Most incompetent organization

[mrakbaseball]

Seattle is without a doubt the most incompetent team in MLB. To have a team this bad with a 117 million dollar payroll is hard to do. How does Bill Bavasi continue to find employment is beyond me. Did nothing with the Angels, and will have 4 last place finishes in 5 years with the Mariners. Idiot CEO Lincoln, idiot president Armstrong. In 16 years of ownership Yamauchi san has never attended a game. They are lucky they are tucked away in the Pacific northwest. The national media is too focused on the non issue with the Mets and Randolph. Many former M's thrive once they leave Seattle. Also Seattle is where free agents fall off the cliff. Carl Everett, Jeff Weaver, Rich Aurillia, Wilkerson, Sexson. Batista, Washburn, Silva. Bavasi cannot be allowed to inflict any more damage.

[Brian McKenna]

The Orioles already own that title and haven't done a thing to relinguish it.

[bigtime39]

The Orioles already own that title and haven't done a thing to relinguish it.

The Orioles put down the shovel and started crawling out of the hole the day Andy MacPhail came on board.

[SamtheBravesFan]

The Orioles are definitely the worst organization as of this moment. However, the Erik Bedard trade gives them a slight reading on the "we know what we're doing" scale. The Mariners are currently the most incompetent, not neccesarily the worst.

mrak, I'd hardly blame Yamauchi for being unable to attend a Mariners game. He's 80 years old. He had to step down from the presidency of Nintendo in 2002 because of his health. Why should he fly across the Pacific to attend a Mariners game?

What does Lincoln have to do with incompetent baseball people? He's not a baseball person. He seems to me to be a figurehead CEO. That would be like me blaming Liberty Media for the Braves' inability to win games on the road.

[Zagi-CRO]

What's about the Yankees? :) :)
IMO, the Padres is the biggest looser now.

[SamtheBravesFan]

What's about the Yankees? :) :)
IMO, the Padres is the biggest looser now.

Well, we're talking about a general trend here, Zagi. The Padres have been pretty successful despite their chronic offensive problems. Even though they haven't won more than 90 games in a decade, in the last four years, they've won two division titles in the very weak NL West. They must be doing something right.

[Gregory Pratt]

Seattle is without a doubt the most incompetent team in MLB. To have a team this bad with a 117 million dollar payroll is hard to do. How does Bill Bavasi continue to find employment is beyond me. Did nothing with the Angels, and will have 4 last place finishes in 5 years with the Mariners. Idiot CEO Lincoln, idiot president Armstrong. In 16 years of ownership Yamauchi san has never attended a game. They are lucky they are tucked away in the Pacific northwest. The national media is too focused on the non issue with the Mets and Randolph. Many former M's thrive once they leave Seattle. Also Seattle is where free agents fall off the cliff. Carl Everett, Jeff Weaver, Rich Aurillia, Wilkerson, Sexson. Batista, Washburn, Silva. Bavasi cannot be allowed to inflict any more damage.

For some of those guys steroid testing might be a much bigger factor. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

I mean, I think Bavasi is awful and he is. But he can hardly be blamed because people came to his ballpark without the strength to homer there anymore.

[bigtime39]

The Orioles are definitely the worst organization as of this moment. However, the Erik Bedard trade gives them a slight reading on the "we know what we're doing" scale. The Mariners are currently the most incompetent, not neccesarily the worst.

Sam:
A year ago, I'd have agreed with you. However, since the hiring of Andy MacPhail, the Orioles have:
Turned Steve Trachsel, Miguel Tejada and Erik Bedard into a 13-player haul, including their current starting LF, CF, and two ML relievers.
Begun participation in a Dominican Academy.
Are close to resolving their spring training site dilemma.
Have increased their international scouting department.
Hired Dave Trembley as manager. (Even though the team is at .500, they play the game right. I think DT was the best managerial hire of 2007.)
Hired Rick Kranitz as pitching coach, and Allan Dunn as bullpen coach. (Kranitz has turned around Daniel Cabrera, in a big way. Dunn has already paid dividends, as well.)

[Erik Bedard]

bigtime, you're dead on. Except it was 12 guys out of Trax, Bedard, and Tejada (2 for Trax, 5 each for the other two). And you forgot The Savior of the Baltimore Orioles, Matt Wieters.

The M's have got to be close. They overestimated their flukish 2007 season in predicting their 2008 prospects, spent the farm for Bedard, and now look where they are. Johjima was a bad signing, as he can't call a game for his life, Beltre's 2004 was a huge anomaly, Washburn's '05 and '02 were out of line with the rest of his career, and don't even get me started on Jeff Weaver. Five good games should not give him that kind of contract. But their biggest mistake, IMO, was giving Ichiro that monstrous contract. He's just not a guy you can build a franchise around.

[hellborn]

I think the O's show signs of turning things around.
However, Angelos could step in next week and hose everything up again. Just like he's done for years.
If they get through a season without that, I'll take them off the bottom of my list.

[sturg1dj]

so does this mean the Pirates have been good lately? if the Orioles are worse than they are.

I guess if you count the Browns years then historically they are the worst...but then again the Phillies would be the worst...right?

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I think the Orioles are the worst but Texas is right there and San Diego is catching up fast.

Question: Why on earth would San Diego sign a declining Jim Edmonds for a that ballpark? First off, his range is diminshed so its hard for him to cover ground. Second, he probably couldn't hit 10 homers all year and all of them would be opposite field.

Why didn't Kevin Towers get Tony Gwynn Jr. from the Brewers in the Scott Linebrink trade last year? Seems like a perfect fit.

[RubeWaddell19]

I'd have to go with the Texas Rangers. One playoff win in 47 seasons. They have been at best a mediocre organization, fielding some very bad teams. An organization responsible for some of the great blunders in recent history (David Clyde, the A-Rod contract etc.) And they have the distinction of having two of the worst owners in history, Bob Short and Tom Hicks.

[bigtime39]

bigtime, you're dead on. Except it was 12 guys out of Trax, Bedard, and Tejada (2 for Trax, 5 each for the other two). And you forgot The Savior of the Baltimore Orioles, Matt Wieters.

No...it wound up being three, although it's listed as a two-player deal on the Cubs transactions page at MLB.com. For whatever reason, Jake Renshaw came to the Orioles as a PTBNL in that deal, and right now is tearing it up in Fredrick (6-2 record, and an ERA around 3.25).

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I'd have to go with the Texas Rangers. One playoff win in 47 seasons. They have been at best a mediocre organization, fielding some very bad teams. An organization responsible for some of the great blunders in recent history (David Clyde, the A-Rod contract etc.) And they have the distinction of having two of the worst owners in history, Bob Short and Tom Hicks.

Don't forget the Chris Young/Adrian Gonzalez trade for Akinori Osuka and Adam Eaton. AG is probably the best power hitter in the NL when you adjust for home park. Its an absolute graveyard for lefthanded hitters in Petco yet he's doing awesome!

[Erik Bedard]

No...it wound up being three, although it's listed as a two-player deal on the Cubs transactions page at MLB.com. For whatever reason, Jake Renshaw came to the Orioles as a PTBNL in that deal, and right now is tearing it up in Fredrick (6-2 record, and an ERA around 3.25).

:disbelief:

Wow. Steal of the year, anyone?

[The Splendid Splinter]

No...it wound up being three, although it's listed as a two-player deal on the Cubs transactions page at MLB.com. For whatever reason, Jake Renshaw came to the Orioles as a PTBNL in that deal, and right now is tearing it up in Fredrick (6-2 record, and an ERA around 3.25).

Yeah that's because it's the Cubs. They gotta be one of the worst despite having some success. Sometimes they do some good things and then sometime they make you go... :disbelief: what??? :disbelief:

[NineWorldSeries]

The Reds might not be the most incompetent organization, but they are so routinely bad that they must be at least discussed. Dusty Baker is doing a very fine job of running them even further into the ground, too.

[redlegsfan21]

I have to say Texas, with all the pitching trouble they have, they keep trading prospects away. Look at Danks and Volquez, two guys helping out new teams while Texas continues to have pitching trouble.

[Solair Wright]

My vote goes to Texas, easily. They insist that every year, their offense will lead them to the AL West title, yet they collapse each year because of pitching problems. Batting and home runs win some games, but not all of them. Just because they have a team capable of possibly scoring 600-700 runs, doesn't mean that they're "the team to beat" that owner Tom Hicks and others claim each year.

They've not been in the playoffs since 1999, and they've not won a playoff game since 1996. If the Rangers for once had a team that didn't over-rely on offense, they would be a better team.

[Imgran]

Texas gets a momentary stay of execution because of the Gagne and Hamilton trades.

[Wade8813]

Seattle's certainly trying hard to be at the top of this list, but teams like the Pirates and Rangers have been annual contenders for the title of being the worst for so much longer.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Royals, Brewers, Rays, or Nationals. The Nats/Expos haven't finished first in their division or the wildcard since 1994. Thet have only won their division/the wildcard twice in their entire history, and both of those years were strike shortened. The Royals haven't finished first in their division/the wildcard since the year I was born (1985 - although they did win the WS then). The Brewers haven't won anything in even longer. I'm not sure where to rank the Tigers, since they did do fairly well the last couple years, and people expected them to do well this year. But they're doing horribly this year, and before 2006, they were definitely the worst. IIRC, 119 losses is the ML record, and by a decent margin. I'm also not sure where to rank the Rays - they have yet to win even 70 games in a season, but are doing well so far this year, and have some excuse since they're such a new team.

The Mariners are newbs at sucking. We've got to keep it up for several years before we can top the list, in my opinion. And if any of these other teams also continue to do horribly, then they'll stay above us on that list.

Just looking at W/L record (and not the poor decisions that got them there) for the last several years, the Pirates, Royals, Brewers, and Nationals are the contenders for this dubious crown. The Pirates haven't even achieved a .500 record in the last 16 years.

If I had to pick one, I think I would go with the Pirates, because they have an amazing run of consistently being bad that no other team has had recently (to be fair, I have no idea how far back I should look at teams. If you want to look at their whole history, the Nats probably take the crown, since they've never placed in a non-strike shortened season).

[Erik Bedard]

I'd go with the Pirates #1, Rangers #2, Nats #3. Not good now, and very little imminent help on the way. Orioles, Mariners, Royals in the next group. The O's and Royals at least have some talent on the way, and the Mariners still might be good this year. Then the Rays and Brewers in the they're-turning-it-around-but-not-there-yet group.

[Seattle1]

I'd go with the Pirates #1, Rangers #2...

Yeah me too. The Pirates for the last 15 years or so of zero success. The Rangers because their franchise-long record of non-success. Rays #3.

The Mariners have been very frustrating this season, but I am not going to panic yet. But I do think MacLaren has to be fired at this point. There's no way around it.

[leecemark]

For some of those guys steroid testing might be a much bigger factor. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

I mean, I think Bavasi is awful and he is. But he can hardly be blamed because people came to his ballpark without the strength to homer there anymore.

--Those players came to his ballpark because he signed them to contracts or traded for them. He can definately be blamed and should be fired before he can do any more damage.

[redlegsfan21]

Yeah me too. The Pirates for the last 15 years or so of zero success. The Rangers because their franchise-long record of non-success. Rays #3.

The Mariners have been very frustrating this season, but I am not going to panic yet. But I do think MacLaren has to be fired at this point. There's no way around it.

As my roommate from Pittsburgh says, "there's a team in Pittsburgh?"

[Seattle1]

As my roommate from Pittsburgh says, "there's a team in Pittsburgh?"

Well, there's a nice stadium, but apparently it's threatening to leave town unless a better team is built to play in it:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50814

:rofl:

[bigtime39]

In the "how things change" department:
MLB baseball in Montreal was absolutely destroyed by the 1994 shutdown. The Expos were in first place in the NL East when play was halted that season. Imagine how much different the story would be had they made it to the World Series that season. They could have become a team to recon with, at least periodically.
This time last year, Tampa Bay would have been on everyone's list. Now, their young talent seems to be jelling, and they're having their best season--ever.

[mrakbaseball]

The Mariners are newbs at sucking. We've got to keep it up for several years before we can top the list, in my opinion. And if any of these other teams also continue to do horribly, then they'll stay above us on that list.

The Mariners have been awful for most of their existence. Even when they had winning seasons they had obvious flaws that were never remedied. Since Tampa Bay is in ist place after Memorial Day they are off the list. Maybe they could take Johjima and his unearned 3 year extension off Seattle's hands.

[zahavasdad]

How about the Florida Marlins

they WIN a World Series in 1996, the Owner Trades away the team

They WIN again in 2003, AGAIN the owner trades away the team

The get the Manager of the year in 2005 Joe Girardi, He is FIRED.

They have so turned off the South Florida Fans, Its a wonder ANYONE is a Florida Marlin Fan?

Considering how many Northerners in Southern Florida who are Baseball Fan, yet they have no base

[mojorisin71]

The Dodgers of the 90s have got to be on the list

* Trading away Pedro Martinez because he was "too small"
* The Piazza trade
* The Kevin Brown signing
* The Darren Dreifort signing
* The Konerko-for-Shaw trade
* The Carlos Perez signing
* Forcing Mike Scioscia out of the organization

And that's just off the top of my head

[sturg1dj]

The Dodgers of the 90s have got to be on the list

* Trading away Pedro Martinez because he was "too small"
* The Piazza trade
* The Kevin Brown signing
* The Darren Dreifort signing
* The Konerko-for-Shaw trade
* The Carlos Perez signing
* Forcing Mike Scioscia out of the organization

And that's just off the top of my head

maybe bad trades and signings...but their scouting was awesome...so its hard to say they are the most incompetent

if we are just going by eras how about the Randy Smith led Tigers...did NOTHING right

1996-2002


Trading 4 good young players (even if 2 did nothing) for Juan Gonzalez who was pretty vocal about not wanting to be a Tiger...then offered Juan the largest contract in MLB history at the time AND HE TURNED IT DOWN!!

1st Round draft Picks
1996 - Seth Greisinger (now an ace....in Japan)
1997 - Matt Anderson - P (#1 Overall)
1998 - Jeff Weaver - P (ok pick)
1999 - Eric Munson - C
2000 - Matt Wheatland - P
2001 - Kenny Baugh - P
2002 - Scott Moore - SS

and these were all pretty high picks

traded David Wells to the Reds for CJ Nitkowskit

traded Phil Nevin for a minor leaguer who never played in the bigs

traded Luis Gonzaled for Karim Garcia

key free agent signings include:
Omar Oliveras
Vince Coleman
Bob Hamelin
Luis Polonia
Hideo Nomo
Randall Simon
Willie Blair



and they had 4 managers during this stretch

Buddy Bell
Larry Parrish
Phil Garner
Luis Pujols....and while Pujols was manager Felipe Alou WAS THE BENCH COACH!!!!!!!!

[cardsfanatic]

If we're talking about for the entire length of the franchise then the Texas Rangers win this hands down. They have no peers.

If we're talking currently, I think it'd be hard to go against the Pirates.

[Evangelion]

Texas gets a momentary stay of execution because of the Gagne and Hamilton trades.
The Hamilton traded worked out for both Texas and Cincinnati at the moment. The Gagne trade was one sided as the Rangers have David Murphy producing and a viable young starter in Gabbard while the Red Sox lost a number of games due to Gagne along with losing both young players. Not the same case with the Texas and Cincinnati deal. Texas needs helps with just about every thing. Even if Volquez was dominating for the Rangers, their offense would have issues without Hamilton.

[Biggtone23]

Lets not forget the Royals under Allard Baird, who traded an full outfield of all stars (Carlos Beltran, Johnny Damon and Jermaine Dye) and the best players they got back were Mark Teahen and Angel Berroa.

They traded Damon and Mark Ellis for Berroa, AJ Hinch and a over the hill Roberto Hernandez. Then sent Dye to the Rockies (who immedieatly flipped him to the A's) for Neifi Perez. Then Beltran for Teahen, Mike Wood and John Buck.

The only starting pitchers of note to come out of the system in the last decade were Jose Rosado and Runelyvs Hernandez. That alone speaks volumes.

[zahavasdad]

Bad trades do not make a incompetent organization

Destroying your FAN base is the worst decision you can make.

You can make bad player trades, but you cannot make bad FAN trades (get a fan so mad he goes to a different sport or no sport)

[sturg1dj]

not much talk about the Phillies here



I was thinking about how Veeck wrote about wanting to buy the Phils in 1945 and stock it with Negro League All-Stars only to have the team sold for less to another buyer (true or not this is what Veeck wrote). Imagine a Phillies team in 1945 against a depleted major league with a Negro League All-Star team....if the Negro Leagues had as talented of players as we here that could have changed the Phillies forever!

Maybe (and this is total speculation) the fans may have also changed in mindset, remember Phili is a city that is considered by many players as one of the most racist.

All speculation...and no fact

[Wade8813]

The Mariners have been awful for most of their existence. Even when they had winning seasons they had obvious flaws that were never remedied. Since Tampa Bay is in ist place after Memorial Day they are off the list. Maybe they could take Johjima and his unearned 3 year extension off Seattle's hands. What were the obvious flaws in 2001? I didn't notice them...

[Imgran]

They had some issues with depth in their rotation, they didn't really have a frontline ace, and they were relying on career years from Aaron Sele and Jamie Moyer. THe rookie brilliance of Joel Pineiro covered that up to some extent but the fact remained that the Seattle rotation of 2001 wasn't nearly as good as it played.

[Wade8813]

They had some issues with depth in their rotation, they didn't really have a frontline ace, and they were relying on career years from Aaron Sele and Jamie Moyer. THe rookie brilliance of Joel Pineiro covered that up to some extent but the fact remained that the Seattle rotation of 2001 wasn't nearly as good as it played. So, they're problem was they weren't as good on paper as they played in real life? Because part of their problem now is the opposite - they're not playing as well as they appear on paper. You have to pick one or the other to use as criteria. And really, how they actually played seems like the true measure, to me.

We didn't have a frontline ace, but that's not a big deal. As far as I know, there's no advantage to having a true ace over having the same talent more spread out in the rotation. Our rotation wasn't amazingly deep, but with good years from Garcia, Moyer, and Sele, plus an excellent stint from Pineiro, wasn't particularly lacking either.

I don't think you could call it a career year from Moyer. He had 4-5 other years that were somewhat comparable. Sele had a career year, but it wasn't drastically better than his other years, and besides, he was our #3, not our #1 or #2.

[Steve Jeltz]

I was thinking about how Veeck wrote about wanting to buy the Phils in 1945 and stock it with Negro League All-Stars only to have the team sold for less to another buyer (true or not this is what Veeck wrote). Imagine a Phillies team in 1945 against a depleted major league with a Negro League All-Star team....if the Negro Leagues had as talented of players as we here that could have changed the Phillies forever!

Maybe (and this is total speculation) the fans may have also changed in mindset, remember Phili is a city that is considered by many players as one of the most racist.

All speculation...and no fact

There has been some debate on whether this story is true. Veeck wanted to buy the Phils in 1942. The story goes that he told Landis about his plan to stock the team with Negro League All Stars. Landis subsequently squashed the impending sale to Veeck and ordered Phils owner, Gerry Nugent, to sell the team to William Cox.

Why would Veeck tell Landis, a known racist, of his plan? Veeck had to have known Landis' view on African Americans, which makes me believe that the story is not true.

[mrakbaseball]

The 2008 Mariners are poised to become founding members of the prestigious 100/100 club. 100+ million payroll and 100 losses. Absolutely disgusting. The 2008 Seattle Mariners are the most incompetent organization in pro sports. No other contenders need apply.

The 2001 M's had obvious flaws in their rotation. The left side of the infield was soft offensively. The left field platoon though solid was easily shut down by October pitching. Wilson was an automatic out.

[zahavasdad]

How about the Giants

They leave the biggest Market for the 10th Biggest Market, And they could have had a FREE Stadium (Shea Stadium was theirs for the taking , once the Dodgers left)

They have not won a WS Since 1954 and have only been in it 3 times since.

Their attendence is lower than the Mets, They Sign Barry Zito, They Sign Barry Bonds . They have allowed Balco to operate out of their lockeroom

[mrakbaseball]

Giants have become a joke. Not as bad as Seattle. At least Pac Bell/ SBC/ AT&T Park was privately financed. Seattle a complete disaster. Vidro is their clean up hitter today. Awful.

[G.Costanza]

I agree the worst has got to be SEATTLE.... All they had to do was make one or two moves around 2002 2003 and they refused to shell out any money.....Then they could've signed Vlad on the cheap but choose not to... then when it was to late they throw assonine contracts at Adrian Beltre off a carreer year, and Richie Sexson of all people, who has turned out to be a complete disaster. And this year they give Jojima a dumb contract. If your a seatle fan I'd expect Berdard to leave after next year and Adam Jones to become a huge star......THEY HAVE GOT TO GET RID OF BAVASI.

[Wade8813]

Incompetence is different than being the worst. The Mariners might be the worst this year, but when you ask which organization is the most incompetent, that implies more long term. And we aren't even contenders long-term.

Also, part of the reason we're on pace to be part of the 100/100 club you mentioned is because of the increase in salaries. A while ago, no teams had $100+ million payrolls. Yes, it's meaningful, but not as big of a deal.

The 2001 M's had obvious flaws in their rotation. The left side of the infield was soft offensively. The left field platoon though solid was easily shut down by October pitching. Wilson was an automatic out. Again, those flaws in the rotation aren't so obvious to me.

Also, I think you're nitpicking when you critique the M's by saying the left side of the infield was soft offensively. Who cares, if the rest of the offense makes up for it? You could have the best hitting team in the history of baseball, and still have a weak left side of the infield. And nobody would care. In fact, the 1927 Yankees' left side of the IF was somewhat similar in hitting to the 2001 M's.

The LF platoon being shut down in October may be legitimate, but we have too small of a sample size to tell. Did that platoon have problems against the Indians and Yanks during the regular season? (I honestly don't know). If not, what makes October that much different?

Wilson, while not a great hitter, wasn't that bad. And again, it's not that big of a deal.

[mrakbaseball]

Sele and Abbott were major flaws. The regular season isn't October. Pitching staffs are reduced. David Bell is the reason the M's went after Nevin, and eventually traded for Cirillo. Carlos Guillen circa 2001 was not even close to the player he became for Detroit. McLemore though a solid player, was not a regular for a reason. As for Dan Wilson he was awful in the post season. Look at the #'s He lost at bats in 2000 to Joe Oliver, and Tom Lampkin the next year. 2 guys who aren't exactly Piazza. Javier didn't scare anyone and at 37, '01 was his last hurrah. Al Martin, Mclemore and even Buhner saw time in left. Buhner at that point was a shell of his former self.
Back to 2008, what is left to say? Unless Lincoln and Armstrong leave expect more of the same. Can't believe there were 32,000 there Wednesday. Bavasi is gone. Just be glad he only collects paychecks from Seattle. 4 last place finishes in 5 years. No way Bedard re-signs here.

[baseball junkie]

The most incompetent organization in baseball has to be the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Does everybody remember the article in The Onion about PNC Park threatening to move to another city if the Pirates didn't field a better team: classic.

[Wade8813]

Sele and Abbott were major flaws. The regular season isn't October. Pitching staffs are reduced. David Bell is the reason the M's went after Nevin, and eventually traded for Cirillo. Carlos Guillen circa 2001 was not even close to the player he became for Detroit. McLemore though a solid player, was not a regular for a reason. As for Dan Wilson he was awful in the post season. Look at the #'s He lost at bats in 2000 to Joe Oliver, and Tom Lampkin the next year. 2 guys who aren't exactly Piazza. Javier didn't scare anyone and at 37, '01 was his last hurrah. Al Martin, Mclemore and even Buhner saw time in left. Buhner at that point was a shell of his former self.
1. Sele wasn't amazing, but he was fairly good. A 116 ERA+, 1.24 WHIP, and more than 200 IP isn't a weakness.

2. Abbott was less than stellar, but wasn't horrible.

3. I understand that pitching staffs are (sort of) reduced in October. But the pitchers that you do face are still the same pitchers they were earlier in the year.

4. I understand that Bell and Guillen weren't that great. But so what? Dugan and Koenig from the 1927 Yankees put up similar stats. Look at how the team hitting was as a whole. We put up .288/.360/.445, with a 118 OPS+. Those are pretty good team numbers.

5. McLemore wasn't a starter, but he still played in 125 games and got over 400 AB (which is actually more than our "starter", Al Martin.

Back to 2008, what is left to say? Unless Lincoln and Armstrong leave expect more of the same. Can't believe there were 32,000 there Wednesday. Bavasi is gone. Just be glad he only collects paychecks from Seattle. 4 last place finishes in 5 years. No way Bedard re-signs here. I don't disagree, this is horrible. But nowhere NEAR as bad as some other teams.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that I agreed with you about 2001. So what? The other teams I mentioned (Nats, Pirates, etc) are still significantly worse.

[steveironcity]

Ive always wondered why a team who hasnt won the World Series in 100 years, or even a Pennant in 63 years, never makes these lists... Oh I forgot. They are the loveable losers.

[mrakbaseball]

1. Sele wasn't amazing, but he was fairly good. A 116 ERA+, 1.24 WHIP, and more than 200 IP isn't a weakness.

2. Abbott was less than stellar, but wasn't horrible.

3. I understand that pitching staffs are (sort of) reduced in October. But the pitchers that you do face are still the same pitchers they were earlier in the year.

4. I understand that Bell and Guillen weren't that great. But so what? Dugan and Koenig from the 1927 Yankees put up similar stats. Look at how the team hitting was as a whole. We put up .288/.360/.445, with a 118 OPS+. Those are pretty good team numbers.

5. McLemore wasn't a starter, but he still played in 125 games and got over 400 AB (which is actually more than our "starter", Al Martin.

I don't disagree, this is horrible. But nowhere NEAR as bad as some other teams.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that I agreed with you about 2001. So what? The other teams I mentioned (Nats, Pirates, etc) are still significantly worse.
1. Sele was not a playoff performer. He was bad with Texas and bad with Seattle.
2. Abbott again a 5th starter. 5th starters doen't exist come October.
3. Again, 5th starters and on some occasions 4th starters disapear from playoff rosters.
4. You bring up the '27 Yankees, who were the '01 versions of Ruth and Gehrig?
5. I liked McLemore, he's tons better than Bloomquist. But his 2000 struggles meant the signing of Boone. Roids or not he had a great regular season. MIA against both Cleveland and New York.

Nobody has expected Pittsburgh to do anything since the Bonds era. When you have a GM sign aging mediocre journeymen to long term contracts, ie. Batista, Washburn, Silva. When you have a talent deprived roster with a bloated payroll. Give out a contract extension to a 32 year old catcher while Clement gets 15 games to do something, you're incompetent. They wasted another 1st round draft pick on a reliever. There are just so many things wrong with Seattle. Expect a sweep against Boston this weekend.

[Wade8813]

1. Sele was not a playoff performer. He was bad with Texas and bad with Seattle.
2. Abbott again a 5th starter. 5th starters doen't exist come October.
3. Again, 5th starters and on some occasions 4th starters disapear from playoff rosters.
4. You bring up the '27 Yankees, who were the '01 versions of Ruth and Gehrig?
5. I liked McLemore, he's tons better than Bloomquist. But his 2000 struggles meant the signing of Boone. Roids or not he had a great regular season. MIA against both Cleveland and New York. You seem to place FAR more emphasis on playoffs than I do. The thing is, if you do poorly in the regular season, it doesn't matter how good you are in the playoffs. Also, it's often a really small sample size. Sele pitched less than 40 IP in the playoffs in his career. It's too little data to make much of a conclusion.

4. You bring up the '27 Yankees, who were the '01 versions of Ruth and Gehrig? I'm not saying we had anything close to Ruth or Gehrig. My point was that you have to look at all of the hitting on a team, not just the bottom of the lineup. And if you look at all of the Mariners' hitting in '01, we were a good team.

Nobody has expected Pittsburgh to do anything since the Bonds era. When you have a GM sign aging mediocre journeymen to long term contracts, ie. Batista, Washburn, Silva. When you have a talent deprived roster with a bloated payroll. Give out a contract extension to a 32 year old catcher while Clement gets 15 games to do something, you're incompetent. They wasted another 1st round draft pick on a reliever. There are just so many things wrong with Seattle. Expect a sweep against Boston this weekend. Nobody's expected much from Pittsburgh because they're that bad. Having low expectations doesn't make you more competent, it just means people expect you to be incompetent.

[mrakbaseball]

The '01 regular season was great, however when you go out with a whimper, it definitely minimalizes the accomplishment. How can you play down the post season?Like the '95-'96 Bulls "72-10 don't mean a thing without the ring.". That also applies to 116 wins.

[Wade8813]

The '01 regular season was great, however when you go out with a whimper, it definitely minimalizes the accomplishment. How can you play down the post season?Like the '95-'96 Bulls "72-10 don't mean a thing without the ring.". That also applies to 116 wins. From a perspective of a fan, or a player/coach/etc, the playoffs are huge. But from a statistical perspective, they're too small of a sample size. The playoffs matter from an emotional perspective, but not as much from an analytical one (they still matter, just not as much).

[mrakbaseball]

Bill Bavasi the worst GM in baseball. His closest competitor might be Sabean, however Bavasi is the worst. Can you spell nepotism?

[NineWorldSeries]

Ive always wondered why a team who hasnt won the World Series in 100 years, or even a Pennant in 63 years, never makes these lists... Oh I forgot. They are the loveable losers.

Well said! :applaud:

You forgot about blaming all of their woes, not on incompetence, but on a freakin' GOAT !!!

[Wade8813]

You forgot about blaming all of their woes, not on incompetence, but on a freakin' GOAT !!! I skipped the Cubs because they have four 85+ win seasons since 2000. Not great by any means, but not nearly as bad as the teams I did mention.

Bill Bavasi the worst GM in baseball. His closest competitor might be Sabean, however Bavasi is the worst. Can you spell nepotism? I don't know enough about all the GMs to agree or disagree with that. But I wouldn't be surprised if he is... :ughh

[Erik Bedard]

I'd rate Sabean a little below Bavasi. At least the Mariners have a good farm system (or did, before they dealt Tillman and Jones).

[mrakbaseball]

I'd rate Sabean a little below Bavasi. At least the Mariners have a good farm system (or did, before they dealt Tillman and Jones).

no Bavasi is awful. Sabean actually reached the World Series. Bavasi has never sniffed the postseason. Erik Bedard the brilliant 5 for 1 "Ace" described himself as a 6 inning pitcher. Can Bavasi resign already. Save what little face he has. Bavasi has zero accountability.

[Erik Bedard]

Just wait on Bedard. Through 11 starts last year, he was not much better than he's been this year. He usually catches fire around late June and then gets unhittable for a while. And he's a seven-inning pitcher for good reason. A strikeout pitcher with stuff as filthy as his can't work too long, since he uses more effort and throws more pitches than an average pitcher.

It's funny, though. Back in the winter, I said that I didn't want Sherrill or Tillman at all. Now look what they're doing.

Sabean had Barry. Without him, the Giants wouldn't have even made the playoffs. Bavasi hasn't had anything close to that. Indeed, nobody has. So you really can't penalize Bavasi for not having the greatest player of all time.

[mrakbaseball]

[QUOTE=Erik Bedard;1216787]Just wait on Bedard. Through 11 starts last year, he was not much better than he's been this year. He usually catches fire around late June and then gets unhittable for a while. And he's a seven-inning pitcher for good reason. A strikeout pitcher with stuff as filthy as his can't work too long, since he uses more effort and throws more pitches than an average pitcher.

It's funny, though. Back in the winter, I said that I didn't want Sherrill or Tillman at all. Now look what they're doing.
I will never defend Bavasi. He has no business collecting paychecks from an MLB team. He is done. Bedard isn't a 7 inning pitcher. He said himself Saturday that he is a 6 inning pitcher. His last 2 starts he hasn't thrown 100 pitches. He blamed the hot weather in Boston on why he only lasted 5 innings and 97 pitches. It was 60 degrees yesterday in Seattle. He threw 99 pitches in 6 innings against a soft Nationals lineup. The M's need a new GM to explore trading Bedard. MLB teams can't afford to wait till late June for their "ace" to "catch fire". Bedard's velocity is down. He has never thrown 200 innings and has only started as much as 30 games once. Another brilliant deal by the "solution" Bavasi.

[mrakbaseball]

Bedard is not a 7 inning pitcher but a 6 inning pitcher. He runs out of gas prior to reaching 100 pitches regardless if it is 99 degrees or 59. M's need Bavasi out of there so they can rebuild in earnest. Bavasi is absolute poison. What the heck was Mclaren doing all the time he was on Piniella's staff. He has no business running a team. How does the thought of playing Reed at first while keeping lead footed Ibanez in left enter his mind? Ibanez has 130 games at first Reed has zero.

[mrakbaseball]

Any team with both Miguel Cairo and Willie Bloomquist in the starting lineup is incompetent. Same with giving Washburn 38 mil when his 2nd highest offer was 14. Fire Bavasi already.

[mrakbaseball]

Bavasi was finally fired by Seattle.
Now the search begins for a competent GM to undue this mess.

[mrakbaseball]

According to Jayson Stark Griffey still wants to finish his career in Seattle. It really looks like the end is near. No bat speed.

[redlegsfan21]

According to Jayson Stark Griffey still wants to finish his career in Seattle. It really looks like the end is near. No bat speed.

Well, Ken Griffey, Jr. wants to play in Cincinnati.

"This is my ninth year here. This is the best team we've had," Griffey said. "My dad won three world championships. With a little luck, we can win one. I'd like to be part of that."

[mrakbaseball]

Seattle has without a doubt the most delusional and incompetent front office of all sports. They had their chance to unload overpaid 5th starter Jarrod Washburn's salary for this year and his 10.35 mil salary for '09 and didn't. The Twins claimed him but Seattle actually wanted players in return. Opportunities to unload bad contracts don't happen everyday and they blew it. The Mariners will owe perennial all stars Jarrod Washburn, Carlos Silva, Miguel Batista, and Kenji Johjima $40 mil in '09.

[FatAngel]

Orioles - far and away.
Angelos achieved the impossible - emptying Camden Yards.
As long as he owns this franchise my team will remain mediocre.
Even if we manage to build a decent team with a core of homegrown players, he will balk at signing really good free agents to fill remaining holes and will have one more braindead justification for it.

[mrakbaseball]

Uh, Seattle is incompetent AND delusional. Baltimore fleeced Seattle in the Bedard deal. They actually think Washburn and his bloated deal could command prospects in return. They actually thought they could find a trade partner for anemic Jose Vidro. Average attendance is less than 30k for the 1st time since '95. They apparently haven't noticed they will finish in last place for the 4th time in 5 seasons. $117 mil payroll, 100+ losses becoming a reality.

[Erik Bedard]

Orioles - far and away.
Angelos achieved the impossible - emptying Camden Yards.
As long as he owns this franchise my team will remain mediocre.
Even if we manage to build a decent team with a core of homegrown players, he will balk at signing really good free agents to fill remaining holes and will have one more braindead justification for it.

We're coming up on the one-year anniversary of this not being true any more. At 11:59 on August 15th, 2007, the Orioles stopped being the most pathetic franchise in baseball. Why? They signed Matt Wieters.

[FatAngel]

Wieters has the potential to be a star. However, my money is down for my O´s remaining mediocre until Angelos either checks out or sells the team. It´s just a matter of time until he will start meddling again - nixing reasonable trades, signing also-ran free agents, not retaining core players, etc.
There´s a good chance that many of our good, young players are gone because of their "outrageous" salary demands when could be finally competitive.
In his thinking: why spend money as long as the O´s draw 2M fans ?
Baltimoreans may stay at home, Red Sox and Yankee fans fill the stands at OPACY anyway.
He and his partners make profit and they won´t reduce the margin - one reason for Angelos staying relatively quiet is the O´s, also relatively, small payroll.
Wait until he´s asked to increase it.

[Erik Bedard]

You're talking in 2006.

Word is that they will throw a boatload of money at Mark Teixeira this offseason. If that's the case, they could be a very serious contender as soon as 2010. Picture a rotation of Guthrie, Chris Tillman, Brian Matusz, David Hernandez, and Brad Bergesen. When your projected #5 starter is 15-3 with a 3.00 ERA and a 1.14 WHIP at age 22 in AA, that's scary. Factor in a lineup featuring Markakis, who is already arguably a top-ten player in the AL, hopefully still Roberts, Adam Jones, Teixeira, and The Savior of the Baltimore Orioles, Matt Wieters, and that's even scarier. If Brandon Snyder keeps hitting the way he is right now, he'll be up then too. And in two years, we may be looking at a hot 20-year-old SS prospect named Garabez Rosa banging down the door the the majors.

I can't wait.

[FatAngel]

I am not talking about 2006. I am talking about 1998 - 2007.
I appeciate your optimism and I really hope you are right - I mean, the O´s are my team !
Yes, they could field a fine team by 2010, but I still see too many ifs.
The main reason I have serious doubts is still the guy called Angelos.
Just to throw out some names:
- Palmeiro, who clearly stated what it would take to remain with the O´s:
replaced by an over-the hill Clark
- Mussina, replaced by the "workhorse" Pat Hentgen
- Alomar, replaced by DeShields
And this combined with bad drafts, orchestrated by the Frog
Sound Desicions ?
All those who left had fine seasons elsewhere.
The Orioles could have remained competitive until our then draftees (assuming Angelos would have stayed away from the draft panel) were ready in 2004
I mean, he´s certainly not the eqivalent to the antichrist, but:
he has no clue how to judge and retain players vital for a team´s success,
and since he owns this franchise he always put business decisions above fielding a competitive team.
And he will meddle again - mentality is the least thing to change - especially for old men who had success with micro-management in other businesses.

And yes, Texeira is from Md.- but I am ready to rope down from the roof of my apartment building dressed as a pink elephant if Texeira signs with the Orioles - no way

[Erik Bedard]

Right, 1998-2007 is not 2008. Angelos has been extremely hands-off since MacPhail took the reins. Tejada, arguably the team's biggest fan favorite, was traded to Houston this past offseason. Bedard, the best Oriole to come through the farm system since Mike Mussina, went to Seattle.

The 2007 draft was great, I'm not sure how anybody can argue that. Wieters and Arrieta were great signings, and this year's has been even better. Avery and Hoes were widely criticized picks, but Hoes has been great thus far in the GCL, and Avery has legit 80 speed on the 20-80 scale. Bobby Bundy has second-round talent, and they got him in the eighth and signed him. That was huge. And reports are that they'll sign Kevin Brady, who also had top-three rounds talent, and drew interest from the Red Sox, but lasted until the 43rd round. There were lots of bad drafts, but recently, they've been a lot better.

[mrakbaseball]

Interim GM Lee Pelekoudas is McLovin circa 2047.

[Mattingly]

$200m/yr and can't beat Anaheim, Texas, Minnesota, and now Kansas City. :o :(

[mrakbaseball]

The Royals signed Willie Bloomquist to a 2 year deal. That sentence alone propels the once proud K.C. organization to the top of the most incompetent list. What are you thinking Dayton Moore? Farnsworth, Jacobs, HoRam and now Bloomquist, yuck.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The '01 regular season was great, however when you go out with a whimper, it definitely minimalizes the accomplishment. How can you play down the post season?Like the '95-'96 Bulls "72-10 don't mean a thing without the ring.". That also applies to 116 wins.

To this day I have no idea how the Mariners lost to the Yankees. :shrug: