Sudden dropping of the hands

[CoachHenry]

My daughter has been progressing very nicely with her hitting. She has gone from "swinging the bat" to some solid mechanics. I can see how she can build on it going forward. Until last Saturday. Her first time up she dropped her hands really really low and when she swung it looked really ugly. She did that same thing her next two swings to strike out. I was struck dumb. Where did that suddenly come from? Her next two times up where duplicates of that. I was hoping for some anomaly for the first at bat but NOOOOOO.... now she is doing it all the time. It is like someone took her and for HOURS practiced that bad swing because she does it each time. How did this happen? With how she is swinging she has almost no opportunity to hit the ball.

I wish I had video for you but I don't.

During soft-toss and tee work she doesn't do it. Put her in the box and she does it. She gets herself into a nice stance, bat where I like it, etc. When the ball is thrown she drops her hands about a foot (maybe less), throws her hip and completely misses the ball.

Any idea why, other then she is 8 yrs old, a player would suddenly start doing this? Anything other then many many swings on the tee and soft toss that might help? I'm trying to come up with a specific drill that lets HER know she is doing it because she sure doesn't believe me. And I think if I showed her video she would think Dad is mad at her.

[CoachHenry]

Included in the work I am going to do with her tonight is one handed drills with a smaller bat.

[Chris O'Leary]

Any idea why, other then she is 8 yrs old, a player would suddenly start doing this? Anything other then many many swings on the tee and soft toss that might help? I'm trying to come up with a specific drill that lets HER know she is doing it because she sure doesn't believe me. And I think if I showed her video she would think Dad is mad at her.

What cues do you use with her?

Has she been told to swing level? Sometimes that can cause that kind of swing.

[CoachHenry]

What cues do you use with her?

Has she been told to swing level? Sometimes that can cause that kind of swing.

I haven't told her to swing level. We are more PCR based then anything else. As she is able to implement something and is solid in it I add a bit more, then a bit more, etc. Of course something has obviously broken along the way in some brief instant and I'm trying to fix it while the season is underway.

Right now the biggest cue she has needed was "feet, knees, hands back". From that and the hours we have worked together that is all she needs to get in the position we work on. And she's still getting there. I've never had a cue with her to not drop her hands because.... well she's never done it. Another coach on her all-star team was trying to help her and told her to swing at the ball from her load position of that caused her to chop down at the ball. She did just what he told her to do but not what he MEANT for her to do.

If you follow Englishbey, I'm going to have her do Drill #1, which might help with this.

[FiveFrameSwing]

My daughter has been progressing very nicely with her hitting. She has gone from "swinging the bat" to some solid mechanics. I can see how she can build on it going forward. Until last Saturday. Her first time up she dropped her hands really really low and when she swung it looked really ugly. She did that same thing her next two swings to strike out. I was struck dumb. Where did that suddenly come from? Her next two times up where duplicates of that. I was hoping for some anomaly for the first at bat but NOOOOOO.... now she is doing it all the time. It is like someone took her and for HOURS practiced that bad swing because she does it each time. How did this happen? With how she is swinging she has almost no opportunity to hit the ball.

I wish I had video for you but I don't.

During soft-toss and tee work she doesn't do it. Put her in the box and she does it. She gets herself into a nice stance, bat where I like it, etc. When the ball is thrown she drops her hands about a foot (maybe less), throws her hip and completely misses the ball.

Any idea why, other then she is 8 yrs old, a player would suddenly start doing this? Anything other then many many swings on the tee and soft toss that might help? I'm trying to come up with a specific drill that lets HER know she is doing it because she sure doesn't believe me. And I think if I showed her video she would think Dad is mad at her.

Sounds like a good candidate for Mark H's high-tee drill.

[CoachHenry]

Sounds like a good candidate for Mark H's high-tee drill.

Good thought. That makes it almost impossible to drop the hands and not know something is up. Thanks.

[patsox]

This sounds a lot like the uppercutting thread from a few weeks ago. Your description sounds a lot like what my daughter was doing. It took me all winter to break her of it. My description of what I did is in the following post.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1185536&postcount=66

-Steve

[LAball]

I think dropping the hands makes her feel more connected to the hip.

[CoachHenry]

This sounds a lot like the uppercutting thread from a few weeks ago. Your description sounds a lot like what my daughter was doing. It took me all winter to break her of it. My description of what I did is in the following post.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1185536&postcount=66

-Steve

Thanks. I will read that thread very carefully.

[CoachHenry]

Last night before practice I took my daughter over to the fields to work on this. The first thing I did was to not mention it and see if she dropped this bad habit as quick as she picked it up. Nope. So I did some soft-toss and noticed she was holding her hands higher then I like to see. So I had her drop them a bit, then a bit more, then a bit more until she didn't loop her swing. I had her drop them almost to the point that she almost has a flat bat swing now. She was making very good contact but naturally that's not the swing I want going forward. I did a quick round of tee work then pitching from normal distance with CONSTANT reminder to keep her hands in the spot that worked for her. She is 8 yrs old and does her best with what I tell her so I was ok with it. With 15 minutes left before practice I left the flat bat issue in place. During her practice I reminded her a few times during drills but during split-squad scrimmage I let her be he own batter. She got up about six times and each time her hands would creep up but most times she would catch it and correct it pretty good. Excellent, as she is trying to correct herself. I'm happy with that.

In the end I traded one problem for another, more acceptable one. Tomorrow I will go work with her again and see if I can undo the flat bat issue. However I'd rather her tendencies go that way to the looping swing issue where she doesn't have much of a chance to make contact.

[StraightGrain11]

What cues do you use with her?

Has she been told to swing level? Sometimes that can cause that kind of swing.

WRONG, Chris. Telling a player to "swing up" on the ball will get them dropping their hands. Telling a player to "stay on top of the ball" and attack "downward thru it" will usually get their hands back up. Why? Because its kind of hard to work "down" to an object your hands have already "dropped" under...:think:

[CoachHenry]

WRONG, Chris. Telling a player to "swing up" on the ball will get them dropping their hands. Telling a player to "stay on top of the ball" and attack "downward thru it" will usually get their hands back up. Why? Because its kind of hard to work "down" to an object your hands have already "dropped" under...:think:

I can see where a player might develop a drop in the hands because of being told to swing level. Never experienced it myself but to swing level a youngerster might drop their hands to do it. And my daughter, along with others I have worked with, will chop at the ball if told to stay on top of the ball and swing downward thru it. I'm not able to use those cues though I know others do successfully, to include you apparently. It doesn't seem to work with the way I convey things.

[CoachHenry]

One things I did with my daughter that helped is Englishbey's #1 drill. We did that drill in the off-season to help get her swing mechanics going in the right direction but then we got away from it as the season started. Most likely I should make that drill part of her warmup before practices and games.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Any idea why, other then she is 8 yrs old

You answered your own question.

[CoachHenry]

You answered your own question.

Sure! But while that is true, it's always good to find other reasons on top of that. Maybe I told her something that caused her to do that, or she "figured" something out on her own, or it's 100% that she is 8 yrs old. Or a combination of all that.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Sure! But while that is true, it's always good to find other reasons on top of that. Maybe I told her something that caused her to do that, or she "figured" something out on her own, or it's 100% that she is 8 yrs old. Or a combination of all that.

I think that it is most likely a combination. I approach teaching ballplayers the same way I will teach history, by realizing where they are in terms of intellectual development. Read up on Piaget and Vygotsky.

[Chris O'Leary]

I can see where a player might develop a drop in the hands because of being told to swing level. Never experienced it myself but to swing level a youngerster might drop their hands to do it. And my daughter, along with others I have worked with, will chop at the ball if told to stay on top of the ball and swing downward thru it. I'm not able to use those cues though I know others do successfully, to include you apparently. It doesn't seem to work with the way I convey things.

I have seen players do this when they try to square the circle of swinging level to the ground but still adjusting to the height of the pitch in the strike zone.

[CoachHenry]

I think that it is most likely a combination. I approach teaching ballplayers the same way I will teach history, by realizing where they are in terms of intellectual development. Read up on Piaget and Vygotsky.

I agree with the intellectual development. Almost every practice I pull different players aside and talk to them about things that they may be able to handle that the team in general would be confused about. For instance a few of our first basemen are able to understand when and why to follow a runner to second base when the rest of the team would not be able to perform the task. They might end up following the runner all the way home, into the dugout, and home after the game in an attempt to do what they thought I wanted them to do.

I'll look up who the heck Piaget and Vygotsky are and report back to you.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I agree with the intellectual development. Almost every practice I pull different players aside and talk to them about things that they may be able to handle that the team in general would be confused about.

I'll look up who the heck Piaget and Vygotsky are and report back to you.

You are right on. Its all about knowing the players (students) in front of you and knowing who you can challenge to learn more.

[Chris O'Leary]

My daughter has been progressing very nicely with her hitting. She has gone from "swinging the bat" to some solid mechanics. I can see how she can build on it going forward. Until last Saturday. Her first time up she dropped her hands really really low and when she swung it looked really ugly. She did that same thing her next two swings to strike out. I was struck dumb. Where did that suddenly come from? Her next two times up where duplicates of that. I was hoping for some anomaly for the first at bat but NOOOOOO.... now she is doing it all the time. It is like someone took her and for HOURS practiced that bad swing because she does it each time. How did this happen? With how she is swinging she has almost no opportunity to hit the ball.

When you practice, do you practice hitting balls up and down in the strike zone?

If not, she may not know how to adjust up/down in the strike zone and this is the approach she has come up with.

You may need to teach her how to tilt to adjust up/down.

[CoachHenry]

I have seen players do this when they try to square the circle of swinging level to the ground but still adjusting to the height of the pitch in the strike zone.

Ah yes, Jean Piaget, who was an early pioneer in the stages of different developments in a child. It would be good for him to rethink his stages with "kids these days" and see if anything has changed. It would allow him to examine how much society (environment) influences the stages.

[StraightGrain11]

I can see where a player might develop a drop in the hands because of being told to swing level. Never experienced it myself but to swing level a youngerster might drop their hands to do it. And my daughter, along with others I have worked with, will chop at the ball if told to stay on top of the ball and swing downward thru it. I'm not able to use those cues though I know others do successfully, to include you apparently. It doesn't seem to work with the way I convey things.

I've found that most of the time, when an "instructor" tells a player to swing down at the ball, and the player chops at the ball, they haven't taught the concept properly. And then they give up on a very good approach to hitting. The 2nd part of "starting down", is "finishing high" - there's NO WAY you can "chop" at a ball if you "finish high [with your hands]". Stand up and try it if you don't believe me.

[hellborn]

This is pretty basic, but my 8 year old daughter has a bad habit of plastering her back elbow to her side. I don't pick it up right away because I'm in front of her pitching, and her swings suddenly look bizarre and I can't figure out why. Then, I'll catch it and she'll free the elbow up, and she smacks the ball. She always needs reminding, though.

[CoachHenry]

When you practice, do you practice hitting balls up and down in the strike zone?

If not, she may not know how to adjust up/down in the strike zone and this is the approach she has come up with.

You may need to teach her how to tilt to adjust up/down.

We do practice that but a good proper swing is new to her starting this past off-season. Before that she liked to play ball but didn't resisted going out and working on her hitting. As she was 7yrs old I didn't want to drive her away from the game but rather tried to sneak in some proper mechanics as I could. Then a funny thing happened; she tried out for and made the all-star team. From then on she was on fire. All she wanted to do (sort of) was go practice. During that season I was hesitant to change too much. During this past off-season we would go work on things and she came quite far, but her abilities are still fragile. They are not ingrained in her to the depth that they will be next year and currently they need constant attention or they fall apart. With all that in mind there are times she will tilt and hit the balls in different locations and sometimes she forgets that and just takes a whack.

As you know when a players skills are just emerging you layer those abilities. Her ability to hit the ball in different locations was just starting as the season got underway. Each week she gets a bit better at it. I'm already thinking "If she can get by this season we can build on all of this and next year she will be more solid" which is true. It will be second year of being interested in working on things and her progress will really take off.

To sum up: Hitting the pitch in different locations is in progress. Tilting is something she does well sometimes, other times not. It's all related to her new found abilities and her willingness to have dad work with her.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Ah yes, Jean Piaget, who was an early pioneer in the stages of different developments in a child. It would be good for him to rethink his stages with "kids these days" and see if anything has changed. It would allow him to examine how much society (environment) influences the stages.

I agree. But I think that his research is still relevant.

[CoachHenry]

I've found that most of the time, when an "instructor" tells a player to swing down at the ball, and the player chops at the ball, they haven't taught the concept properly. And then they give up on a very good approach to hitting. The 2nd part of "starting down", is "finishing high" - there's NO WAY you can "chop" at a ball if you "finish high [with your hands]". Stand up and try it if you don't believe me.

Oh I agree, wasn't trying to tell you otherwise. Just that the first reaction of the girls is to chop down WITHOUT finishing high. I am able to have my older kids do this but I personally have trouble getting the younger ones to do it. I was hoping to convey that I personally had difficulties getting them to do it. Lack of that skill on my part. Other cues work well for me, that one does not at that age. I'd like to work with another coach (instructor, etc) that is better at that with that age to get some pointers.

[CoachHenry]

I agree. But I think that his research is still relevant.

Very much so. It would be good for each parent to have to read things like his before they have kids and maybe each year afterwards. It would help them interact with their child better. I find that being a coach is VERY psychological in nature. If you can't learn how to get inside those bee-hive heads and find out how to give them what works for THEM then your effectiveness is less then it could be.

[CoachHenry]

This is pretty basic, but my 8 year old daughter has a bad habit of plastering her back elbow to her side. I don't pick it up right away because I'm in front of her pitching, and her swings suddenly look bizarre and I can't figure out why. Then, I'll catch it and she'll free the elbow up, and she smacks the ball. She always needs reminding, though.

Those darn 8 yr olds! One way I helped redirect my daughters issue to do almost exactly what you DON'T want YOUR daughter to do. I had her lead her swing with her elbow. So when she was triggering her swing that allowed her to create a swing plane that matched her body tilt. Sort of anyways, for the problem she was having and her development. It's not close to what I want her doing but it made a huge difference in her swing and got her back to make solid contact. One or two more hitting sessions and I'll start to bring her back to what I think she should do. And as I stated a few posts back, I traded one problem for another but it was a fair trade at the time and I'm pleased with it for now.

[Chris O'Leary]

We do practice that but a good proper swing is new to her starting this past off-season. Before that she liked to play ball but didn't resisted going out and working on her hitting. As she was 7yrs old I didn't want to drive her away from the game but rather tried to sneak in some proper mechanics as I could. Then a funny thing happened; she tried out for and made the all-star team. From then on she was on fire. All she wanted to do (sort of) was go practice. During that season I was hesitant to change too much. During this past off-season we would go work on things and she came quite far, but her abilities are still fragile. They are not ingrained in her to the depth that they will be next year and currently they need constant attention or they fall apart. With all that in mind there are times she will tilt and hit the balls in different locations and sometimes she forgets that and just takes a whack.

As you know when a players skills are just emerging you layer those abilities. Her ability to hit the ball in different locations was just starting as the season got underway. Each week she gets a bit better at it. I'm already thinking "If she can get by this season we can build on all of this and next year she will be more solid" which is true. It will be second year of being interested in working on things and her progress will really take off.

To sum up: Hitting the pitch in different locations is in progress. Tilting is something she does well sometimes, other times not. It's all related to her new found abilities and her willingness to have dad work with her.

This is a fun age because you can see gigantic leaps in ability as kids go through developmental milestones (of course a few also lag behind and the ability gap can get quite big for kids of the same age).

I know my kids are much better players as 2nd graders than they were as 1st graders.

[CoachHenry]

This is a fun age because you can see gigantic leaps in ability as kids go through developmental milestones (of course a few also lag behind and the ability gap can get quite big for kids of the same age).

I know my kids are much better players as 2nd graders than they were as 1st graders.


HUGE difference. I remember going along for the ride when my son went through it. It's great to see them start to understand and when they do something new it's a joy.

Also one of the fun things to watch is see them become competitive. Though we keep score at our games we don't get too involved with it. However the girls want to know because if they lose they are going to hear about it at school the next day. I didn't realize the extent of it until one of the girls on my team said when a batter got up and their player was on third "LISTEN! We have to stop that runner because I don't want to hear about this ALL DAY TOMORROW!". We all got a good laugh out of that. So long as we win some and lose some I'm alright with it.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Also one of the fun things to watch is see them become competitive. Though we keep score at our games we don't get too involved with it. However the girls want to know because if they lose they are going to hear about it at school the next day. I didn't realize the extent of it until one of the girls on my team said when a batter got up and their player was on third "LISTEN! We have to stop that runner because I don't want to hear about this ALL DAY TOMORROW!". We all got a good laugh out of that. So long as we win some and lose some I'm alright with it.

I love it!!!!! Being competetive will help them later in life. It is sad that society is trying to "be nice" the competetive drive from our children.

[CoachHenry]

I love it!!!!! Being competetive will help them later in life. It is sad that society is trying to "be nice" the competetive drive from our children.

One of the main differences between the success of males versus the success of females in the adult world is the desire and ability to compete. Boys are expected to compete by default and girls are not. However this is slowly changing with the start of Title IX, female sports getting on tv (softball, WNBA, etc) and more females that have gone through that having daughters and dads who are qualified coaches paying attention to their daughters. As the girls are more and more becoming EXPECTED to compete they take that into adulthood and spawn another generation that is more competitive then they were.

Soon, in about 600 years, things will be equal.

[LClifton]

I am able to have my older kids do this but I personally have trouble getting the younger ones to do it. I was hoping to convey that I personally had difficulties getting them to do it. Lack of that skill on my part. Other cues work well for me, that one does not at that age. I'd like to work with another coach (instructor, etc) that is better at that with that age to get some pointers.
I lack the skill for sure.
Ever find yourself searching for that right set of words that will get her to swing better? I do. Much like your comment about the "leading with the elbow" resulting in a better overall path, I too have found that words can get results,,and the challenge is the right word set for that hitter that day.
For example, as an aside, I have used the word stretch instead of load for some of the younger hitters.

Coach, something that has helped (not with every hitter) is having the hitter imagine a "knob path".

I have explained to kids in this manner
"If there were a table top in front of you and you are only allowed to "skim" the table top (platform) with the knob of the bat, how would you go about doing that?

Thoughts:
Excluding the up location.
Would the barrel "drop" (in a good way) into the hitting zone without dropping the hands as the method of adjusting / trying to get the bat "on plane"? It might.
And I would be dead wrong if I tried to suggest this is the path on every pitch location. Perhaps though, a place to start in an attempt to groove a better path with no hand dropping.

(Last 2 frames the knob has done its "skimming" and is now working back up / around)

43469





Complete clip is too large for me to post.

[wogdoggy]

if you were teaching the 2 plane swing I would say a cure for hand dropping would be tip and GO in ONE MOTION...

I tell my kid to tip to the pitcher and GO

dont drop and go..TIP AND GO..all in one motion...It seems to work for him.

if you can get him to think tip and go he wont drop

[Ifubuildit]

Drill #1 is a pretty good way to address the hands dropping issue as well as setting a high tee. One of the things I have all my hitters doing on the on deck circle.

Drill #1 prior to stepping into the box.

Works well for them.

Elliott.

[Ifubuildit]

If that is the DD in that pic then you gotta love that swing. I too have to look for analogies that my students can relate to for visualization of hitting concepts.

Find the right one and the light bulb will turn on.

Elliott.

[LClifton]

Elliott,
No that is not my daughter.
The stills are from a clip of Taryn Mowat -- University of Arizona.
She hit this one to left center for a single and had a homerun in the game as well...now she doesn't hit in the line up, just pitches.

[Ursa Major]

Any idea why, other then she is 8 yrs oldThis is very much the nub of the issue, except that it also applies to kids who are 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. Kids experiment with various stances and movement patterns, no matter how many times you try to tell them that no major leaguer in the history of baseball has ever hit using the particular technique they're using. Hitting a baseball right requires the use of a number of motions that are counterintuitive and don't feel right at first. E.g. disconnecting is a lot more "natural" than is keeping your hands back as you rotate. So, they may rebel at having to use this alien technique into perpetuity.

A couple of possible drills/cues I've had success with in this age group:

1. In a tee or wiffle ball drill, have her keep her hands plastered to the earhole of her helmet and wrap the bat around her neck a little. Then, swing by rotating her back shoulders down through the ball. Maybe add the image of pulling a firehose off the wall. Don't necessarily have her do this in a game, but doing this exagerrated drill should get her farther away from the hand drop in real games.

2. If everything else (namely lower body rotation) is in good shape for her development level, try the one cue of "aim your back shoulder toward the pitcher's feet". By focusing on the shoulder, your DD is less likely to allow the hands to move away from her shoulder.

[CoachHenry]

Drill #1 is a pretty good way to address the hands dropping issue as well as setting a high tee. One of the things I have all my hitters doing on the on deck circle.

Drill #1 prior to stepping into the box.

Works well for them.

Elliott.

My son does this before every at bat. He didn't like the drill the first few times we did it (last year) but now sees the value of it. Especially when his HS coaches ask him about it and compliment him on it.

[CoachHenry]

I lack the skill for sure.
Ever find yourself searching for that right set of words that will get her to swing better? I do. Much like your comment about the "leading with the elbow" resulting in a better overall path, I too have found that words can get results,,and the challenge is the right word set for that hitter that day.
For example, as an aside, I have used the word stretch instead of load for some of the younger hitters.

Coach, something that has helped (not with every hitter) is having the hitter imagine a "knob path".

I have explained to kids in this manner
"If there were a table top in front of you and you are only allowed to "skim" the table top (platform) with the knob of the bat, how would you go about doing that?

Thoughts:
Excluding the up location.
Would the barrel "drop" (in a good way) into the hitting zone without dropping the hands as the method of adjusting / trying to get the bat "on plane"? It might.
And I would be dead wrong if I tried to suggest this is the path on every pitch location. Perhaps though, a place to start in an attempt to groove a better path with no hand dropping.

(Last 2 frames the knob has done its "skimming" and is now working back up / around)

43469





Complete clip is too large for me to post.

I will consider taking what you said and modifying it for her. Some other cues that I might use that I wouldn't if she was already doing well is the old "throw the hands at the ball.". That is again trading one problem for another but when you have a player who is taking everything you say so literal that you almost have to plan your words there are times when I'll trade one problem for another because I KNOW I can fix the problem we moved to.

[CoachHenry]

This is very much the nub of the issue, except that it also applies to kids who are 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. Kids experiment with various stances and movement patterns, no matter how many times you try to tell them that no major leaguer in the history of baseball has ever hit using the particular technique they're using. Hitting a baseball right requires the use of a number of motions that are counterintuitive and don't feel right at first. E.g. disconnecting is a lot more "natural" than is keeping your hands back as you rotate. So, they may rebel at having to use this alien technique into perpetuity.

A couple of possible drills/cues I've had success with in this age group:

1. In a tee or wiffle ball drill, have her keep her hands plastered to the earhole of her helmet and wrap the bat around her neck a little. Then, swing by rotating her back shoulders down through the ball. Maybe add the image of pulling a firehose off the wall. Don't necessarily have her do this in a game, but doing this exagerrated drill should get her farther away from the hand drop in real games.

2. If everything else (namely lower body rotation) is in good shape for her development level, try the one cue of "aim your back shoulder toward the pitcher's feet". By focusing on the shoulder, your DD is less likely to allow the hands to move away from her shoulder.

Good thoughts, except that when she moves her hands up that high that is when she is dropping and looping. I had to lower her hands to keep her from doing it. I will be getting her hands back up as I am able to help her un-do whatever it is she had in her head but for now she is putting the ball into play with authority (for an 8yr old) and I'm temporarily out of the woods. We go work on hitting about every other day depending on what she had going and throw against how much we have been doing softball lately, but so far the one "emergency fix" session and the one last night has things in a positive direction. Tomorrow we will go do it again and I'll have to determine how much I tinker with something she just go back to where she is having success.

After all, what I have her doing now isn't WRONG, it just isn't RIGHT. And I hesitate to mess with that too much.