14 and 12 year old swings to review please

[ss1330]

14 year old off tee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYdLnRgtkpo

12 year old off tee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWxZdRzpo5k

12 year old game swing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5x5lKkcIBA

Some insightful comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[StraightGrain11]

I'd say you have two boys with two very good swings. :thumbsup:

[ss1330]

I'd say you have two boys with two very good swings. :thumbsup:

thanks straightgrain...i wasn't sure about their swing. they are both hitting well this season.

the 12 year old seems to hit a fair share off the handle though (to close to the plate maybe??) they still seem to find there way into the shallow outfield for a hit (aluminum bats). but when he does make solid contact the ball really takes off.

the 14 year old goes deep into counts all the time, makes me crazy. i wish he would be a little more aggressive and go after a good pitch a little bit sooner in the count.

[ss1330]

Anyone else with some constructive comments if any are needed? Thanks

[jbooth]

thanks straightgrain...i wasn't sure about their swing. they are both hitting well this season.

the 12 year old seems to hit a fair share off the handle though (to close to the plate maybe??) they still seem to find there way into the shallow outfield for a hit (aluminum bats). but when he does make solid contact the ball really takes off.

the 14 year old goes deep into counts all the time, makes me crazy. i wish he would be a little more aggressive and go after a good pitch a little bit sooner in the count.

They both have good swings. Frequent hitting off the handle can often be caused by taking the hands in a straight line toward the pitcher, rather than moving them to the pull side. Don't extend toward the pitcher, extend toward the shortstop. It's commonly called "keeping the hands inside the ball."

[ss1330]

They both have good swings. Frequent hitting off the handle can often be caused by taking the hands in a straight line toward the pitcher, rather than moving them to the pull side. Don't extend toward the pitcher, extend toward the shortstop. It's commonly called "keeping the hands inside the ball."

Thank you for your remarks jbooth. Is there some kind of verbal cue or drill that you might use to help correct this? Thanks again.

[StraightGrain11]

thanks straightgrain...i wasn't sure about their swing. they are both hitting well this season.

the 12 year old seems to hit a fair share off the handle though (to close to the plate maybe??) they still seem to find there way into the shallow outfield for a hit (aluminum bats). but when he does make solid contact the ball really takes off.

the 14 year old goes deep into counts all the time, makes me crazy. i wish he would be a little more aggressive and go after a good pitch a little bit sooner in the count.

Yes, he maybe too close to the plate. I had this problem with one of my players this year. Good hitter, quick bat, absolutely drives the ball when he connects - but was getting "sawed-off" on pitches down the middle :faint:. So I asked him to show me where he stood. The ball of his foot was on the "inside" chalk line [of the box]. Once I "showed" him how badly he was "on top of the plate", he moved off. I believe he hit a HR the following game. :)

Why do want him to be "more aggressive"? Is he striking out alot? If he's not, then he's doing his job as a hitter!!!
Think of it this way....if YOU are "going crazy" just sitting there in the stands, what do you think is going thru that pitcher's head??? :nod:
As a hitter, if you successfully work the count and you do well with 2 strikes on you - you are a GOOD HITTER.

Make the pitcher work. Make him sweat. Make him throw everything he has to beat you, and then show him it's still not enough. Do not force your son to be "aggressive" at the cost of ruining a "smart hitter".
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :nod:

[ss1330]

Yes, he maybe too close to the plate. I had this problem with one of my players this year. Good hitter, quick bat, absolutely drives the ball when he connects - but was getting "sawed-off" on pitches down the middle :faint:. So I asked him to show me where he stood. The ball of his foot was on the "inside" chalk line [of the box]. Once I "showed" him how badly he was "on top of the plate", he moved off. I believe he hit a HR the following game. :)

Why do want him to be "more aggressive"? Is he striking out alot? If he's not, then he's doing his job as a hitter!!!
Think of it this way....if YOU are "going crazy" just sitting there in the stands, what do you think is going thru that pitcher's head??? :nod:
As a hitter, if you successfully work the count and you do well with 2 strikes on you - you are a GOOD HITTER.

Make the pitcher work. Make him sweat. Make him throw everything he has to beat you, and then show him it's still not enough. Do not force your son to be "aggressive" at the cost of ruining a "smart hitter".
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :nod:

Thanks a lot SG. I'll move my 12 year old off the plate some and try to get him to take his hands towards the SS as jbooth suggested.

You're right about my older boy. He is doing his job. He doesn't strike out often and he does hit well with 2 strikes. As a matter of fact he did it tonight, 3-2 count, runner on 2nd and he took a low and outside pitch to RF down the line to drive in the tying run in the bottom of the 7th. I just need to calm myself down...(parents are almost always the real problem...lol). Thanks again.

[StraightGrain11]

Thanks a lot SG. I'll move my 12 year old off the plate some and try to get him to take his hands towards the SS as jbooth suggested.

You're right about my older boy. He is doing his job. He doesn't strike out often and he does hit well with 2 strikes. As a matter of fact he did it tonight, 3-2 count, runner on 2nd and he took a low and outside pitch to RF down the line to drive in the tying run in the bottom of the 7th. I just need to calm myself down...(parents are almost always the real problem...lol). Thanks again.

There ya go! Take a deep breath....and enjoy the success! :)
Good luck - to all 3 of you. :thumbsup:

[MSandman]

I converted the youtube videos to mp4 format, for frame by frame viewing in QuickTime and grabbed some frames.

14YO mp4 video (http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/ss1330-14.mp4)
http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image1.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image2.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image3.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image4.jpg
http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image5a.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image5b.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image5c.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image6.jpg

[MSandman]

12YO mp4 video (http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/ss1330-12.mp4)
http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image7.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image8.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image9.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image10.jpg
http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image11.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image12.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image13.jpg http://members.cox.net/dsanda/ss1330/Image14.jpg

[Jake Patterson]

Hmmm... I am always careful when using Tees as I feel overuse sometimes creates habits that are usually not developed during live pitching. While I advocate loading the hitter may have over-rotated enough to place him in a position where he would have difficulty hitting a pitched ball. Yellow lines are the angles I see and the white his effective sight path...
45459

[ss1330]

Hmmm... I am always careful when using Tees as I feel overuse sometimes creates habits that are usually not developed during live pitching. While I advocate loading the hitter may have over-rotated enough to place him in a position where he would have difficulty hitting a pitched ball. Yellow lines are the angles I see and the white his effective sight path...
45459


Thanks for the video work Sandman.

Jake, loading/rotating less would be in order? Does over rotating/loading make a batter late to the ball or does it effect the swing path primarily? Thanks for the analysis Jake.

[LClifton]

Does over rotating/loading make a batter late to the ball or does it effect the swing path primarily?
You bet, it can make them late, but,
Usually, I see the opposite effect though.
Here's why;
1. Body winds up---over winds
2. Brain sends signal to body
("wow we have a long ways to go to get into a position to hit, better get started")
3. As a result they are generally very early.

But as someone here mentioned, hitters do not usually "wind up" (turn the shoulders to where the sternum is pointed toward the catcher) as much when they are facing live pitching.

However, if they are using the "winding" (improper loading) to create some pop off the tee and then they don't wind up (no loading) when facing live pitching then they resort to something else to derive power,,,generally the over use of the arms.

[Jake Patterson]

Thanks for the video work Sandman.

Jake, loading/rotating less would be in order? Does over rotating/loading make a batter late to the ball or does it effect the swing path primarily? Thanks for the analysis Jake.Let's put aside the swing issues when considering over rotating when loading.

Put yourself in the physical position of the batters above - to include their heads- and then close your front eye and see how much of the mound and pitcher you think you would see. You need both eyes for depth perception.

[Jake Patterson]

45470

Green line is the plane of his shoulders
White is the range of view for his BACK eye
Yellow is what he needs to hit the ball

Rotating the shoulders back that far is going to cause problems when he hits live pitching.

Make sense?

[MSandman]

As usual when evaluating tee swings, it's somewhat a futile exercise. I highly suspect that neither of these hitters counter-rotates the shoulders to this degree in live pitching. However, I would still expect some of the other issues to be present. But at least we could focus discussion on what's relevant w/ some live clips.

My 2 cents.

[Jake Patterson]

As usual when evaluating tee swings, it's somewhat a futile exercise. I highly suspect that neither of these hitters counter-rotates the shoulders to this degree in live pitching. My 2 cents. The problem is most do and then have to recreate portions of the swing when they move from tee stations to live pitching. Either way they have to make some sort of adjustment.

[LClifton]

As usual when evaluating tee swings, it's somewhat a futile exercise. I highly suspect that neither of these hitters counter-rotates the shoulders to this degree in live pitching.
So true Mike.

My point is basically this:
If the hitter doesn't load properly during tee work then he likely isn't going to know how to load during any drill with a moving ball.
Seems like things go from an improper "load" (tee work) to basically a "no load" during live arm, front toss work.

They will feel like they can't hit with any power off the tee when you have them loading more properly,,,but IMO, it is imperative to reduce the excessive movement during tee work...
....to include keeping the weight more inside the rear foot. That one element makes it more difficult to "over rotate" back,,,during tee work.

All that to say, I too would like to see clips of them hitting a moving ball.

They both seem to have the capability to move very well.

[tom.guerry]

clif-

I prefer exaggerated range of motion to feel the sequence right.

tee is good for weight shift and synching upper/lower body.

I like this ripken approach with high stride

http://youtube.com/watch?v=G7K6DUcL2L8

or the karaoke walkup drill, paying attention to synching the arm action with the leg action/minnie minoso emulation.

The thing that prevents "excessive counterrotation" and triggers the preferred "scap loading" pattern is the back arm action sequence of internal rotation synched with front knee turning in, then external rotation synched with front leg turning out to lead hip opening.

scap action is slaved to arm action, but sometimes you have to focus on shoulder tilt as part of early load, then keep from dropping the back shoulder or untilting prematurely.

[StraightGrain11]

I would say let's not be making any corrections based on what someone looks like "hitting" off of a tee; let's make them off of "live" hitting.

The 14 yr old is "handsy" on the tee - but I am willing to bet he is not when hitting "live". He "overloads" off the tee - but I am also willing to bet he does not do this, either, when hitting live.

If the hitter doesn't load properly during tee work then he likely isn't going to know how to load during any drill with a moving ball.

Sometimes drills are used to "over do" things to help you "feel" them. It is very hard for the body to make major changes that result in minute adjustments if we only "tweak" them a little bit - because the hitter will feel almost NO DIFFERENCE and he will end up wondering why you had him do "nothing" different. When things are going at "full speed", a couple millimeters feels like a foot; but when you "slow down", and do "drill work", it takes a couple inches to get that same feeling as those millimeters [at full-speed].
If you are referring to the fact that he is "over loading" with the tee, it won't matter when he hits live. Why? Because at some point, his body will figure out that loading that much takes far too long, and he will naturally make an adjustment. And since it sounds like he is hitting well, I bet he's already figured this out. :nod:

I think we don't give enough credit to are own body's. We are talking about these two kids as if they are ROBOTS who need to be "programmed" to hit a ball. Our body's are very unique. And from all the differences I have ever seen hitters exhibit from hitting off of a tee as when compared to hitting live, these two have no problems.

As far as this goes...
Put yourself in the physical position of the batters above - to include their heads- and then close your front eye and see how much of the mound and pitcher you think you would see. You need both eyes for depth perception.
I slightly addressed this in another thread, and will do so here as well...
Hitting off of tee is not hitting a thrown ball. The ball is on the tee - so that's where the focus is. If you want to replicate "live head movements" when hitting off of a tee...that's a little bit counter-productive - because the "point" of the tee is to remove the moving object. :nod:

Also, consider this...
When you track a thrown ball, your eyes are focusing on it the whole time (that you can theoretically track it). So your brain is taking in all the information, and basically getting "directions"/coordinates where to direct/aim the swing.
When you hit off of a tee, if you don't look down until "the very last second" - sure, you are replicating "live" head movements, BUT you are NOT replicating the same amount of information! If you wait that long, you are swinging "blind" because your body has no idea where to direct the swing until the very last second - this is not normal.
You look down "early" to give your brain/body the necessary information it needs to conduct/direct the swing properly.

If you're worried about seeing the ball "too early" (or "looking down too soon") when hitting off of a tee, why not just simply close your eyes, swing, and open them right before you make contact? You'd be accomplishing the same thing. :shrug:

[LClifton]

If the hitter doesn't load properly during tee work then he likely isn't going to know how to load during any drill with a moving ball.
Sometimes drills are used to "over do" things to help you "feel" them.
Yes sir,
I am aware of that and use that very concept. Counter rotation of the shoulders to THIS degree and allowing the weight out over the back foot are not positions I would want "OVER DONE".

It is very hard for the body to make major changes that result in minute adjustments if we only "tweak" them a little bit - because the hitter will feel almost NO DIFFERENCE and he will end up wondering why you had him do "nothing" different.
Straight, you'll get no argument from me on this.
If you can gve me one logical reason to permit this much backward rotation of the shoulders EVEN while "just hitting" OFF THE TEE. I will listen.

Every year I go to Spring Training (Royals and Rangers)..I observe the guys doing tee work. I was amazed the first year I sat and wathced a guy,,,and how quick it was. To me, there are things that can be overdone,,,to get a feel, ----the shoulders in this position is not one of them.
Because there will be no sense / feel for quickness.
You need to get back to center before you can swing. And if you don't practice the quickness it won't suddenly appear when you move to live arm.

If you are referring to the fact that he is "over loading" with the tee, it won't matter when he hits live.
Yes I am and yes it will matter.

If they load improperly off the tee then he won't know how to load properly when they face live pitching.
He may only "counter rotate" less, but still not be 'loaded'...:dismay:
Why? Because at some point, his body will figure out that loading that much takes far too long, and he will naturally make an adjustment. And since it sounds like he is hitting well, I bet he's already figured this out.
I agree with the power of the mind being able to figure things out.
What I see are things that you are suggesting are O.K. to "over do",,,like the counter rotation of the shoulders. This combined with the front leg pushing back,,, shoves the weight too far out over the back foot to really sense / or work on--- the quickness that will be necessary against live pitching.

There was not a post from ss1330 that indicated they were purposely overdoing something in order to work on / or feel something,,,,so I based my posts on his response to Jake.
loading/rotating less would be in order? Does over rotating/loading make a batter late to the ball or does it effect the swing path primarily?

[StraightGrain11]

I agree with the power of the mind being able to figure things out.
What I see are things that you are suggesting are O.K. to "over do",,,like the counter rotation of the shoulders. This combined with the front leg pushing back,,, shoves the weight too far out over the back foot to really sense / or work on--- the quickness that will be necessary against live pitching.
See where you are coming from...I think I may have "come off" wrong...
What I am "getting at", is that we often do things differently hitting off of a tee [than we do when we hit live], that don't translate over when we do hit live. We often take a slightly shorter stride when hitting off of a tee (I know I do, atleast, because I am not trying to match the speed of an oncoming pitch with all my power, my focus is on perfect contact of an imobile object). We may also often appear to "over load" because our head is rotated "inward" more, as we are focusing on the ball (which is now "next to/in front of" us, instead of "coming at us from a distance"). If his head was rotated so that it were "facing the mound" more, I believe his body/loading pattern would end up looking more like this
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/cubsphill2/clementbp.gif
So I do not see it as "over loading", I see it more that the angle at which he is loading has changed with respect to his focus and the direction/aim of the swing. (I'm willing to bet if his back foot was turned [inward] more "square" to the "pitcher" - as opposed to the tee...:))

But I agree, bad habits can be learned/developed on a tee. If his loading pattern does look this extreme, then yes, it should probably be corrected. But I do not believe it would look that extreme if he were hitting live (so IMO, I do not feel there is a need to address it :)).

There was not a post from ss1330 that indicated they were purposely overdoing something in order to work on / or feel something,,,,so I based my posts on his response to Jake.
Understand. :)

[tom.guerry]

grain-

I would say you want to exaggerrate things that will make the swing pattern easier to repeat.

this means avoiding things emphasized by clif like letig the weight get to the outside of the back foot or turning the sternum back by spine twist.

you can do these things and succeed, BUT they are extra elements that have to be timed right and they make the timing much more difficult to get right when added in to the motion.

on the other hand, there are universal absolutes demonstarted in virtually ALL good MLB power swings that should NOT be removed and if they need to be added, THAT would be a good time for exaggeration. these include:

inward turn of whole body which could turn the sternum back without forcong spine twist/separation


negative move/weight to back foot (prefer inside of back foot)

internal rotation of back arm as it lifts - THIS is the KEY "how to" cock the hands without forcing the excessive early spine twist/excessive counterrotation. this is the action that triggers right kind of 'scap load'.

scaps will not load right unless slaved to right arm action. if you focus on scaps, you are VERY unlikely to get arm action right which prevents an MLB pattern.

if you focus on good arm action, you many times get the right scap action and agood start to the pattern, BUT it still helps to know how the scap loads and to exaggerate this feel as well.

exagerrate range of motion and feel of how weight carry shifts, but retain the sequence/pattern to get carry over.

[LClifton]

I think I may have "come off" wrong...
Not at all.

We agree that things change between tee and live arm. No dispute.
Heck I've seen some "on deck" swings that make you want to....nevermind. :rofl: