9yo swing analysis

[David Boyd]

Followed this board for a while. Appreciate any comments.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qIfaaJYytQg

[StraightGrain11]

He needs to load/separate better. I'd like to see the batt a little more "upright"...but I think proper loading will correct that on its own...
He's not loading/separating properly (at all, really), and it's causing his hands to start way behind his body - creating his bat drag.

The other thing he is lacking in is weight transfer. He has no weight transfer and this is causing him to "squish the bug". Those are the "big" things for now, that I see. I'm sure there will be more (there's always more) - later, but those are the ones that will help create a good foundation to address the other ones off of. :)

[David Boyd]

Thanks. Agree totally on holding the bat more upright. He has developed a tendency to lay it almost perpendicular to the ground when he gets in his stance.

Regarding loading. When he assumes his stance do you mean turning his hips away from the pitcher a bit? What percentage of his weight should be on his back leg?

As far as weight transfer, what helps accomplish this? Emphasizing taking the knob of the bat to the ball?

[StraightGrain11]

Thanks. Agree totally on holding the bat more upright. He has developed a tendency to lay it almost perpendicular to the ground when he gets in his stance.
Really, it doesn't matter where he holds it when he gets in his stance, it's where it is when the front foot "gets down".
http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39747&d=1207945036
NONE of these hitters "start" the same, but they ALL get to pretty much the same position (loaded/separated) when the front foot hits.
Regarding loading. When he assumes his stance do you mean turning his hips away from the pitcher a bit? What percentage of his weight should be on his back leg?
Hmmm...I would describe it more as "turning in towards the plate", but if that's the way you see it, then yes (whatever works :)). And it's not so much "when he assumes his stance" it's more "when he get's ready to hit the ball". This is what I am referring to - it is the first set of movements [backward] with the hands/shoulders/front leg/hip (these guys are "no striders", like your son :)):
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/Edmonds3.gif
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Ankiel2.gif

As far as weight transfer, what helps accomplish this? Emphasizing taking the knob of the bat to the ball?

Weight transfer should occur before the hands ever "go". So it has to be a "body" cue (maybe something along the lines of "when the pitcher shows you his back-pocket, you show him your's" - see Jim Edmonds, above). You need to have him do something that accomplishes making him FEEL the weight transfer. This is a very exaggerated example of weight transfer:
http://i31.tinypic.com/c8dj6.gif
Here's another example of weight-transfer (this is SPECIFICALLY a "2-strike approach" style for this hitter):
http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44610&stc=1&d=1213490630
Something tells me, though, that if he gets the load/separation down, the weight-transfer "issue" will take care of itself...

[LAball]

He looks like squishing the bug. Has PCR rotation. He might pull to Left foul territory with that. No adjustment in the swing for breaking balls.

[Mark H]

Has PCR rotation..

Seriously? He has neither good posture nor good connection nor good rotation and he's got bat drag. Fairly common pattern. Needs to get in an athletic posture and learn how to rotate from there without the bat drag. Lots of work ahead but he looks quick and athletic so there should be a good payoff. Check Siggy's video and pics for illustrations of what I mean by athletic posture and bat drag. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[LAball]

Seriously? He has neither good posture nor good connection nor good rotation and he's got bat drag. Fairly common pattern. Needs to get in an athletic posture and learn how to rotate from there without the bat drag. Lots of work ahead but he looks quick and athletic so there should be a good payoff. Check Siggy's video and pics for illustrations of what I mean by athletic posture and bat drag. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

Yes, I dont like his posture and it does lead him to have less connection, but the connection he does have, he uses to emphasis rotation on his swing. Is it good rotation? not realy, but the kid appears to emphasis it when he swings.

[David Boyd]

Check Siggy's video and pics for illustrations of what I mean by athletic posture and bat drag.

I took a look at the site. I see what you mean about posture and starting weight shift before the hands go.

Regarding Connection, from the Ortiz clip, this is the same as 'maintaining the box?' Are there verbal cues you use to help learn this?

[Mark H]

but the connection he does have,.

If bat drag can be considered connection, then it's a form of connection that takes way too long to happen and should be avoided at all costs if you plan to hit good pitching consistently. At the risk of upsetting Ray and the HI crew, I'd send this dad to Siggy's website and Englishbey but I'm sure he would be much better following any of the gurus promoted by the posters on this website than he is now. I could sugar coat this assessment of his mechanics but I'd rather dad hate me now and get serious about his swing education rather than like me now and leave this hitter the way he is.

[Mark H]

I took a look at the site. I see what you mean about posture and starting weight shift before the hands go.

Regarding Connection, from the Ortiz clip, this is the same as 'maintaining the box?' Are there verbal cues you use to help learn this?

Any number of verbal cues can be used and any of them could be detrimental or helpful to any particular hitter depending on how the hitter interprets them. As Booth somewhere said maintaining the box is basically a cue for connection. It's not about cues, it's about the instructor, and eventually the student, understanding the goal. Till then, any cue and any drill can and will be perverted based on the instructor and or hitter's former frame of reference/understanding/paradigm.

[David Boyd]

...I'd rather dad hate me now...

I don't hate you. That'd be silly. I asked for advice. I appreciate honest feedback. It's clear that Jack has much room for improvement. A sugarcoated assessment on a message board doesn't do him (or me) any good.

It's not about cues, it's about the instructor, and eventually the student, understanding the goal.

I'll buy that. Explain the goal to me in your terms.

[Mark H]

I don't hate you. That'd be silly. I asked for advice. I appreciate honest feedback. It's clear that Jack has much room for improvement. A sugarcoated assessment on a message board doesn't do him (or me) any good..

And certainly that's the right way to take it. I was being a little tongue in cheek.



I'll buy that. Explain the goal to me in your terms.

Whew. There are a lot of ways to answer that. Some short some long. The goal is to figure out the most efficient quickest way to get the barrel around and meet the ball as consistently as possible with sufficient bat speed to at least make the outfielders run backwards. How to do that? Well there is much hard drive space taken up on here and any number of other boards arguing that point. I can type till the keys wear out and not make sure we are not misinterpreting each other so referring to video clips helps understand the words. Understanding where you are coming from helps me state things in ways that make sense to you as well. To state the end goal rather than training protocols that vary depending on the hitter's individual problems, be able to develop at least a little momentum into good rotation (as you see in MLB clips of elite hitters and as described by, among others, Englishbey, Dixon and Nyman), that good rotation being part and parcel of good athletic posture (think dead lift) and connecting all that rotation efficiently to the bat in such a manner that the rotation and the maintaining of the angle of the bat to the bottom hand forearm stays at 90 or a little less till late in the swing when a well timed whip/flail accelerates the bat head into the ball. Now all that could probably be stated better as it's off the cuff and it may not mean much to you depending on your current paradigm but this may help some. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

So what is your background in terms of studying about hitting?

[azmatsfan]

I took a look at the site. I see what you mean about posture and starting weight shift before the hands go.

Regarding Connection, from the Ortiz clip, this is the same as 'maintaining the box?' Are there verbal cues you use to help learn this?

Notice in the Ortiz clip where his back elboow is located. It's close to his body throughout the swing. Some call this keeping the elbow "slotted". I believe this is easier for a young hitter to focus on. The "box" is the result of a good swing, but I believe it's a difficult cue for kids to use.

[Mark H]

Not sure why that would be but I would offer an opposing view point that the top hand elbow can be in the slot and still have a disconnect happen between the rotating shoulders and the bat.

[azmatsfan]

Not sure why that would be but I would offer an opposing view point that the top hand elbow can be in the slot and still have a disconnect happen between the rotating shoulders and the bat.

Maybe, but if he doesn't keep the elbow slotted he'll never stay connected. I've found this to be a helpful cue for kids this age with similar swings. I know some one here don't like using the term "slotting", and it's not a cure-all, but it gives the kids a place to start.

[David Boyd]

So what is your background in terms of studying about hitting?

I'm relatively new to it. I've read Science of Hitting and Lau's book and watched Emanski's DVD and Englishbey's first DVD.

My kid has taken a few lessons with local instructors and gone to a few college day camps. I've sat in on those.

His on-field results have been pretty good, but I saw something somewhere, may have been this board, where someone said if you weren't videotaping and watching in slow motion then you were clueless about what was happening with the swing. Made sense to me, so I recently got a camera and motion software. I noticed the bat drag right away. 'Maintaining the box' is a new term to me and the idea of shifting weight with the baseball swing is a new idea to me, but I understand it from golf.

Something that is confusing is the idea of the hands following the body, but then keeping the back elbow from leading. That's why I asked for verbal clues earlier. I can see what is happening in the videos you all have posted, but I'm not sure how to begin developing that form.

[mudvnine]

Dave, since we're again throwing out hitting instructors here, I would definitely do your son a favor and invetigate Dave Hudgens' DVD series, I can vouch for their excellence and what they did for my sons and he has the bio to support his teachings:

2005-present: Cleveland Indians Hitting Coordinator
2003–2005: Oakland A’s Hitting Instructor
1999–2002: Oakland A's Assistant Director of Player Development/Hitting Coordinator
1990–1995: Houston Astros Hitting Instructor
1985–1989: A's Minor League Manager
1981–1984: Oakland A's Player
1979–1981: Cleveland Indians Player
1975: NY Mets 1st Round Draft Pick

We are now continuing our education with Dr. Chris Yeager's DVDs and find them to also be excellent; they are helping us refine and change some Hudgens' works that better meet some of the techniques we've been implementing.

Dr. Yeager also works with MLB hitters as the Hitting and Pitching Mechanics Analyst for the San Diego Padres Player Development Department since 2004, and is able to put his techniques and instruction to direct MLB scrutiny through analysis and player interaction.

Although we haven't used his material, others here speak very highly of Mike Epstien and I have seen several hitters at the HS level that have used his teachings and were quite successful.

We are not supposed to give direct links to paid websites, but a Google search for Dr. Chris Yeager and Dave Hudgens will get in the right direction. Do your research throughly before setting off on the great adventure, spending a little time now will save you hundreds of hours in the future.


Good luck in your hitting travels,

[mudvnine]

Something that is confusing is the idea of the hands following the body, but then keeping the back elbow from leading. That's why I asked for verbal clues earlier. I can see what is happening in the videos you all have posted, but I'm not sure how to begin developing that form.

Dave, I've been able to get hitters understand the concept by equating it to a boxer throwing a punch (more specifically an upper-cut).

The boxer generates his power with his foot plant and hips, rotates into the punch, and keeps his elbow behind his hand, then drives the hand through extension (as best as possible with an opponent in front of him stopping the movement).

Try throwing a punch leading with an elbow or hand ahead of the hips, or without rotation as in linear "hands to the ball" teaching and compare that to the above "rotational" technique, most kids get it right away.

[Ursa Major]

David Boyd said: Something that is confusing is the idea of the hands following the body, but then keeping the back elbow from leading. That's why I asked for verbal clues earlier. I can see what is happening in the videos you all have posted, but I'm not sure how to begin developing that form.What is helpful in keeping the back elbow from coming forward is to start with the understanding that the back arm provides very little impetus to the swing until the rotation of the hips/torso/shoulders (in that order) has brought the bathead almost into the strike zone. At that point, it does two things, it provides through the back wrist a little "snap" to propel the bathead, and the back arm forms an "L" shape so that it braces the bat when the ball hits the bathead. (If the back elbow is forward, it provides no bracing and inevitably the ball knocks the bathead backwards or up or down, dissipating much of the power that could have been privided by the bathead.)

Bottom arm only swings while slightly choking up on the bat (and keeping the bottom wrist cocked as long as possible) can be helpful in assuring the kid that the body and bottom (front) arm provide most of the power, and also add a check against disconnection and early bat droop, because doing the swing "wrong" will actually cause the bottom arm wrist to ache, as it's unsupported due to a lack of centrifugal force in the swing.

Also, swinging into a heavy bag or the like will help detect whether the kid is disconnecting too soon and allowing the back elbow to come forward, because the contact with the bag will freeze the swing at the contact point.