHH, I was late.

If I was rolling over on balls, I was most likely early, and when you are early the top hand tends to take over too soon, resulting in the ground balls. By telling me to get my bottom hand going, his hope was that I wouldn't be as early and I could set my sights to the middle of the field.

Ted Williams said, if you're late, you're popping balls up, if you're early you're hitting balls on the ground. This cue helped me find the happy medium when it came to that.

I always found that it helped. But as is the case for any cue, it may not work for others. I just know from experience that it helped me, and I hope this helps explain why.

[FiveFrameSwing]

tony gwynn said the way to stop rolling over the ball (so grounders) is to pull more with your bottom hand.

This part I believe I understand, but I believe it assumes that the lead-arm path is correct. According to Jack Mankin, if the lead elbow is too low, then the top elbow will roll-over prematurely.

It may be the logic that being more aggressive with the bottom-hand promotes having the elbow higher and therefore restricts top-hand rollover. In other words, if what was causing the grounders was top-hand rollover, then being more aggressive with the bottom-hand may be a reasonable cue for some folks ... assuming of course that this causes their lead elbow to be higher.

[FiveFrameSwing]

one of our assistant coaches that works primarily as our hitting coach always says when we're popping up that we need to "get our top hand going" more often than not, it works.

Thank you. Do you or your coach understand why this works?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I feel that I should chime in since I was the one who received this advice:)

His logic behind it was that if I was popping up it was most likely because my bathead was late in getting to the zone. The popups that he was referring to were mostly to left field, and since I am a LHH, I was late.

If I was rolling over on balls, I was most likely early, and when you are early the top hand tends to take over too soon, resulting in the ground balls. By telling me to get my bottom hand going, his hope was that I wouldn't be as early and I could set my sights to the middle of the field.

Ted Williams said, if you're late, you're popping balls up, if you're early you're hitting balls on the ground. This cue helped me find the happy medium when it came to that.

I always found that it helped. But as is the case for any cue, it may not work for others. I just know from experience that it helped me, and I hope this helps explain why.

Thank you Beemax.

Should I infer from this that your father believed that an increased focus on the top-hand would speed up the swing and that an increased focus on the bottom-hand would slow down the swing? Or is it more that the swing speed would be the same, but that you would trigger later with an increased focus on your bottom-hand, and trigger earlier with an increased focus on your top-hand?

[cubsphill]

Thank you. Do you or your coach understand why this works?

beemax summed it up well

[cosmo34]

Thank you. Do you or your coach understand why this works?

I know of a few other coaches from his area that preach this as well, so I'm thinking somebody's been teachin that alot up there.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I feel that I should chime in since I was the one who received this advice:)

His logic behind it was that if I was popping up it was most likely because my bathead was late in getting to the zone. The popups that he was referring to were mostly to left field, and since I am a LHH, I was late.

If I was rolling over on balls, I was most likely early, and when you are early the top hand tends to take over too soon, resulting in the ground balls. By telling me to get my bottom hand going, his hope was that I wouldn't be as early and I could set my sights to the middle of the field.

Ted Williams said, if you're late, you're popping balls up, if you're early you're hitting balls on the ground. This cue helped me find the happy medium when it came to that.

I always found that it helped. But as is the case for any cue, it may not work for others. I just know from experience that it helped me, and I hope this helps explain why.

From your description it sounds like increasing the focus on the top-hand causes one to be earlier, whereas increasing the focus on the bottom-hand causes one to be later.

Do you have an explanation for this? Why would an increased concentration on the top-hand cause one to be earlier? Why would an increase concentration on the bottom-hand cause one to be later?

Let me assume that this is true.

Let’s assume that my team is facing a pitcher that is faster than they are accustomed too. Since an increased focus on the top-hand causes one to be earlier, would a concentration on their top-hand be more helpful in that game?

Let’s assume that my team is facing a pitcher that is slower than they are used too. Since an increased focus on the bottom-hand causes one to be later, then would a concentration on their bottom-hand be more helpful in that game?

[beemax]

Thank you Beemax.

Should I infer from this that your father believed that an increased focus on the top-hand would speed up the swing and that an increased focus on the bottom-hand would slow down the swing? Or is it more that the swing speed would be the same, but that you would trigger later with an increased focus on your bottom-hand, and trigger earlier with an increased focus on your top-hand?

It is not a matter of speeding up or slowing down the swing at all. I would never try to slow down a swing of mine (or any others for that matter).

It has to do more with timing, because if you are early (rolling over) or late (popping up), your timing is obviously off. For me it was a matter of adjusting my timing to square the ball up in the middle of the field.

Again, I would never ever try to change the speed of my swing on purpose unless something was drastically wrong.

[LAball]

Swinging with the botton hand enhanses an arc on the bat head. Swinging with the top hand give the bat head a more linear path.

[beemax]

From your description it sounds like increasing the focus on the top-hand causes one to be earlier, whereas increasing the focus on the bottom-hand causes one to be later.

If thats what you want to call it, but it is more about having the barrel in the correct spot at contact rather than lagging behind or disconnecting ahead.

Do you have an explanation for this? Why would an increased concentration on the top-hand cause one to be earlier? Why would an increase concentration on the bottom-hand cause one to be later?

Again, its not about being later or earlier IMO. I don't like to use those terms (Like "swing earlier" or "swing later") because the goal should never be to swing early or late. If a hitter is late on someone, I would rather say "be quicker to the ball", or "choke up a little" than "swing earlier." That's just a cue I don't like. Same can be said for "swing later." I would much rather say "stay back" or "let the ball come to you" rather than that.

Let’s assume that my team is facing a pitcher that is faster than they are accustomed too. Since an increased focus on the top-hand causes one to be earlier, would a concentration on their top-hand be more helpful in that game?

I think it would be helpful only if they are hitting soft pop ups the other way.

Remember, these two cues are based off of what you did on a previous swing, not what the pitcher throws. Its more about correcting a swing flaw by adjustment rather than adjusting to a pitcher.

Let’s assume that my team is facing a pitcher that is slower than they are used too. Since an increased focus on the bottom-hand causes one to be later, then would a concentration on their bottom-hand be more helpful in that game?

Again, same thing applies here. I would only give the bottom hand cue if they are rolling over against the pitcher. It's not something I would tell them in advance because if it's not broke, there is no need to fix it.

[FiveFrameSwing]

It has to do more with timing, because if you are early (rolling over) or late (popping up), your timing is obviously off. For me it was a matter of adjusting my timing to square the ball up in the middle of the field.


If I understand you correctly, then more focus on your top-hand alters your timing such that you are earlier. More focus on your bottom-hand alters your timing such that you are later.

If this is correct, then does it stand to reason that one should increase the focus on their top hand when facing a faster pitcher than one is used too? Likewise, does it make sense for someone to place more focus on their bottom-hand when they are facing a slower pitcher than they are used too?

Seems to me that if a concentration on one hand alters one's timing, then that could be used to one's advantage when facing different speed pitchers.

Lastly ... why does the concentration on one hand influence the timing?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Swinging with the botton hand enhanses an arc on the bat head. Swinging with the top hand give the bat head a more linear path.

Bingo!

What you are saying is that the hand path is dependent on the percentage of dominance by the top-hand or bottom-hand.

To the point, you are saying that a top-hand dominant swing will be more compact, more direct, and put the bat further ahead. Likewise, you are saying that a bottom-hand dominant swing will follow more of a CHP, and be less direct, thus putting the bat further behind.

I like this explanation. It explains why the concentration of the top-hand would put the bat further out at contact, whereas a concentration of the bottom-hand would put the bat further behind at contact. It would also suggest that bottom-hand dominance would result in driving the ball further ... assuming one believes in Mankin's CHP theory.

LAball, I find your answer very interesting. Thank you!

[beemax]

Swinging with the botton hand enhanses an arc on the bat head. Swinging with the top hand give the bat head a more linear path.

I agree. A good, simple explanation here.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I agree. A good, simple explanation here.

Thank you both.

I've found your dad's advice on this topic helpful, but never understood why it worked until tonight.