Was there any rivalry with Baltimore?

[Uncle Charlie]

When the Senators and Orioles were both in the AL from 1954 to 1971, was there any sort of rivalry between the two? Of course, the Senators never contended for a pennant during that period, but I'm just wondering if there was any geographic rivalry between the teams and fans during that period.

[Steve Jeltz]

According to this article I digged up, there wasn't much of a rivalry, but there may be a bias for Baltimore since the story is from a Baltimore newspaper. What I found interesting was that when Edgar Bennett Williams bought the Orioles, many believed he would move the Birds to Washington. :eek:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.os5018feb18,0,3234306.story?coll=bal-sports-baseball

[TallIndian]

Growing up in DC and then the Maryland burbs, I can tell you that Senators fans most hated team was the Orioles. We mocked their players, their managers, their fans, even their announcers (Baltimore TV was easily viewable in DC back in the late 1960s). We also hated the Colts with a passion.

It wasn't easy. I still remember Frank Robinsons two grand slams. Or Dave McNally shutting out the Nats at every turn.

1969 ws an interesting year as Baltimore had teams lose in the baseball (Orioles to the Mets), football (Colts to the Jets) and basketball (Bullets to the Knicks) championship series!

When the Nats moved to Texas, it wasn't easy for the Orioles to convert many Senators fans.

[welch]

Tremendous rivalry, as Tall Indian says.

No matter how far the Nats were behind first place, every time they beat the Orioles was celebration time.

About 1967, the New Senators knocked the Orioles out of the pennant race on about the last weekend. Far away at college, we Senators fans whooped and danced.

Ignore whatever the Baltimore Sun has to say.

The Orioles ownership was foolish to block a team from The District, and plain crazy to block an AL team.

Baltimore has no rivalry...I live in NYC, and I know that Yankee fans hardly know that the Orioles exist.

If the Nats were in the AL, as they were from 1901, there would be two races: one for the pennant and one between the Nats and the Orioles. No mater where the teams might finish in the league standings.

For comparison, the Redskin fans went nuts when George Allen finally built a team that could beat the Colts. Angelos could be selling tickets to the same sort of people. Fool.

[six4three]

For comparison, the Redskin fans went nuts when George Allen finally built a team that could beat the Colts. Angelos could be selling tickets to the same sort of people. Fool.

Yeah, I have to admit that boggles my mind.

Local rivalries are a great way to sell tickets and boost interest. And with the unbalanced schedule, you can generate a whole lotta interest.

[bryanac625]

If there was any rivalry in those days, it was probably one-sided. I don't imagine the Orioles from 1966-71 being too worried about the Senators, who only produced one winning season (1969, thank you, Ted Williams). Was it much like Welch says in post #4, that the Yankees today don't even know the Orioles exist?

I'm also not convinced the Senators of 1954 just opened the door and let another big-league franchise walk in the area, showing the ultimate grace that Peter Angelos (he's an idiot) and the Orioles did not up to 2004. The attached newspaper clipping I found some time ago (not sure what paper this was, however) says The Nats were one of the teams that tried to block the transfer of the Browns to Baltimore (the other two were the Yankees and the Philadelphia Athletics). However, the paper says that some Senators officials "previously... expressed approval of the shift."

From what I've read, the biggest problem for the Senators wasn't the Orioles- it was a lot of bad circumstances and poor management decisions. Griffith Stadium and RFK were not good hitters parks. By 1961, Griffith Stadium only housed 27,550 fans- more than half that of Yankee Stadium and far less than that of 1961 Fenway Park. Initially opposed to night games, Clark Griffith changed his mind when he saw the money he could make, but Judge Landis would not budge on the idea until 1943. Instead of leading the charge on integration, the Senators were the 12th out of 16 teams to sign a black player... really sad when you think about all the great black players the team missed out on. And Pete Quesada was a terrible owner of the early 1960s clubs.

Interesting footnote- the man Quesada beat out for the Expansion Senators franchise was Edward Bennett Williams. We will never know what might have been...

As far as any rivalry today, who knows? The teams are in two different cities (unlike Mets-Yankees or Sox-Cubs); and two different leagues. I choose to support both teams.

[Uncle Charlie]

1969 ws an interesting year as Baltimore had teams lose in the baseball (Orioles to the Mets), football (Colts to the Jets) and basketball (Bullets to the Knicks) championship series!

When the Nats moved to Texas, it wasn't easy for the Orioles to convert many Senators fans.Sorry to nitpick, but the Knicks beat the Bullets in the first round, not the finals.

I'm guessing one reason Washington fans were reluctant to get behind the Orioles was that they thought they'd get a team back soon(like the Padres). They probably never imagined they'd have to wait as long as they did.

[TallIndian]

Thanks for the correction on the Bullets/Knicks!

I agree that back then the veiw was the DC would get a National League team fairly quickly.

That DC would go 30 years without a major league team was unthinkable back then.

[welch]

Consider the teams from 1954 onward, when both were toward the bottom of the AL...Gus Triandos their slugger, Roy Sievers ours.

Consider, as well, that the suburbs had not spread out to merge, that it was a Big Deal when the Baltimore-Washington Parkway was opened.

Washingtonians found that Baltimoreans were always boasting about the way they cleaned their white stone steps. Baltimoreans seem to have been envious of the Nation's Capital.

There was a natural rivalry just between the cities when the Browns arrived in Baltimore...and we kids were taught "Baltimore is a bush-league town".

[westsidegrounds]

The attached newspaper clipping I found some time ago (not sure what paper this was, however) says The Nats were one of the teams that tried to block the transfer of the Browns to Baltimore (the other two were the Yankees and the Philadelphia Athletics). However, the paper says that some Senators officials "previously... expressed approval of the shift."



I think that story is from 1952. Bill Veeck had a deal in place with Baltimore & had been lead to believe the AL would OK the Browns' move, only to find out when it was too late to make other arrangements that the other AL owners had decided to turn down the move, forcing him to stay in St Louis for the 1953 season. This was a specifically anti-Veeck move; the owners hoped to drive Veeck into bankruptcy and out of baseball. Once Veeck sold the team, the AL unanimously approved the move in time for the Orioles to start playing in '54.

[welch]

I always heard that National Bo (aka "National Bohemian Beer"), which sponsored Nats games, threatened to pull their advertising if Clark Griffith did not withdraw his objections to the Browns' move.

Ya gotta look it up, but I remember that the Balitomore Orioles were to be bought by the family that owned National.

That is, Griff was presured into accepting the move.

*

Fact remains, that throughout the '50s, the Nats, the Baltimore Orioles, and the Kansas City Athletics battled for 6th, 7th, and 8th in the AL. Even in the 60s, the Orioles moved out of "Senators class" only after Calvin moved the improved Nats to Minneapolis, and the Orioles got much better in the mid-60s.

Imagine if the Old Senators had stayed! Killebrew and Allison hitting in the "short fence" DC Stadium, Pascual bending a hitter like a pretzel with that curve-ball!