Son hitting well, but always grounding out...

[jbolt_2000]

Hi All!

My son is 10 and is hitting fairly well. He could be better - I think his mechanics are strong, but some things I've noticed is that he lacks confidence, he's looking for the walk more than the hit, and possibly just looking for that "perfect" pitch to swing at. Because of all this he tends to walk quite a bit. He doesn't strikeout very often, but when he does its because he is looking at those strikes called on the outside or inside corners.

All those pieces I am working with him to fix. I believe it is mostly mental in that regard.

Now, when he does hit the ball, it is almost always straight to the pitcher or ShortStop. He has a few few hits this year but has made contact several times, but is thrown out. He can't seem to get away from hitting grounders or liners to the middle infield.

Is this a mechanical thing, mental thing, both? What are some areas I can look for in his swing? Like I said, I think the mechanics are there (can always improve), but I can't figure out why he grounds out all the time.

Any ideas?

And as for video of him, I am working on getting some footage of him and getting it on the computer. I am just not savvy in that area and am still learning. Any ideas outside of actually seeing him swing?

[wogdoggy]

Hi All!

My son is 10 and is hitting fairly well. He could be better - I think his mechanics are strong, but some things I've noticed is that he lacks confidence, he's looking for the walk more than the hit, and possibly just looking for that "perfect" pitch to swing at. Because of all this he tends to walk quite a bit. He doesn't strikeout very often, but when he does its because he is looking at those strikes called on the outside or inside corners.

All those pieces I am working with him to fix. I believe it is mostly mental in that regard.

Now, when he does hit the ball, it is almost always straight to the pitcher or ShortStop. He has a few few hits this year but has made contact several times, but is thrown out. He can't seem to get away from hitting grounders or liners to the middle infield.

Is this a mechanical thing, mental thing, both? What are some areas I can look for in his swing? Like I said, I think the mechanics are there (can always improve), but I can't figure out why he grounds out all the time.

Any ideas?

And as for video of him, I am working on getting some footage of him and getting it on the computer. I am just not savvy in that area and am still learning. Any ideas outside of actually seeing him swing?

get the vids up here and you'll probably get the "fix" that will work for your kid from many of our knowlegable posters ..BUT when my kid pounds balls into the ground its usually cause of a horizontal bat.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Hi All!

My son is 10 and is hitting fairly well. He could be better - I think his mechanics are strong, but some things I've noticed is that he lacks confidence, he's looking for the walk more than the hit, and possibly just looking for that "perfect" pitch to swing at. Because of all this he tends to walk quite a bit. He doesn't strikeout very often, but when he does its because he is looking at those strikes called on the outside or inside corners.

All those pieces I am working with him to fix. I believe it is mostly mental in that regard.

Now, when he does hit the ball, it is almost always straight to the pitcher or ShortStop. He has a few few hits this year but has made contact several times, but is thrown out. He can't seem to get away from hitting grounders or liners to the middle infield.

Is this a mechanical thing, mental thing, both? What are some areas I can look for in his swing? Like I said, I think the mechanics are there (can always improve), but I can't figure out why he grounds out all the time.

Any ideas?

And as for video of him, I am working on getting some footage of him and getting it on the computer. I am just not savvy in that area and am still learning. Any ideas outside of actually seeing him swing?

As an FYI, I encourage my hitters to take a "walk" whenever possible.

Post a video of your kid hitting and you'll likely receive some healthy feedback.

[Three A's baseball]

[QUOTE=FiveFrameSwing;1196916]As an FYI, I encourage my hitters to take a "walk" whenever possible.

expand on this...

[FiveFrameSwing]

[QUOTE=FiveFrameSwing;1196916]As an FYI, I encourage my hitters to take a "walk" whenever possible.

expand on this...

For my players I stress OBP over BA.

Consider that the most important number in baseball is "3", as in 3 outs per inning.

Unlike in Basketball, Soccer, etc., there is no time clock. Instead we are faced with trying to accomplish as much as we can before three outs are recorded.

When you obtain a "walk", your BA remains uneffected, but your OBP improves.

Every time you put the ball in play you risk the potential of an "out".

When you take a "walk" there is no possibility of an "out".

There are multiple studies that conclude that OBP is better correlated to scoring runs than any other single factor. OBP is better correlated than SLG or BA.

When you take a "walk" your team's OBP increases and your chances of maximizing the runs scored increases. Encourage your entire line-up to take any "walks" that are offered to them. You'll force the opposing pitcher to pitch strikes, and a good hitting team will take advantage of that.

Be selective!

[Chris O'Leary]

As an FYI, I encourage my hitters to take a "walk" whenever possible.

Me too.

This is something I took away from Moneyball; that taking a walk is a valuable skill. That is because at the youth level a walk is as good as a triple (or even a home run).

When doing the batting order, I factor hits, walks, and HBP into On Base Percentage in roughly descending order of OBP, while taking power into account.

[Stealth]

Me too.

This is something I took away from Moneyball; that taking a walk is a valuable skill. That is because at the youth level a walk is as good as a triple (or even a home run).

When doing the batting order, I factor hits, walks, and HBP into On Base Percentage in roughly descending order of OBP, while taking power into account.

Keep in mind you have to teach your kids to HIT. A college coach told me one time that he gets to many kids who can only hit a ball right down the middle. The problem is they don't get to many pitches right down the middle. I am all for having kids have discipline at the plate but at the youth level - let them HIT!

[LAball]

Taking a walk is ok..:sleepy: But Id rather see my son pup the ball in play at U10, even if its an out.. of course this is if we are ahead.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I am all for having kids have discipline at the plate but at the youth level - let them HIT!


I want to force the pitcher to throw strikes, and then punish the pitcher for doing so.

[Chris O'Leary]

Keep in mind you have to teach your kids to HIT. A college coach told me one time that he gets to many kids who can only hit a ball right down the middle. The problem is they don't get to many pitches right down the middle. I am all for having kids have discipline at the plate but at the youth level - let them HIT!

My guys swing when they get a ball in the kill zone.

However, they don't swing at balls or pitches out of their kill zone unless they have to protect the plate.

Again, plate discipline is a skill than can and should be developed in hitters.

[Stealth]

My guys swing when they get a ball in the kill zone.

However, they don't swing at balls or pitches out of their kill zone unless they have to protect the plate.

Again, plate discipline is a skill than can and should be developed in hitters.

And all I am saying is be careful at the youth level about being too disciplined.

[hawkiirock]

walks are great. Batting average is really just an overrated stat imo

[FiveFrameSwing]

walks are great. Batting average is really just an overrated stat imo

Biggest problem with using BA is that it fails to reward "walks".

The advantage of using OBP is that it factors in "walks" to one's BA.

[mudvnine]

Again, plate discipline is a skill than can and should be developed in hitters.

100% correct Chris, teaching only the physical aspect of hitting is only producing half a hitter.

Every hitter (at any age) needs to understand the mental aspect of hitting and must have a "plan" when approaching the plate on every at-bat.

Granted "the plan" needs to be age appropriate, but every hitter needs one all the same or they're not going to the plate with all of the available ammunition.

[callyjr]

my boy has taken 35 at bats, walked 7 times and no k's this year. 1st part of year he hit a lot of balls into the ground to pitcher and the right side of the field, It think he has a very good swing, better then most HS kids IMO, some of you have seen it. I could tell he He lacked confidence, playing against kids 2 and 3 years older. He was still getting on base a lot so I just let him continue to go up and hit, but only 1 hit in the first 15 or so was not a grounder. I didn't think he was ready for a good pitch when he got it and in turn seemed late on a lot of balls. I told him to think every pitch was going to be perfect and I wanted to see him looking to swing at every pitch and only stop if its not a good pitch. The very next game he hit his inside the park HR(triple with an error) a nice drive down the rf line, after that he started getting around on the pitches more and has even started poping balls into LF and LC.

not sure if it applies in your situation, maybe he is not picking up the pitch early enough or maybe he simply is not thinking he will get a good pitch and when he does it too late to get that good swing on it.

Cally

[Jake Patterson]

Cally,
I would offer that he may not be hitting the ball well if he's only hitting ground balls. Ground balls are better than pop flys, but line drives are better than ground balls. I suggest high speed film and check his swing plane..

[StraightGrain11]

Is he "pounding balls into the ground" or hitting "hard ground balls" (1-2 hoppers through the IF). If he's hitting hard ground balls up the middle...there can't be much he's doing wrong. It's going to be a VERY SMALL adjustment (to get the ball "elevated"), one he's going to have to make on his own. As long as he's hitting the ball hard up the middle, encourage him to keep doing so. They'll get through, eventually. :)

[Nater44]

[QUOTE=jbolt_2000;1196832]Hi All!

My son is 10 and is hitting fairly well. He could be better - I think his mechanics are strong, but some things I've noticed is that he lacks confidence, he's looking for the walk more than the hit, and possibly just looking for that "perfect" pitch to swing at. All those pieces I am working with him to fix. I believe it is mostly mental in that regard.


Many times a lot of ground balls signifies that too much weight transfer is happening with his lower half of this body, however, a video (as suggested multiple times) would be the way to go. If you can shoot it from the side, that would be the best.

As far as the mental side, could be the fear of failing that keeps young hitters from pulling the trigger. I've seen that a lot from the young guys I work with. If you're looking for how to help him with that part of the game, here is an article (http://ezinearticles.com/?Baseball-Instruction---Is-it-Just-Your-Imagination?&id=1170544) I wrote on that specifically. Good luck.

[Love The Game]

It could be many things. Is he rolling his hands over too much? This will obviously result in ground balls. Does he have enough hip turn? When the hips don't fully turn it tends to make the swing plane angle slightly downwards, especially in younger kids.

[Drill]

My son gets into grounding the ball sometimes and I just tell him think line drive up the middle.

He is getting better at batting and learning how to place the ball if he is grounding a lot of balls.

you can just do some tee work and have him hit line drive in the batting cage. do some soft toss and work you way up to live pitching. This is the best I can tell you.

Been there,

drill

[Ursa Major]

Obviously, video would be helpful here, but we can offer anecdotal evidence and you can decide if something fits.

When some of our guys -- including Ursa Minor -- go through a spate of hitting too many grounders and not pulling anything, it's often because they're getting they're bottom hand too far in front of them, which slows down the arc of the barrel and so they make contact before the barrel starts it rise upward. Ideally, at the instant of contact, there should be a straight line running from the front elbow to the hands to the barrel of the bat.

It may sound dumb, but have you tried suggesting that he aim for the bottom half of the ball? Sometimes that helps.

I disagree that a 10 y/o kid who takes too many called third strikes should be encouraged to try to manufacture walks. Sure, he shouldn't swing at pitches way out of the strike zone. But, he should view every pitch as one to hit unless he decides to stop the process.

[StraightGrain11]

Ok, I'm cuious about something...:think:

I notice a lot of people on here keep talking about the "cause" of groundballs being a result of "hitting down on the ball". In my experience, I've found that the majority of the time, the "cause" of groundballs is from "swinging up on the ball". The bat starts "up" before the ball gets there, and you end up hitting the back/top half of the ball on your upswing, creating top-spinners that get "pounded into the ground" or "lay down" for a nice, "easy grounder" - not so much from "hitting down on the ball"...
http://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_SView.gif http://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_FView.gif
If you hit the top-half of the ball on your "down swing"/"before the barrel starts back up" (Ursa), the ball is going to go STRAIGHT DOWN and STRAIGHT UP. Essentially, the CATCHER/PITCHER will probably be able to get to it and catch it in the air before it takes its 2nd hop. You won't be hitting [m]any balls to any of the infielders this way - unless, of course, you get "good" enough at it to make a living off the "Baltimore Chop"...:crazy

[FiveFrameSwing]

It could be many things. Is he rolling his hands over too much? This will obviously result in ground balls. Does he have enough hip turn? When the hips don't fully turn it tends to make the swing plane angle slightly downwards, especially in younger kids.

On the topic of the wrists rolling prematurely, Jack Mankin states that the cause of this is due to the lead-arm action. When the lead elbow is too low and close to the body, the hands will roll over prematurely. When the lead elbow moves up it inhibits premature wrist rollover.

Perhaps someone else can describe this better.

[FiveFrameSwing]

It may sound dumb, but have you tried suggesting that he aim for the bottom half of the ball? Sometimes that helps.


I personally dislike that advice and believe hitters should be trying to hit the center of the ball.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ok, I'm cuious about something...:think:

I notice a lot of people on here keep talking about the "cause" of groundballs being a result of "hitting down on the ball". In my experience, I've found that the majority of the time, the "cause" of groundballs is from "swinging up on the ball". The bat starts "up" before the ball gets there, and you end up hitting the back/top half of the ball on your upswing, creating top-spinners that get "pounded into the ground" or "lay down" for a nice, "easy grounder" - not so much from "hitting down on the ball"...
http://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_SView.gif http://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_FView.gif



I think it was Ted Williams that said if a hitter is early they will tend to hit grounders, and if they are late they will tend to hit fly balls. I believe the logic here is that contact generally takes place during the upward trajectory of the bat barrel. If the timing is perfect then you'll hit the center of the ball, if you are early and connect too far out front then you'll hit the top of the ball, if you are late then you'll hit the bottom of the ball.

[Nater44]

Well yes, the goal of a hitter (unless he's got Ichiro speed since he'll need more GB's) is to hit the ball with backspin. This creates line drives that will carry into the gaps. The solution for how to do this is a little more complex than aiming for a certain part of the ball. In general, it's important to work on mechanics stemming from the lower half of the body. Quick a few mechanical difficulties come from weight shift and balance within the lower body. If you'd like more, here is an article (http://ezinearticles.com/?Baseball-Drills---Hitting-Problems?---Check-The-Lower-Half-First&id=1144919) on this.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well yes, the goal of a hitter (unless he's got Ichiro speed since he'll need more GB's) is to hit the ball with backspin. This creates line drives that will carry into the gaps. The solution for how to do this is a little more complex than aiming for a certain part of the ball. In general, it's important to work on mechanics stemming from the lower half of the body. Quick a few mechanical difficulties come from weight shift and balance within the lower body. If you'd like more, here is an article (http://ezinearticles.com/?Baseball-Drills---Hitting-Problems?---Check-The-Lower-Half-First&id=1144919) on this.


This part was music to my ears.

"There are very few things more frustrating to an athlete than than to struggle at the plate as a hitter and not understand where the problem stems from. When I work with hitters, I focus on perfecting the functions of lower body mechanics because of the affect the lower body has on the upper half. Trying to solve upper body hitting mechanics without addressing the lower half first is like attempting to build a house beginning with the second story prior to building the basement - it doesn't work too well."

Dr. Chris Yeager is big into getting the lower body mechanics correct.

[StraightGrain11]

I think it was Ted Williams that said if a hitter is early they will tend to hit grounders, and if they are late they will tend to hit fly balls. I believe the logic here is that contact generally takes place during the upward trajectory of the bat barrel. If the timing is perfect then you'll hit the center of the ball, if you are early and connect too far out front then you'll hit the top of the ball, if you are late then you'll hit the bottom of the ball.

:laugh Thank you FFS, but you basically just said exactly what I already did. I was looking more for the people's input who think the opposite (Epstein guys, possibly). But it is nice to know someone else, atleast, understands what I am talking about. :)
(And no, I didn't get my ideas from Ted, I got them from simple logic and observation - just like he did :nod:)

But I believe THIS is the main reason hitters at the upper level (like Hiddengem) are taught to hit "down through the ball". By keeping your bat trajectory FOCUSED downwards longer, you maintain your bat path better, and give yourself a better chance at hitting the ball AS your bat comes up - not AFTER.
http://i30.tinypic.com/14t8zr4.gif http://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_SView.gif
Different approach produces different results...

[Baseball gLove]

This part was music to my ears.

"There are very few things more frustrating to an athlete than than to struggle at the plate as a hitter and not understand where the problem stems from. When I work with hitters, I focus on perfecting the functions of lower body mechanics because of the affect the lower body has on the upper half. Trying to solve upper body hitting mechanics without addressing the lower half first is like attempting to build a house beginning with the second story prior to building the basement - it doesn't work too well."

Dr. Chris Yeager is big into getting the lower body mechanics correct.

I found with younger hitters quick results are important, so I worked from the top down. Funny thing is that the bottom half often worked itself out on its own with most of these players. Out of 9 players I only needed to work on the bottom half with 3 of the players. One would straighten his back leg and another would collapse both legs, the third didn't remember his last instruction.

[randy]

Agreed. Thanks to a conversation with straightgrain, I went back this spring and focused on my son's hands and handpath, upper body, etc. and he has been hitting a ton. His lower body seems to do what it needs to do, but his focus is his hands.
.

[jbolt_2000]

Thanks everyone - all good info!

I will try to get some video of my boy hitting the cages today (before our game). Hopefully I can get it posted sometime soon and get some specific feedback.

I think part of it is mental. He seems to go up there looking for the walk. I have tried to teach him, and will continue to push, the idea of thinking hit the whole way through until he sees that it is actually a ball. While watching him bat I can see that he doesn't even shift his weight or begin loading until he is absolutely sure its a strike. I've explained to him that he needs to be loading up and stepping through on each pitch and only pull out (not swing) once he sees its a ball.

As for the actual hits - Most of the ground outs are easy grounders, as if he isn't swinging all the way through and getting full power. On occasion they are solid grounders, but during BP I've noticed he holds back a little at times.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I found with younger hitters quick results are important, so I worked from the top down. Funny thing is that the bottom half often worked itself out on its own with most of these players. Out of 9 players I only needed to work on the bottom half with 3 of the players. One would straighten his back leg and another would collapse both legs, the third didn't remember his last instruction.


Just finished the high school season where I served as the Varsity hitting instructor. The majority of the players had issues with their lower body momentum mechanics. As part of their everyday exercises they performed Yeager's lower body momentum drills. The team had it's best year ever.

IMO you need to get the lower body working correctly before you engage in perfecting the upper body.

[tom.guerry]

5 frame-

Mankin's analysis is very good.

Intially he found that the worst flaw in the MLB swings he looked at was the wrist roll flaw. Of all the flaws he noted charting a number of swings for each player on large numbers of MLB hitters over 2- 3 seasons in the late 80's/early 90's, the ones with the wrist roll flaw had the highest dropout rate/didn't stick in the show.

The wrists HAVE to roll as compensation to keep the bathead accelerating IF connection is poor OR if whatever you are connected to is not loaded well enough.

In womens's fastpitch softball (where virtually ALL swings were horrible at that time), the wisdom was to encourage the doorknocker grip in fingers with metal bats because virtually ALL fastpitch hitters did not load or connect well and HAD to roll the wrists so the desired teaching goal became to roll the wrists but keep the bat/swingplane from wobbling via this type of grip.

when you actually study these lower level swings, the usual trajectory of the bathead as with Zig's motionanlysis system is that the bathead accelerates, then decelerates then reaccelerates with the wrist roll which is a nightmare for timing.

So several things are necessary to not roll:

1- a nonbinding grip

2- a lead arm that stays connected which requires the lead arm to internally rotate in the lead shoulder socket (this is what gets point of elbow up into swing plane) and stay "up"/internally rotated/connected until contact with NO deceleration prior to contact, and

3- there must be a well enough loaded torso to connect the bathead to, to then accelerate the bathead quickly in a well matched swing plane all the way to contact. This requires not only a certain absolute degree of "separation"/x-factor stretch, BUT MORE importantly a quick well directed END of he stretch ("x-factor stretch"/"cusp") that reverses efficiently to overcome the killer inertia (resistance to rotation/acceleration) at the very beginning of the swing.

The last grip related flaw that mankin observes is the "droopy lead wrist" which comes from top hand dominant/tight top hand grip which forces a type of wirst "bind" where the wrist can not hinge smoothly. The bottom wrist then deforms/droops (wrist flexion/opposite of "cupping") to try to compensate which screws up the swing plane approaching contact. This lack of "flat hands" is a very common but more minor flaw in the MLB hitters Jack has studied (Jack has studied many swings of many hundreds, perhaps thousands of MLB hitters) that hitters go in and out of.

[tom.guerry]

5 frame -

I think you need to get the lower body in the ball park so it can then be optimized by the upepr body which is in control with hands on handle as prime locus of control, feeling bathead.

Epstein bat on deltoid is good for this while you get lower body under control, then good upper body focus can fine tune the sequence/synch of upper and lower bidy and weight shift.

[Baseball gLove]

Just finished the high school season where I served as the Varsity hitting instructor. The majority of the players had issues with their lower body momentum mechanics. As part of their everyday exercises they performed Yeager's lower body momentum drills. The team had it's best year ever.

IMO you need to get the lower body working correctly before you engage in perfecting the upper body.

With 7 & 8's I have to keep it simple. They can have perfect form on the bottom half and still miss the ball all day. I have them focus on contact first, but I don't want them to learn hands to the balls. I do work with them to have hands short, inside and above the ball.

I was finally able to fix the kid who would straighten his back leg and the kid that would collapse both legs. Both still need work, but they now understand that their hip turn is what gives them power. My own 8 year old is recognizing flaws in his own swing and the swings of others and seems to adjust much more quickly and easily.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
It may sound dumb, but have you tried suggesting that he aim for the bottom half of the ball? Sometimes that helps.

FiveFrameSwing replied: I personally dislike that advice and believe hitters should be trying to hit the center of the ball.FiveFrame, I agree that hitters should be trying to hit the center of the ball, but some kids for some reason just naturally swing in a way that results in hitting the top or bottom of the ball. Maybe they just read it wrong. So, one short term approach to correct the topping problem is to tell them to aim lower; after awhile, they'll get used to hitting the ball dead center and will shift that spot to being the "middle" of the spot they're aiming for.

Nater44 said: Well yes, the goal of a hitter (unless he's got Ichiro speed since he'll need more GB's) is to hit the ball with backspin. This creates line drives that will carry into the gaps. The only people who should even think about hitting the ball with backspin are true power hitters who are trying to hit the ball over an outfielder or fence. Everyone else should hope to hit it dead center, or they'll just hit a lot of easily caught fly balls.

[Nater44]

line drives in the gap have back spin. Base hits many times have back spin. Back spin doesn't always mean fly balls if that is what you thought i was referring to. Basically all hitters are looking to hit the ball hard... without top spin. Humpback line drives and hook balls down the line are not good long term.

[rkbenn]

Keep in mind you have to teach your kids to HIT. A college coach told me one time that he gets to many kids who can only hit a ball right down the middle. The problem is they don't get to many pitches right down the middle. I am all for having kids have discipline at the plate but at the youth level - let them HIT!

Agreed, walking is for kids that don't want to swing the bat. I tell my kids if the ball is close swing. Hitting is more fun that walking! Were developing hitters not walkers.

[Dirtberry]

StraightHrain11,

"Ok, I'm cuious about something..."

"I notice a lot of people on here keep talking about the "cause" of groundballs being a result of "hitting down on the ball". In my experience, I've found that the majority of the time, the "cause" of groundballs is from "swinging up on the ball". The bat starts "up" before the ball gets there, and you end up hitting the back/top half of the ball on your upswing, creating top-spinners that get "pounded into the ground" or "lay down" for a nice, "easy grounder" - not so much from "hitting down on the ball"..."

You hit it on the screws, this is exactly what happens!
This is all I do all day long is fix this one flaw over and over with every age group, If I get them to understand exit spin and how to create it they have it made!!

[callyjr]

you know how much time I spend with a student on hitting top half and bottom half of a ball. NONE. ZERO, ZILCH

You want to hit ground balls then teach them to hit down on the ball, you want to hit gaps then teach them to swing level to the ball, ball is coming slightly down , you want a slightly upward swing to match that. Its very simply really.

Cally

[Dirtberry]

Callyjr,

“You want to hit ground balls then teach them to hit down on the ball”

This is how I get them to swing level and produce backspin line drives!

[StraightGrain11]

you know how much time I spend with a student on hitting top half and bottom half of a ball. NONE. ZERO, ZILCH

You want to hit ground balls then teach them to hit down on the ball.

Cally

Then please explain this. :)
http://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_FView.gifhttp://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_SView.gif

Compared to this...
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/pujolshrCFfrontside.gif

Which approach is producing the groundball?

[callyjr]

Then please explain this. :)
http://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_FView.gifhttp://www.hsbbweb.com/1hitting/MEnsberg2005HOU_SView.gif

Compared to this...
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/pujolshrCFfrontside.gif

Which approach is producing the groundball?

Are you suggesting they are swinging down or level to the ball. I use Pujols as an example with every student. My kids don't hit ground balls. I don't have them swinging down.

[StraightGrain11]

Are you suggesting they are swinging down or level to the ball. I use Pujols as an example with every student. My kids don't hit ground balls. I don't have them swinging down.
I am suggesting Ensburg is "swing up on the ball" - and the result is a GROUNDBALL.

ball is coming slightly down , you want a slightly upward swing to match that. Its very simply really

You are describing what happens AT CONTACT. Unfortunately, this slightly "upward trajectory of the bat" is a result of everythig that occurs BEFORE contact - which is to hit with a "downward" APPROACH - which is NOT swinging "down [into the ground]".
Yes, if you cannot see that Pujols has a "downward" APPROACH to the ball compared to Ensburg...I really don't what to tell you.

[callyjr]

Callyjr,

“You want to hit ground balls then teach them to hit down on the ball”

This is how I get them to swing level and produce backspin line drives!

its funny to watch some coaches teaching their hitters to hit down on the ball and when in fact video shows they are not. Its possibly your getting the results your after and they are in fact not doing what your teaching them. I see it a lot. Do you have video of your kids, i bet they are not swinging down on the ball to create that back spin. If you ever thought about it, swinging slightly up would give you the same back spin if you hit bottom half and if you got on top of the ball it would create a more powerful top spin like in tennis. Interesting huh.

Cally

[callyjr]

I am suggesting Ensburg is "swing up on the ball" - and the result is a GROUNDBALL.

You are describing what happens AT CONTACT. Unfortunately, this slightly "upward trajectory of the bat" is a result of everythig that occurs BEFORE contact - which is to hit with a "downward" APPROACH - which is NOT swinging "down [into the ground]".
Yes, if you cannot see that Pujols has a "downward" APPROACH to the ball compared to Ensburg...I really don't what to tell you.


this debate has been done and will continue forever, I don't see him swinging down, but we are probably talking the same swing. I will dis-engage as there is no reason to debate if he is swinging down or up.

later

cally

[StraightGrain11]

its funny to watch some coaches teaching their hitters to hit down on the ball and when in fact video shows they are not. Its possibly your getting the results your after and they are in fact not doing what your teaching them. I see it a lot. Do you have video of your kids, i bet they are not swinging down on the ball to create that back spin. If you ever thought about it, swinging slightly up would give you the same back spin if you hit bottom half and if you got on top of the ball it would create a more powerful top spin like in tennis. Interesting huh.

Cally

If this approach is not "downward" then what is it? It is certainly NOT "upward".
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/251/459311488_a00fa8e803.jpg?v=0

[callyjr]

If this approach is not "downward" then what is it? It is certainly NOT "upward".
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/251/459311488_a00fa8e803.jpg?v=0

Does the barrel get below the hands before contact? If so explain how you can swing down when the barrel is below the hands. Again the debate has been lived out on here a million times. You will never get me to believe pujols swings down or barry swings down. Lets move on...

[StraightGrain11]

Does the barrel get below the hands before contact? If so explain how you can swing down when the barrel is below the hands. Again the debate has been lived out on here a million times. You will never get me to believe pujols swings down or barry swings down. Lets move on...

Because you're "twisting" my words. I didn't say "swing down", I said "take a downward APPROACH". The bat STARTS "down" TOWARDS the ball, but as the bat gets near contact, the "upward tracjectory" occurs - but it is NOT as a result of thinking "swing up on the ball". This approach has to do with "staying on top of the ball" as long as possible.

[Swing Coach]

ally,

Perhaps your definition of swinging down is different than what I know to be true. If you are talking about swinging down through contact, then you are correct that this is not good.

However, if you think mlb and other elite hitters do not initiate a downward swing, then you are mistaken. Every mlb hitter I have ever looked at initiates his hands down and forward to initiate the swing.This is why they are so quick to the ball. And this is an absolute. Do they continue down through the ball?...No.

*No matter where the pitch, if it is a strike, they take the knob of the bat down and forward, and if anybody takes that teach or swing thought away from kids, you are doing them a disservice. The blue dots below represent the knob of the bat from the initial movement.

43586

[callyjr]

ally,

Perhaps your definition of swinging down is different than what I know to be true. If you are talking about swinging down through contact, then you are correct that this is not good.

However, if you think mlb and other elite hitters do not initiate a downward swing, then you are mistaken. Every mlb hitter I have ever looked at initiates his hands down and forward to initiate the swing.This is why they are so quick to the ball. And this is an absolute. Do they continue down through the ball?...No.

*No matter where the pitch, if it is a strike, they take the knob of the bat down and forward, and if anybody takes that teach or swing thought away from kids, you are doing them a disservice. The blue dots below represent the knob of the bat from the initial movement.

43586

I think what I am teaching is correct and is probably the same as you are teaching, I just don't use swing down as a cue as its to broad of a term and can easliy be confused by many youths.

[Swing Coach]

I think you are right about us agreeing.

My main point is.....The first movement of the bat in the mlb'er is the knob going down and forward. Problem is that the first movement of the bat in 90 percent of ll'gers is the barrell goes down and the knob does nothing. In these kids I like to initiate the swing down by teachign them that first 4-5 inch movement of the knob. Over and over I have them start their swing with the knob by moving it down and forward and repeat over and over -- but never go more than 4-5 inches in this drill. It is merely a swing initiation drill in the hopes that it will somehow get into their muscle memory. So poor are most kids at this initiation, when you tell them to do this and hold the barrell with your hand...they can't event make the movement to pull forward and down because they want to first drop the barrell and then pull the bat--- unfortunately, they have to be taught to initiate the knob down and forward.

[Stealth]

unfortunately, they have to be taught to initiate the knob down and forward.

And to add to the above........make sure the lead hand palm is facing down when going forward - from Robson's "The Hitting Edge"

Robson notes in his book he hates the one arm practice swings because most (not all) people with their lead arm/hand are not strong enough and hit down through the ball.

[Ursa Major]

Stealth, I don't think the Dobson criticism of one-arm (bottom arm) swings is well taken.

First, the drill's primary purpose is (IMHO) to promote connection. If that knob drops or the hand holding the bat leaves the back shoulder, of course the swing will suck. That's called a self-reinforcing drill. Often the improper "chopping wood" swing results from the lower body or the hands drifting forward before the swing begins. Use the back shoulder to drive the knob "down and forward" like you suggest, and the barrel can more readily make the "U" shape parabola you want to get it into the upward trajectory that matches the downward trajectory of the pitched ball.

Second, don't use a full-sized bat! (Or choke up a bunch if you do.) HiddenGem has mentioned that he has a special, small-sized bat that he uses before games for one-arm drills.

[FiveFrameSwing]

And to add to the above........make sure the lead hand palm is facing down when going forward - from Robson's "The Hitting Edge"


Good point.

What page # is that on?

[FiveFrameSwing]

From the book "The Hitting Edge" (p. 142):

"A hitter who tries to hit the ball too hard and uses his upper body too much will hit a lot of ground balls. The hitter needs to relax and use this lower body, feeling his front leg snapping straight just before contact."

[Jake Patterson]

Second, don't use a full-sized bat! (Or choke up a bunch if you do.) HiddenGem has mentioned that he has a special, small-sized bat that he uses before games for one-arm drills.I have one I bought years ago called a "Bom" bat. I have no idea where I got it.

[Stealth]

Good point.

What page # is that on?

Not at home right now but it's toward the back in the drill section I believe.

He also does not like shorter bats because the relationship of the hands to the sweet spot is not the same - paraphrasing as I don't have the book in front of me.

Ursa - I don't have a problem with the drill - just pointing out it needs to be done correctly. Too many kids with one arm swings (lead hand) swing down through the ball which does not happen in a good swing. Thus the reason I quoted Robson.

[cvllplayer4]

ok, earlier you guys were talking about a walk is better than a hit. What do you think your kid likes more: making contact and possibly getting a single, double, etc. or does he like to walk to first instead? The Little League is for fun, not for batting averages and OBP's. its about HAVING FUN and whats best for your kid. trust me, i would know. im a kid in LL.

[GrandSlam]

I think you should teach kids plate discipline but not make them look for walks. They should look for a pitch to hit but be able to lay of it if it is out of the zone. If they are always looking to take a pitch before the pitcher throws the ball, they wont be able to react good enough to get a quality hit. All kids should be able to take a walk but not necessary look for one, especially young 9 and 10 year old ones.

[Jake Patterson]

ok, earlier you guys were talking about a walk is better than a hit. Nobody here who is a serious coach would agree with this. A hit is always better than a walk.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Nobody here who is a serious coach would agree with this. A hit is always better than a walk.

From the book Baseball Between the Numbers:

"With the bases empty, a walk is every bit as good as a single. This is not the case with runners on base."

"In a tie game in the bottom of the ninth with a runner on third base, a single is every bit as good as a home run."

"If the home team is batting in the bottom of the ninth down by two runs with nobody on, a walk is virtually as good as a home run."

"With a runner on first base and less than two outs, a strikeout is preferable to a groundout."

[Dirtberry]

Callyjr,

This is my first attempt at this.
Hope it shows what I'm talking about.
I took this Sat nite with one of my 12 year olds banging a line drive HR.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/dirtberry/th_GriffinHRclip_0001.jpg (http://s259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/dirtberry/?action=view&current=GriffinHRclip_0001.flv)

[Swing Coach]

Dirt,

That was a nice hit..and that looks like a big athletic kid who homered. Just because he homered does not mean swinging down like that is a good thing. Not one elite hs, college or mlb swing will the player swing down like that. Not one. I have looked at too much video. When you swing down on a ball coming at down angle, a player's hitting zone is decreased dramatically....and that is not good when they have to face better pitching that moves in, out and down at the last second. So, you have to get to the point where you ask why it is that ALL high level swings do not swing down through the ball. Swinging up on the ball is not the answer. The elite swings start with the hands going down (as I showed in a previous clip) but then the back shoulder drops along with the barrell to get "on plane" with the pitch. Then the swing levels of or goes slightly up and through the ball. It is NOT easy to teach this....for any of us. If that kid who homered tried my favorite drill of fungo'ing a ball over the CF's head, I bet you he couldn't do it very consistently (or at all). He woudl be trying to swing down on a ball, cut it just right and backspin in out there.....very difficult. I know this is how he homered...but you said it was a line drive....which is the only way he will hit one out in my opinion because his swing robs him of his power potential. Perhaps a kid that big and athletic should be hitting towering homers. Just something to think about.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Callyjr,

This is my first attempt at this.
Hope it shows what I'm talking about.
I took this Sat nite with one of my 12 year olds banging a line drive HR.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/dirtberry/th_GriffinHRclip_0001.jpg (http://s259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/dirtberry/?action=view&current=GriffinHRclip_0001.flv)

The kid is doing a lot right. Nice!

[Dirtberry]

Swing coach,

Dirt,

.” Just because he homered does not mean swinging down like that is a good thing.”

It means he will hit less ground balls! This actual swing is a little to down even for me, I prefer level at contact, which gives you the slight vectored difference that I like.


“Not one elite hs, college or mlb swing will the player swing down like that. Not one. I have looked at too much video.”

Your statement here is not true, I’ve seen the same slow video that you have but I see it different than you, I’ve seen many higher level swings level at contact, Puljols comes to mind as one, Maris is another and many, many more.

When you swing down on a ball coming at down angle, a player's hitting zone is decreased dramatically....and that is not good when they have to face better pitching that moves in, out and down at the last second.

If you do nothing all swings will have huge warp in their driveline; uppercut at contact will put the ball on the ground, not preferable for me.

“So, you have to get to the point where you ask why it is that ALL high level swings do not swing down through the ball. Swinging up on the ball is not the answer.”

All is a powerful statement!

“because his swing robs him of his power potential.”

Creating backspin, gives the ball life using a pitching term in the right direction, which in turn gives you the most distance potential. The power will be the same with both approaches but the flight plan changes. I prefer the exit spin that produces lift.

“Perhaps a kid that big and athletic should be hitting towering homers. Just something to think about.”

Pop up HR’s are not preferable later on in their baseball careers when the fences get deep. None of my kids have had any trouble when they reach the higher levels of competition and they all fight contact loop all year every year because it always comes back.

[Swing Coach]

I don't disagree with level....many mlb swings start down and continue level to the ball...like Pujols ----but I challenge you to find one where the downward swing continues through the ball and the barrel of the bat is lower than it was when it made contact --- like your boy. Pro scouts and players will talk all day to you about hitting in a big zone. You can't do that if your barrel is driving straight down through the ball. Just my thoughts.

[Jake Patterson]

From the book Baseball Between the Numbers:

"With the bases empty, a walk is every bit as good as a single. This is not the case with runners on base."

"In a tie game in the bottom of the ninth with a runner on third base, a single is every bit as good as a home run."

"If the home team is batting in the bottom of the ninth down by two runs with nobody on, a walk is virtually as good as a home run."

"With a runner on first base and less than two outs, a strikeout is preferable to a groundout."
I won't argue the statistical merit of the above. I would however argue the value of the lessons learned or more specific... taught.

[LAball]

I know we are talking about swinging down, let me talk about swinging up. There are 2 ways to do it.

An uppercut swing in which the handle and and bat head stays virtually horizontal and the whole bat move in a upward fashion.

Then there is a golf like swing. Usualy done on low balls. In which the handle is higher then the bat head, but the bat head is moving upwards. But before the bathead moves up, it goes down to meet the ball. Hense haveing a downward swing. I beleive this is the type I see in the MLB for low ball and belt high balls. Chest high balls will have a more difficult time with this swing plane to get the hands that high and may have more of an upper cut like swing plane.


Unfortunately for me, me son has a level swing right now and hits 80% grounders. I have not had a chance to work on swing plane yet, cuz I've mainly been focusing on the lower body. Thank god i've got that figured out now.... I hope. but the seasons over, so that will have to wait till next season.

[mudvnine]

I have not had a chance to work on swing plane yet, cuz I've mainly been focusing on the lower body. Thank god i've got that figured out now.... I hope. but the seasons over, so that will have to wait till next season.

Now that "the seasons over" . . . NOW is the time to work on things, don't wait for next year's season to start . . . that's too late.

[LAball]

sorry, we got basketball now , and soccer in the Fall. Hopefully we can get into winterball :gt

[mudvnine]

sorry, we got basketball now , and soccer in the Fall. Hopefully we can get into winterball :gt

Nothing wrong with having kids play other sports, especially when they're young, keeps them from getting burned-out too soon. But one night a week gives them time to absorb new techniques and usually prices at the cages are cheaper in the off-season. :)

Good luck

[StraightGrain11]

Dirt,

Just because he homered does not mean swinging down like that is a good thing.
I appreciated the post earlier showing what I meant with a "downward start/approach to the ball". But this boy is not "swinging down", he's just "cutting-off" his follow-thru.

Compare this with [attached] Picture #4 or #5
http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43673&stc=1&d=1212363840

THIS is "down"? I don't see "swinging down" here. I see a "stiff finish". This is a very nice swing (short/compact).

[khrog]

Callyjr,

This is my first attempt at this.
Hope it shows what I'm talking about.
I took this Sat nite with one of my 12 year olds banging a line drive HR.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/dirtberry/th_GriffinHRclip_0001.jpg (http://s259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/dirtberry/?action=view&current=GriffinHRclip_0001.flv)

Watching that video, I'd have to say that he is doing an awful lot right. His initial start of the bat is to rotate his hands correctly to generate additional torque. He kept his lead arm straight across his chest allowing his shoulder to do the heavy lifting for that arm and straightened the lead leg correctly just prior to contact.

Without high speed or stop-action clip, I'd have to say that the only thing that he may have lost power on was co-ordination of the shoulder rotation with the hip rotation. They seemed to be closer to in sequence rather than running together(until the shoulder out-rotates the hips around contact).

[LakesFreeman]

Swing Coach,

I just wanted to say thanks. My 10 year old son has been struggling for the past 3 years with always hitting grounders. I showed him those pictures and your explanation. Then we went out to the backyard, and he started cranking line drives. Unbelievable difference. He almost hit 3 different neighbor's houses. Thanks again.
The blue dots below represent the knob of the bat from the initial movement.

43586