Revisiting an earlier swing analysis [Archive]

jc_wells

06-26-2008, 02:15 PM

Hello, all...

Many moons ago, I started a thread regarding a swing clip of my son, which sparked some excellent discussion, and a lot of learning:

Previous swing analysis discussion (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58391)

I'd like to present two new swing clips, from the same bp session, and ask for your comments:

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/jcwellsq8/swing1_half.gif
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/jcwellsq8/swing2_half.gif

He has shown some good pop this past high school season, enough to earn 2A all-state honorable mention honors. However, I think that there is more power potential here, but I am having difficulty bringing that out. Any suggestions?

Cheers...

John

callyjr

06-26-2008, 02:27 PM

He is closed out restricting the hips and his weight is forward and off balance.

Dirtberry

06-26-2008, 02:29 PM

You may want to ask yourself why gather if it’s going to come to a complete
Stop and wait any ways?

This timing problem is caused by separating the hands and leg at different time intervals. He should start his initial forward force application while he is taking it back in his trigger!

jc_wells

07-02-2008, 01:53 PM

He is closed out restricting the hips and his weight is forward and off balance.

What would be your suggestion for correcting these issues? Perhaps flaring the front knee and foot open a bit at foot plant?

callyjr

07-02-2008, 02:17 PM

What would be your suggestion for correcting these issues? Perhaps flaring the front knee and foot open a bit at foot plant?

Look at his stance, he needs to get squared up at contact. Right now he is closed prior to the swing and he strides to the plate remaining closed. Its a comfort zone for him, but if your looking for power this is where your losing a lot of it.

Cally

jc_wells

07-02-2008, 02:22 PM

Cally, thanks for the insight. I'll work with him to ensure that he remains square to pitch and plate, to open him up a bit. Any other comments would be welcome!

Mark H

07-02-2008, 06:01 PM

That was a good thread and I'd reread it. I don't think I follow Dirt and I respectfully disagree with Cally. I suggest the place I'd look now for improvement is pelvic loading and unloading. Email me at mark_h45@hotmail.com and I'll send some clips of various hitters-Soriano comes to mind-to illustrate what I mean by pelvic loading and unloading. Here's a link for now. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=h6wdkhakq1.tiger_s?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

callyjr

07-02-2008, 11:04 PM

Mark,

are you gonna teach your kid to swing closed out? thats the only thing I mentioned he should look at changing. Once he does that then we can look at the real swing and see what changes.

Mark H

07-02-2008, 11:52 PM

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 12:23 AM

I'm going to teach him how to load and unload the pelvis letting pelvic rotation open the front foot when it opens it. I'm going to put him through some drills where he learns to rotate well with the front foot closed till at least late in rotation so he learns how to use his pelvis to rotate rather than his legs to spin.

Bingo! Mark nailed it. He's currently killing his primary source of power generation with his active front foot action.

The other thing I'd work on is improving his hip/shoulder spatial separation ... which is related to the secondary source of power generation ... but perhaps that is implied when you mentioned improving his "unloading" ... i.e., improving his transfer of momentum among various body segments.

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 09:03 AM

Look at his stance, he needs to get squared up at contact. Right now he is closed prior to the swing and he strides to the plate remaining closed. Its a comfort zone for him, but if your looking for power this is where your losing a lot of it.

Cally

It worked for Boggs.

http://builder.hittingillustrated.com/Pro/Boggs1.mpg

joof

07-03-2008, 09:51 AM

Mark

I'm going to teach him how to load and unload the pelvis letting pelvic rotation open the front foot when it opens it. I'm going to put him through some drills where he learns to rotate well with the front foot closed till at least late in rotation so he learns how to use his pelvis to rotate rather than his legs to spin.

And in doing so IMO you are going to give "him" some excellent advice and training - fundamental to initiating the kinetic chain and eliminating downstream chaos. Totally agree that the front leg internally and externally rotates in reaction to the extent and timing of the pelvic load and unload respectively.

When the load-unload sequence is driven by the pelvic while maintaining good athletic posture, "separation" naturally occurs for only a fleeting moment with it illustrated by shoulders and hips moving in nonparallel planes.

joof

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 10:55 AM

I'm going to teach him how to load and unload the pelvis letting pelvic rotation open the front foot when it opens it. I'm going to put him through some drills where he learns to rotate well with the front foot closed till at least late in rotation so he learns how to use his pelvis to rotate rather than his legs to spin.

When I read posts like this (especially the bolded portion above) then I wonder if we share more common beliefs. This is pretty much in agreement with my understanding of Chris Yeager's teachings. I will add that, IMO, that this improves the functionality of the front leg in terms of both "blocking" and in terms of "pushing backwards".

I'm still interested in that discussion on separation. I'd also like to hear more details of what you describe as "unloading". It's beginning to sound dangerously close to where Chris Yeager places an emphasis in terms of the primary & secoundary sources of force generation.

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 11:33 AM

When the load-unload sequence is driven by the pelvic while maintaining good athletic posture, "separation" naturally occurs for only a fleeting moment with it illustrated by shoulders and hips moving in nonparallel planes.

Can I get you to expand on the bolded portion above?

This happens to be something I've looked at with curiosity.

callyjr

07-03-2008, 12:44 PM

It worked for Boggs.

http://builder.hittingillustrated.com/Pro/Boggs1.mpg

does this kid look like Boggs? Boggs had 118 career HR's, The issue is not about can the kid hit, its about the kid wanting more power, His hips are clearly not getting through. you guys kill me. gotta challenge ever little thing said. see it for what it is and offer to help instead of trying to confuse every person on here.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/boggswa01.shtml

geez

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 12:53 PM

does this kid look like Boggs? The issue is not about can the kid hit, its about the kid wanting more power, His hips are clearly not getting through. you guys kill me. gotta challenge ever little thing said. see it for what it is and offer to help instead of trying to confuse every person on here.

geez

Does any kid look like any other kid? Is that important? Is it more important to understand the Kinetic link?

Do you feel that Boggs had an issue with lack of power? Do you feel that he was a failure?

Do you seriously believe that this kid's biggest limiting factor is his stance? Why wasn't this an issue for Boggs?

Take another look at this kid. His biggest limiting factor is not with his "stance".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of a closed stance, but I've seen it work often enough to say that it isn't an "absolute".

My recommendation is to first look at the major power sources of the swing. Mark's recommendation pretty much nailed where this kid could see a sizeable increase in force generation.

callyjr

07-03-2008, 01:26 PM

Did Boggs have the same issues that this kid does? Did I say the kid didn't have other issues? I simply said that his closed out stance is causing power issues and your reply to that is it didn't cause Boggs issues, but yes Boggs did have Power issues, and no matter what you do with this kid if he ends up closed out at contact the hips will not get through and he will lack power just like Boggs did. do you disagree with that?

Cally

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 02:04 PM

Did Boggs have the same issues that this kid does?

According to you, that would appear so. Your number one concern with this kid is his stance. However the same stance worked for others at the highest level of this game. Again, don't get me wrong, I don't like this kid's stance, but it is not his biggest limiting factor nor is it an 'absolute'.

I simply said that his closed out stance is causing power issues and your reply to that is it didn't cause Boggs issues, but yes Boggs did have Power issues, and no matter what you do with this kid if he ends up closed out at contact the hips will not get through and he will lack power just like Boggs did. do you disagree with that?

Do I agree with this? Not entirely. Why? Because your concern appears to be centered around addressing the ability to hit for greater power, and yet you have chosen an area of the swing that is neither his 'primary' or 'secondary' source of power generation. When looking to improve power, look first to the primary and secondary sources of force generation.

Why not analyze all the issues in this kid's swing and recommend working on the greatest limiting factor first?

In any event, I respect your desire to first work on the stance. That wouldn't be my choice, but I respect that it would be your choice.

callyjr

07-03-2008, 02:13 PM

According to you, that would appear so. Your number one concern with this kid is his stance. However the same stance worked for others at the highest level of this game. Again, don't get me wrong, I don't like this kid's stance, but it is not his biggest limiting factor nor is it an 'absolute'.

Do I agree with this? Not entirely. Why? Because your concern appears to be centered around addressing the ability to hit for greater power, and yet you have chosen an area of the swing that is neither his 'primary' or 'secondary' source of power generation. When looking to improve power, look first to the primary and secondary sources of force generation.

Why not analyze all the issues in this kid's swing and recommend working on the greatest limiting factor first?

In any event, I respect your desire to first work on the stance. That

wouldn't be my choice, but I respect that it would be your choice.

my # 1 concern would be to get the hips open at contact, if he were a student we would go over a lot of things.
and no its its not my choice, its what the guy was asking for, he wants to tap so more power, open him up like 99% of the rest of the pro players and then we can start looking at helping him with other stuff, its not a real difficult task, i am sure none of your HS kids hit like that do they?. thats what kills me about this forum, you people don't read the original post. If you re-read what the poster asked you wouldn't be looking like an ass right now.

I did not go off on a different subject about this or that, I directly answered his question unlike what your doing.

callyjr

07-03-2008, 02:17 PM

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 03:00 PM

my # 1 concern would be to get the hips open at contact, if he were a student we would go over a lot of things.
and no its its not my choice, its what the guy was asking for, he wants to tap so more power, open him up like 99% of the rest of the pro players and then we can start looking at helping him with other stuff, its not a real difficult task, i am sure none of your HS kids hit like that do they?. thats what kills me about this forum, you people don't read the original post. If you re-read what the poster asked you wouldn't be looking like an ass right now.

I did not go off on a different subject about this or that, I directly answered his question unlike what your doing.

I respect that your #1 concern has to do with his stance. I also respect that you feel that his hips are being restricted by this.

IMO, I don't see that as his #1 flaw in terms of limiting his source of force generation. Mark described what I'm concerned with.

We simply don't agree on this kid's #1 source of power limitation.

Doesn't mean I dislike you. I simply am placing more weight elsewhere in the swing.

Mark H

07-03-2008, 09:38 PM

When I read posts like this (especially the bolded portion above) then I wonder if we share more common beliefs. This is pretty much in agreement with my understanding of Chris Yeager's teachings. I will add that, IMO, that this improves the functionality of the front leg in terms of both "blocking" and in terms of "pushing backwards".

I'm still interested in that discussion on separation. I'd also like to hear more details of what you describe as "unloading". It's beginning to sound dangerously close to where Chris Yeager places an emphasis in terms of the primary & secoundary sources of force generation.

I appreciate your interest and look forward to reading Yeager one of these days as I invite you to read Englishbey. What I know about this stuff I learned on setpro and from Englishbey. If we can all, like you have set the example, get past the egos and the semantic differences I think most of us can find a lot of common ground. Perhaps not all of us, but most of us. Again, thanks.

Mark H

07-03-2008, 09:42 PM

are you gonna get all that from siggy site? or are you gonna tell this kid what you would like him to do here? I am all ears. Would love to see what Mark can do.

You know where to find information on what I mean in that post. For the sake of JC, see my post above.

callyjr

07-03-2008, 09:57 PM

You know where to find information on what I mean in that post. For the sake of JC, see my post above.

I saw what yo usaid you would do, but you didn't give him anything in the way of doing it? I would like to see what your ideas are. I won't comment on good or bad, just simply interested in how you would approach this.

Stealth

07-03-2008, 10:01 PM

FiveFrameSwing

07-03-2008, 10:24 PM

If you had a kid who had never hit a baseball in his life would you not make sure he had a good stance to start with? Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports. Getting in a good athletic stance should and would be the first thing an instructor would make sure of. I am not sure why you guys jumped on Cally..........that's the first (not the only) thing I would change.

Here's the thing, I get kids that come to me with an 'open' or 'closed' stance. It's an ingrained habit. Weeks later I find myself still spending time working on correcting this with them. I have to ask myself if this is the best use of my time? Finally, in an attempt to better optimize what I could accomplish, I decided to rate the importance of various aspects of the swing and to address the most important areas first.

I can't overstate the importance of getting the lower body momentum mechanics correct. If you can get a student to "time" their "last push" with their back leg, such that it occurs just as/before the front heel plants, and increase the force of that "final push", then you not only add the primary element of force generation into their swing, but you level out their bat path such that the bat barrel travels behind the ball much longer. You will realize a swing that is forceful, short to contact, and long through the zone. The result is not only harder hit balls, but a larger percentage of solid line-drives.

You can teach and preach arm extension towards the field until the cows come home ... or you teach strong and powerful lower body momentum mechanics and get it for free.

I believe Yeager recently commented that 2/3 of the swing is about the lower body momentum mechanics. I tend to agree.

azmatsfan

07-03-2008, 10:26 PM

The first thing I notice is that he never loads with his hands.

azmatsfan

07-03-2008, 10:34 PM

The second thing I notice is that although his head is relatively still his hips are not. As he strides his hips slide toward the catcher, then during the swing they slide forward as they rotate, causing him to lose his balance and power.

mudvnine

07-03-2008, 10:48 PM

I can't overstate the importance of getting the lower body momentum mechanics correct. If you can get a student to "time" their "last push" with their back leg, such that it occurs just as/before the front heel plants, and increase the force of that "final push", then you not only add the primary element of force generation into their swing, but you level out their bat path such that the bat barrel travels behind the ball much longer. You will realize a swing that is forceful, short to contact, and long through the zone. The result is not only harder hit balls, but a larger percentage of solid line-drives.

Here's a crazy idea, could FiveFrame AND cally both be right?!

I agree with cally that this hitter ends up closed at contact and that opening his stance may be a way of correcting that, but I also agree with FFS that blocking and pushing back on the front leg is the source of power generation.

What needs to be remembered here is that when this hitter ends up closed at contact, he is limiting his hip potential, reducing power potential also, and all the blocking and pushing back on the front leg will not change that.

To full optimize his power potential (as was the original request) he will need to square his feet (or slightly open) when he plants, so when he does block and push back the hip drive is full activated at contact and through extension.

He can accomplish this by opening his stance as cally recommends or change his stride placement just before he blocks his forward momentum as FiveFrame suggests (or I think he suggests) in order to reach full potential.

Just my thoughts, but I think you are both right on in your analysis. :highfive:

Sammy

07-04-2008, 11:05 AM

JC - Strongly urge you to invest in Englishbey's material. I'm NOT a hitting coach, but just another dad. I started with my son about three years ago using Englishbey's principles. He's only 15, but hit a homer with a WOOD BAT this past Tuesday. Granted he's 6'3" and over 200#, but there's NO WAY he'd hit the ball that far without a decent swing.

Sometimes it's tough wading through the ego battles on here, but I continue to do it for the sake of weeding out the good stuff that really works.