Am I teaching this right (Pitching)?

[FeelGoodChicken]

This is the first year that I have tought my 10u to pitch. Before he pitched just fine and I did not know a lot about pitching. But his new little league coach tried to teach him and I thought the method was all wrong so I started looking into how to pitch and teach it. Most of my info comes from Chris O’Leary’s web site. Below is a video of three different pitches from three different angles. I didn’t number the frames or slow the video down on key spots but I can figure how to do that if you want to see them. I just want to know if I have taught him right and his mechanics look good. Also what I can do to imporve upon it. There are some follow up questions but I will save them for now. Thanks for you time and your comments.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E6kAZoZNvo

[Chris O'Leary]

This is the first year that I have tought my 10u to pitch. Before he pitched just fine and I did not know a lot about pitching. But his new little league coach tried to teach him and I thought the method was all wrong so I started looking into how to pitch and teach it. Most of my info comes from Chris O’Leary’s web site. Below is a video of three different pitches from three different angles. I didn’t number the frames or slow the video down on key spots but I can figure how to do that if you want to see them. I just want to know if I have taught him right and his mechanics look good. Also what I can do to imporve upon it. There are some follow up questions but I will save them for now. Thanks for you time and your comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E6kAZoZNvo

He looks solid to me.

[mudvnine]

He looks solid to me.

Chris, I make NO claim of being a pitching coach, but this young man seems to be dropping his arm into a side arm slot (best seen in the 2nd and 3rd pitches), is this something you encourage or is a 3/4 a "better" position for efficiency and reduction of arm injury as I've heard elsewhere?

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, I make NO claim of being a pitching coach, but this young man seems to be dropping his arm into a side arm slot (best seen in the 2nd and 3rd pitches), is this something you encourage or is a 3/4 a "better" position for efficiency and reduction of arm injury as I've heard elsewhere?

I generally prefer a higher (e.g. 3/4) arm slot because I think it can improve consistency and control, but I don't have a problem with it for injury reasons. There are lots of HOF guys who threw sidearm.

You could even argue that a low arm slot is better for the shoulder.

If this is the kid's natural arm slot, which I assume it is, then I wouldn't mess with him.

[FeelGoodChicken]

The side arm slot was one of my follow up questions, specifically the injure risks. I feel this is his natural arm slot since he throws the same way from the outfield and at shortstop.

The one thing I would like to correct with the arm slot is that at times he throws consistently outside to right handed batters and other days he is right over the plate with the ball sinking for a low strike. How do you correct this? Or is this just practice, practice, practice.

[Chris O'Leary]

The side arm slot was one of my follow up questions, specifically the injure risks. I feel this is his natural arm slot since he throws the same way from the outfield and at shortstop.

The one thing I would like to correct with the arm slot is that at times he throws consistently outside to right handed batters and other days he is right over the plate with the ball sinking for a low strike. How do you correct this? Or is this just practice, practice, practice.

He needs to ignore the batter and just throw to the glove.

[Rufus67]

The couple of things I noticed are "tweaky" things and not anything fundamental:


Set position - would like to see the feet shoulder-distance apart and knees bent. As he gets older the runners will lead off and he'll need to develop a pick-off. This is easier from an athletic position then a legs straight, feet together stance he has now.
Pivot foot - he should allow his pivot (pitching rubber) foot to come up after he delivers. He seems to be leaving it on the rubber. He becomes a fielder as soon as the pitch leaves his hand so bringing that foot up and assuming a "ready" fielding position facing the batter will serve him better on comebackers

You and he are to be commended on two things in particular:


Stride - he strides straight to the plate instead of to either side. That is a tremendous accomplishment in a 10U and something I see infrequently (granted, I'm mostly around rec ball and not elite travel ball).
Stride foot landing - it's pointing straight ahead to his target. I like a slightly-closed landing (pointing to the LH batter's box), but he is still good. Landing that way allows his hips to open up and, in turn, his upper body to rotate during delivery. Very nice.

The last point I'll bring up, and this is more for discussion amongst us all, is about his upper body. At rotation it appears his chest is pointing up instead of driving down the mound to his target, almost to the point where he seems to be leaning backward as he starts the forward pitching motion (could be due to the flat nature of the mound). My son was doing this and, once we talked about it, he started driving down the mound resulting in more ground balls and called strikes low in the zone (there are other factors that go into the results, I know, but this is one thing we picked up on that, when he concentrates on it, results in more consistent pitch location). I'm interested to hear from others on this.

[Chris O'Leary]

Set position - would like to see the feet shoulder-distance apart and knees bent. As he gets older the runners will lead off and he'll need to develop a pick-off. This is easier from an athletic position then a legs straight, feet together stance he has now.

I agree.

I have seen a too-narrow stance lead to balance and consistency problems



Pivot foot - he should allow his pivot (pitching rubber) foot to come up after he delivers. He seems to be leaving it on the rubber. He becomes a fielder as soon as the pitch leaves his hand so bringing that foot up and assuming a "ready" fielding position facing the batter will serve him better on comebackers

His foot does come off the rubber, so I wouldn't worry about it.


[The last point I'll bring up, and this is more for discussion amongst us all, is about his upper body. At rotation it appears his chest is pointing up instead of driving down the mound to his target, almost to the point where he seems to be leaning backward as he starts the forward pitching motion (could be due to the flat nature of the mound). My son was doing this and, once we talked about it, he started driving down the mound resulting in more ground balls and called strikes low in the zone (there are other factors that go into the results, I know, but this is one thing we picked up on that, when he concentrates on it, results in more consistent pitch location). I'm interested to hear from others on this.

I don't see a problem.

Back in the day they used to call this "Proud Chest". You could argue that this helps to stretch the muscles of the front side.

[FeelGoodChicken]

Thanks Rufus, he has worked really hard and all I did was tell him what he needed to do. All the commending goes to him.

Being athletic with feet apart and knees bent will be the next thing I will show him. Thanks for pointing that out.

Thanks Chris and thanks for your web site, like I said most of the info I taught him came from there.

[StraightGrain11]

Chris, something is wrong. It's not the arm slot, though (as you said).

It's something along the lines of his hip rotation/unload to the plate. Instead of bring his leg more "straight downward" and "striding" to the plate, he is trying to "STEP to" the plate right out of his leg kick (it actually looks similar to a karate kick :rolleyes:). This is cuasing his hips to "lock-up" and is the reason his rear leg is "dragging" on the follow thru. Basically, he needs to stay closed longer. :)
Do you see this?

He is not "closing" his hips off during leg kick - he's "masking" it by crossing his foot over the rubber (this is occuring because he is "kicking" his foot back rather than "lifting" his leg). Try having him keep his foot directly under his knee durin leg lift - and if he wants his foot to still cross the rubber, make him do it by moving his knee (which means the hips will have to turn :)).

[callyjr]

Chris, something is wrong. It's not the arm slot.

It's something along the lines of his hip rotation/unload to the plate. Instead of bring his leg more "straight downward" and "striding" to the plate, he is trying to "STEP to" the plate right out of his leg kick. This is cuasing his hips to "lock-up" and is the reason his rear leg is "dragging" on the follow thru. Basically, he needs to stay closed longer. :)
Do you see this?

that was the 1st thing I noticed, its up down and out not up and out. but i am no pitching guru so I felt i should let you all say waht your gonna say and learn from you all.

[StraightGrain11]

Here are a few clips to give you an idea...

[tom.guerry]

I highly recommend Ron Wolforth's materials from pitchingcentral/athletic pitcher.

[FeelGoodChicken]

It's something along the lines of his hip rotation/unload to the plate. Instead of bring his leg more "straight downward" and "striding" to the plate, he is trying to "STEP to" the plate right out of his leg kick (it actually looks similar to a karate kick :rolleyes:). This is cuasing his hips to "lock-up" and is the reason his rear leg is "dragging" on the follow thru. Basically, he needs to stay closed longer. :)


I understand this part and I see it.


He is not "closing" his hips off during leg kick - he's "masking" it by crossing his foot over the rubber (this is occuring because he is "kicking" his foot back rather than "lifting" his leg). Try having him keep his foot directly under his knee durin leg lift - and if he wants his foot to still cross the rubber, make him do it by moving his knee (which means the hips will have to turn :)).

Not sure I understand some of this.

I did notice the "stepping" that he does (when I filmed him I did but I didn't noticed before that) and I think I know why it is happening. He has just started to learn to land on his front foot with the heel or flat footed. Before, he was landing toe first. Now he is really thinking about the landing and that may be the reason for the "stepping" motion. A couple of days ago I tried to get him to stride sideways toward the plate with his toe pointing toward first until the last second before he plants his foot, then land heel first or flat footed, with toe pointed toward home. Is this right? Is that what he should evenutally do? At least that is what I am seeing in the videos. and frame by frames.

[StraightGrain11]

I understand this part and I see it.



Not sure I understand some of this.

I did notice the "stepping" that he does (when I filmed him I did but I didn't noticed before that) and I think I know why it is happening. He has just started to learn to land on his front foot with the heel or flat footed. Before, he was landing toe first. Now he is really thinking about the landing and that may be the reason for the "stepping" motion. A couple of days ago I tried to get him to stride sideways toward the plate with his toe pointing toward first until the last second before he plants his foot, then land heel first or flat footed, with toe pointed toward home. Is this right? Is that what he should evenutally do? At least that is what I am seeing in the videos. and frame by frames.

You STOPPED him from landing on his TOE and forced him to go to landing on his HEEL??? May I ask why? Flat-footed is fine.
http://students.ou.edu/C/Daniel.J.Church-1/clemens.jpg
http://www.sport-it.com/sportscollectibles/clemens08.jpg
A couple of days ago I tried to get him to stride sideways toward the plate with his toe pointing toward first until the last second before he plants his foot, then land heel first or flat footed, with toe pointed toward home. Is this right? Is that what he should evenutally do? At least that is what I am seeing in the videos. and frame by frames.
And, yes, that is correct. But a better way to describe would be to tell him "heel first - lead with the heel".
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Pitchers/CurtSchilling_2006_001.jpg

[FeelGoodChicken]

You STOPPED him from landing on his TOE and forced him to go to landing on his HEEL??? May I ask why? Flat-footed is fine.

Two reasons. One, when he went in toe first, the foot was pointing toward the middle of home plate and first base. Two, because most mounds at this level are not kept up, it seemed that he had better footing while going heel first. He didn’t slip as much and his foot was pointing right at home plate. Below is a game clip of him landing toe first. Not sure which is better now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJVMG7gofbg

[StraightGrain11]

Two reasons. One, when he went in toe first, the foot was pointing toward the middle of home plate and first base. Two, because most mounds at this level are not kept up, it seemed that he had better footing while going heel first. He didn’t slip as much and his foot was pointing right at home plate. Below is a game clip of him landing toe first. Not sure which is better now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJVMG7gofbg
If you land on your toe when you're hitting, why not do the same when you are pitching?
Landing toe first is fine, as long as he is getting the footed planted and maintaining that plant - not spinning on it - THAT would be bad! Then, instead of his forward momentum being "stopped and re-directed" back up through the body, it is absorbed by the spin - thus costing you both velocity and location.
The reason I prefer to teach "landing on the the toe/flat-footed" is because it promotes this:
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Pitchers/CurtSchilling_2006_001.jpghttp://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Pitchers/MarianoRivera_2006_003.jpghttp://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_StridingSideways_DaisukeMatsuzaka_2006_018 .jpghttp://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_Rushing_GoodTiming_JamieMoyer_002.jpg
STAYING CLOSED :nod: (if you are "leading with the heel", you're TOE is closer to the ground)

Also, think of it this way...if you had to walk/run a mile, but with a stipulation: you couldn't walk/run it "normally" - you had to do it either completely on your heels or completely on your toes - how would you do it? On your TOES, of course! Why? Because we have been better balance/agility/strength muscles associated with the ball of the foot than we do with the heel of it. :nod:

The first picture is the "foot kick". You want his knee to be where the green dot is (which would cause him to "close up" more); foot (red) is fine - as long as it's under the knee.

The second group of photos, shows that he is not "bracing-up" on the plant leg - he's not re-directing his momentum back up his body. Instead of all the energy going to the ball, it's going out the bend in the knee. He needs to mainain the angle his leg gets to once his foot hits the ground. The fact he is throwing off of a "flat mound" does not matter - the foot adjusts to slope of the mound, the leg stays the same. :)

[FeelGoodChicken]

Well, yall have gave me some things to think about and a lot of things to work on. Maybe when I feel he has got the mechanics down better I will post an update. Tks to all.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, something is wrong. It's not the arm slot, though (as you said).

It's something along the lines of his hip rotation/unload to the plate. Instead of bring his leg more "straight downward" and "striding" to the plate, he is trying to "STEP to" the plate right out of his leg kick (it actually looks similar to a karate kick :rolleyes:). This is cuasing his hips to "lock-up" and is the reason his rear leg is "dragging" on the follow thru. Basically, he needs to stay closed longer. :)
Do you see this?:)).

I see this too.

The question is how to fix it and when.

In general, rather than up, down, and out, I prefer sweeping motion (e.g. out toward 3B and then into footplant) ala Greg Maddux or Pedro Martinez. Some people describe this as a rotational GS foot movement versus a linear GS foot movement.

The issue though is whether a 10YO can do this.

[FeelGoodChicken]

Sort of an update to my son’s pitching. This year was my son’s first year playing minors little league and he was chosen for the National League Honor’s team. Last night was the last game for that team in which they played the American League Honor’s team. Their were 5 players chosen off my son’s regular season team to be on the Honors. I felt the coaches for the Honor’s team played favorites. Reason being, and this is not the point of the post, is that all 5 players played out of their normal positions and played mainly the outfield and when substitutes were called for these 5 players substituted among themselves for the most part. Plus every kid sat but the coach’s son. I would not have complained if it were not for the other parents stating the same thing as I was seeing it on the field. And my son was more than upset that he hadn’t gotten the chance to play short stop. At every practice for this team, he played short stop because not all the kids showed up for practice. My son even asked to play short stop in a game that practically was over (22-2 at the top of the fourth in their favor). The coach refused him even though by the rules he could have played him there for the bottom of the inning. My son never once pitched for this team, in games, practice, or a practice game against other teams, and one coach only saw him throw thirty pitches on the side, the other saw none. After my son told me that he no longer wanted to play for the honor’s team, I spoke to the coaches.

Last night’s game my son finally got to pitch in the third inning. Since he hasn’t had game time pitching since May, I was worried about how he would do. I didn’t need to worry. The first batter went down, one, two, three. A smile crept across my face. The next two batters he started off ball and two strikes, but he lost both to walks. The next batter got two quick strikes and the third strike was a called strike because the batter was hitting the deck. When the catcher caught the pitch, for some reason the runner on second took off to third. The catcher threw the guy out and the inning was over. Stats, 18 pitches, two walks, and two strike outs.

Other than pitching he also played short stop for an inning, recorded one out at second, and assisted with an out on a runner stealing from first.

Coaching is hard and favoritism is a problem that happens every where, but I’m glad my son showed these coaches that he could have helped out the team in other areas than just the outfield.

[rkbenn]

This is the first year that I have tought my 10u to pitch. Before he pitched just fine and I did not know a lot about pitching. But his new little league coach tried to teach him and I thought the method was all wrong so I started looking into how to pitch and teach it. Most of my info comes from Chris O’Leary’s web site. Below is a video of three different pitches from three different angles. I didn’t number the frames or slow the video down on key spots but I can figure how to do that if you want to see them. I just want to know if I have taught him right and his mechanics look good. Also what I can do to imporve upon it. There are some follow up questions but I will save them for now. Thanks for you time and your comments.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E6kAZoZNvo



Get the Tom House Pitching Mechanics video. I feel the best out there.

[rkbenn]

Sort of an update to my son’s pitching. This year was my son’s first year playing minors little league and he was chosen for the National League Honor’s team. Last night was the last game for that team in which they played the American League Honor’s team. Their were 5 players chosen off my son’s regular season team to be on the Honors. I felt the coaches for the Honor’s team played favorites. Reason being, and this is not the point of the post, is that all 5 players played out of their normal positions and played mainly the outfield and when substitutes were called for these 5 players substituted among themselves for the most part. Plus every kid sat but the coach’s son. I would not have complained if it were not for the other parents stating the same thing as I was seeing it on the field. And my son was more than upset that he hadn’t gotten the chance to play short stop. At every practice for this team, he played short stop because not all the kids showed up for practice. My son even asked to play short stop in a game that practically was over (22-2 at the top of the fourth in their favor). The coach refused him even though by the rules he could have played him there for the bottom of the inning. My son never once pitched for this team, in games, practice, or a practice game against other teams, and one coach only saw him throw thirty pitches on the side, the other saw none. After my son told me that he no longer wanted to play for the honor’s team, I spoke to the coaches.

Last night’s game my son finally got to pitch in the third inning. Since he hasn’t had game time pitching since May, I was worried about how he would do. I didn’t need to worry. The first batter went down, one, two, three. A smile crept across my face. The next two batters he started off ball and two strikes, but he lost both to walks. The next batter got two quick strikes and the third strike was a called strike because the batter was hitting the deck. When the catcher caught the pitch, for some reason the runner on second took off to third. The catcher threw the guy out and the inning was over. Stats, 18 pitches, two walks, and two strike outs.

Other than pitching he also played short stop for an inning, recorded one out at second, and assisted with an out on a runner stealing from first.

Coaching is hard and favoritism is a problem that happens every where, but I’m glad my son showed these coaches that he could have helped out the team in other areas than just the outfield.

We all been there. My kid is on the 9-10 allstars and when the coaches kids are stuggling with their pitching they throw my kid in. Of course my kid is the smallest and youngest, but one of the best 3 pitchers IMO. When they are in a spot they put him in to stop the bleeding. In Majors, he walked no batters and in Allstars has not walk a single batter, and throws 50mph or so. It's tough sometimes, but tell him to hang in there.

[jacksimpk]

There has been a lot of comment on heel and toe here. I think this has more an effect of when he opens his hips and comes around then what he is supposed to look like when he lands.

Basically power comes from the lower body in pitching much the same as in hitting. You want hip/shoulder "separation" to generate tourque power from the torso. The toe being "open" (ie pointing at the plate) is an indicator the hips have come around. The later this occurs in the pitch the more torque the body's trunk (core muscles) are putting on the ball and more power is being generated. Some places you hear this referred to as "explosiveness" or "hip explosion" From what I see in the video he is opening early. Work on coming down with toe pointing toward first and when the hips come around and he finishes his toe will end up pointing at the plate.

The other place power comes from in pitching ( not so much in hitting) is mass transfer from the rear leg to the front leg. He is clearly dragging his rear foot at the release point of the ball. This indicates he is leaving weight on that back foot (leg). This will rob his pitch of velocity.

Now I would predict that as you get his mechanics optimized to full power he will need to adjust from sidearm to more over hand deliver to get the ball over the plate. What it looks like is he is robbing velocity to maintain accuracy. Play a little long ball with him and see what he does to get the ball to you from 100 feet away. I'd bet he has to change his mechanics to power throw from a distance and still get it to the target consistently. What ever he changes to do that incorporate it in his pitching.

That's my $.02

Jack