Hitter new to rotational hitting

[dhardy123]

Hi guys,

I have read alot about rotational hitting. I also ordered the Epstein DVDs today but wanted to get started as soon as possible with my son. He is 13yo and is having a rough year so far with groundouts and foul balls. I have looked at his swing videos and he is doing alot wrong. His front knee is bent, he has bat drag and his head moves alot during the swing. While I am waiting for these DVDs to come in, are there any drills that we can work on to get a head start? What area should I focus on first? Hips/Legs? Head? Shoulders and Arms?

I have clips that I could post of his swing but it is sooo far away from rotational hitting that it probably isnt worth it.

[Jake Patterson]

Hi guys,

I have read alot about rotational hitting. I also ordered the Epstein DVDs today but wanted to get started as soon as possible with my son. He is 13yo and is having a rough year so far with groundouts and foul balls. I have looked at his swing videos and he is doing alot wrong. His front knee is bent, he has bat drag and his head moves alot during the swing. While I am waiting for these DVDs to come in, are there any drills that we can work on to get a head start? What area should I focus on first? Hips/Legs? Head? Shoulders and Arms?

I have clips that I could post of his swing but it is sooo far away from rotational hitting that it probably isnt worth it.
D, there are several thread already discussing this. If you do a search for rotational hitting you will find more than you can read.

[dhardy123]

I have done a search but didn't find alot of beginner drills. I guess I should rephrase my question: What part of the swing is the most important to focus on first? Legs/Hips? Arms/Shoulders? Head? etc

[Mark H]

It's a total system problem with a total system solution. I suggest reading everything you can get to on Englishbey's site and studying this link. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[StraightGrain11]

I have done a search but didn't find alot of beginner drills. I guess I should rephrase my question: What part of the swing is the most important to focus on first? Legs/Hips? Arms/Shoulders? Head? etc

The Legs derive power from creating a stable base with the ground.
The Hips are the "vehicle" that transfer the energy derived by the legs to the upper-body.
The Upper-Body derives it's power from rotation (loading/unloading or "coiling/uncoiling"), and is a vehicle for the previous energy to be transfered into the arms and out to the bat.
The Head should remain "still" to help retain the body's "posture" throughout the swing - which helps keeps all the transferring of energy, from one segment to another, as efficient ("waste-free") as possible. :)

[Jake Patterson]

I have done a search but didn't find alot of beginner drills. I guess I should rephrase my question: What part of the swing is the most important to focus on first? Legs/Hips? Arms/Shoulders? Head? etcIf you are beginning I would start a new hitter with PCR. Establish good POSTURE, being able to stay CONNECTED and ROTATE(ION) keeping the upper body connected. There are many adjustments that can be made after a player understands this concept, but I believe it's a great place to begin.

[mbs]

Start with Yeager....Then go ahead and look at the others....Yeager's stuff is concrete and supported by most.....It will definitely help you avoid bad advice.....

[Nater44]

The Legs derive power from creating a stable base with ground.
The Hips are the "vehicle" that transfer the energy derived by the legs to the upper-body.
The Upper-Body derives it's power from rotation (loading/unloading or "coiling/uncoiling") and is a vehicle for the previous energy to be transfered into the arms and out to the bat.
The Head should remain "still" to help retain the body's "posture" throughout the swing - which helps keeps all the transferring of energy, from one segment to another, as efficient ("waste-free") as possible. :)

Tis good! The base is so important to focus on first. It drives everything else.

[dhardy123]

OK Thanks,

I wanted to get a head start this weekend so I will look at the PCR stuff.

Wish me luck!

[mbs]

with PCR--you're gonna need it!

[Jake Patterson]

with PCR--you're gonna need it!How would you teach a new hitter a good rotational swing without first starting with good posture, swinging with some connection and rotating through the swing?
Throw the hands to the ball?

[Infinite]

can you also say dont swing the bat with the arms but let the hips to shoulders rotate the bat?

[mbs]

How would you teach a new hitter a good rotational swing without first starting with good posture, swinging with some connection and rotating through the swing?
Throw the hands to the ball?

uh that (Throw the hands to the ball) would be a lot better than "just hold onto the bat and turn"!

[Jake Patterson]

uh that (Throw the hands to the ball) would be a lot better than "just hold onto the bat and turn"!
I am uncertain where your definition of PCR comes from, but mine is not "Just hold on to the bat and turn."

[Jake Patterson]

can you also say dont swing the bat with the arms but let the hips to shoulders rotate the bat?Many would call this maintaining connection.

[mbs]

I am uncertain where your definition of PCR comes from, but mine is not "Just hold on to the bat and turn."

ummmmm.....it is repeated constantly throughout enl;ishbay's DVDs....as you know Jake....

[ShawnB]

There are many things you could do.

You could do upperbody work focusing on a good swing, smooth, rythym, no major flaws (such as bat drag like you mentioned). This can involve a slight exaggeration of a "short swing", or staying inside the ball. While working on the upperbody you should not try to kill the ball, the legs and hips should be used with a lower level of effort, the shoulders should turn as well (there should be no restrictions in the swing, legs/hips/shoulders not turning). Also, when doing this the hips should not turn after the swing or after the hands have already started forward (like you see in many DVD's).

What you will find with Epstein is a way to make the bigger muscles do all the work. The upperbody is forced into only transferring the energy. The drills are setup so you don't do to much with the upperbody and they are setup to where don't do to much with the body (poor translation, out of balance, head position, etc.). You can also exaggerate a short swing in the drills, and there is no reason why you should have any bat drag while doing the drills.

Epstein stuff is pretty easy if used wisely. For example it's based on the old idea of the hands going backwards as you stride forward. A change of direction or the upperbody working against the lower body. It all "sounds" good although it can be unpractical if not done well, creating timing/sequence problems.

Anything you hear/read/watch and your knowledge of how to apply the information completely depends on your experience.

Yeager was mentioned and I see Yeager/Epstein saying the same things with some differences (upperbody for example).

[dhardy123]

Hmm ok,

do you suggest I just wait until the DVDs come in before starting anything? I was hoping I could get a head start with some drills that maybe focus on a specific area...

[Jake Patterson]

ummmmm.....it is repeated constantly throughout enl;ishbay's DVDs....as you know Jake....Then we will have to agree that your understanding and mine are different.

[Jesse]

What area should I focus on first? Hips/Legs? Head? Shoulders and Arms?
My opinion would be Legs/Hips, since that's where the swing begins.

I have clips that I could post of his swing but it is sooo far away from rotational hitting that it probably isnt worth it.
It would still be very beneficial to post them. Without concrete video to go by, all this advice you're getting is academic. We can make hitting generalizations all day long but without video no one can specifically address what your son is doing.

Hmm ok,

do you suggest I just wait until the DVDs come in before starting anything? I was hoping I could get a head start with some drills that maybe focus on a specific area...
I think people are hesitant to just throw drills out there because drills can be counterproductive if they're not used properly, or in context with the individual hitter's needs. The instruction material you've ordered will hopefully not only provide you with a multitude of drills, but also explain the theory behind each drill, which will give you a better chance of implementing the drill the way it was intended, and for the correct reasons. It's also helpful to the hitter if his instructor (in this case, you) has a good grasp of the fundamental theory behind the drill. My son is only 7, and I can tell you he's not going to buy into anything 100% unless he understands the purpose behind it. That's part of his personality - he questions everything. My daughter is more the "just tell me what to do and let's get on with it" type. I've found it very helpful to be able to actually sit and watch the instructional DVD with my son (we're working through Englishbey's now). He doesn't understand everything, but he see enough to know where I'm coming from when I introduce this drill or that one.

[tom.guerry]

epstein is a fine system, acutally the one I prefer of the available choices because it teaches the high level MLB swing, it is one of the few systems with adequate focus on teaching timing and adjustment, and it fits with a successful mental approach at the highest level of play.

you will most likely need a good instructor.

"Cally Jr" is the best I have seen with this system on the net, so look for him if you have questions here.

"PCR" as a system/blueprint (as in go to setpro or englishbey.com) is teaching a different way to use the body, so I would not mix that with epstein or you will slow learning.

Of course every swing as P,C and R, but that is pretty useless info. P,C,and R exist in every physical human activity, but in this case, you need P and C and R in the context of the swing type you are trying to learn/teach.

PCR as a system can work up to a certain point, but will not work for high level wood bat and it is not what you "see" most MLB power type role models doing

[chesspirate]

epstein is a fine system, acutally the one I prefer of the available choices
why do you prefer it? I mean, what reason do you have to prefer any of the "systems", what are the differences you have noticed in hitters you have worked with? And don't get into describing anybody but students you have personally worked with or it's just theoretical.

you will most likely need a good instructor.
can't fault this advice, but as argued ad nauseum here finding a truly good instructor can be difficult.

"PCR" as a system/blueprint... is teaching a different way to use the body
How can you say this when you immediately follow withOf course every swing has P,C and R, if every swing has it, then how can it be a different way of using the body?

P,C,and R exist in every physical human activity
this one stumped me. Well not totally, i see the angle you are trying to take to devalue the definitions but this is honestly even kinda simple for you.

you are at the same point defining PCR very rigidly, some would say incorrectly, to point out its' "flaws" while also defining PCR very generally to make it seem in a sense to simple to be worth anything.

Man, it's really easy to argue against something when you can fluidly alter it's definition within the same breath.

PCR as a system can work up to a certain point, but will not work for high level wood bat and it is not what you "see" most MLB power type role models doing BUT Of course every swing has P,C and R, AND P,C,and R exist in every physical human activity

Tom, let me just finish with this. If you have the inclination to report the benefits of a particular "system" then by all means please share your good natured suggestions with the original poster. But, you have in now way benefited him with your rant. The question was posed are there any drills that we can work on to get a head start? What area should I focus on first? Hips/Legs? Head? Shoulders and Arms? and he already said he purchased Epstein material. I mean, what more do you need?

If you would have just left your post at epstein is a fine system, acutally the one I prefer of the available choices because it teaches the high level MLB swing, it is one of the few systems with adequate focus on teaching timing and adjustment, and it fits with a successful mental approach at the highest level of play.

you will most likely need a good instructor.

"Cally Jr" is the best I have seen with this system on the net, so look for him if you have questions here.
I don't think anyone would have such a big problem with you. And quite honestly i think these boards would be more cival and be a greater benefit to all instead of forcing people to clarify and correct your statements.

In the end this isn't a hitting argument, and it hasn't been for you in a long while, why don't we get back on track and actually try to help people without all the extra bull?

[tom.guerry]

>>>>see responses to chess<<<

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.guerry
epstein is a fine system, acutally the one I prefer of the available choices
why do you prefer it? I mean, what reason do you have to prefer any of the "systems", what are the differences you have noticed in hitters you have worked with? And don't get into describing anybody but students you have personally worked with or it's just theoretical.

>>>>Epstein figured this out empirically based on his experience with how players learn, his experience at high level MLB(world series/homerun leader/etc) and his fitting in with/following Williams. he structures learning by controlling conection with bat on deltoid and learning first how to develop body torque as power for swing,then how to avoid lunging, then how to adjust up/down, then how to adjust in/out, then how to enhance rather than regress swing when going hands free.

winding rubberband and drop and tilt and weight shift descriptions are pretty good cues for preparing for and synching upper and lower body.

the epstein sysem is based on the perfect swing being about the adjustment you make with the swing progression incorporating the ability to “match the swing with the pitch” for an optimal impact zone for squaring ball and in addition to the up/down adjusment, there is the offspeed adjustent that is made possible by varying the rubberbandwinding.

the info on handle torque and in/out adjustment is a weak point which is bolstered well by tip and rip and mankin’s info esp on early batspeed creation.

i have never found the weight shift stuff to be a problem, but that seems to hang a lot of people up. I think I do not find it a problem because I focus on getting arm action right and this triggers/demands a good lower body action and shift.

it is particularly useful to understand how the impact zone concept is learned as described by Williams, not only in terms of being level to the pitch, but in timing terms where it is OK to be spatially slightly early or spatially slightly more late, better too late than too early, and how early means overspin and late means backspin.

then there is the entire book on mental side. start on time, don't be late when you get your pitch,etc,

no other system is this fully developed. it is important to put it in the context of Williams science of hitting with its emphasis on cocking hips, cocking hands and top hand as power hand/slight upswing.etc<<<<<<<<<<<<

Quote:
you will most likely need a good instructor.
can't fault this advice, but as argued ad nauseum here finding a truly good instructor can be difficult.


>>>>internet bulletin boards are not the place for hands on instruction. they can be the place for the MarkH steering of traffic to guru approach, but this forum should be best at providing info supported by video.<<<<<

Quote:
"PCR" as a system/blueprint... is teaching a different way to use the body
How can you say this when you immediately follow with
Quote:
Of course every swing has P,C and R,
if every swing has it, then how can it be a different way of using the body?

>>>>rotational/total body/kinetic link/high level/side-on type swings have several distinct patterns which all have different postures/ways of conecting/ways of rotating and sequencing of positions.

“PCR” or “PCRW” as designated by Nyman is a particular pattern that is encouraged by the particular blueprint/requirments/guardrails/goals that are put inplace around trial and error ecological learning.

this is basically a single plane middle dominant pattern that is NOT AT ALL like the two plane/shoulder tilt/separate upper/lower body/upper in control patern that works in MLB (and not much like overhand throw arm action either)

so while ALL swings have P.C,and R, the Nyman bases systems force the non-mlb version. Nyman does not recognize the distinct paterns that these body motions organize around. until you apply this filter which is best described in golf, this will continue to be meaningless to you<<<<<<

Quote:
P,C,and R exist in every physical human activity
this one stumped me. Well not totally, i see the angle you are trying to take to devalue the definitions but this is honestly even kinda simple for you.

you are at the same point defining PCR very rigidly, some would say incorrectly, to point out its' "flaws" while also defining PCR very generally to make it seem in a sense to simple to be worth anything.

Man, it's really easy to argue against something when you can fluidly alter it's definition within the same breath.

Quote:
PCR as a system can work up to a certain point, but will not work for high level wood bat and it is not what you "see" most MLB power type role models doing
BUT
Quote:
Of course every swing has P,C and R,
AND
Quote:
P,C,and R exist in every physical human activity
Tom, let me just finish with this. If you have the inclination to report the benefits of a particular "system" then by all means please share your good natured suggestions with the original poster. But, you have in now way benefited him with your rant. The question was posed
Quote:
are there any drills that we can work on to get a head start? What area should I focus on first? Hips/Legs? Head? Shoulders and Arms?
and he already said he purchased Epstein material. I mean, what more do you need?

>>>you need ongoing reliable acess to a good hands on in person instructor like Cally Jr<<<<<

If you would have just left your post at
Quote:
epstein is a fine system, acutally the one I prefer of the available choices because it teaches the high level MLB swing, it is one of the few systems with adequate focus on teaching timing and adjustment, and it fits with a successful mental approach at the highest level of play.

you will most likely need a good instructor.

"Cally Jr" is the best I have seen with this system on the net, so look for him if you have questions here.
I don't think anyone would have such a big problem with you. And quite honestly i think these boards would be more cival and be a greater benefit to all instead of forcing people to clarify and correct your statements.

In the end this isn't a hitting argument, and it hasn't been for you in a long while, why don't we get back on track and actually try to help people without all the extra bull?


>>>>one thing besides EGO that makes discussions here difficult is that people are discussing apples and oranges. 1 plane and 2 plane, NON-MLB and MLB patterns which are dramatically different. it would help to learn to apply the one vs 2 plane filter to make sense of the info here, just as Hardy in golf discovered the 1 v 2 plane filter as the “rosetta stone” for understanding/sorting all golf info.<<<<<<<
__________________
"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." - Alvin Toffler
"Do not dismiss what you do not understand"
"A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice." - Bill Cosby
"There are sound intellectual grounds for holding faith positions" - Fungo 22

>>>>where is ol’ fungo ?, maybe he wants to here more about pattern based absolutes or there IS such a thing as "good mechanics"<<<<<

[dhardy123]

Jesse,

i will post the clip later tonight but I warn you now that there are alot of problems with the swing. I really just need to start with the basics all over again, but thanks for the offer.

[dhardy123]

Here is the clip as asked for. It's ugly and we have alot of work to do...
http://www.davehardy.info/images/cole_side4.gif

[callyjr]

Hmm ok,

do you suggest I just wait until the DVDs come in before starting anything? I was hoping I could get a head start with some drills that maybe focus on a specific area...

yes, you already made your purchase, Just hang in there and pm me when you need help with the Epstein stuff.

Cally

[dhardy123]

Thanks Cally,

did you see the video I uploaded? Which area do you feel I need to concentrate on most with this hitter?

[Mark H]

Yes if you are going to do Epstein, Cally is right, wait for the dvd's. If I was answering your question I would say bat drag, posture and rotation but if you are going to do Epstein, then do Epstein. His drills will put you where he wants you. Refer to MLB clips when something doesn't make sense. Here's a few with commentary. Good luck. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[ShawnB]

It doesn't matter what program you use, none of them will solve the issues with his swing.

Epstein's drills might/should help him rotate better and use the front leg. He is more or less just pulling with the front side, front leg is dead.

It really doesn't matter if a hitter lowers the elbow early, what you don't want to see is the back arm going "dead" or any actions that indicate the swing is starting before the lower body (back arm/elbow moves forward, drop to the side of the body, etc.).

The top hand is the power hand. Any and all actions should create the energy for the arms/hands/bat. There shouldn't be a "break" in the sequence. The only people that talk about the lead arm pull or weak lefties slapping the ball the other way and or righties. The others are slowpitch hitters who extend the lead arm, to create more bat lag.

I would say both arms are used, although in your sons case both arms go dead (the top hand even more then the bottom).

Many people talk about connection, the "true" definition is a constant force being applied to an object (bat). In your sons case there is "way" to much slop.

I would do what I said previously, work on the upper body (do not completely break the connection of the lower body). One handed swings, specifically focusing on correct back arm action.

Epstein stuff will help, and his info. For instance his info would say the lead arm is barred or to straight ( that might be true, but it's not really the problem). His drills might help correct some of the arm/hand actions because the drills take away most arm actions, depending on how you do the drills.

[dhardy123]

Thanks Shawn,

I was thinking of rebuilding his swing completely before he moves on to -3 bats (next year) so I would probably be starting from scratch

[Chris O'Leary]

Here is the clip as asked for. It's ugly and we have alot of work to do...
http://www.davehardy.info/images/cole_side4.gif

The biggest issue is the pronounced bat drag.

Until you deal with this, nothing else matters.

[dhardy123]

Thanks Chris,

I noticed the bat drag too....any suggestions on how to correct?

[ShawnB]

Dhardy,

I told you how to correct it. It's a sequence problem, currently he collapses the arm/hands/bat into the body before the lower body, hip, torso supply any energy into the bat. He then tries to "use the body" to swing with dead lifeless arm/hands.

More then likely you will have to take away some of his arm action, until he learns how create a sequence without any slop or dead spots in the swing. The swing is one fluid motion, it's a sequence without any dead spots or lost force production and transfer.

There are several ways I would go about correcting the problem, somethings I already mentioned. Epstein's drills can help eliminate some of the slop and energy transfer, as compared to what he currently is doing (starting the swing, upperbody, before the lower body, basically a form of striding while swinging although the hands stay back). Epsteins drills eliminate arm action and puts the focus on the legs/hips/torso, which should break his pattern of pulling with the body with dead arms (bent front leg, dead front leg).

Like I said, it's not about who's information you use, it's about your experience with working with hitters. I would forget about searching for "rotational mechanics".

[dhardy123]

Thanks Shawn,

I guess I was confused by "dead zone" and arms gone "dead".

When we do the 1 handed swings, should we concentrate on keeping the elbows in close to the torso and the hand in front of the elbow?

[ShawnB]

I also mentioned it's one thing to lower the back arm before the lower body, and it's completely another things to collapses the arm/bat into the body before the lower body begins.

You can lower the elbow early, you can't collapses or let the arms go dead before the lower body begins. In this case the arm/hands try to start the swing before the lower body, and then they must "wait" for the body to get going, which throws off the sequence of the swing and creates chaos/slop.

[callyjr]

The biggest issue is the pronounced bat drag.

Until you deal with this, nothing else matters.

the torque drill will fix this, make sure you pm me when you start using the drills, there are a couple things I'll have you do to add to what your getting.

[ShawnB]

Yes, the hand should stay ahead of the elbow when the swing really begins. It might not be considered ahead if you start with the elbow up and while the elbow is lowering. It depends on how close the elbow stays to the body, if you Do Epstein's drills you might like his approach which has the elbow close to the body to begin with, and from there you could move it back farther as you progress.

By dead arm/hands refer to my last post on lowering the elbow early compared to collapsing the arms/bat into the body. He currently collapses the arm/bat into the body and "then" tries to use the body to swing. The arms and bat goes dead while waiting for the body to get going to swing.

Therefor it's not one fluid motion, it's chaos/slop throughout the entire sequence.

[dhardy123]

Oh ok,

so when you say "dead", you mean that they don't do anything for a certain length of time? I wasn't exactly sure what you had meant at first.

[ShawnB]

There are some things I would try with Epstein's approach. One would be starting with the weight slightly forward like his son Jake is doing while Epstein is explaining the sequence. This will create more of his analogy of the tether ball affect, by create a better block/push of the front leg.

Depending on what DVD you ordered?

He explains this in his material.

And the reason I would do this is because your son tries to pull the swing around/forward with the body to much on a bent leg.

[dhardy123]

Shawn,

I ordered the Video "Are you being taught what you see", the 7 day CD and the book....I hope that all of those things cover off the drills adequately enough to make some improvements.

You are right about the weight tho. I read somewhere to have the knees inside the feet with the weight a bit more centered rather than on the back leg as he does.

[ShawnB]

Yes, look at it. The elbow lowers early (which isn't always a bad thing) and then collapses into the body (barrel drops and flattens out), while "waiting" for the body to get going. He tries to initiate the swing with the upper body and then tries to swing with the body. The hands stay back while waiting for the body (and he lets the back elbow to continue to travel forward), after he initiates the swing sequence with the upper body.

[dhardy123]

I just ordered the Epstein stuff on Thursday and being from Canada, I don't expect it for another week or two. I initially asked the question about getting a headstart on some of his issues instead of waiting for the DVD. I will work on changing is posture & weight, as well as eliminating the bat drag & dead areas. Hopefully by then the DVDs will arrive.

[ShawnB]

Hardy,

Yes he explains everything I mentioned in that material. That is what I have, plus the mental book. I asked about the "on target series" and Jake said I didn't need them.

[dhardy123]

Shawn,

when you mention "The elbow lowers early (which isn't always a bad thing)", are you suggesting that the elbow is almost doing the correct thing and that if we could get the hand up rather than back behind the elbow then that would help correct some of the bat drag?

[ShawnB]

Epstein stuff is pretty simple, the drills.

Everything I ordered from Epstein was delivered promptly (it might take longer for Canada). We could explain everything, although it's better to see it, read it, and then discuss it.

There are some things I don't completely agree on. Although I've seen him explain it in a way that I do agree with.

[dhardy123]

I am looking forward to seeing it and putting it into practice

[ShawnB]

Let me see if I can find a hitter who lowers the elbow early.

If you lowered the elbow early as part of a pre-swing activity, without "really" trying to swing to soon, before the lower body. Then it is possible to have a good sequence between the lower/upper body. This would mean the hitter isn't trying align the bat to the ball before the lower body really started, or the back elbow didn't start "actually" moving forward to early, etc., etc..

It's possible and can be done a little differently, depending on the hitter.

I just watched a bunch of swings on DVD of Mantle in some old HR Derby competitions. He was swinging right handed all the time. I found it interesting that he was doing this in every swing. He started with the hands low and the barrel up and then slightly raised the hands and lowered the barrel to a 45 degree angle, prior to actually swinging (lower body started).

Mariners second baseman Lopez does a variation of this in most of his swings, although of course the hand/elbow starts from a higher position. And I think he just started doing it this year, trying to be a number two hitter, and doing all the things a number two hitter is asked to do. His HR total is a little lower this year, but that's what happens when your asked to move runners, etc..

[ShawnB]

Hardy,

I'm not finding the clips I want on my laptop, maybe if I was on the PC I could find the clips that would show something.

And I don't want you to make anything complicated.

Epstein has several good articles available on his website. He made all his older articles into a book and I happen to have some of his old articles printed, with some different pictures and stuff.

You might want to read through some of them to get familiar with his terminology.

The first article on the list talks about the back elbow. He says the high back elbow is a style issue, and he is right to some degree. If you can't swing without the swing falling apart with a high back elbow then it might not be the best thing for you. Although if you have a major sequence problem starting with the elbow lower will not solve the problem, it might simplify the swing and be a good place to start.

He says some interesting things in the article. He shows a picture of him with a high back elbow and says it caused him problems. One thing about the picture is his back elbow is pointing backwards when he is pretty close to toe touch. That can cause problems, and isn't, IMO, the best thing.

He says if the back elbow is up the front elbow must be down, and that is true for the most part. He says this faculates swinging down, and this is true. Although he makes it sound as if this is a negative thing, something to do with linear hitters and people that only swing down. If the back elbow was down to begin with, there wouldn't be any real need to swing down. With a higher elbow there is a need and a reason to think slightly down "first".

There are some different things anyone could try, if anything hitters make adjustments, some find something that works for them consistently and they try to stay with the same approach. I have a swing of Griffey from HS where he lowers the hands to his back hip and then brings them up, and obviously he didn't stay with this approach. I have one of Alex and his hands are lower, below the shoulder, and now they are a little higher.

There are many things we could discuss about the article, but if your looking to get a head start. I think he talks about many subjects and his terminology in the articles.

[dhardy123]

Thanks Shawn,

what articles are you talking about? Are they online or in a book?

[Mark H]

Like I said, it's not about who's information you use, it's about your experience with working with hitters.".

This makes no sense to me.


I would forget about searching for "rotational mechanics".

But I can agree with this. Rotational is a marketing word meaning a half dozen different things depending on who is using the term.

[Mark H]

Thanks Shawn,

I was thinking of rebuilding his swing completely before he moves on to -3 bats (next year) so I would probably be starting from scratch

Yes. This swing will not carry him against good pitching.

[Mark H]

It doesn't matter what program you use, none of them will solve the issues with his swing.


I'd say that depends on the quality of the program, his understanding of the program and the goal and his diligent execution of the program.

[Mark H]

The biggest issue is the pronounced bat drag.

Until you deal with this, nothing else matters.

I don't think you should deal with the bat drag as a separate issue. It's all intertwined.

[dhardy123]

Thanks Mark for the input,

I want to rebuild the swing asap but I'm sure it will take alot of hard work and effort. What is the success rate of completely overhauling a swing? If we put in the time, should it be somewhat successful or will there always be small issues and problems due to muscle memory, etc?

[Mark H]

It's not a painting that gets finished. Hitters work on their swings all their career. The later in life you change, in general the deeper the habits you have to fight. I can't account for the variables in your situation to say the success odds are X. Is success a good high school career, college career, etc? Learn as much about your goal as you can, continue to compare everything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world, work hard, see where that puts you, work again, rinse and repeat. The goal is to be better/more efficient and quick today than you were yesterday and better yet tomorrow. Success could be measured in batting average or it could be measured in the bond strengthened between father and son or it could be measured in life lessons learned about goal setting and hard work etc. Enjoy the journey. That's really more important than if you choose Epstein, Mankin, Yeager or Epstein to study.

[ShawnB]

This makes no sense to me.




But I can agree with this. Rotational is a marketing word meaning a half dozen different things depending on who is using the term.

That's because you don't coach Mark and you don't work with hitters on any consistent basis. So, it wouldn't make any sense to you.

[Mark H]

Well I guess it's Shawn's day to be cranky. Are you saying it doesn't matter what ideas or information you use as long as you have experience working with hitters? Still doesn't make sense. Perhaps you could educate me?

[Mark H]

After riding for an hour and a half, I'll say this. My doesn't make sense comment was meant as curiosity rather than you're wrong in terms of tone. Probably could have been worded better. Please elaborate.