All-Star nominations: How do I make it fair?

[jbolt_2000]

OK - so it looks like in our division of Little League (9-10y/o) we will have two All-Star teams after the season is over. An 'A' and a B' team. I will be nominating a total of 6 players from my team to tryout for either squad.

I have a solid 3 that I know will make the 'A' team and one more that I know will make the 'B' team. Thats four total nominations and I have two left over. I have four more players that I think are worthy of being nominated and I am confident that anyone of them can make the 'B' team if they have a good tryout.

My problem is that there are only two more slots left over and four possibilities, with one of those possibilities being my son. I want to make sure that I nominate the right kids but I do not want to look like I am favoring my son because "Dad is the coach". If I go strickly off of numbers then my son has them beat on defense, but is not so good in the hitting average (most people only really look at how good the kid hits, too). If I go off of heart and effort, then my son and one other are definite noms in my book.

So my question is, how should I nominate the last two players? Should I go off of just stats or a mix of stats and effort? Of course I want my son to make the team, but I also want to make sure that he has truly earned it and that I am not just giving it to him.

One more thing - I will be coaching the All-Star 'B' team so I will be deciding who makes the team.

[joeR]

I can say in our league every coach father nominated their own son and all but one made the team. The kids still have to make the team even after being nominated. If you cannot make the decision, have your assistant coaches, parents, or kids vote for the spots.

[jbolt_2000]

I can say in our league every coach father nominated their own son and all but one made the team. The kids still have to make the team even after being nominated. If you cannot make the decision, have your assistant coaches, parents, or kids vote for the spots.

I am in fact contemplating just letting the kids choose anonymously and then I just nominate the top 6 that have the most votes.

I've talked to my assistant coach too and he thinks that the last two picks should go to players that may not have a great chance of making the team but have the opportunity to tryout, just to say they at least made the nominations. This way we still get the 3-4 kids in there that earned it and then let a few others feel good about themselves for being nominated.

I'm still not sure though.

[Newyouthcoach]

I would let either the team members vote, or I would have the coaching staff pick. Speaking from my own experience as an assistant coach, I am facing the struggle of the "coach's kid". You would definately gave respect with everyone on the team, if you abstained from voting. Just my $0.02.

[CoachHenry]

I am in fact contemplating just letting the kids choose anonymously and then I just nominate the top 6 that have the most votes.


No. That can turn into a popularity contest and kids (like adults) have a problem with perception versus reality on abilities.

Once when I didn't have a clear view of my top five (like you the last spot was up for grabs) I did hand out ballots to the parents and told them that would carry a "certain amount of weight" versus what the coaches voted.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Doesn't sound like that big of an issue.

You claim that you ... "do not want to look like I am favoring my son because Dad is the coach".

You also claim that your son doesn't have that good of a batting average relative to the rest of the team.

Simple solution is not to subsidize you son's weak offensive performance.

Not only will you be sending your son the correct message that his performance governs his success, but you will gain kudos from everyone else.

Before you critize me for this advice, let me tell you that I have managed select summer teams in which I didn't select my kid. In the end, you do what is right and you can sleep well at night.

[TG Coach]

Stats in small numbers are very misleading. A lucky hitter (dink shots that fall) will appear to be better than an unlucky hitter (line drives right at fielders). Nominate the kids you believe will perform the best against quality competition. Don't screw your son to appear to be fair. If it's a tossup nominate your son for all the time you've put into the program. If your son becomes a tossup to make the B team, take him after asking other potential coaches their opinion. Do not select your son over a better candidate.

[digglahhh]

No. That can turn into a popularity contest and kids (like adults) have a problem with perception versus reality on abilities.

When I was a kid, that's how our teams usually did it. I actually think it usually worked out well. The anonymity of it mitigated the popularity contest to a large degree. Plus, it only really mattered at the margin, a point in which any decision is going to be largely subjective.


I assume you've asked all the kids if they are interested in playing, some kids go away for the summer, etc. That might make the decision for you.

I also think that nepotism is actually defensible to a degree. If your kid has a legit claim, though no more legit than another few, it is fine to take him and not worry about it. You are volunteering your(limited leisure) time, you are devoting your energy it's only right your kid benefit from that, again, as long as it's a pick 'em situation.

[baseballdad]

Do any leagues do a tiered selection process where the better teams from the season's standings would provide more players than lower teams?

[CoachHenry]

Stats in small numbers are very misleading. A lucky hitter (dink shots that fall) will appear to be better than an unlucky hitter (line drives right at fielders). Nominate the kids you believe will perform the best against quality competition. Don't screw your son to appear to be fair. If it's a tossup nominate your son for all the time you've put into the program. If your son becomes a tossup to make the B team, take him after asking other potential coaches their opinion. Do not select your son over a better candidate.

I agree with this. Your time and effort becomes the tie-breaker. Rank has privileges, when used correctly.

[jbolt_2000]

Do any leagues do a tiered selection process where the better teams from the season's standings would provide more players than lower teams?

Not our league. We all nominate 6 players this year, but they all have to tryout. So the potential is there that only one kid from Team #1 goes to all-stars and all 6 from Team #2 go to all-stars. All depends on the tryouts and the coache's making the selections.

[CoachHenry]

Not our league. We all nominate 6 players this year, but they all have to tryout. So the potential is there that only one kid from Team #1 goes to all-stars and all 6 from Team #2 go to all-stars. All depends on the tryouts and the coache's making the selections.

This is how our rec leagues do it as well.

[jbolt_2000]

Originally Posted by TG Coach
Stats in small numbers are very misleading. A lucky hitter (dink shots that fall) will appear to be better than an unlucky hitter (line drives right at fielders). Nominate the kids you believe will perform the best against quality competition. Don't screw your son to appear to be fair. If it's a tossup nominate your son for all the time you've put into the program. If your son becomes a tossup to make the B team, take him after asking other potential coaches their opinion. Do not select your son over a better candidate.


I agree with this. Your time and effort becomes the tie-breaker. Rank has privileges, when used correctly.

So, just to get it straight - the fact that I put in all the time to coach warrants me to select my own child (as long as it is a close selection, or tie-breaker)? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

[hawkiirock]

tough position. If you are coaching and picking the players on the B team then i think you should take your son if he is a tossup with the other B players on the team.


I wouldn't let the kids vote. Or you could ask a couple of coaches to watch a tryout amongst your B options. Let the parents know there are 2 spots available and you are holding a tryout for those 2 spots b/c it is so close

[CoachHenry]

So, just to get it straight - the fact that I put in all the time to coach warrants me to select my own child (as long as it is a close selection, or tie-breaker)? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

As a tie-breaker only. That may sound like it's daddy-ball but it's reality. The other side of the coin, which I have done, is to NOT send your (my) kid BECAUSE he was my son. That's punishing your (my) kid because he is your son. Which way do you go? Tough call but I will re-phrase what I said to you a bit.... I would not HOLD IT AGAINST YOU if you broke the tie by sending your son because of all the time and effort you put into the team.

Sounds crappy and I suppose on some level it is, but the tie must be broke. I would first consider allowing your parents and other coaches to vote but if there is still a tie, then you must resolve it somehow.

Some of our coaches don't even tell the parents that selections were made unless their child is picked. Stops the endless line of "why wasn't my son/daughter .....". Sometimes a very valid question, most times not.

[jbolt_2000]

When I was a kid, that's how our teams usually did it. I actually think it usually worked out well. The anonymity of it mitigated the popularity contest to a large degree. Plus, it only really mattered at the margin, a point in which any decision is going to be largely subjective.

I don't know if it will be fair or not. I can tell you that I give a game ball to one player every game and on two occassions the players said I should give the ball to 'X' player since they did such a good job during the game. Both of these kids were not the popular kids or all-stars. Good, but not all-stars. This leads me to believe that it won't be a popularity contest.


I assume you've asked all the kids if they are interested in playing, some kids go away for the summer, etc. That might make the decision for you.

I have informed all of the kids and parents of the commitment they will need to make during all-stars. I told them that I make no promises to any of the players for nominations right now, but they need to tell me if they will be out of town or not able to make it, regardless if they think their kid will be nominated or not.

At this time all 8 or 9 of my possible nominations are available to play. I was hoping some of them would go on vacation to make it easier on me :)

I also think that nepotism is actually defensible to a degree. If your kid has a legit claim, though no more legit than another few, it is fine to take him and not worry about it. You are volunteering your(limited leisure) time, you are devoting your energy it's only right your kid benefit from that, again, as long as it's a pick 'em situation.

I think you, TG and Coach Henry are all in agreement with this one. I agree with the reasoning, but perception from parents/coaches will not be seen that way.

[jbolt_2000]

As a tie-breaker only. That may sound like it's daddy-ball but it's reality. The other side of the coin, which I have done, is to NOT send your (my) kid BECAUSE he was my son. That's punishing your (my) kid because he is your son. Which way do you go? Tough call but I will re-phrase what I said to you a bit.... I would not HOLD IT AGAINST YOU if you broke the tie by sending your son because of all the time and effort you put into the team.

Sounds crappy and I suppose on some level it is, but the tie must be broke. I would first consider allowing your parents and other coaches to vote but if there is still a tie, then you must resolve it somehow.

Some of our coaches don't even tell the parents that selections were made unless their child is picked. Stops the endless line of "why wasn't my son/daughter .....". Sometimes a very valid question, most times not.

Thank you - definitely clears it up and makes me feel better about my options.

[shake-n-bake]

I regret using the fact he is my son against him in situations to put on a good appearance. A couple years ago he moved up a league ahead of nearly all of his peers and I used that as an excuse to not start him, not pitch him, and limit his playing time. I caved to the pressure of the parents until about mid-season when he clearly was playing at a higher level than kids getting more playing time. He never sat another inning and my attitude changed to "you think your kid should get more playing time? Maybe you ought to coach next year."

It is honorable that you do not want to look like you're favoring your kid. Choosing All-Stars teams in my kid's league are a mere formality, they're for the most part decided before the first pitch on opening day. I will be shocked beyond belief if my son makes All-Stars. He'll be the first kid nominated by his coach. He's given up two runs in 7 games pitching and had a stretch where he struck out 15 batters in a row. He's hitting well over .500 with about half of his teams RBIs. I truly, not exaggerating, believe he has a greater chance of playing MLB someday than being a Little League All-Star this year. I've apologized to him for this, because I've obviously failed him by not playing the game real well.

[shake-n-bake]

Sorry, posted the same message a second time in error.

[TG Coach]

I don't have any problem with the last tiebreaker being the kid of a parent who has dedicated many hours to the program.

Here's another way to go. After you select teams the next level of parental whining is over playing time. One year it was a tossup between four kids for the last spot. We selected the kid who's parents would be grateful he made the team and not complain about playing time. We knew what would happen with the other parents.

No matter how you make teams there will be critical parents. I love programs who claim to let the kids choose. I've never heard of a program that lets the kid choose every roster spot. They choose the first eight, where they will not make mistakes. Their top eight will include the best twelve.

Even if you let the kids choose every roster spot there will be parents complaining it's a mistake and a popularity contest. I don't believe kids can get every roster spot correct. They don't have the ability to discern which kids can succeed against top competition game after game. They can only discern who played well in their league. Those last few choices may make the difference in winning and losing at all-star time.

[TG Coach]

I regret using the fact he is my son against him in situations to put on a good appearance. A couple years ago he moved up a league ahead of nearly all of his peers and I used that as an excuse to not start him, not pitch him, and limit his playing time. I caved to the pressure of the parents until about mid-season when he clearly was playing at a higher level than kids getting more playing time.

In 8/9 basketball I was reluctant to play my son at point as an eight year old. There was enough of a buzz he was starting as an eight. After going 0-5 I moved him to point. The team finished 11-9. Even once the team was winning, one person said to my wife (didn't realize who he was talking with), "The only reason that kid starts is because his dad is the coach."

When you coach your kids you can't win (perceptions) until they establish themselves. I should have started him at point from game one. I knew it from the start too.

[SoftballDad]

"My problem is that there are only two more slots left over and four possibilities, with one of those possibilities being my son."

I was officially an assistant last year, but due to some unexpected responsibilities and other factors, became sort of a co-coach with the head coach. He and I had the same issues with both of our daughters, and were concerned with favoring them over the other players.

We looked at performance (perceived) and statistics, improvement during the year and then for tiebreakers we looked at things like attendance for games and practices. We did not penalize for family-related things like vacations, but we did look at participation in other activities. I don't have a problem with a girl being in multiple activities, but if there is a close decision, I'll go with the girl who attended more practices, etc. We are/were heavily affected by travel soccer and other activities and some of that is the parent's fault for over-booking the child ... which is their problem. My daughter participates in multiple sports, but she commits to one at a season. The fact is that at this level, all girls make mistakes and even though some may be better athletes, especially in softball, it doesn't mean that the missed practice is not evident when they make the wrong throw or baserunning blunder.

The fact of the matter is that a decision had to be made and the coaches are in the position to make those decisions. We looked at every factor ... almost to the point that it seemed like we were looking for reasons to exclude our daughters (which isn't fair to them either) ... and made decisions with reasons to back them up. Unfortunately, there is a limit and choices have to be made. Make the best decision that you can make and sleep peacefully.

[LAball]

Who cares if the coach favors his son. Its done all the time. If others thinks its unfair, then they should VOLUNTEER to be coach. That the perk you get. Its not like your getting paid.

"you think your kid should get more playing time? Maybe you ought to coach next year."

Exactly

Dont let the kids pick. This just happened yesterday when we played over the line. Two team captains and the first pick chosen was the 9th batter in the line up

[rkbenn]

Why waste time with tryouts! Everyone knows who is on the team before the tryout. I've been coaching for many years. My youngest is 9 and I made sure that I kept track of all my players accomplishments, ERA, errors, average, and OBP. You take care of it during the season! If your boy can pitch, or plays incredible defense, who cares if he can hit! But if you must do a tryout. All the coaches in the league should show up to the tryout and vote for all positions on Team A and Team B, and tally the votes. Don't put it in the hands of 9 and 10 yo's.

[Williamsburg2599]

Not to make things too complicated, but my suggestion would be 1/3rd Kids vote, 1/3rd Parents, and 1/3rd Coaches decision.

[TG Coach]

1/3rd Kids vote, 1/3rd Parents, and 1/3rd Coaches decision.

And you think the kids and coaches can be biased? I wonder how many parents understand the game well enough or pay attention enough to make these decisions.

[CoachHenry]

Here's another way to go. After you select teams the next level of parental whining is over playing time. One year it was a tossup between four kids for the last spot. We selected the kid who's parents would be grateful he made the team and not complain about playing time. We knew what would happen with the other parents.



How very true. On the other side my son got a call once to try out for a team a few towns over. They went and played more games and tourneys than I liked to see but as I was asking more about the team it became obvious that he and I were a package to them. He can play if I take over coaching one of their positions. Hell no. I want him to make a team and THEN we can see if I am right for any spots you have available.

And right on with what TG Coach said we have had discussions about the baggage parents bring with the kids if they get on the all-start team, etc.

[jbolt_2000]

Well last night we had a game and after the game I spoke with each kid individually and explained that i would like to know their thoughts on how should be nominated. I told them that it would not determine the outcome but that I wanted their honest opinions to help make the decision.

Well all in all the Top Four I figured to begin with were the nomination leaders and the last two were my son and one of the others that were in my "tie". Suprisingly some of the weaker kids or my first year players got some votes too. So, while their votes are not the end all, it will help me I think.

I also went to a couple of my coaches and they agreed my son should be in the top six as well. So that makes it easier if I choose him too.

In the end I think it was good to get the players thoughts, but definitely not going just off of their picks.

[jaybird_1981]

In my experience the best way to do this was have the kids, coaches, and umpires vote. And when we went to this system we fielded the most competitive teams the league had ever had, instead of teams selected solely on coaching bias.

[digglahhh]

Why waste time with tryouts! Everyone knows who is on the team before the tryout. I've been coaching for many years. My youngest is 9 and I made sure that I kept track of all my players accomplishments, ERA, errors, average, and OBP. You take care of it during the season!

Yeah, but the problem is those stats aren't accumulated against comparable competition. Plus, when you form all star teams kids are going to be undertaking different roles than they do during rec season. I played SS and hit in the middle of the order during rec seasons as a kid, on the traveling All Star teams I moved over to 2B and hit leadoff, or sometimes down in the order.

The talent disparity begins to disappear, so you need to factor things like focus, smarts, willingness to adjust, and versatility. Taking extra bases, working walks, deeking runners, adjusting my defensive positioning on the basis of a hitter giving away his approach - these kinds of things become a lot more important when everybody in the opposing line-up can hit, and every pitcher you face can pitch.

[TG Coach]

I made sure that I kept track of all my players accomplishments, ERA, errors, average, and OBP.

Take two kids. One plays on the first place team. He always faces the oppositions top pitcher and hits. 350. One plays on the last place team and always faces the oppositions third or fourth pitcher and hits .450. I'll bet you the .350 hitter will be the better all-star.

When I was involved with LL a coach tried to make a case about one of his .450 hitting players. I could tell just by observing his bat speed he wouldn't succeed in all-stars. I asked how many hits he had off the pitchers who will make all-stars. He hit about .100 against those pitchers and over .500 against less than all-star quality pitching. He would go 4-4 against the pussers. Case closed.

[yabby]

Like all the really hard decisions you have to make, try to reduce the complicated to the simple.

When you choose a team or select players for all stars, ask yourself "who will make my job as coach easier?"
Take all factors (including parents) into account.

[mudvnine]

Jbolt,this is 9/10 y/o, LL baseball that should not cause you so much grief. If your son is anywhere near "eligible" to make the "B" team put him on. If you don't and "your" team has any amount of success without your son there by your side, you will have more regret and question your decision, far more as the summer winds down then you have now trying to decide what's "fair".

Don't ever make decsions that would take away any father and son experiences you can have with your son, for fear of what others might think. They are young for such a short time, don't let the court of public opinion take any of that time away from the two of you.

Heck, your son knows where he stands in the mix and might just suprise you as he steps up his game to the next level on the all-star team, as he proves to all the possible nay-sayers that HIS dad made the right after all.


Put him on the team and have fun, :) :)
MV9

[Ursa Major]

Ah, All-star teams. For many parents, the regular season and the value of team camaraderie and the learning experience is rendered irrelevant by the one consideration -- will it get Johnny on the AS team? The politicking and maneuvering would make Karl Rove proud.

Our league makes it simple. Each team has thirteen players, with the manager allowed to pick the 13th player, who -- the rules expressly state -- usually will be the manager's own child. If he's not really deserving, he'll track pitches and get only nominal playing time, but he's not really taking a spot from a deserving player. Problem solved. Beyond that, all managers should be involved in selecting All-stars; this may result in a "you pick my kid and I'll pick yours" back-scratching situation, but it covers the managers' arses a little bit.

I think that a more important consideration than the advice we could give is the culture of the league. In most leagues, each and every manager's son makes the AS squad, in most cases deservedly, to be sure. Talk with other managers and see what they think. If it's an unwritten rule that the manager's kid makes it, then you should feel comfortable following that rule so long as your kid is good enough to not embarass you.

Often, some of the sting of not being initially selected for the team is softened by placing the "almost-selected" kids in a pool from which the team can draw to cover vacancies due to injuries and vacations. For many of these "almost there" kids, it's enough to go to one tournament and get the tourney t-shirt and the All-star team hat, even if they don't get much playing time.

[rkbenn]

Ah, All-star teams. For many parents, the regular season and the value of team camaraderie and the learning experience is rendered irrelevant by the one consideration -- will it get Johnny on the AS team? The politicking and maneuvering would make Karl Rove proud.

Our league makes it simple. Each team has thirteen players, with the manager allowed to pick the 13th player, who -- the rules expressly state -- usually will be the manager's own child. If he's not really deserving, he'll track pitches and get only nominal playing time, but he's not really taking a spot from a deserving player. Problem solved. Beyond that, all managers should be involved in selecting All-stars; this may result in a "you pick my kid and I'll pick yours" back-scratching situation, but it covers the managers' arses a little bit.

I think that a more important consideration than the advice we could give is the culture of the league. In most leagues, each and every manager's son makes the AS squad, in most cases deservedly, to be sure. Talk with other managers and see what they think. If it's an unwritten rule that the manager's kid makes it, then you should feel comfortable following that rule so long as your kid is good enough to not embarass you.

Often, some of the sting of not being initially selected for the team is softened by placing the "almost-selected" kids in a pool from which the team can draw to cover vacancies due to injuries and vacations. For many of these "almost there" kids, it's enough to go to one tournament and get the tourney t-shirt and the All-star team hat, even if they don't get much playing time.


Even at the MLB levell it's tough. It's easy to know who the special players are, but after that it's a crap shoot.. Make it know doubt that your kid makes it. Stats determine sucess, look at the HOF!

[TG Coach]

Stats determine sucess, look at the HOF!

HOF'er have thousands of AB's. A LL'er may get fifty or sixty in a season. Five line drives hit right at a fielder affect his BA by a minus 100. Conversely a kid with five lucky duck snorts can have his BA affected by plus 100. Which hitter do you think is going to succeed in all-stars against quality pitching and fielding?

Our LL played all-stars to win (son was on district champion two years). Bat speed was a requirement to make the team regardless of batting average.

[Jake Patterson]

Stats determine sucess, look at the HOF!

HOF'er have thousands of AB's. A LL'er may get fifty or sixty in a season.
... and the books are typically not kept properly, so the stats mean little.

[hawkiirock]

good point. I have one kid that gets on all the time by errors. Just seems like they always mess up for him more than others. lol... and the books are typically not kept properly, so the stats mean little.

[patsox]

Best post in this thread.

Jbolt,this is 9/10 y/o, LL baseball that should not cause you so much grief. If your son is anywhere near "eligible" to make the "B" team put him on. If you don't and "your" team has any amount of success without your son there by your side, you will have more regret and question your decision, far more as the summer winds down then you have now trying to decide what's "fair".

Don't ever make decsions that would take away any father and son experiences you can have with your son, for fear of what others might think. They are young for such a short time, don't let the court of public opinion take any of that time away from the two of you.

Heck, your son knows where he stands in the mix and might just suprise you as he steps up his game to the next level on the all-star team, as he proves to all the possible nay-sayers that HIS dad made the right after all.


Put him on the team and have fun, :) :)
MV9