What is the right call here?

[BaseballNut31]

Teams to be referred to as HV and E

In a championship game in Babe Ruth (Cal Ripkin 8 y/o division) baseball, the speed of the pitching machine was lowered from the regulation speed by HV (playing on their fields) prior to the start of the game and unfortunately, unchecked by the officials. As it turns out, this was the slower speed which HV used during their regular season games although they knew it was below the required speed. Even though it was below the required speed, it was what their kids were used to and so they snuck it in for the championship game. During the top of the first inning with HV batting first, they were hitting the ball like crazy and had actually scored 6 runs before the coach from E realized that the ball was slow. They immediately asked to check the speed, were allowed to, and when it was discovered that HV was using a too slow pitch asked to re-start the game. The officials refused, so the district commissioner for BRB (Babe Ruth Baseball) was called. He too stated that to re-start a game in the top of the first inning was not an option. The only options he allowed were these:

1) continue the game and immediately change the machine to regulation speed - runs scored by HV using slower speed still stand.

2) continue the game and leave the machine at it's current speed until the top of the second inning, where it would then be changed to regulation speed, giving E the opportunity to bat using slower speed (even though they, unlike HV, were not accustomed to slower speed and therefore would be swinging too early and possibly even hinder their performance for the duration of the game by having speed changes)

Keep in mind that simply allowing team HV to keep runs scored using slower speed is, in a sense, mentally defeating to team E. Not only does it potentially change the line-up as many hitters would have likely been out at regulation speed, but an unfair advantage to one team like that would be hard for an adult to overcome, not to mention a team of 8 year olds. These teams were very evenly matched, a six run lead gained by either team would be nearly impossible to overcome by the other, and if that lead was gained unfairly, it's even harder to overcome it, for kids especially.

I am curious as to how coaches here would have handled this situation from either side of the fence, team HV or E.

[Baseball gLove]

Set it to the higher speed. The kids used to the higher speed will drive the ball further.

[ipitch]

You are somehow affiliated with team E, right? With option 2, you say that E would be at a disadvantage since they're not used to the slow speed (for just the FIRST inning), but what about HV being at a disadvantage for the next FIVE innings?!?

[BaseballNut31]

Actually, I was just given additional information on this subject last night. Both HV and E played at a slower speed during regular season games, not just HV. The reason being that during regular season, 7 and 8 year olds play together on the same team and the slower speed is used for the 7 year olds. However, the HV team used the first 3 regular season games as their all-star tryouts and had their all-star team picked at the end of game 3. Plenty of time to practice them at the higher speed, right? Team E did not choose their all-star team until the regular season was over. Team E had about a week to practice at the increased speed required during their playoffs. Team HV had nearly the entire regular season. However, as far as I can see, this doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot anyway in this particular scenario. This was the CHAMPIONSHIP game, both teams had played several playoff games at the higher speed to get that far. Apparently, team E made the adjustment to the higher speed during playoffs easier than team HV. From what I can tell, team HV had the advantage here since they had their all-star team chosen so early in the season.

As for me being affiliated with either team, I'm not. My sons team just happened to be playing at these fields as well, for NB in a different division. His team ended up playing 2 games with a gap in between and so we watched this one during the break as I knew parents from both the HV and E teams.

Personally, I fail to see where HV would be at a disadvantage at all during the last 5 innings as they knew what the regulation speed was prior to any playoffs games, had ample opportunity to practice at (more than E actually) that speed and had already played at least 4 possibly 5 playoff games at the higher speed. Also, even if they were at a disadvantage, who's fault would that be? E's? No, so why should E be at a disadvantage during the game at all to benefit HV?

In my personal opinion, team HV coaches cheated. They knew the regulation speed, had played at it several times, and yet, afraid of losing the championship (as I said, both teams were very evenly matched in ability), they intentionally lowered the speed to give an advantage to their team. I don't blame the coach for team E for not allowing his batters to use the slower speed once they had made the adjustment to the higher speed. I do blame the coach for HV for not having the confidence in his team to play fairly. Perhaps he should have worked harder helping them make the adjustment, it isn't like he didn't have plenty of time to do so. JMHO

[TrentThomas]

Waaaaaaahhh!

Play ball...

Players play.

Coaches who whine about something like this are just giving the players an excuse to fail.


:homeplate:

[BaseballNut31]

Who are the whining coaches? Am I to believe that you know about this situation personally and witnessed whining from a coach? Please elaborate, you have certainly piqued my curiosity.

The issue as far as I am concerned, is that I was hoping to watch a really good game from those 2 teams, but what I ended up seeing was one team of 8 year old kids get their hopes of winning a championship destroyed by a couple of grown men who apparently have no honor to speak of. Both teams of kids worked hard to get to where they were at, and neither should have been given an advantage over the other, especially by their own coaches. When both teams are good, you don't just overcome a 6 run lead gained by one of them, unfairly. It is nearly impossible. Sure, you can "just play ball" but when the championship trophies go to the team who cheated (well, their coaches did anyway) it is like a kick in the gut to the other kids.

Perhaps I am wrong in feeling that team E was cheated out of a fair shot at the championship, that's why I was asking for opinions. For me, I think that the kids should have been given the opportunity to fight it out fairly on that field Saturday. I think BRB dropped the ball when they refused to restart the game with the pitching machine in the regulated position. They basically said it was OK that the coaches from HV knowingly cheated. It was the top of the first inning, why not restart it? It isn't like the kids had been playing for a hour already.

I don't think it would have bothered me as much if it were just another regular game, but it wasn't. It was a Championship game.

[DerekD]

If it was that much different, Team E's manager should've realized it before 6 runs were put up. Team E's manager should've checked this. Not sure about Babe Ruth, but in Little League, these teams cannot be assembled before mid-June so to say that they've practiced all season long as this team is just an assumption really unless it can be proven. I'm not sure what that penalty would have been.

What was the final score?

[Marc]

Looks to me like HV would be in violation of the governing body's rule about picking and practicing all-stars too early. I'm pretty sure there's a rule in just about all baseball leagues about when it's okay for teams to start practicing. If they broke that rule and was picking and practicing all-stars after game 3...then, they would be ruled ineligible for tournament play.

[DerekD]

Looks to me like HV would be in violation of the governing body's rule about picking and practicing all-stars too early. I'm pretty sure there's a rule in just about all baseball leagues about when it's okay for teams to start practicing. If they broke that rule and was picking and practicing all-stars after game 3...then, they would be ruled ineligible for tournament play.

Unless you have a couple of spare token players attending these practices and calling them clinics. I'm not sure how you'd prove that but I agree with you.

[BaseballNut31]

There should be a rule but I'm not sure there is. Unless there is a tournament rule book in addition to the regular rule book, there isn't. The Official Rules state that in order for a player to be eligible for tournament play, he needs only to be on the season roster and participate in at least half of the teams regularly scheduled games, and in the event that the regularly scheduled games are an odd number, the benefit goes to the player. (13 games scheduled, player needs only to play in 6 to participate in tournament)
One might expect that his would mean you need to wait to choose the team, but it doesn't specifically state this and they can probably get away with choosing the team early as long as the players end up getting in enough games. I can find nothing as to when and how they choose teams.
As far as proving and/or assuming they do this, it's neither. I can't prove it, but I was told this by parents from HV. I knew one of the parents whose son was on the team, he told me that they lost their best player because of how they choose the team. Apparently, their star short stop during regular season play was unable to make it to his third season game and therefore was not chosen for all-stars because he missed the last day of "try-outs."

[DerekD]

There should be a rule but I'm not sure there is. Unless there is a tournament rule book in addition to the regular rule book, there isn't. The Official Rules state that in order for a player to be eligible for tournament play, he needs only to be on the season roster and participate in at least half of the teams regularly scheduled games, and in the event that the regularly scheduled games are an odd number, the benefit goes to the player. (13 games scheduled, player needs only to play in 6 to participate in tournament)
One might expect that his would mean you need to wait to choose the team, but it doesn't specifically state this and they can probably get away with choosing the team early as long as the players end up getting in enough games. I can find nothing as to when and how they choose teams.
As far as proving and/or assuming they do this, it's neither. I can't prove it, but I was told this by parents from HV. I knew one of the parents whose son was on the team, he told me that they lost their best player because of how they choose the team. Apparently, their star short stop during regular season play was unable to make it to his third season game and therefore was not chosen for all-stars because he missed the last day of "try-outs."

June 15 for Little League

[Marc]

May 15th for Dizzy Dean.

[umpire]

As a Little League umpire this is what I would have done. restarted the game with the right speed. I have seen all kind of coaches and they try every thing to win, the only way to play the game is my the rules. period!!!!!!!!!!!!:homeplate:

[umpire]

As a Little League umpire. this is what I would have done. Started the game over at the right speed. I have seen coaches try about everything . The only way to play the game is by the rules. period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:waving

[cfas2]

you were using a pitching machine? in the game?

[Shappy]

you were using a pitching machine? in the game?
Silly question after reading the thread. Babe Ruth sanctioned leagues always use a pitching machine for the 7/8 year olds - all the way to the World Series for the 8 year olds.




Yes, most Babe Ruth leagues choose their all star teams very early in the season, there is no rule against it. Some don't, but most do. In my league they don't because the all star coach picks his team and we don't have an all star coach until the end of the season. As someone else said, during regular season, 7 and 8 year olds play together, then they split up during post season play. At the end of the regular season, the coach of 7/8 year olds who won the most games gets to choose which team (7 or 8) he/she will coach during the post season, and the second place coach takes the other one. THEN they choose their players. I suppose as far as Babe Ruth goes, my league is kind of behind the times by waiting so long to choose. I know of only 1 other local league (in Babe Ruth) who still does it this way.

For the OP's original question, I think the game should have been restarted immediately upon discovery of the error. It is a shame that this type of thing cannot be protested as per Babe Ruth. Championship games mean a lot to these kids, and it appears as if they were treated unfairly. That hurts Babe Ruth as a whole, in my opinion, for allowing it to happen. It seems to me that Babe Ruth had the opportunity to fix what the umpires refused to fix, yet they didn't. That is part of the reason more and more leagues are getting away from Babe Ruth and switching to LL and Dixie, just to name a couple. Just this year alone, we lost 2 competitors in this area because of problems in Babe Ruth. One went to LL, the other to Dixie.

Also, someone stated that Team E should have checked this earlier. They can't. They can only request that the machine be checked prior to their team batting, not the opponent. There must be sufficient cause for them to request the umpires check it on the other teams at bat. A few hits and runs doesn't constitute "sufficient." 5 or 6 runs would. And even after team E made the request, odds are that the umpires pitched to at least one more kid, "just to see" if there might be a problem worth looking in to. It is easy to understand how they were allowed 6 runs before it was looked into, especially since they were on HV's field, using their equipment and most likely, their umpires.

[TG Coach]

Who are the whining coaches? Am I to believe that you know about this situation personally and witnessed whining from a coach? Please elaborate, you have certainly piqued my curiosity.

The issue as far as I am concerned, is that I was hoping to watch a really good game from those 2 teams, but what I ended up seeing was one team of 8 year old kids get their hopes of winning a championship destroyed by a couple of grown men who apparently have no honor to speak of. Both teams of kids worked hard to get to where they were at, and neither should have been given an advantage over the other, especially by their own coaches. When both teams are good, you don't just overcome a 6 run lead gained by one of them, unfairly. It is nearly impossible. Sure, you can "just play ball" but when the championship trophies go to the team who cheated (well, their coaches did anyway) it is like a kick in the gut to the other kids.

Perhaps I am wrong in feeling that team E was cheated out of a fair shot at the championship, that's why I was asking for opinions. For me, I think that the kids should have been given the opportunity to fight it out fairly on that field Saturday. I think BRB dropped the ball when they refused to restart the game with the pitching machine in the regulated position. They basically said it was OK that the coaches from HV knowingly cheated. It was the top of the first inning, why not restart it? It isn't like the kids had been playing for a hour already.

I don't think it would have bothered me as much if it were just another regular game, but it wasn't. It was a Championship game.

You're talking about 7/8 machine pitch all-stars, which is an oxymoron in itself. I thought 7/8 all-stars was so important we went on vacation.

[TG Coach]

Looks to me like HV would be in violation of the governing body's rule about picking and practicing all-stars too early. I'm pretty sure there's a rule in just about all baseball leagues about when it's okay for teams to start practicing. If they broke that rule and was picking and practicing all-stars after game 3...then, they would be ruled ineligible for tournament play.

When my son played Ripken there wasn't a set date to select all-stars.

[BaseballNut31]

You're talking about 7/8 machine pitch all-stars, which is an oxymoron in itself. I thought 7/8 all-stars was so important we went on vacation.



Oxymoron's:

Deafening Silence
Living Dead
Larger Half
Silent Scream
Unbiased Opinion
and even the word Oxymoron is itself an oxymoron.

What is NOT an oxymoron:

8 year old all-star machine pitch baseball team.


Calling such an expression an oxymoron is sometimes done in order to disparage its use, by drawing attention to a perceived inherent contradiction and thus claiming it to be nonsensical. Often this kind of argument is used in domains of political or ideological dispute, or in order to criticize a perceived nonsensical use of technical terms by lay people who fail to understand their true meanings. (this paragraph is from Wikipedia = public domain, not copyright protected) :p

[mudvnine]

Oxymoron's:

Deafening Silence
Living Dead
Larger Half
Silent Scream
Unbiased Opinion
and even the word Oxymoron is itself an oxymoron.

What is NOT an oxymoron:

8 year old all-star machine pitch baseball team.


Calling such an expression an oxymoron is sometimes done in order to disparage its use, by drawing attention to a perceived inherent contradiction and thus claiming it to be nonsensical. Often this kind of argument is used in domains of political or ideological dispute, or in order to criticize a perceived nonsensical use of technical terms by lay people who fail to understand their true meanings. (this paragraph is from Wikipedia = public domain, not copyright protected) :p

Not to put words in TG's mouth, but why are 7/8 y/o's not learning all aspects of the game, including pitching? If they are truely "All-Stars" at 7/8 they should be able to throw well enough to pitch, we see it all the time in PONY sanctioned baseball's Pinto division.

And please don't say it is to save their arms, at that age they all throw the same and then you might as well not have a catcher who is throwing the ball back the same as the pitcher would be "pitching". :confused:

[thefeckcampaign]

though i commend your desire for fairness i find most of the time the adults take the kids game farther than they should or perhaps even more than the kids even want them to.