Derek Jeter This Year

[DoubleX]

There hasn't been much focusing on how mediocre Jeter has been. He is the king of the free pass here, and it is deserved to a large extent. Still, he, Cano, and Cabrera, are really killing the lineup on a consistent basis. If his name wasn't Derek Jeter, there would be no way he'd still be batting 2nd. You just can't have someone with a .700 OPS batting 2nd. He should be dropped until he can bring things around. I think he will come around, he has a lot of pride, and he's come back from worst depths (2004 I believe).

However, at 34, perhaps we should start thinking about decline. I had this discussion on another board, and someone said 34 really isn't that old nowadays. Which is true, but middle IFers, even several of the best of them in recent years, seemed to hit a wall by their mids 30s. Here are some examples:

Cal Ripken: Ripken was as durable as there was continued to have good power through his 30s, but he really wasn't the same hitter after 30 and moved to 3B at 35. At age 30 he had a career high 162 OPS+, after that, with the exception of a flukish 143 in part time duty at age 38, he would only twice more get over 100, topping out at 107, and had 7 seasons below 100.

Robin Yount: This might not technically count because Young moved to CF at 29, but he was a similar hitter to Jeter, and like Jeter had put up very impressive hit totals by his early 30s and seemed like a good shot to zoom past 3000 (he did get over 3100, but I think reasonable projections in his early 30s would have put him higher). Yount's last good season was at 33, then he fell off a cliff. He was still a decent player, but he was out of the game at 37.

Alan Trammell: Trammell had a similar skillset to Jeter and someone I feel should be in the Hall. His last good season was at 35, then he completely fell off a cliff, was done as a fulltime player thereafter, and done altogether by 38.

Barry Larkin: Had an injury plagued career, but his last good year was at 36, he managed to hang around to 40, those was plagued by injuries wasn't the same player when healthy.

Roberto Alomar: I said middle IFers, not just SS. Alomar was a very similar hitter to Jeter, and seemed destined in his early 30s to put up very high hit totals, like Jeter now. Alomar's last good season was at 33, then he completely fell off the cliff at 34, and was done altogether by 36.

Craig Biggio: Biggio also had a similar offensive skillset to Jeter. He hung around as a decent player for several years, but his last good season was at 33, and he really wasn't the same hitter thereafter.

Ryne Sandberg: Similar to Ripken in that he retained his power, but he just wasn't the same hitter after age 32, retired initially at 35, came back for a couple of mediocre years, and was done altogether by 37.

I think Craig Biggio might be the model here. Beloved franchise player, whose skills diminished in his mid 30s, but was able to hang around for several more seasons as a decent player, and whose team is going to stick with (even if it might not be in the best interests). That last part makes me wonder how the team will deal with Jeter going forward. Will the team be able to make the tough decision when it's time.

[TonyStarks]

I have only good news about Derek Jeter at this piont.

Carmen Angelini has been MUCH better since his season @ Charleston started.
Power is lacking right now, but that will come.

PS: If Jeter was in CF his lack of production might have still gotten him a pass, since we're all privy to what Melky is currently doing. I still think Melky could improve but he's just lost right now. The plate discipline he showed previously is gone. I saw him K yesterday at a pitch chin high and couldn't believe it.

[KCGHOST]

Jeter's last real good season was 2006, though 2007 could hardly be described as a weak one. You could be looking at what the next several years may look like, but I wouldn't count him out yet.

[YankeeDJW]

There hasn't been much focusing on how mediocre Jeter has been. He is the king of the free pass here, and it is deserved to a large extent. Still, he, Cano, and Cabrera, are really killing the lineup on a consistent basis. If his name wasn't Derek Jeter, there would be no way he'd still be batting 2nd. You just can't have someone with a .700 OPS batting 2nd. He should be dropped until he can bring things around. I think he will come around, he has a lot of pride, and he's come back from worst depths (2004 I believe).

Comparing him to Cano or Cabrara is an overstatment. As is saying that he is killing the lineup on a consistent basis. Yes, he hasn't been tearing the cover off the ball lately, but I think he is in somewhat of a hitting funk right now. Happens to every batter. He was batting over .300 before he got hit in the hand (not sure what his OPS was a that point, but I'm sure it was considerably higher). I would give him a day or two off to rest and keep him where he is.

And I also disagree with your assertion that Jeter has gotten a free pass. This season in particular, anything from his leadership ability to his fielding to his off-the-field activity to, now, his hitting have been called into question more than at any other point in his career. I've seen numerous posts by you, in particular, on these points. The reason they haven't got much focus, in my opinion, is becasue they aren't that big of an issue. Like "they" say, look at the back of his baseball card and you'll likely see his '08 stats.

Just my $0.02. :twocents:

[DoubleX]

Comparing him to Cano or Cabrara is an overstatment. As is saying that he is killing the lineup on a consistent basis. Yes, he hasn't been tearing the cover off the ball lately, but I think he is in somewhat of a hitting funk right now. Happens to every batter. He was batting over .300 before he got hit in the hand (not sure what his OPS was a that point, but I'm sure it was considerably higher). I would give him a day or two off to rest and keep him where he is.

And I also disagree with your assertion that Jeter has gotten a free pass. This season in particular, anything from his leadership ability to his fielding to his off-the-field activity to, now, his hitting have been called into question more than at any other point in his career. I've seen numerous posts by you, in particular, on these points. The reason they haven't got much focus, in my opinion, is becasue they aren't that big of an issue. Like "they" say, look at the back of his baseball card and you'll likely see his '08 stats.

The hitting on the hand thing was several weeks ago now and he came back and played the next day (perhaps to his detriment). He's also been hit on the hand or wrist a number of times in his career and never struggled like this afterwards. Also, even though his BA was up at the time, he was still not getting on base and having good ABs in general, and he was showing little power. His high OPS this year was .778 on May 20th, but compare that to his .846 career average. His OBP on that date was .351, down from his. 386 career average, and his slugging was .426, down from a .460 career average. So even at his best this year, Jeter was still performing noticeably below his career norms. Looking at the list of impressive middle IFers in my initial post and how their careers progressed at Jeter's age, I'm not convinced that Jeter isn't reaching his decline phase. Those are all Hall of Fame players to me, as is Jeter, and if decline came to them around this age, why not Jeter?

I and a few others around here have been calling Jeter's play this year into question, but in general, when he's struggling, no one really focuses on it. The bottom line, IMO, is that Jeter has a .700 OPS and that is definitely not what you want from your no. 2 hitter. If his name wasn't Derek Jeter, I don't think he'd still be batting no. 2, just as Abreu was dropped in the lineup last year when he was struggling.

[YankeeDJW]

You certainly bring up some good points, but I just think you're over-analyzing. He's human and in a slump, just like Mo was in a bit of a slump a week or so ago. Of course it's possible he is beginning to decline, but I'm a little dubious that it is beginning this early.

That's why I say Girardi should rest him for a couple of days; let his body recover a bit from the wear and tear of the season and give him time to figure out what he needs to adjust. Dropping him in the lineup does little to acommadate that.

[Imgran]

Much as I might hate Jeter, consigning him to the scrap heap at this point is way premature. I'd love to say he's gone away but I know better -- like a door-to-door salesman, the moment you think he's gone he turns back up at the worst possible time. He's got a role in where the Yankees are in the standings right now though, to be sure.

[Edgartohof]

Your views and opinions on Jeter, in my opinion, are total crap.

.... not really...

Jeter has an OPS+ of 92 so far this season.

His batting line this season is: .273/.329/.379. So tell me, what part of that is impressive???? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that's what!

[DoubleX]

You certainly bring up some good points, but I just think you're over-analyzing. He's human and in a slump, just like Mo was in a bit of a slump a week or so ago. Of course it's possible he is beginning to decline, but I'm a little dubious that it is beginning this early.

That's why I say Girardi should rest him for a couple of days; let his body recover a bit from the wear and tear of the season and give him time to figure out what he needs to adjust. Dropping him in the lineup does little to acommadate that.

You could very well be right, and I were a betting man, I'd actually bet on your theory as opposed to the one I'm putting out there. I'm just bringing up some observations for the sake of conversation. Though I have to admit, looking at how those other impressive middle IFers declined around Jeter's age, and did so fairly suddenly, got me thinking a lot.

I do think though that it would be ok to move Jeter down in the lineup temporarily while he gets his swing back, just like the team did with Abreu last year and Giambi earlier this year. If he's hurting the team right now, he's hurting the team. Having a .700 OPS in the 2 hole, extinguishing momentum, just isn't smart baseball. The problem is, and this is what I was getting at, is that he's Derek Jeter - seemingly untouchable. Like I said, I think if it was anyone else in this situation, they would be dropped in the order, but not Jeter. It's just unthinkable for most to tamper with Jeter and acknowledge that he has a shortcoming, whether it's dropping him in the order or moving him defensively. Things change though, and adjustments have to be made for the present. Jeter's seemingly untouchable status has got me a little worried about what the team will do when it is clear that a change is needed. Will the team do what it should do and move Jeter, or will it just try to live with Jeter where he is, even if hurting the team, because he's Derek Jeter? Also, will Jeter have the sense to know when it might be time to make some changes?

I'm not saying that time is here, but given how he's played this year, his age, and the experience of those other great players, it's got me thinking about Jeter's status going forward.

[TonyStarks]

DX, I know we're just talking here but the odds of Jeter being moved into say the 7 hole is enough for some people to call the paddy wagon and drop whoever says this off at Bellevue Hospital.

Your right on the money about Jeter killing the Yanks in the No. 2 hole. IMO the lineup should change for a few days. My suggestion:


LF - Damon
RF - Abreu
DH - Matsui
3B - Rodriguez
1B - Giambi
C - Posada
SS - Jeter
2B - Cano
CF - Gardner --(Melky should get 3 days off)

[DoubleX]

Your right on the money about Jeter killing the Yanks in the No. 2 hole. IMO the lineup should change for a few days. My suggestion:


LF - Damon
RF - Abreu
DH - Matsui
3B - Rodriguez
1B - Giambi
C - Posada
SS - Jeter
2B - Cano
CF - Gardner --(Melky should get 3 days off)

I'd have a similar lineup though I'd like to see 3-4-5 go A-Rod-Giambi-Matsui. I'd also like to see Cano sit for a few days while Kevin Long and Joe Girardi get it into his head that he needs a better approach. I'd love to see Gardner get a shot, but the team seems in no rush to call him up. Melky does have games where he seems to be making improvements, but then falls back into bad habits, though that's more than can be said for Cano right now.

[TonyStarks]

I'd have a similar lineup though I'd like to see 3-4-5 go A-Rod-Giambi-Matsui. I'd also like to see Cano sit for a few days while Kevin Long and Joe Girardi get it into his head that he needs a better approach. I'd love to see Gardner get a shot, but the team seems in no rush to call him up. Melky does have games where he seems to be making improvements, but then falls back into bad habits, though that's more than can be said for Cano right now.

With Cano I know, we all know, that he's so much better and I'm sure he knows this. It's almost like he's trying to gain 50 points in his AVG with one AB. He's trying to do too much when he's up there. He's pressing. He's been a pretty good 2nd half player...so lets see if he ends the season on a tear.

[sec39fan]

i think people should leave jeter alone. look at the game on sat? when he went deep. Jeter is going to be fine. As a Yankee fan, I am starting to worry about Cano. The weather is heating up so he's got a couple of weeks to do some work but if he isn't hitting by say July 20th. The Yanks should look to move him or send him down to send a message. His mechanics are so screwed up right now. If he takes a page out of Jeter's book, and hits the ball the other way he'll be ok.

[White Knight]

i think people should leave jeter alone. look at the game on sat? when he went deep. Jeter is going to be fine. As a Yankee fan, I am starting to worry about Cano. The weather is heating up so he's got a couple of weeks to do some work but if he isn't hitting by say July 20th. The Yanks should look to move him or send him down to send a message. His mechanics are so screwed up right now. If he takes a page out of Jeter's book, and hits the ball the other way he'll be ok.
I agree 100%, and also don't like Melky playing CF at all. I'm not asking for a Mantle or a Joe D, but I really miss Bernie a lot.

[Urbanshocker13]

t's funny how Jeter is the top vote getter this year for SS in the allstar game, If his name wasn't Jeter he wouldn't get many of those votes. Ironically allot of Yankees deserve at least consideration to the allstar game. Like Matsui, Damon and even Giambi!

[EXCELSIOR]

Yesterday's peacock is tomorrow's feather-duster.

[White Knight]

t's funny how Jeter is the top vote getter this year for SS in the allstar game, If his name wasn't Jeter he wouldn't get many of those votes. Ironically allot of Yankees deserve at least consideration to the allstar game. Like Matsui, Damon and even Giambi!

You forgot Moose. :)

[Urbanshocker13]

You forgot Moose. :)
I didn't add pitchers because the fans don't vote for them, but moose, MO, and until he got hurt Wang should be considered for the ASG.

[Seattle1]

Do you realize that this might be the first year in Jeter's career that he hasn't played in the post-season?

Will that be devastating to him?

[sec39fan]

Do you realize that this might be the first year in Jeter's career that he hasn't played in the post-season?

Will that be devastating to him?

its a long season, just remember that lol.... back to jeter. he's got a 5 or 6 game hit streak even though he's slumping, so thats a sign to me that he's gonna bounce out of it. jeter deserves to be the starting shortstop because its in yankee stadium this year. the only other shortstop that deserves consideration is probably texas' michael young. think about this texas can have 4 all stars (young, kinsler, hamilton, bradley) and still cant beat the angels.

[SD Bomber Fan]

I didn't add pitchers because the fans don't vote for them, but moose, MO, and until he got hurt Wang should be considered for the ASG.

I realize that this is quite a ways off track from the topic, but I don't see Moose in the All Star game. Not to diminish what he's done this year, but I always get the feeling that it's a house of cards, and he's one bad pitch away from it collapsing. He's pitched against some bad teams, and the lineup has probably bailed him out a few times since he's been on this streak. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm not on the Moose bandwagon.

[Evangelion]

its a long season, just remember that lol.... back to jeter. he's got a 5 or 6 game hit streak even though he's slumping, so thats a sign to me that he's gonna bounce out of it. jeter deserves to be the starting shortstop because its in yankee stadium this year. the only other shortstop that deserves consideration is probably texas' michael young. think about this texas can have 4 all stars (young, kinsler, hamilton, bradley) and still cant beat the angels.
Michael Young having a better season and desires to start at SS, but the entire issue is irrelevant to discuss since Derek Jeter will be voted in as the starting SS at the AS game. I don't mind either way since it's not like Young having a great season offensively or/and defensively. You could likely chalk Young's and Jeter's name on the AS team since both should be there with Jeter starting, if the voting continues to favor Jeter.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadwolf View Post
Your views and opinions on Jeter, in my opinion, are total crap.

The post that was deleted says it all. Jeter is the epitome of the #2 hitter. Can hit to all fields in every way possible. Can move runners. Isn't afraid to bunt. Big time clutch hitter. Has done everything over many seasons. Is the unquestioned leader of his team.

The only thing the post you quoted says is the poster cannot follow site rules in regards to language and respect of the other posters here. Simple enough.

[Westlake]

Oh no.

NO.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[joek7]

I quoted from a post by another poster. All the poster stated was he did not agree with the opinion of your post. In all honesty, and maybe I am being naive, but why was the post objectionable? Except for the use of the word "c--p'. I have seen worse in other posts.

[Cap Pride18]

The One stat I don't know OPS...

Clarify what it means please.

as of now he is batting .286/7?

That's still good and I think it will still go up.

[YankeeDJW]

The One stat I don't know OPS...

Clarify what it means please.

as of now he is batting .286/7?

That's still good and I think it will still go up.


OPS = onbase percentage (OBP) plus slugging percentage (SLG). Basically, it's how often you get on base plus how many bases you get per AB. So even though Jeter is hitting in the .280's, which is respectable, his SLG is low enough to show that he's not walking much and not getting very many extra-base hits.

[DoubleX]

The One stat I don't know OPS...

Clarify what it means please.

as of now he is batting .286/7?

That's still good and I think it will still go up.

This is probably more than you were looking for, but in addition to what YankeeDJW said, OPS is a good way to measure a player's offensive production because it combines the power statistic (slugging) with how often the player gets on base (on base percentage). You can take it a step further and use OPS+ which reflects how a player's OPS compares to the average OPS in the league, adjusted for park (as parks will differ in how they help or hurt offense). An OPS+ of 100 is league average. Derek Jeter's OPS+ right now is 99, which is essentially league average, but when you factor in that he's a SS, a league average OPS+ is pretty decent. Jeter's career OPS+ is 121, which is quite good for a career SS.

[joek7]

The One stat I don't know OPS...

Clarify what it means please.

as of now he is batting .286/7?

That's still good and I think it will still go up.

Individual stats in essence are meanigless . Particularly the convoluted created ones. The basic stats tell you if a player has power, hits for average, etc. The best stat is wins. Does a player help his team win. Over a players career, just look to see how many playoffs, pennants, and WS he has helped lead his team to, and you will have the best players in the game.

[DoubleX]

I've said this before, but tonight is a good example of why I believe one of the major problems with the offense right now is Jeter batting 2nd. He just kills momentum time and time again. Case in point - he just hit into a double play to end the 6th with two on and 1 out. Earlier in the game, he hit what was a tailor-made DP ball, but Kinsler did him a favor and muffed it. Had Kinsler made that play, Giambi would not have been able to hit his grand slam. So that's 4 runs right there that Jeter's hitting should have cost the team. So extrapolate that over the season now - imagine how many other possible big hits would have come this year had Jeter batting 2nd, not killed so many rallies, thereby taking the bat out of A-Rod and Giambi's hands?

[Westlake]

Individual stats in essence are meanigless . Particularly the convoluted created ones. The basic stats tell you if a player has power, hits for average, etc. The best stat is wins. Does a player help his team win. Over a players career, just look to see how many playoffs, pennants, and WS he has helped lead his team to, and you will have the best players in the game.

CapPride, ignore the above.

[joek7]

Cap Pride 18..... please take note, the stat side says ignore, I say just look at the YANKEE/Texas three game series. The YANKEES scored more runs, out hit and out pitched Texas but lost two of the three games. Again proving just how meaningless stats can be.. It is all in the WINS and the winning where the greatest of the great excel.,

[White Knight]

Congrats to Jeter for coming up with a simply outstanding defensive play last night to end the inning and save a run. :dance

[DoubleX]

It was a nice play. Just from watching, I actually think Jeter's range has improved this year, particularly up the middle. Just this week alone he's reached a number of balls that I don't think he would have reached in years past.

[sec39fan]

It was a nice play. Just from watching, I actually think Jeter's range has improved this year, particularly up the middle. Just this week alone he's reached a number of balls that I don't think he would have reached in years past.

I love Derek Jeter and i agree with you about his range improving slightly up the middle but he should have never made that throw against Boston the other night. He's starting to turn his season around which is below normal Jeterian standards and he'll get his hits and average back up to .300 where it belongs.

[mikesty]

It was a nice play. Just from watching, I actually think Jeter's range has improved this year, particularly up the middle. Just this week alone he's reached a number of balls that I don't think he would have reached in years past.

Yeah, it's almost like he's subtly responding to all the flak about how horrible his glove-side defense it is. Of course this play wasn't to his glove side, but I've seen him make good ones up the middle where I say "What the hell is everyone talking about - bad glove defense?" I guess I have to look more for base hits up the middle where he's not even in the picture.

[DisabledMess]

Jeter will get 3,000 hits but I don't see him breaking Pete Rose's record of over 4,000 hits.

[DoubleX]

Yeah, it's almost like he's subtly responding to all the flak about how horrible his glove-side defense it is. Of course this play wasn't to his glove side, but I've seen him make good ones up the middle where I say "What the hell is everyone talking about - bad glove defense?" I guess I have to look more for base hits up the middle where he's not even in the picture.

I've never been big on defensive metrics, I tend to go by what I see. Jeter's range looks improved to me, even though the defensive metrics show him to be a very mediocre defender this year.


Jeter will get 3,000 hits but I don't see him breaking Pete Rose's record of over 4,000 hits.

I don't think he will either. He'll inevitable slow and decline, just like the many great middle IFers I mentioned in the earlier post. The decline might already be beginning. Rose remained very productive, in terms of racking up hits, through age 41. It's doubtful Jeter will stay that productive. Jeter also most certainly won't be in a position to keep himself in the lineup regularly, despite severely diminished skills, as a player manager, like Rose was.

Realistically, I think Jeter has a shot at the mid 3000s, perhaps even challenging Stan Musial for 4th all time (3630) which would be pretty incredible in its own right, especially for a middle IFer. He also could give the career runs record a run.

[VIBaseball]

I seem to recall reading that Jeter had worked a good deal this offseason on improving his agility and his first step, so he could well be a shade better this year.

As pretty to look at as the jump-throw in the hole is, it reminds me of how a head-first slide into first base is not really advantageous. I think the jump-throw actually loses a bit of time and zip on the throw versus a "traditional" plant and throw.

[YankeeDJW]

As pretty to look at as the jump-throw in the hole is, it reminds me of how a head-first slide into first base is not really advantageous. I think the jump-throw actually loses a bit of time and zip on the throw versus a "traditional" plant and throw.

Not to derail this thread or anything, but I think there are certain situations where the jump-throw is necessary when the fielder can't spare the extra second or two to plant himself. I don't think there is any way Jeter makes the play last night if he stopped to set himself first. It's more of a do-or-die type play, whereas diving into first base is just plain silly (though I think it is actually accidental in a lot of cases. The runner just plain runs out of gas sprinting up the line and his body "outruns" his legs and feet).


Now, back on topic... Jeter seems to have started getting his act together in time for the second half. He's been key in the two big wins over the D-rays and has been having some much better plate appearences lately.

[mtortolero]

Congrats to Jeter for coming up with a simply outstanding defensive play last night to end the inning and save a run. :dance

Off Course he had a little help of Dioner Navarro, who is almost so fast as the turtle of the story, but still was a great Texaco´s play for ESPN.

[Bolts-Baseball]

Realistically, I think Jeter has a shot at the mid 3000s, perhaps even challenging Stan Musial for 4th all time (3630) which would be pretty incredible in its own right, especially for a middle IFer. He also could give the career runs record a run.Rose played 24 seasons... at the end of 14 seasons Rose had 2603 hits... Jeter (in the middle of his 14th season) has 2456 hits... with half of the 14th season left...

I don't think he'll pass Rose either, because he's probably not gonna play another 10 years, but who knows...? Rose's last six seasons consisted of seasonal hit totals of 140, 172, 121, 107, 107, and 52...

Regardless, Jeter right now, is probably in the top-5 to top-10 of Yankee greats of all-time...

[DoubleX]

I don't think he'll pass Rose either, because he's probably not gonna play another 10 years, but who knows...? Rose's last six seasons consisted of seasonal hit totals of 140, 172, 121, 107, 107, and 52...

Rose was also ages 40-45 those years. I just don't see Jeter hanging around until that age, let alone collecting 100+ his annually (and as many as 172 at 41). Also, that 140 came during the strike year of '81, when Rose was 40 and hat .325 with a 119 OPS+ in 107 games. Had there been no strike and Rose stayed healthy, he would have a good chance at 200 hits.

[TonyStarks]

Rose played 24 seasons... at the end of 14 seasons Rose had 2603 hits... Jeter (in the middle of his 14th season) has 2456 hits... with half of the 14th season left...

I don't think he'll pass Rose either, because he's probably not gonna play another 10 years, but who knows...? Rose's last six seasons consisted of seasonal hit totals of 140, 172, 121, 107, 107, and 52...

Regardless, Jeter right now, is probably in the top-5 to top-10 of Yankee greats of all-time...

Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
Yogi Berra
Mariano Rivera
Tony Lazzeri
Whitey Ford
Bill Dickey
Bernie Williams
Earle Combs


I just named 11....maybe Top 15.

[Bolts-Baseball]

Bernie Williams
Earle Combs

I just named 11....maybe Top 15.No disrespect to these guys, but I believe both of these great Yankees would tell you (if they could) that Derek Jeter is better...

[White Knight]

Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
Yogi Berra
Mariano Rivera
Tony Lazzeri
Whitey Ford
Bill Dickey
Bernie Williams
Earle Combs


I just named 11....maybe Top 15.

How can you put Jeter below Bernie? I was a huge fan of his, but come on. He's not making it to the Hall, and Jeter will.

[hellborn]

Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
Yogi Berra
Mariano Rivera
Tony Lazzeri
Whitey Ford
Bill Dickey
Bernie Williams
Earle Combs


I just named 11....maybe Top 15.

I think that Jeter is better than Combs, Lazzeri, and probably Dickey...he should end up being better than Bernie. Kind of hard for me to compare him to Ford and Rivera.
I hope that you'd agree that Jeter beats out Tony Kubek, Bobby Richardson, Mark Koenig, Jumpin Joe Dugan, and Tom Tresh?
:cap:

[White Knight]

I think that Jeter is better than Combs, Lazzeri, and probably Dickey...he should end up being better than Bernie. Kind of hard for me to compare him to Ford and Rivera.
I hope that you'd agree that Jeter beats out Tony Kubek, Bobby Richardson, Mark Koenig, Jumpin Joe Dugan, and Tom Tresh?
:cap:

You forgot Don Mattingly. :) Off topic, but without the back problems, Donnie no doubt would have cracked the top 5 Yankees.

[TonyStarks]

How can you put Jeter below Bernie? I was a huge fan of his, but come on. He's not making it to the Hall, and Jeter will.

I'm sorry...I should have clarified.....

This list was not in any specific order.




You forgot Don Mattingly. :) Off topic, but without the back problems, Donnie no doubt would have cracked the top 5 Yankees.

Personally, I didn't forget Mattingly. I loved the guy...but his back robbed him of many good seasons and I just can't see him making a TOP 10-15 list based on what could have been.

[TonyStarks]

I think that Jeter is better than Combs, Lazzeri, and probably Dickey...he should end up being better than Bernie. Kind of hard for me to compare him to Ford and Rivera.
I hope that you'd agree that Jeter beats out Tony Kubek, Bobby Richardson, Mark Koenig, Jumpin Joe Dugan, and Tom Tresh?
:cap:

He sure does....but I can't see him beating out Lazzeri, Dickey, or Combs.

Hell, I'm even gonna go here......even JoeK7 and BBW would have to agree with me! LOL

[White Knight]

Personally, I didn't forget Mattingly. I loved the guy...but his back robbed him of many good seasons and I just can't see him making a TOP 10-15 list based on what could have been.

I agree, I was just speculating he would have cracked the top 5 if his back didn't fail. 1984-1986 is better than anything Bernie or even Jeter have done (with the exception of Jeter's 1999).

[hellborn]

You forgot Don Mattingly. :) Off topic, but without the back problems, Donnie no doubt would have cracked the top 5 Yankees.

Top 5 is a tall order on the Yanks, but it's possible.
You could say the exact same thing about Charlie Keller...he was also felled by back problems, more dramatically than Don. Charlie's numbers don't jump out quite as much because his BAs are mostly lower, but his OBPs were great and the guy had power.

Dickey, Combs, and Lazzeri were very fine ballplayers, but none of them even reached 2000 hits, while Jeter is near 2500 already. I give Dickey a break on that because he's a catcher, but think that his big years that really catch your eye only happened because he learned to yank fly balls right down the the line at Yankee. That's a valuable skill and I don't discount it, but doesn't smack of "greatness" to me. By all accounts, he was always a good defensive catcher...I don't know, if Jeter's career ended right now, I might put him below Dickey.

[bigbadwolf]

Jeter will probably end his career as one of the top five Yankees of all time. Heck, he's been the best player in MLB over the past decade+.

[DoubleX]

I don't know if Jeter can crack the Top 5 in Yankees history, as it's a really tough group to break into. Among my personal all time rankings, I have a Yankee as the greatest player ever (Ruth), three Yankees in the top 10 all time (add Mantle and Gehrig), four Yankees in the top 15 (add DiMaggio) and five in the top 25 (add Berra). So it's pretty select company.

[bigbadwolf]

You may not be far from the truth. If Jeter is there, it as the fourth thru eight. And I think at least 4 or 5 more Yankees could easily be in the top 25 all time.

[JayJohnstone]

Jeter will probably end his career as one of the top five Yankees of all time. Heck, he's been the best player in MLB over the past decade+.Jeter has been very good, but he has not been the best player in MLB for the past decade.

[JayJohnstone]

You may not be far from the truth. If Jeter is there, it as the fourth thru eight. And I think at least 4 or 5 more Yankees could easily be in the top 25 all time.Are you for real ?

[DoubleX]

Are you for real ?

Jay, since you're pretty new here, I'll just save you the hassle and tell you that it's best to just ignore BBW and Joek7 and let their comment pass (it's tough at times, but it needs to be done).

[TonyStarks]

In my Top 5 I have: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle and problably Berra.

How in the world can Jeter enter into Top 5 Terrority? Maybe by winning 4-5 WS in the next 5-6 years and be maintaining his season average numbers throughout that run.

Then maybe we could talke about Jeter in the Top 5 Greatest Yankee list.

[White Knight]

I don't know if Jeter can crack the Top 5 in Yankees history, as it's a really tough group to break into. Among my personal all time rankings, I have a Yankee as the greatest player ever (Ruth), three Yankees in the top 10 all time (add Mantle and Gehrig), four Yankees in the top 15 (add DiMaggio) and five in the top 25 (add Berra). So it's pretty select company.

Well, after all is said and done, let's assume he retires with 3,600 hits. I have the NY Yankee top five in the following order:

1. Ruth
2. Gehrig
3. and 4. DiMaggio and Mantle (too close to call)
5. Jeter

[White Knight]

Jay, since you're pretty new here, I'll just save you the hassle and tell you that it's best to just ignore BBW and Joek7 and let their comment pass (it's tough at times, but it needs to be done).

And not me? Thanks. :)

[bigbadwolf]

Jeter has been very good, but he has not been the best player in MLB for the past decade.

If and when you can show me a player who has helped lead his team to more playoffs, pennants, and WS rings over Jeters time period, I will be happy to acknowledge that player.

[bigbadwolf]

Jay, since you're pretty new here, I'll just save you the hassle and tell you that it's best to just ignore BBW and Joek7 and let their comment pass (it's tough at times, but it needs to be done).

On the other hand, you may find it much wiser to hear all sides and then be willing to accept that winning is what makes players great. To each, his own.

[White Knight]

Top 5 is a tall order on the Yanks, but it's possible.
You could say the exact same thing about Charlie Keller...he was also felled by back problems, more dramatically than Don. Charlie's numbers don't jump out quite as much because his BAs are mostly lower, but his OBPs were great and the guy had power.

Dickey, Combs, and Lazzeri were very fine ballplayers, but none of them even reached 2000 hits, while Jeter is near 2500 already. I give Dickey a break on that because he's a catcher, but think that his big years that really catch your eye only happened because he learned to yank fly balls right down the the line at Yankee. That's a valuable skill and I don't discount it, but doesn't smack of "greatness" to me. By all accounts, he was always a good defensive catcher...I don't know, if Jeter's career ended right now, I might put him below Dickey.

In the mid 80's, I used to think Donnie Baseball would be the greatest 1st baseman since Lou Gehrig. Forgive me, I was 12. :) But seriously, he was awesome during those years. Best player in the game. Had he kept up his '84-'86 years, there's a possibility he may have cracked the Yankee top 3 or 4. Definatly top 5.

[TonyStarks]

If and when you can show me a player who has helped lead his team to more playoffs, pennants, and WS rings over Jeters time period, I will be happy to acknowledge that player.

Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera

[DoubleX]

Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera

Don't forget Andy Pettitte. He's actually played in more WS than Jeter thanks to the Astros. The funny thing about Jeter is that since guys like O'Neill, Martinez, and Williams have left, Jeter hasn't won anything. So maybe he's the problem? The team wins with all these other guys + Jeter, but the team can't win without the other guys + Jeter, so maybe the winning had more to do with the other guys? You know what, I'm going to pronounce this as a conclusive fact. The facts show that the team hasn't won without those other guys and just Jeter, so it's Jeter's fault. You can't deny it right? It's fact, the team hasn't won with just Jeter around.

Of course though, the best player in any sport over the last 10-12 years, hands down, is Robert Horry. I don't think anyone has won more titles than he has, and it's all because of him.

[bigbadwolf]

And how many of those fine above mentioned gentleman have helped lead their team to the playoffs every single year of their career, six pennants and 4 WS rings. Seems like some of them didn't without Jeter being around.

[DoubleX]

And how many of those fine above mentioned gentleman have helped lead their team to the playoffs every single year of their career, six pennants and 4 WS rings. Seems like some of them didn't without Jeter being around.

Nope. It's a fact, the team hasn't won since it's just been Jeter and he's been captain, so it's Jeter fault they haven't won and the winning before had more to do with the other guys who have since left, proven by the fact they haven't won since they left. Jeter's titles in the 90s haven't done diddly for the team in the last 7 years. You can look it up, it's fact.

[TonyStarks]

Don't forget Andy Pettitte. He's actually played in more WS than Jeter thanks to the Astros. The funny thing about Jeter is that since guys like O'Neill, Martinez, and Williams have left, Jeter hasn't won anything. So maybe he's the problem? The team wins with all these other guys + Jeter, but the team can't win without the other guys + Jeter, so maybe the winning had more to do with the other guys? You know what, I'm going to pronounce this as a conclusive fact. The facts show that the team hasn't won without those other guys and just Jeter, so it's Jeter's fault. You can't deny it right? It's fact, the team hasn't won with just Jeter around.

Of course though, the best player in any sport over the last 10-12 years, hands down, is Robert Horry. I don't think anyone has won more titles than he has, and it's all because of him.

Boo-Ya on the Robert Horry line! Damnnn...
So using the Win Method, Michael Jordan couldn't carry Robert Horry's jock!
Robert Horry is the King of NBA Basketball! A sure HOFer!



And how many of those fine above mentioned gentleman have helped lead their team to the playoffs every single year of their career, six pennants and 4 WS rings. Seems like some of them didn't without Jeter being around.

Umm...The Yanks did win the very 1st AL Wildcard back in 1995. I don't recall Derek Jeter even being on that playoff roster. And back in 1994 the Yanks were crusing to an AL East title and Derek Jeter also wasn't on that team.


Nope. It's a fact, the team hasn't won since it's just been Jeter and he's been captain, so it's Jeter fault they haven't won and the winning before had more to do with the other guys who have since left. Jeter's titles in the 90s haven't done diddly for the team in the last 7 years. You can look it up, it's fact.

DX...the correct thing to say is: The Yankees haven't won much of anything since Derek Jeter became the Yankees Captain....something which he did not deserve.

So many facts....which one will he choose??

[bigbadwolf]

Nope. It's a fact, the team hasn't won since it's just been Jeter and he's been captain, so it's Jeter fault they haven't won and the winning before had more to do with the other guys who have since left, proven by the fact they haven't won since they left. Jeter's titles in the 90s haven't done diddly for the team in the last 7 years. You can look it up, it's fact.

You never answered the question, but that is ok with me. I take the posts from where they come and assign a value to them.

[DoubleX]

You never answered the question, but that is ok with me. I take the posts from where they come and assign a value to them.

No let me repeat a simple fact for you:

1996-2000: Jeter+Martinez+O'Neill+Williams = 4 WS Titles

2001-2007: Jeter+Williams (until 2005) = 0 WS Titles

The proof is in the facts. See these facts, just like the ones you like to present. It's Jeter's fault. Don't try to explain and ask me to answer your questions, because that's not what we do here. We present superficial facts, that make little sense on the surface, and take them at face value with absolutely no explanation about the details that make sense of the facts. In fact, we plain hate details and logic here. So just look at the simple facts. You can't argue that it's not Jeter's fault.

And again, Jeter can't hold a candle to Robert Horry, who may be one of the greatest athletes of all time period! The guy has won 7 titles! Jeter can't compare to that.

[bigbadwolf]

No let me repeat a simple fact for you:

1996-2000: Jeter+Martinez+O'Neill+Williams = 4 WS Titles

2001-2007: Jeter+Williams (until 2005) = 0 WS Titles

The proof is in the facts. See these facts, just like the ones you like to present. It's Jeter's fault. Don't try to explain and ask me to answer your questions, because that's not what we do here. We present superficial facts, that make little sense on the surface, and take them at face value with absolutely no explanation about the details that make sense of the facts. In fact, we plain hate details and logic here. So just look at the simple facts. You can't argue that it's not Jeter's fault.

And again, Jeter can't hold a candle to Robert Horry, who may be one of the greatest athletes of all time period! The guy has won 7 titles! Jeter can't compare to that.

Your inability to see the big picture belies your problem. No player has ever nor will ever lead his team to WS victories every year of his career. I have, and will always admit that it takes ALL players on a team to help lead their team to the most success it can achieve. Each year there is usually some difference in the makeup of each team. Some changes are minor, some are major. All contribute to how a team will perform to the degree of their value and use. A starting position player will affect a team more than the utility infielder who plays sparingly. But all have their degree of value. In the end, it truly becomes reasonably simple. the players who help their team to the most playoffs, the most pennants, and the most WS rings over their career, are the best players in the game. Because of the expansion of baseball, be it more teams, more divisions, more playoffs, etc., it is best to rate players over their respective eras. Therefore over his era, Jeter is most likely the best position player in MLB. Unless you prefer to take the losers as being the best. Which logically would be your choice, garnered from your past posts.

[DoubleX]

Your inability to see the big picture belies your problem. No player has ever nor will ever lead his team to WS victories every year of his career. I have, and will always admit that it takes ALL players on a team to help lead their team to the most success it can achieve. Each year there is usually some difference in the makeup of each team. Some changes are minor, some are major. All contribute to how a team will perform to the degree of their value and use. A starting position player will affect a team more than the utility infielder who plays sparingly. But all have their degree of value. In the end, it truly becomes reasonably simple. the players who help their team to the most playoffs, the most pennants, and the most WS rings over their career, are the best players in the game. Because of the expansion of baseball, be it more teams, more divisions, more playoffs, etc., it is best to rate players over their respective eras. Therefore over his era, Jeter is most likely the best position player in MLB. Unless you prefer to take the losers as being the best. Which logically would be your choice, garnered from your past posts.

You're accusing me of not seeing the big picture? You who ignores every detail and actual fact out there, but instead chooses to manipulate information in an overly simplistic fashion in order to make some overly simplistic and superficial point? Maybe you should try reading your own post to yourself the next time you want to post some over simplified facts about A-Rod's effects on teams, because just as you're saying here, there is more than meets the eye, the truth is not just explained by one player. Again, it's like you read the first chapter of a book and ignored the rest. Do you not see the hypocrisy here? With A-Rod, it's one man's effect, with Jeter, it's not one man's effect. How do you reconcile that very apparent hypocrisy in your postings? When I say the Yankees haven't won with just Jeter in 7 years, which is true on the surface, is very much the same thing as you saying "Look, A-Rod's teams got worse, so it's his fault." Both ignore the details and belie reality.

Also, I don't think "belies" was the word you were looking for there.

[JayJohnstone]

Jay, since you're pretty new here, I'll just save you the hassle and tell you that it's best to just ignore BBW and Joek7 and let their comment pass (it's tough at times, but it needs to be done).Thank you. I am starting to see your point.

[DoubleX]

We've had some Derek Jeter discussion take place in threads about other topics, so I thought it would be good to revive this thread. There's some interesting conversation in this thread, but I strongly warn people to not be tempted to respond to old comments from the dynamic duo (if you don't know who I'm talking about, you can probably figure it out by going back through old posts).

Anywho, the most recent conversation was between Tony Starks and Dominic in the Mike Cameron thread. So fellas, here is probably a good place to continue that.

[TonyStarks]

I don't disagree that Jeter is selfish or a poor team captain - I suggested that he make the move to CF and allow the Yankees to sign Furcal or another shortstop a couple of months back... I can dig up the post if you want.

To me, though, that doesn't really factor into his playing ability or on the field accomplishments.


I hear you, but I don't like his play at Short. Moving on, when does the transition from Shortstop begin for Jeter? People need to come to terms with that and some have suggested 1B as a move for Jeter, but I dunno. I can't really see Jeter playing 1B. I always thought he would make a damn good Centerfielder but at this stage in the game it just might might be too late. Maybe a move to 2B could have been done, if Cano wasn't around.

Which reminds me, Carmen didn't have a good year. I seriously hope next season is much much better.

[Domenic]

I am amazed that they have not begun to discuss transitioning Jeter yet. Robin Yount was as revered in Milwaukee as Jeter is in NY, and Yount moved to CF when he was 29 years old. With his speed and arm (and great skill in fielding pop-ups) I can see Jeter playing CF well for at least three or four years. If Jackson is worthwhile as a major leaguer, I can see Jeter moving over to LF in a couple of years, as well. I have never been one to worry about power production from the corners, so that would work for me.

If the Yankees care about defense, Jack Wilson is available on the cheap this year, and is a free agent next season, I believe. Other than that, I am not sure about any other shortstop options. Rodriguez is probably best suited for 3B for the rest of his career, and Cano's decline at 2B last season makes me doubt that he could move over.

[Evangelion]

I am amazed that they have not begun to discuss transitioning Jeter yet. Robin Yount was as revered in Milwaukee as Jeter is in NY, and Yount moved to CF when he was 29 years old. With his speed and arm (and great skill in fielding pop-ups) I can see Jeter playing CF well for at least three or four years. If Jackson is worthwhile as a major leaguer, I can see Jeter moving over to LF in a couple of years, as well. I have never been one to worry about power production from the corners, so that would work for me.

If the Yankees care about defense, Jack Wilson is available on the cheap this year, and is a free agent next season, I believe. Other than that, I am not sure about any other shortstop options. Rodriguez is probably best suited for 3B for the rest of his career, and Cano's decline at 2B last season makes me doubt that he could move over.
Was their the disillusion Yount played good to well at SS? I'm not familiar with his career.

There's a disillusion among MLB that Jeter is a good SS. It seems most people believe it. Since I haven't heard even a mention of moving Jeter from the SS position, despite his shortcomings.

It does seem people believe Jeter can move to CF similar to Yount. The problem is people who believe he's good at SS should take a closer look at his defensive inabilities at the position. The only reason there might be discussion about moving him from SS is his age. Not the fact he's been quite poor and should have been moved to CF, at least an attempt to see how well he can play the position back in 2005, the year the team sign Damon. I believe DoubleX, Tony and others were suggesting that back then.

[Domenic]

Jeter's failings at shortstop are overstated - he is a bit below average, at worst. UZR tends to rate him as such, and I believe that to be one of the better fielding metrics.

Robin Yount was in a similar boat to Jeter, in terms of declining defense... but he also had back problems that inhibited his reaction time and mobility on line drives, so he was a bit easier to 'push.'

[DoubleX]

Yount was a good defensive SS, but I believe he moved to CF due to a shoulder problem.

I have been saying on here for years that Jeter should have moved to CF when A-Rod came over. My guess is that the team never thought to do this or really pressed the issue, so you can't blame Jeter for staying at SS, where he is like a Yankees institution. The team would have been stronger though with Jeter in CF and A-Rod at SS as A-Rod was a vastly better defensive SS and I believe Jeter would have made a good CFer. I don't know if the move can be made at this point. Jeter probably wouldn't have the range in CF that he would have 4 or 5 years ago, and who knows if A-Rod could make a smooth transition back to SS after 5 seasons of playing at 3B.

As I said earlier in this thread, I am worried that the team will wait too long to move Jeter, though some might say it's already been too long.

[Westlake]

Jeter's failings at shortstop are overstated - he is a bit below average, at worst. UZR tends to rate him as such, and I believe that to be one of the better fielding metrics.


A bit Below average as in he costs his team a few runs as opposed to saving them, or a bit below average compared to every other SS in the majors?

[Domenic]

A bit Below average as in he costs his team a few runs as opposed to saving them, or a bit below average compared to every other SS in the majors?

The former.

[csh19792001]

Happens to every batter. He was batting over .300 before he got hit in the hand (not sure what his OPS was a that point, but I'm sure it was considerably higher). I would give him a day or two off to rest and keep him where he is.

His OPS dropped from .778, which was nearly his season's high, steadily down to under .700 after the 5/20 injury. His average dropped from .312 to below .270 in the ensuing week and a half.

Jeter was injured quite a bit this year, actually. Since he tends to lean over the plate- line drive hitters who like to drive the ball to RF generally do this- he gets hit a ton. I think he also tends to lean into pitches to try to get the pitches painting the inside corner called balls, but who knows. He really has a penchant for getting hit, and from watching him his entire career, it usually seems to come on the hands and wrists. Consider that among all active players he's currently 5th in HBP. He still has a third of his career to go and he's already top 25 all time. The top 10 all time in PA all were hit far fewer times than he's been hit already. Eddie Murray came up 13,000 times and got hit 18 times!!

4/7/2008 Derek Jeter, SS Strained left quadriceps (day-to-day)
5/20/2008 Derek Jeter, SS Left game - Hit by pitch in left hand (day-to-day)
8/13/2008 Derek Jeter, SS Bruised left foot (day-to-day)
9/20/2008 Derek Jeter, SS Left game - bruised left wrist (day-to-day)

So it's true that he played in 150 games, and on paper, looking at BB-ref it appears he was pretty healthy, but I think he was in the lineup not playing even near 100% for many of them.

How much of this is age, and how much is bad luck? It's difficult to say. It's even harder to predict how he'll perform next year and for the next 5-7, if he's lucky enough to get that far.