Help Bat Speed Needed!

[bbb3601]

My 10 y/o is having what I think is bat speed issues. We have looked at grip stance swing etc etc. He just isn't through the zone quick enough. Is their any drills to help address this problem? His bat isn't too heavy I already tried that. He has this problem even with bp.

[FiveFrameSwing]

My 10 y/o is having what I think is bat speed issues. We have looked at grip stance swing etc etc. He just isn't through the zone quick enough. Is their any drills to help address this problem? His bat isn't too heavy I already tried that. He has this problem even with bp.

Many confuse bat speed with efficiency. By this I mean that lack of speed isn't the issue so much as an incorrect barrel path to the ball. If you post a clip here then we have some posters that can comment intelligently on his swing efficiency and likely give pointers for further progress.

If you truly are interested in increasing bat speed then google overload/underload training and see what you find.

Also consider Jake's recent comment regarding a hitter's mentality. They think the pitch will be a strike until proven otherwise. To do the opposite, and determine if the ball is a strike during the pitch is too slow. When working with young kids I tell them it's either "yes, yes, no" or "yes, yes, go". In other words ... "yes it is a strike, yes it is a strike, no/go". The "no/go" decision is made after the forward weight shift (which ideally occurs during the launch) and during the initial portion of the swing, but prior to full commitment.

[virg]

Does he stride with every pitch, or only upon deciding to cut?
If the latter, he'll look slow. A swing clip would show only the distortion of a late forced swing. Check it out before making big changes.

The menu carried over from playground slowpitch is:
Watch- Decide- Stride- Swing.
The faster menu is:
Stride & Watch- Decide & Swing (at strikes) pass on the others.
This separates stride and swing and relieves rushing.
Stride with the pitcher, every pitch. Starting point; your foot lands with his. Then adjust later, incrementally, so it fits your swing.

[Swing Coach]

Lack of bat spped with my 10-year-olds is almost always too long of a swing, caused by getting the hands too far away from the body. Have your son stand close (2-3 feet) to a net/fence and swing the bat without hitting it. This will force his hands to stay in. My guess is, you will see a tremendous increase in bat speed.

[Nater44]

The Swing Coach has some great advice. Yes, poor hand path away from the body would be the cause. There are multiple ways of solving this, but a solid understanding of the below are necessary to develop as well.

1. The problem
2. Identifying the problem for future correction

I have recored a clip on YouTube (http://youtube.com/watch?v=OD0EM_vtMxw)you can access to help some on understanding a good hand path and extension.

[Mark H]

Lack of bat spped with my 10-year-olds is almost always too long of a swing, caused by getting the hands too far away from the body. Have your son stand close (2-3 feet) to a net/fence and swing the bat without hitting it. This will force his hands to stay in. My guess is, you will see a tremendous increase in bat speed.

Don't care for the fence drill myself. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=x05jxizas2.tiger_s?p=18&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[Mark H]

The Swing Coach has some great advice. Yes, poor hand path away from the body would be the cause. There are multiple ways of solving this, but a solid understanding of the below are necessary to develop as well.

1. The problem
2. Identifying the problem for future correction

I have recored a clip on YouTube (http://youtube.com/watch?v=OD0EM_vtMxw)you can access to help some on understanding a good hand path and extension.


That clip is not what I see elite hitters doing and is a recipe for slow bathead speed through the zone but it will keep your bathead in the zone longer.

[bbb3601]

Keeping his hands in all of the time has been an issue. I think I will try the fence drill. Is this the only recommended drill? I have posted video in the past and the hands seem to be his weak point. In the past we have tried laying his bat flat just above the shoulder? As always thank you all for the help!

[Mark H]

Did you look at and understand the problems with the fence drill shown in the video clip? Almost everyone understands the need for a connected somewhat circular hand path and most of the time this is not what the fence drill promotes. Whatever the problem is you are trying to fix, IMO, the fence drill, if it fixes it, will do so by creating another problem like this goofy swing demo. http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html

The fence drill CAN be done, with close educated supervision, in a manner that doesn't promote disconnection but it doesn't happen often IME.

I suggest making sure you understand everything on this link. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis

I further suggest signing up on Englishbey's webite. The video analysis part is on the free public side and you could learn quite a bit there.

[korp]

When doing soft toss you can throw the ball quicker so it gets in on the hands and forces them to be quick to the ball. You can also speed up a pitching machine and just work on better timing, quicker swing ect.

[Nater44]

That clip is not what I see elite hitters doing and is a recipe for slow bathead speed through the zone but it will keep your bathead in the zone longer.

I don't wish to engage in a long debate it's not the intent of the article, though I would encourage you to look at some videos of elite hitters and watch how they enter and finish through the zone. This technique for example was taught to me while I was in the Seattle Mariners Organization. Some modifications may be needed with fastballs reaching mid 90's. But by that time in the career those changes should be easier.

[Swing Coach]

The fence drill works if done correctly. Have the player imagine he is hitting the ball up the middle..and don't have him stand super close to the fence, especially at the beginning. One key to this drill and others, is to make sure your son's elbow is tucked in to his side...this will help with the drill and give him the feel of his hands staying in.

Nater..I have to agree with Mark....that clip is not at all what happens in any high-level swing. The hands coming down through the zone ahead of rotation is not good technique. You will not find one mlb hitter (I have seen many in slow-mo or freeze frame) who leads with his hands like this. I wouldn't use that clip as a good example for the Dad. It will actually slow his barrel speed down.

SC

[Nater44]

The fence drill works if done correctly. Have the player imagine he is hitting the ball up the middle..and don't have him stand super close to the fence, especially at the beginning. One key to this drill and others, is to make sure your son's elbow is tucked in to his side...this will help with the drill and give him the feel of his hands staying in.

Nater..I have to agree with Mark....that clip is not at all what happens in any high-level swing. The hands coming down through the zone ahead of rotation is not good technique. You will not find one mlb hitter (I have seen many in slow-mo or freeze frame) who leads with his hands like this. I wouldn't use that clip as a good example for the Dad. It will actually slow his barrel speed down.

SC

I fully agree with you in that the hands should never lead rotation. However, maybe I should have clarified the intent of the clip. The focus of the clip was on the extension through the zone, therefore we set the lower half differently to avoid distraction in that first close up. The idea that the hands need to remain close to the body and extend out in front of the plate is the main point.

The other clips we've filmed demonstration the other lower-half of the mechanics. As does this article (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Baseball-Swing----Rotational-Hitting-Explained&id=1192524) I've recently written.

[Twitch5]

The other clips we've filmed demonstration the other lower-half of the mechanics.

What do others think about the "Front Side Hitting Drill" that is also shown on Nater44's YouTube site. I don't think I've ever seen the drill presented this way, but it does seem like it would be beneficial.

Twitch5

[randy]

it is excellent-my son's instructor has had him doing it for a couple of years.

[Nater44]

it is excellent-my son's instructor has had him doing it for a couple of years.

It's a good one, though you have to be careful not to allow the hitter to swing at full speed at first. Takes a little bit for younger hitters to begin to move the back side first. I was also doing some editing on YouTube and goofed. The video has been re-uploaded and should be up soon.

[bbb3601]

For what it is worth we did try the fence drill today and did have some success. Remember he is only 10 so alot of what I read on here is over my head and way over his. We did it for about 10 minutes started out with some dry swings and then I threw a bucket to him softly. As far as if the drill is right or wrong I truly don't know I don't have the expertise to say, but for my 10 y/o old it showed him or proved dad was right. If he keeps his hands closer he hits the ball very very good. After the drill I pitched bp and the results were day and night from before. Thank you for the drill and all of your help! As far as timing he has always been ok at increased speeds...he was just all hands and I didn't have a way to prove or show him, and the fence idea was something he could understand.

[tom.guerry]

"extension through the zone" is not very directly related to adjusting the swing to create an optimal impact zone.

this is the basic shirt to/long through fallacy with the long through being the idea that extension keeps the bathead in the zone longer.

This kind of extension if created actually will force bathead deceleration which greatly increase timing error, more so than any possible gain in likelihood of solid contact from bathead boing in contact zone longer.

the long through idea is only effective for bunting/placement hitting.

[Nater44]

I feel like I just got out of science class...


I guess the bottom line is without the lingo is simply if given the choice between keeping bat in the zone longer versus having the bat exit the zone quicker, most hitters would pick the former.

[Go Cardinals]

also impulse, longer you have contact with the ball, the farther it will go.

[FiveFrameSwing]

also impulse, longer you have contact with the ball, the farther it will go.

Is it really true that the longer the bat is in contact with the ball the further it will go?

I ask, because I don't believe hitting is so much about muscling through the ball, but more about hitting it with a fast bat.

If you consider that the bat is in contact with the balll for typically 1/2000 of a second, then there isn't enough time for one to receive feedback and muscle through the ball. By the time the muscling process would be complete the ball would be long gone.

From my perspective, hitting is more about making contact with the ball squarely, with a fast bat.

The faster the bat, the further one will drive the ball. The faster the bat, the shorter the contact time between the bat and ball.

So I ask, if it is true that hitting the ball with a faster bat drives the ball further, then wouldn't the bat be in contact with the ball for less time?

[Jesse]

If you don't want the physics lesson, just read the last three paragraphs:

I don't claim to fully understand all the physics involved, but this is essentially a highly complex collision problem. Collisions involve the transfer of kinetic energy (kinetic energy = the energy of motion) from one object to another. There are two basic types of collisions, elastic and inelastic. Elastic refers to a collision where there is no loss of kinetic energy. Inelastic refers to a collision where all of the kinetic energy is converted to some other type of energy (heat, for instance) and all motion ceases as a result of the collision. Perfectly elastic or inelastic collisions are rare in nature, so generally speaking, an elastic collision is one that produces motion, and an inelastic collision is one that stops motion.

Examples of elastic collisions could be a basketball striking a hardwood floor, or a baseball stiking a moving bat. Inelastic would be an arrow lodging into a tree, or a fly ball sticking into an outfielder's glove.

There are numerous variables at play here. The speed, mass, density of the objects, angle of impact, etc. The amount that each object deforms as a result of the impact is important, as deforming objects results in energy loss.

Further compounding the issue is the "trampoline effect" of an aluminum bat. The bat actually deforms inward from the impact with the ball, then "springs" back out, magnifying the amount of kinetic energy transferred from the bat to the ball. Simultaneously, there's a similar "trampoline effect" that occurs in the ball, which also deforms slightly and then "springs" back out. This is common in lots of sports, basketball, football, soccer, golf, etc. The ball is designed to rebound when struck. The easier the ball is to deform, the less energy it takes to deform it, and you will get a reduced rebound effect. That's why a basketball won't bounce as high when it's underinflated, and if it's overinflated it will bounce too high and be difficult to control. Similarly, if a golf ball was easier to deform it wouldn't travel as far when struck.

All that aside, what it comes down to is the angle of impact. The idea is to take all the kinetic energy of the ball and the bat, and transfer as much of that kinetic energy as possible back into the ball going the other way. What best accomplishes this? A head on collision results in a much higher degree of energy transfer than a glancing collision. The closer to "head on" you hit the ball, the more kinetic energy you transfer to it from the bat. If you hit a glancing blow, the ball retains more of its own kinetic energy while absorbing less from the bat. Since the ball's kinetic energy is moving in a way opposite where you want it to go, this typically results in a less desirable outcome.

All other things being equal (bat speed, velocity of the ball, material of the bat and ball, etc.) the angle of impact is the variable that most directly affects the amount of time the ball is in contact with the bat. Hitting it head on results in a longer time of contact than a glancing blow, because for that brief moment right after the initial impact, the ball and bat are both traveling in the exact same direction, while simultaneously deforming into one another to create a dual trampoline effect. This allows for a more complete transfer of kinetic energy and results in the ball going further.

It's not the bat speed that's important here, it's the angle at which you apply that bat speed to the ball. It's a given that you usually want higher bat speed, since velocity is half of the momentum equation (the other half is mass). So you don't want to sacrifice too much mass to gain bat speed - you need to find a happy medium.

[gameth]

Don't care for the fence drill myself. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=x05jxizas2.tiger_s?p=18&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

First it should be about 15 inches from fence not 24-36. That is way to far.

Second, lets not compare a drill used to keep the hands "inside the ball" so to speak and practice not casting with a clip of a major leaguer taking a cut at an actual pitch that also happens to be OUTSIDE!

Give me a break people!

We can post any drill in a clip and compare it to the actual game situation and say its not the same.

It's a freakin drill and it does help with the problem its designed to help with.

Which I might add IS NOT HITTING THE OUTSIDE PITCH!:crazy

[Mark H]

I feel like I just got out of science class...


I guess the bottom line is without the lingo is simply if given the choice between keeping bat in the zone longer versus having the bat exit the zone quicker, most hitters would pick the former.

Tom is correct this time. The choice is not as you state it. The choice is having the bathead in the zone longer with slower bathead speed or the opposite. pushing the hands forward as the bathead moves through the zone WILL slow bathead speed sacrificing power. That much is not arguable. Whether you wish to sacrifice power for contact is an arguable point.

[Mark H]

First it should be about 15 inches from fence not 24-36. That is way to far.

Second, lets not compare a drill used to keep the hands "inside the ball" so to speak and practice not casting with a clip of a major leaguer taking a cut at an actual pitch that also happens to be OUTSIDE!

Give me a break people!

We can post any drill in a clip and compare it to the actual game situation and say its not the same.

It's a freakin drill and it does help with the problem its designed to help with.

Which I might add IS NOT HITTING THE OUTSIDE PITCH!:crazy

My point is, the fence drill most often promotes a push disconnection of the hands and bat from shoulder rotation. On an inside pitch the hands often do pull across/hook but it's late, not early as promoted by the fence drill.

[Nater44]

Tom is correct this time. The choice is not as you state it. The choice is having the bathead in the zone longer with slower bathead speed or the opposite. pushing the hands forward as the bathead moves through the zone WILL slow bathead speed sacrificing power. That much is not arguable. Whether you wish to sacrifice power for contact is an arguable point.

Mark, not sure you understand what I'm saying. If a hitter's hands enter the zone far away from his body, he will be cutting across the strike zone (hand-casting, long swing, etc). If a hitter keeps his hands close to his body, he has a greater potential to arrive with the barrel on the ball because his momentum is moving in the same direction of the ball.

[Dirtberry]

The best drill for this age group is to actually make them feel their hands driving resistance at just before and at contact then you will see a great change in their bat speed.

I get much better results with the fence drill if the fence is in the back and not in the front of the face. I make my live batters go with a heavy net directly behind and close to the batter.

[StraightGrain11]

The best drill for this age group is to actually make them feel their hands driving resistance at just before and at contact then you will see a great change in their bat speed.


Are you talking about something like a "tire drill"?

[Dirtberry]

StraightGrain11,

I do a drill I call “The batters press” it’s done with a bat a batter and a helper.
I explained it in another thread; it is truly an instant results difference maker for
batters especially young ones.

I no longer use the tire drill but do not discourage it.

[ChinMusic]

The problem with the fence drill is that there are no real consequences for the player's actions if they hit the fence.

I've worked drills with 10+ players where a teammate stands approx 24" from the player swinging and the same drill is conducted with the swinging player keeping their hands inside their swing. A disconnected swing obviously yields harsh results -- but trust me this works.

Have i had a couple parent complain? Yes, as it's a radical technique and it's clearly not for everyone. One parent told me that his kid broke a rib from the drill -- but we were using a fungo during the drill so i highly doubt it.

Bottom line is that the kids definitely had a higher level of concentration when they knew a mistake could cost their teammate a swing to the ribs - and the kids know they are all better hitters for this approach.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I get much better results with the fence drill if the fence is in the back and not in the front of the face. I make my live batters go with a heavy net directly behind and close to the batter.

According to Tom Emanski, the way to succeed at this drill is to radially deviate the wrist of the lead-arm. Try it, it works.

[Mark H]

Mark, not sure you understand what I'm saying. If a hitter's hands enter the zone far away from his body, he will be cutting across the strike zone (hand-casting, long swing, etc). If a hitter keeps his hands close to his body, he has a greater potential to arrive with the barrel on the ball because his momentum is moving in the same direction of the ball.

I'm not communicating well. What I'm saying is the hand path doesn't push forward toward the pitcher once the bat head gets in the zone to keep the bat head in the zone longer. Not on elite middle of the order hitters anyway.