Swing Suggestions - Video link

[pauly21]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SZ_dirv5WdI

Any suggestions.

Makes good contact, does not strike out.

Just having issues with lack of power and hitting
into the ground a lot (i know the video is a pop up)

Thanks for any suggestions.

[tip184]

He sets his hands in a great position to hit, but doesn't seem to load. I would recommend bringing the hands back as the pitch comes in, and leaning back on his right leg. This will help get the legs and hips into his swing. From what I saw it looked an all wrist and arms swing.

These look like very young ballplayers, so it's good to see their coach working on proper technique from a very early age. Keep it up.;)

[Chris O'Leary]

He sets his hands in a great position to hit, but doesn't seem to load.

1. I think his hands are too high. I would prefer that they were closer to the height of his back elbow.

2. I don't like how the head of the bat drops out of the swing plane and down behind him.

3. It looks like he's trying to swing down on the ball.

4. On the plus side, he shows less bat drag than most. Of course, this may be limiting his power at this age.

[pauly21]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

I have noticed that his hands are REALLY low at impact and right after,
could this be from having his hands too high and swinging down on the ball?

[rkbenn]

He doesn't have the proper plane of the swing.

1. toes in a bit
2. keep his weight back, he's transferring all his weight forward (he should be balanced, or weight back)
3. Right elbow will come into the body, and the butt of the bat will be pointed at the pitcher. On your son the butt of the bat is pointed at the spot he is hitting it, right into the ground.

Make sure he has the proper grip on the bat, tell him the squash the but (meaning back foot should rotate inward so the toe is pointed at the pitching and so is the belly button)

Lastly,

Hirer a hitting coach. At 9 my son swings a $30 bat and was the best hitter in AA, till he got called up to AAA because he was killing them in AA. I laugh at the dad that buys the $300 bat for a kid that can't swing.

I noticed a couple more things, but I didn't want to type a novel.

Rob

[Chris O'Leary]

I have noticed that his hands are REALLY low at impact and right after, could this be from having his hands too high and swinging down on the ball?

Yes, it can.

[Chris O'Leary]

2. keep his weight back, he's transferring all his weight forward (he should be balanced, or weight back)

This is bad advice.


tell him the squash the but (meaning back foot should rotate inward so the toe is pointed at the pitching and so is the belly button)

This is bad advice.

[LAball]

I think squish the bug is good for beginer batter. Ok for U11 batter. But once HS comes around its time to move on. At a young age it maybe harder to teach the more finite conceps of hitting to U11 and if the the kid has an akward swing, squish the bug maybe the ideal choice.

[Chris O'Leary]

I think squish the bug is good for beginer batter. Ok for U11 batter. But once HS comes around its time to move on. At a young age it maybe harder to teach the more finite conceps of hitting to U11 and if the the kid has an akward swing, squish the bug maybe the ideal choice.

I am teaching my 8Us the lower body action of the Major League Swing and none have a major problem doing it.

Squish the bug is a seemingly logical, but actually unnecessary, interim step.

[Mark H]

I agree with very little so far in this thread besides the above post. This hitter, and dad, need to understand athletic posture, good rotation and how to use that posture and rotation to turn into the ball. Here's a link to help illustrate some of these things to get you started. After that, I suggest Englishbey's materials but get someone's program and implement it. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[rkbenn]

I am teaching my 8Us the lower body action of the Major League Swing and none have a major problem doing it.

Squish the bug is a seemingly logical, but actually unnecessary, interim step.


This is a youth batter...Hello!

[rkbenn]

This is bad advice.




This is bad advice.

Taught by the A's and 2 time National Champs OSU. Your opinion. Watch a major league swing in slow motion.

[Mark H]

Chris is very right about this. Good news is you have come across some very important ideas you need to understand.

[Go Cardinals]

Chris is very right about this.

I agree with you mark h


wow, what has the world come to :D

[Baseball gLove]

He doesn't have the proper plane of the swing.

1. toes in a bit
2. keep his weight back, he's transferring all his weight forward (he should be balanced, or weight back)
3. Right elbow will come into the body, and the butt of the bat will be pointed at the pitcher. On your son the butt of the bat is pointed at the spot he is hitting it, right into the ground.

Make sure he has the proper grip on the bat, tell him the squash the but (meaning back foot should rotate inward so the toe is pointed at the pitching and so is the belly button)

Lastly,

Hirer a hitting coach. At 9 my son swings a $30 bat and was the best hitter in AA, till he got called up to AAA because he was killing them in AA. I laugh at the dad that buys the $300 bat for a kid that can't swing.

I noticed a couple more things, but I didn't want to type a novel.

Rob


I agree he is shifting forward. No MLB hitter squashes the bug. Squash the bug is a bad teach. I show the kids to turn the hips 1st and keep the hands even or behind the belly button/ inside and above the ball until contact.

[Chris O'Leary]

This is a youth batter...Hello!

8Us are second graders.

The kids on my rec team are plenty capable of getting decent hip rotation.

[Chris O'Leary]

Taught by the A's and 2 time National Champs OSU. Your opinion. Watch a major league swing in slow motion.

It may be widely taught, but it's still wrong.

Pujols isn't squishing the bug in the photo you posted.

He certainly isn't squishing the bug in this photo...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_NotSquishingTheBug_AlbertPujols_2006_HomeR un_022.jpg

[cosmo34]

Taught by the A's and 2 time National Champs OSU. Your opinion. Watch a major league swing in slow motion.


I'm slightly upset that we share the same name.

I think you don't have an understanding of what "squish the bug" really means. If you did, you would be running away from it like the plague.

[StraightGrain11]

Tell him to "finish high with [his] hands".

[mudvnine]

4. On the plus side, he shows less bat drag than most. Of course, this may be limiting his power at this age.

Chris, I've read where you've written this in the past and I'm intersted in hearing more of your thoughts on this. I'm kind of scratching my head on how bat drag increases power.

Thanks,
MV9


Edit: I've recently picked some up in my youngest son's swing via Sports Motion video and never associated it with power; he seems to have lost some.

[Baseball gLove]

8Us are second graders.

The kids on my rec team are plenty capable of getting decent hip rotation.

This one is 8 years old too. No squishing the bug here either.

[kylebee]

This one is 8 years old too. No squishing the bug here either.

Heh heh, I like the red circle in the last photo.

[Baseball gLove]

Heh heh, I like the red circle in the last photo.

Thanks. The scary part is that it was hit into a 15-25 mph wind.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, I've read where you've written this in the past and I'm intersted in hearing more of your thoughts on this. I'm kind of scratching my head on how bat drag increases power.

It can let you recruit more, bigger muscles into the swing.


Edit: I've recently picked some up in my youngest son's swing via Sports Motion video and never associated it with power; he seems to have lost some.

It will only increase your power if your timing is right (due to slow pitching or starting the swing very early). It can just as easily cause lots of swinging strikes and pushing the ball.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, I've read where you've written this in the past and I'm intersted in hearing more of your thoughts on this. I'm kind of scratching my head on how bat drag increases power.

It can let you recruit more, bigger muscles into the swing.


Edit: I've recently picked some up in my youngest son's swing via Sports Motion video and never associated it with power; he seems to have lost some.

It will only increase your power if your timing is right (due to slow pitching or starting the swing very early). It can just as easily cause lots of swinging strikes and pushing the ball.

[Mark H]

I'm kind of scratching my head on how bat drag increases power.

Thanks,
MV9


.

Bat draggers often show excellent power even for smaller hitters. Problem is their swing generally takes about 7 frames (between 6 and 7 for the stronger hitters) from first move of the bat head into the swing plane till contact. Because of this they have to make their decision early and so they make correct decisions less often given they have less information. They will look very good and show tantalizing power and then break your heart with inconsistency when the pitchers start throwing hard and changing speeds and spins. Even against good pitching they will occassionally bang it far.

I should add when I say frames I'm talking about frames in a standard 30 fps video. Best hitters in the world are four frames. Sometimes even slightly less. Five frames will get you a great hs career and quite a bit of success in college.

[rkbenn]

I'm slightly upset that we share the same name.

I think you don't have an understanding of what "squish the bug" really means. If you did, you would be running away from it like the plague.

These are little kids, squish the bug is something an 8 y/o understands to get great rotation of the back foot. Where not talking about developed kids. Make it fun to keep them interested and keep the game fun. Even if you say you rotate the hips like you're doing the Cha Cha, what does it mater. Every kid is not the sale and you can't take the same approach. My boy doesn't squish the bug, he's beyond that. You guys are really taking this too seriously. If they kid was 10, or 12 or 15, I'd take a different approach depending on the kid. One size doesn't fit all.

I spoke with a scout for the KC Royals for a couple hours at a College game. His advice is to make baseball fun so the kids will have memories for the rest of their life. This is not at the expense of teaching the fundamentals.

[Mark H]

Yeah but squish the bug is not a fundamental. I can get in my stance and do the watusi bug squish back and forth with my foot without ever moving my pelvis or anything else. If you are saying any given hitting cue, such as squish the bug, can be golden any given day with any given kid, sure. But squish the bug is an especially problematic cue. I'm sure you can come up with a more accurate cue and still keep it fun.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I spoke with a scout for the KC Royals for a couple hours at a College game. His advice is to make baseball fun so the kids will have memories for the rest of their life. This is not at the expense of teaching the fundamentals.

A good coach is one who can make this happen. I think most on this board have wonderful memories about playing ball. My best times were always having fun and learning more about the game.

[Chris O'Leary]

These are little kids, squish the bug is something an 8 y/o understands to get great rotation of the back foot. Where not talking about developed kids. Make it fun to keep them interested and keep the game fun. Even if you say you rotate the hips like you're doing the Cha Cha, what does it mater. Every kid is not the sale and you can't take the same approach. My boy doesn't squish the bug, he's beyond that. You guys are really taking this too seriously. If they kid was 10, or 12 or 15, I'd take a different approach depending on the kid. One size doesn't fit all.

Rather than teaching a kid to do something that they will have to unlearn when they get older, I prefer to teach them to do the right way the first time.

Also, unlearning things can be a very painful process, as I am learning with some of my 13Us who were never taught to hit or throw the right way the first time.

[Mark R]

I teach my kids to finishwith their belly button pointing towards the pitcher, not worrying about the trailing foot at this point. Is that the wrong approach for 7 year olds?

[Mark H]

The trailing foot should be a result, not a teach, so I wouldn't worry about that. As always, compare everything you are teaching to slow motion video of the best in the world as a self check.

[mudvnine]

It can let you recruit more, bigger muscles into the swing.

It will only increase your power if your timing is right (due to slow pitching or starting the swing very early). It can just as easily cause lots of swinging strikes and pushing the ball.

I understand incoorperating the bigger muscles, but I have always considered a connected swing using the hips into the "power L" position at contact, activates the bigger muscles of legs, hips, and torso while keeping stored energy (for no better term) until contact allowing for explosion through the ball at impact and extension. My oldest son does this extremely well and for an average to smaller player, hits with greater and more consistent power then most on his team.

Are you equating the bat drag with more of a "whip potential" of bat head speed into contact as power generation?


As a side note: I believe my son picked up the drag when he overemphasized his correction from a long swing to shorter swing, trying to "keep his hands inside the ball". What other verbal cues do you guys use to shorten the path to the ball? "Hands inside the ball" worked well for my older son and all of my other hitters, but for some reason, my youngest has equated it to almost having his hands on his body and causing them to be too far ahead if his hips, to the point that his hands are out in front at contact and extension is a non factory for trajectory.

As far as timing, he still makes great contact, seldom strikes out, and uses the entire field, but he has lost elevation of the ball and is hitting hard grounders, versus the line drives he had with the longer swing.

Thoughts? . . . . thanks

[rkbenn]

Rather than teaching a kid to do something that they will have to unlearn when they get older, I prefer to teach them to do the right way the first time.

Also, unlearning things can be a very painful process, as I am learning with some of my 13Us who were never taught to hit or throw the right way the first time.

Jesus, why are u so hung up on the bug thing? I believe we share the same thoughts. They only difference is approach with an 8 year old, and I believe you teach shifting your weight to a stiff front leg if I'm not mistaken. I believe rotating the on a stationary axis. Weight forward is a result of the swing, not a weight shift. These are too different thoughts. My kids, including my son are very successful. My 9 year old is tearing up AAA pitching and the only 9 in the league. There are different rules of thought, I didn't join to get my ideas bashed in. The swing I'm teaching is what they teach for the Oakland A's., these are not my ideas...geez.

Don't follow the bright light people!

[mudvnine]

The swing I'm teaching is what they teach for the Oakland A's.

Rkbenn, you've referred to the "swing they're teaching the A's" a couple times now and I'm wondering, is it Van Burkleo's methods you are teaching or somebody elses? I'm curious to hear what Van Burkleo is teaching, he was the roving hitting instructor with the Angels' farm teams for six years and they have some pretty decent hitting up and comers (Kenrick, Aybar, Kotchman, Wood, Napoli, Willits, Mathis . . .) that I wonder if Van Burkleo had any influence on.

How did you get Van Burkleo's teachings, I haven't seen any books or videos from him, do you have info on where to find his stuff?


MV9

[cosmo34]

These are little kids, squish the bug is something an 8 y/o understands to get great rotation of the back foot. Where not talking about developed kids. Make it fun to keep them interested and keep the game fun. Even if you say you rotate the hips like you're doing the Cha Cha, what does it mater. Every kid is not the sale and you can't take the same approach. My boy doesn't squish the bug, he's beyond that. You guys are really taking this too seriously. If they kid was 10, or 12 or 15, I'd take a different approach depending on the kid. One size doesn't fit all.

I spoke with a scout for the KC Royals for a couple hours at a College game. His advice is to make baseball fun so the kids will have memories for the rest of their life. This is not at the expense of teaching the fundamentals.

I would rather have no instruction, than bad instruction.

When I was 8, no one ever told me to "squish the bug". In fact, I can't remember anyone telling anyone to do that at that age, where I played. Since the kids I grew up with, several are playing D1, two have been drafted, and several others have been very productive in their college careers thus far. We seemed to turn out just fine.

[Mark H]

I believe rotating the on a stationary axis. !

After weight shift/momentum development, sure. Paul was right when he said you have to have some forward momentum to rotate well. You don't have to have a lot, but you have to have some. If you will watch elite hitters you will see the hips, or more, shift foward before/into rotation. It's not really arguable looking at video of elite hitters. I bet if you watch your better hitters carefully, especially on slow motion video, you will see they have figured this out on their own intuitively. The nature of the shift and momentum conversion gets argued all the time but rarely is the existence of a shift/momentum development argued.

[Mark H]

I would rather have no instruction, than bad instruction.

When I was 8, no one ever told me to "squish the bug". In fact, I can't remember anyone telling anyone to do that at that age, where I played. Since the kids I grew up with, several are playing D1, two have been drafted, and several others have been very productive in their college careers thus far. We seemed to turn out just fine.

Well to take the other side for a moment I don't think he's arguing there can't be other good cues. He just likes this one. Perhaps when he begins to understand the nature of good rotation and how and why the back foot rolls up onto the toe rather than pivoting on the ball, he will change his mind.

[rkbenn]

Rkbenn, you've referred to the "swing they're teaching the A's" a couple times now and I'm wondering, is it Van Burkleo's methods you are teaching or somebody elses? I'm curious to hear what Van Burkleo is teaching, he was the roving hitting instructor with the Angels' farm teams for six years and they have some pretty decent hitting up and comers (Kenrick, Aybar, Kotchman, Wood, Napoli, Willits, Mathis . . .) that I wonder if Van Burkleo had any influence on.

How did you get Van Burkleo's teachings, I haven't seen any books or videos from him, do you have info on where to find his stuff?


MV9

I took my son to ABC Camps, Greg Sparks was the instructor, Hitting Coordinator for the A's.

[Go Cardinals]

I took my son to ABC Camps, Greg Sparks was the instructor, Hitting Coordinator for the A's.

a guy on my team said he took some lessons from a hitting coach from the a's

[rkbenn]

Well to take the other side for a moment I don't think he's arguing there can't be other good cues. He just likes this one. Perhaps when he begins to understand the nature of good rotation and how and why the back foot rolls up onto the toe rather than pivoting on the ball, he will change his mind.

I do understand and it is a cue for an 8 year old, and yes my kid, and the others I coach finish high on their back toe, not heel.

[azmatsfan]

I teach my kids to finishwith their belly button pointing towards the pitcher, not worrying about the trailing foot at this point. Is that the wrong approach for 7 year olds?

Last year I taught my t-ballers to point their belly buttons at the start of the swing to where they want to hit the ball. I had much better luck with this cue than "squishing the bug". And these were 5 and 6 year olds. Although I think it helps to look at the back foot as a cue. I tell them that if their back foot doesn't rotate, then they aren't pointing their belly button at the pitcher.

[Swing Coach]

1. If (and only if) a little kid has poor rotation, I see it as a logical first step to teach him how to squish the bug. Once he is rotating correctly, then I would start working on weight shift.

2. The boy in the original post has an incorrect swing plane...down through the ball. This also creates a very small hitting zone and does not allow the bat any direct momentum into the ball. THis is why he may be grounding out a lot and hitting for little power.

3. Jim Thome once told me he would spend hours throwing up tiny rocks and smashing them over an imaginary fence. Like a fungo hit. Any kid who can throw a ball up and hit it into center field has the base for a sound, mechanical swing. The boy in the video would find this activity impossible. But workign on it would be fun for him and his mechanics would begin to improve along with his success at the drill.

[Mark H]

1. If (and only if) a little kid has poor rotation, I see it as a logical first step to teach him how to squish the bug. Once he is rotating correctly, then I would start working on weight shift..

If he's squishing the bug he's not rotating correctly.



Any kid who can throw a ball up and hit it into center field has the base for a sound, mechanical swing.

That's what Epstein says but then Epstein, given the pictures he has posted, has no notion of the problem of bat drag. He seems to have little opinion or clue on arm action other than the weather vaning nonsense. I once asked him in person how his hitters transition away from the bat on the deltoid. He looked like he'd never heard the question before and answered, "Well..., some never do".

[Slapper23]

Mark, I guess the Epstein weather vaning "nonsense", as you refer to it, is much like the Englishbey nonsense of hold onto the bat (aka dead hands) and rotate like a mother. Is that what you're talking about?

Mike

[rkbenn]

After weight shift/momentum development, sure. Paul was right when he said you have to have some forward momentum to rotate well. You don't have to have a lot, but you have to have some. If you will watch elite hitters you will see the hips, or more, shift foward before/into rotation. It's not really arguable looking at video of elite hitters. I bet if you watch your better hitters carefully, especially on slow motion video, you will see they have figured this out on their own intuitively. The nature of the shift and momentum conversion gets argued all the time but rarely is the existence of a shift/momentum development argued.

Good point, but how can u explain Barry Bonds swing? There are 100 ways to skin a cat, that's all I'm saying. I stay open to suggestions. I was at a Grizzlies game in Fresno, and I seen a number approaches. You can't expect every player to do the same. Work to their strengths.

[rkbenn]

1. If (and only if) a little kid has poor rotation, I see it as a logical first step to teach him how to squish the bug. Once he is rotating correctly, then I would start working on weight shift.

2. The boy in the original post has an incorrect swing plane...down through the ball. This also creates a very small hitting zone and does not allow the bat any direct momentum into the ball. THis is why he may be grounding out a lot and hitting for little power.

3. Jim Thome once told me he would spend hours throwing up tiny rocks and smashing them over an imaginary fence. Like a fungo hit. Any kid who can throw a ball up and hit it into center field has the base for a sound, mechanical swing. The boy in the video would find this activity impossible. But workign on it would be fun for him and his mechanics would begin to improve along with his success at the drill.

Thank u swingcoach. 95 percent of the U9's don't understand the rotation. They do step on bugs...it's a good start, but of course not ideal. My 9 year old gets It. Cues...then take it to the next level. Just like pitching...start from the ground up.

[jbooth]

Good point, but how can u explain Barry Bonds swing?

Could you elaborate on this? What do you mean? Are you saying he doesn't shift? Or, are you saying he is incredibly unique?

Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Billy Williams, Frank Robinson and Barry Bonds have nearly identical fundamentals. Except that Ruth took a long stride.