Is it OK to reach behind when throwing?

[coachmook]

I have a 9 yr old that plays a lot of outfield and pitches a little. He would like to pitch more. When he throws the ball he reaches very far behind him. If you imagine him playing centerfield when he throws to 2B, he reaches back toward RF. Is this OK. I would like to make sure he is OK before he starts pitching more. Is arm is pretty strong, but I don't want him to do any damage. I hope I was clear on how he throws.

Any help would be great.
Thanks
Mike

[StraightGrain11]

I understand what you're talking about. In terms of "damaging" his arm, it will depend on "how" he is reaching that way. But if it doesn't hurt him when he throws in the field, it shouldn't hurt him when he pitches. What it might do, though, is cause his arm to "get left behind [his body]" when he's pitching, and this can affect both control and velocity.

Do you have a clip of him? Without a seeing him, that's about all I can say.

Hope that helps.

[Postblank]

If his throwing arm elbow is going behind his shoulder line with that throwing action, that's going to be a lot of stress on the front of his shoulder. Anything extra going on in back with the loading action is going to result in mechanical flaws and pain/injury. I'd recommend teaching him to pendulum swing his arm back into a loaded position (imagine if he was standing on the rubber and bringing his arm back toward second base).

Going any further past that is going to hurt him and probably is causing horizontal inconsistency.

[coachmook]

Thank you both very much. I am trying to get a clip of him. If I do, I'll post it.

[CoachHenry]

In addition to the other's words, at times it hurts accuracy. Of course some people with non-conventional throwing motions (or hitting, etc) do very well with it but it is something to watch for. And while he is young you have the opportunity to correct things, if you feel they should be corrected.

[Jake Patterson]

I have a 9 yr old that plays a lot of outfield and pitches a little. He would like to pitch more. When he throws the ball he reaches very far behind him. If you imagine him playing centerfield when he throws to 2B, he reaches back toward RF. Is this OK. I would like to make sure he is OK before he starts pitching more. Is arm is pretty strong, but I don't want him to do any damage. I hope I was clear on how he throws.

Any help would be great.
Thanks
Mike

Mike,
To answer your question - No - this will hurt his arm. If he were pitching I would have the ball face SS not CF or 2B. I would also not teach a 9/ y/o to reach behind the plane of the shoulders.

[StraightGrain11]

Are you talking about something like what Smoltz and Backe are doing here?

I agree, Jake, I would never TEACH anyone to pitch that way. But he is saying he does it "naturally". Now, I also agree with you that it CAN hurt the arm, but it is not certain that it will. I'm just wondering if this is more of a "if ain't broke, don't fix it" type situation. Having said that, I haven't seen his motion, and I once I do, it may need to be fixed.

[azmatsfan]

When my oldest started pitching at 8 I took him to a professional pitching coach for a one time lesson just to make sure his mechanics were good to avoid arm problems. He noticed my son had this same problem. He suggested having him throw with his back to a wall or fence so he wouldn't be able to bring his arm too far back. This broke my son of the habit. I wouldn't have him throw full speed at first until you're sure he won't bang his throwing hand on the fence.

[coachmook]

Straight
It looks a little bit like this, but worse. His entire arm is back there for a while. It hurts my arm just watching him throw(of course everything hurts my arm after all the throwing over the years).

azmatsfan
I have tried this a little and was worried about him running his hand directly into the fence(which he did). I think I will continue this, without having him slam his hand into the fence.

Thanks everyone for your help. I am getting a clip of him throwing and batting to see if you all could give me some definitive advice.

Mike

[Dirtberry]

coachmook,


You had better fix this now and get it done because this is one of the hardest mechanics to fix later.

I roll up some newspaper lengthwise and tape it together to make a long soft stick. Stand behind him and ask him to pitch while holding the stick in the path where he takes his arm back. If he takes his arm back around his hip, touch his hand with the stick. He will get immediate feedback. You need to listen to Jake and Postblank on this to prevent any future alignment problems. This also takes continual practice and awareness because of reversion.

[StraightGrain11]

Straight
It looks a little bit like this, but worse. His entire arm is back there for a while. It hurts my arm just watching him throw(of course everything hurts my arm after all the throwing over the years).


Then his arm is getting left behind his body. Right now, it probably won't hurt him because he's really loose and flexible :crazy. But as he gets older, this will put A LOT of strain on the shoulder muscles, and WILL lead to injury.

It does need to be corrected. The wall/fence drill is a good drill. Another drill I was taught (by a White Sox scout) was to take a dish towel, hold it at the ends and go thru your throwing motion. Since your hands can only separate the length of the towel, his arm will never be able to get that far back. If he's "leaving his [throwing] arm behind", then it will end up getting "pulled thru" by his glove arm and won't feel right (won't hurt him, but it will feel awkward enough to him that he'll know he needs to change something). Might sound weird, but it does work.

[Deemax]

When he throws the ball he reaches very far behind him. If you imagine him playing centerfield when he throws to 2B, he reaches back toward RF. Is this OK.

It was OK for these guys...

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/nol.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/nola.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/nolaf.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/nolad.jpg

[Jake Patterson]

Dee,
Comparing an athletically toned pro at the pinnacle of his game to a developing child confuses more than helps. If a prepubescent child throws like they above they will undoubtedly develop injuries.
Jake

[coachmook]

Deemax
He actually looks a lot like Ryan in the picture you showed. I didn't notice this until this year. He used to short arm his throws(from the ear) and I kept telling him to reach back. I think this may be where he started reaching behind him along with reaching back. He also has complained this year about his lack of accuracy.
I am hoping changing this motion will help his accuracy.

Mike

[wrstdude]

Dee,
Comparing an athletically toned pro at the pinnacle of his game to a developing child confuses more than helps. If a prepubescent child throws like they above they will undoubtedly develop injuries.
Jake

Do you think they did NOT do this as children?

[Jake Patterson]

Do you think they did NOT do this as children?They may have, but I would offer many of those who did do not play much beyond LL. Why do you feel that unnecessarily stressing the shoulder and elbow joints is good for a young player?

[SimiBaseball]

Some of the guys on these forums remind me of a father of an 8 year old I coached many years ago. His kid had this same issue (it is called flailing). Rather than let me work with his son, who had what I thought was big potential at 8 years old, this father argued everything with me. He brought me a still photo of some major league pitcher doing this as well. I sarcastically asked the father if we should teach him a slider to go along with the out of control fastball (I wish I could remember who the MLB pitcher was, but I do recall he ended up having TJ surgery). I vowed never to draft this kid again, although it was a non-issue as the dad coached a Mustang team the following year with a like-minded fellow.

Anyhoo, the kid no longer plays now that he is a junior in high school. I understand he had some "issue" with growth plates in his elbow. Mom tells me it was "genetic". Go figure.

[SimiBaseball]

Deemax
He actually looks a lot like Ryan in the picture you showed.
Mike

Keep in mind that this was a picture of Ryan pitching well before his 1975 elbow surgery.

[SimiBaseball]

Are you talking about something like what Smoltz and Backe are doing here?



I wonder if these images are from before or after Smoltz and Backe's Tommy John surgeries.

[wrstdude]

Do you think they did NOT do this as children?

They may have, but I would offer many of those who did do not play much beyond LL. Why do you feel that unnecessarily stressing the shoulder and elbow joints is good for a young player?

If it's not too much trouble, I would like for you to point out where I said the bold section of your quote.

Thanks.

[Jake Patterson]

Anyhoo, the kid no longer plays now that he is a junior in high school. I understand he had some "issue" with growth plates in his elbow. Mom tells me it was "genetic". Go figure.
I wish I had a nickle for everytime I've seen and heard this story.

The problem is us coaches who study the game daily and been around it for more than a few decades. We just don't get it (Sarcasm intended)

[mightylakers]

They may have, but I would offer many of those who did do not play much beyond LL. Why do you feel that unnecessarily stressing the shoulder and elbow joints is good for a young player?

Do you think swim butterfly also creates stresses on shoulder and elbow joints?

[shake-n-bake]

My son (10) has converted to a sidearm delivery this year, so he reaches behind him quite a lot. I was mostly on board with his desire to be a sidearm pitcher. Now, I am 100% sure that this is the right choice for him.

Eckersley's picture doesn't belong with the others. For a sidearm pitcher it is a very natural motion to reach behind them. My son (right handed) pitched over the top in his last ballgame. His friend was a left hand hitter on the other team, and out of courtesy to him he didn't throw pitches that move toward him. That, and I think he missed the added velocity, and the movement on his two-seamer. He pitched a nice game, going 3.2 innings -1 hit, 1 run, 2 BB, and 8 Ks. He complained about some soreness after the game (75 pitches). That was something that I heard on and off the last couple years. That is until this year. Now, he looks very comfortable. He has a natural, almost effortless looking sidearm delivery that thus far has not resulted in any pain whatsoever.

I think there are a few guys on this forum who have some qualified opinions on pitching instruction. Unfortunately, around your kid's league you're not likely to find a pitching instructor that really knows what they're talking about. Even if you do, pitching mechanics can vary widely. My son worked with a former college pitching coach and he was trying to get every kid to throw exactly the same. That didn't make sense to me. Particularly because their size and physical build varied greatly. Hats off to the volunteers that coach Little League, but listen to them instructing the kids on pitching. The kid would have to be a contortionist to do everything they tell them to do. So, now maybe the greatest benefit of being a born again sidearm pitcher is that it silences the coaches, and the dialogue between my boy and I has changed too. He's much more in control of his pitching development.

I'm no expert on pitching mechanics, particularly as they relate to arm injuries. I have done 100's of hours of research on the net and books and my conclusion is that there are nearly as many opinions as there are experts. There are just so many dog-gone variables. My kid throws like an adult, but he's got a kids' body. He's a big kid, but still that concerns me. I worry about him hurting his arm and not being able to pitch in HS or maybe even college. He'd be devastated. He started out in love with baseball, but now he's in love with pitching (and catching). So, we do what I've come to think is the most sensible approach to preventing injury - The moment anything hurts - stop! We work out a lot, but I'm constantly trying to guage where the line is between getting better and too much work. And finally, I take his word about what feels right and what he feels he can realistically develop over all the differing advice he gets.

[Deemax]

Dee,
Comparing an athletically toned pro at the pinnacle of his game to a developing child confuses more than helps. If a prepubescent child throws like they above they will undoubtedly develop injuries.
Jake

I dont agree with your reasoning.

The for above guys are Hall of Famers. Try this same approach in a hitting forum.

Taking away an individuals actions and turning them into "iron mike" mechanics is nonsense IMO. Teaching everyone the same arm action is detrimental to the games style and play.

[Deemax]

Deemax
He actually looks a lot like Ryan in the picture you showed. I didn't notice this until this year. He used to short arm his throws(from the ear) and I kept telling him to reach back. I think this may be where he started reaching behind him along with reaching back. He also has complained this year about his lack of accuracy.
I am hoping changing this motion will help his accuracy.

Mike

You might be trying to fix something thats not broke.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm no expert on pitching mechanics, particularly as they relate to arm injuries. I have done 100's of hours of research on the net and books and my conclusion is that there are nearly as many opinions as there are experts. You may be right about there being many of opinions, but I would offer many of those opinions are from those who have not studied how the prepubescent body works and what damage can occur with improper mechanics. The problem is there is a plethora of opinions from baseball types who confuse what makes an adult successful (not safe) to what is safe to teach youngsters. Don't confuse the freak of nature at the highest levels with the average child. The average child who throws like the freak of nature usually does not go beyond youth ball.

[Jake Patterson]

I dont agree with your reasoning.

The for above guys are Hall of Famers. Try this same approach in a hitting forum.

Taking away an individuals actions and turning them into "iron mike" mechanics is nonsense IMO. Teaching everyone the same arm action is detrimental to the games style and play.I do not suggest teaching everyone the same technique, I am suggesting that you teach what stresses the prepubescent arm the least allowing them the opportunity to play when they get older. Confusing the two only camouflages the real discussion.

As far as using the pro's as examples for teaching hitting and applying it to throwing, I offer this is nonsense as the rotational mechanics of hitting and the stress it places on joints and growth plates is not as injurious to the young body as throwing

[Deemax]

Confusing the two only camouflages the real discussion.

Ok. The real discussion... Is it OK to reach behind you when you throw?

Yes.

[rkbenn]

My 9 y/o does the same thing, but he closes his shoulder and is perfectly aligned with him lead arm, back and his throwing arm. Ultimately you want the arm to drop right behind the rear leg so can disguise his pitches. You probably heard the term, sneeky fast. If the ball is going behind his back, that's a problem. Take video of you son's bullpen work. Can't give you an answer without seeing.

[Chris O'Leary]

Ok. The real discussion... Is it OK to reach behind you when you throw?

Yes.

No.

First, you're mistaking reverse-rotation for taking the hand behind the back.

Second, I'm sitting here watching the Cardinal game listening to Scott Terry talk about how aking his hand behind his shoulder led to three shoulder surgeries. If you watch him in slow motion, you can see that this created a timing problem.

[Deemax]

No.

First, you're mistaking reverse-rotation for taking the hand behind the back.

Second, I'm sitting here watching the Cardinal game listening to Scott Terry talk about how aking his hand behind his shoulder led to three shoulder surgeries. If you watch him in slow motion, you can see that this created a timing problem.

Im not "mistaking" on this stuff chris. I know what reverse rotation is, and I know what I see. In addition, I never claimed reverse rotating to be seperate from the arm going behind the pitcher.

I dont buy into your definition of timing problems.

Throwing a baseball as hard as you are capable of puts your arm at risk. Theres no magic pixie dust that keeps arms safe when airing it out. Train, prepare and compete. To much emphasis is placed on changing pitchers mechanics by people who dont understand them. This game is about feel boys..... Try teaching that. If you can, bottle it up, sell it, and I will get in line to buy it.

[rkbenn]

how can you judge based on a still! analysis video from front to back and side to side to see if indeed throwing behind his back and creating timing problems.

[Jake Patterson]

Throwing a baseball as hard as you are capable of puts your arm at risk. Theres no magic pixie dust that keeps arms safe when airing it out. Train, prepare and compete. To much emphasis is placed on changing pitchers mechanics by people who dont understand them. This game is about feel boys..... Try teaching that. If you can, bottle it up, sell it, and I will get in line to buy it.We get in trouble when we mix what you do for a living to what we do for a living. Our job as coaches is to prepare the player for the next level... on that I am certain we will agree. Too many coaches burn potentially good players out by pushing for short-term gains at long-term expense. There is little a player can do before HS that will have much of an "overall" impact on his potential baseball career. By that I mean, throwing a championship season when he's 11 doesn't matter much in the whole scheme of things, hurting his arm at 11 does. Make sense?

[Dirtberry]

This is the worst of the mechanical flaws in the traditional motion because the shoulder injuries that it produces most times are life time debilitators unlike UCL, broken bones, avulsions, Muscle tears and many others that you can come back from.
The shoulder injuries Like the three types of Labrum tears and rotator cuff injuries seem to END it. I’ve seem many kids hurt their shoulders then recover with no pain and then have some psychological block to go maximum effort with only shoulder injuries. It’s the redirection of the ball to get it to finally move forwardly at high stress that grinds your labrum with the humerus like a MORTAR and PESTLE that does it plus the frontal stress from the arm lag that is all wasted motion just to get the ball up so that it may then go forward.

Fathers, fix this when you see it!!!

[coachmook]

Thanks everyone.
I am already in the process of changing his throwing motion.
I hope it helps to keep his arm healthy and I also think it should help
with his throwing accuracy.
I will try and post a video of his motion this weekend. Then maybe I can post it in a little while when we think it looks better.

Mike

[Jake Patterson]

Good luck Mike.

[rkbenn]

I have a 9 yr old that plays a lot of outfield and pitches a little. He would like to pitch more. When he throws the ball he reaches very far behind him. If you imagine him playing centerfield when he throws to 2B, he reaches back toward RF. Is this OK. I would like to make sure he is OK before he starts pitching more. Is arm is pretty strong, but I don't want him to do any damage. I hope I was clear on how he throws.

Any help would be great.
Thanks
Mike

A pitching coach told me that have the player stand with their back against a wall. That will fix throwing behind the back. But make sur they are closing the front shoulder a bit.

[Deemax]

Thanks everyone.
I am already in the process of changing his throwing motion.
I hope it helps to keep his arm healthy and I also think it should help
with his throwing accuracy.
I will try and post a video of his motion this weekend. Then maybe I can post it in a little while when we think it looks better.

Mike

His delivery may in fact need to be changed, but to do so based on opinions from people who have never seen your son throw is a lil' different.

The advice your getting is based on Mike Marshalls research and teachings. MM offen references his amazing CY year and education as his credentials (great credentials by the way).

What Mike Marshall did mechanically versus what he teaches are not one in the same.

I support the full Mike Marshall delivery!.... but its the early 70's version.

-Good luck, I hope you find what your looking for.