Will throwing football help pitching velocity?

[mightylakers]

First it is a little heavier than baseball so this will help to build up the strength?

How about the size, do you think it can help kid to get better hand/fingers actions?

TIA

[Baseball gLove]

Throwing a football doesn't help velocity, but it doesn't hurt it either. It does help condition the arm. Nolan Ryan would toss a football as a part of his warm up before long toss.

[APPpitch]

Throwing a football helps with throwing a football, if that is your goal.

Nolan Ryan had a difficult time throwing strikes, imagine if he spent more time on the mound throwing the baseball into the strikezone.

Sometimes logic is ignored and distractions get introduced.

Does Tiger Woods swing a lacrosse stick?

-scott

[cosmo34]

Won't increase your velocity, but like said before, it will help condition the arm, and is a great warmup to get loose. Todd Walker, Clemens, and Uggla are some that I've seen do it.

[RuthMayBond]

Nolan Ryan had a difficult time throwing strikes,

The question was about velocity. I believe Nolan Ryan was above average in that department

<imagine if he spent more time on the mound throwing the baseball into the strikezone.>

You mean more than 5,386 regular-season innings and 22,575 batters faced? :think:

[Baseball gLove]

Throwing a football helps with throwing a football, if that is your goal.

Nolan Ryan had a difficult time throwing strikes, imagine if he spent more time on the mound throwing the baseball into the strikezone.

Sometimes logic is ignored and distractions get introduced.

Does Tiger Woods swing a lacrosse stick?

-scott

Ryan started throwing the football with Houston when he finally exceeded 2 K's for each walk issued. From 1984 to 1993 he struck out 3.63 batters for each walked batter. He also had a lifetime ERA of 3.19. Who has more No Hitters than he does? Coincidence?

[Jesse]

I would be careful doing this. Some people have trouble when they go from one size/type ball to another. I know if I spend all day throwing a softball, then try to throw a baseball, I have a hard time. Going from a football to a baseball really messes me up. If you don't have this problem, go for it.

Also, be aware that it's not exactly the same motion. A football is thrown more from a cocked position, and has a quicker release. I have seen people throw a football with a baseball-style windup, but it's not the norm and it's difficult to do effectively unless you have huge paws.

[APPpitch]

Again, distractions abound. You could spend more time on the mound throwing a small white ball into a strikezone, OR you could spend less time doing this and more time perfecting your football tossing skills. When a batter steps into the box, which skill are you now hoping to have spent more time doing?

The skill of command is practiced in practice, not in the game.

How much football tossing does Tim Lincecum do?

Time spent doing things that are not specific to your specific sporting activity is time wasted. Time you can never reclaim.

Does Roger Federer swing a badminton racket, how about a weighted badminton racket?

Do quarterbacks throw baseballs or basketballs to train to be quarterbacks?

Do basketball players practice shooting soccer balls?

Keep away from anything that distracts from the task at hand.

Ryan threw hard because after he stepped back, he exploded forward and kept his hips moving forward into a long stride, braced up his landing leg and sent his upper half flying forward. Just like Lincecum.

Tom House turned Ryan onto throwing a football I believe. Tom House created distractions and used a generation of pitchers as guinea pigs. I'm assuming Dice-K tried it because the Red Sox thought this was a way to go. I believe Dice-K has gone back to just throwing hundreds of pitches from the mound during his bullpens.

He was distracted for a short bit.

Don't be distracted.

-scott

PS> Here is the final blurb from Tom House's USC pitching coach appointment:

"Tom brings us knowledge," Kreuter said. "He brings research, as he's tried to bring the pitching aspect of baseball into the 21st century with technology, and has done that. It's going to be exciting not only for USC baseball, but for college baseball. We're really going to put a stamp on the pitching models for years to come."

Forty years after leaving campus, House is back, and don't expect any footballs in the bullpen any time soon.

>So it looks like even Tom learned from his own mistake.

[Go Cardinals]

I believe Dice-K has gone back to just throwing hundreds of pitches from the mound during his bullpens.


I thought he went back to long toss

[cosmo34]

Again, distractions abound. You could spend more time on the mound throwing a small white ball into a strikezone, OR you could spend less time doing this and more time perfecting your football tossing skills. When a batter steps into the box, which skill are you now hoping to have spent more time doing?

Which is why Clemens and Walker strongly encouraged maintaining your baseball throwing mechanics while throwing a football. It is also why you do not use it as an end-all-be-all tactic for throwing. If you do it right, it can only help you get loose and possibly help with a little bit of strength (not alot, but you're not going to get weaker, that's for sure).

And heaven forbid a kid ever goes out and has a little fun besides throwing bullpens all the time. Having fun on the side is just simply unacceptable.

[Baseball gLove]

Tom House supported Nolan Ryan with his weight lifting, football throws and long toss. Nolan Ryan pitched 27 years in the MLB, 7 No Hitters, 5,714 strikeouts and had a life time 3.19 ERA. Who are you?

After Nolan Ryan would throw the football for a few minutes as part of his warm up he would throw long toss with a baseball and then finish with a short bullpen. He also chopped wood in the off season. Perhaps this specialization you speak of, contributes to problem of pitchers going down with injuries. Pitchers used to throw a lot more and had fewer restrictions. But they also didn't have to face power hitting shortstops batting .300 either.

[StraightGrain11]

APPpitch, sounds to me like you're "Dick Mills guy"....?
Another one who knows more about pitching than the pros do...gotta love 'em. :rolleyes:

It's BASEBALL. It's throwing a little white piece of leather around between a few people. C'mon, man, you gotta have fun in this game or you will drive yourself crazy. No, throwing a football is not throwing a baseball. But throwing a football is not going to kill your baseball "career", either - which is something I don't know of anyone - who's NOT a professional - has.

And using Tim Lincecum as a "poster child" for young pitchers is a JOKE. That young man (or boy) is a freak-of-a-nature. He's a VERY VERY VERY talented and GIFTED athlete. He's the EXCEPTION - NOT the NORM.

Specificity is a great tool. It also needs to be used in that manner - as a TOOL, NOT "the law", of training.

You're right, basketball players don't shoot soccer balls - but soccer players do play with hackie-sacks. :faint: And basketball players do shoot no-look shots over-the-head from half court; they do shoot 95 footers (a court is only 94 ft long); and they do shoot "you jump over my head while I feed you the ball" shots, as well - NONE of which will ever be useful in a game. But they do it anyways. Why? To keep sane; to keep the game fun - because that's what it is: A GAME. And I'm sure if anyone ever told Roger Federer that using a badmitton raquet would allow him to hit the ball better because it would quicken his stroke and make him focus more because the hitting surface is smaller, he just might try it. And, no, Tiger Woods doesn't swing a lacrosse stick, and I wouldn't either, as a golfer - last time I checked, lacrosse used an over-the-top to slightly "submarine" motion to deliver the ball, with the hands apart - not together. :dance
Yes, I know that's not what you were getting at.

[kylebee]

He also chopped wood in the off season.

This is one of the best exercises you can do, bar none, for a person in general - not just pitchers. Talk about serious core strengthening!

Your point about Tom House makes sense, I guess. Except that he'll always be tied into Mark Prior's health.

[Baseball gLove]

This is one of the best exercises you can do, bar none, for a person in general - not just pitchers. Talk about serious core strengthening!

Your point about Tom House makes sense, I guess. Except that he'll always be tied into Mark Prior's health.

You are blaming House for Prior's collision with Giles which probably was the beginning of his shoulder problems? Or the excessive high pitch counts allowed by Dusty Baker, even after Baker was criticized for over-using Prior and Woods? Or are you blaming House for the 117-mph comeback line drive off the bat of Brad Hawpe, that gave Prior a compression fracture of his right elbow, the one he used for pitching? Is it House's fault that Prior missed 2 months in 2004 due to an injury of his Achilles tendon (ankle)?

[kylebee]

You are blaming House for Prior's collision with Giles which probably was the beginning of his shoulder problems? Or the excessive high pitch counts allowed by Dusty Baker, even after Baker was criticized for over-using Prior and Woods? Or are you blaming House for the 117-mph comeback line drive off the bat of Brad Hawpe, that gave Prior a compression fracture of his right elbow, the one he used for pitching? Is it House's fault that Prior missed 2 months in 2004 due to an injury of his Achilles tendon (ankle)?

I didn't say it was necessarily Tom House's fault. Just that he and Prior are inseparable.

[tominct]

I read this thread with some interest. I throw a football with my son and I think it's great, for a number of reasons. First, it's throwing, and it's throwing in another athletic pursuit and that increases my son's interest. There are many times he would rather throw the football thant he baseball.

Remember this, Joe Namath, John Elway, Dan Marino, were baseball draft picks. And what is one of the five tools, arm strength. They are all freaks for sure, but it does provide a bit of evidence for the value of throwing a football.

Tom

[RuthMayBond]

Again, distractions abound. You could spend more time on the mound throwing a small white ball into a strikezone, OR you could spend less time doing this and more time perfecting your football tossing skills. When a batter steps into the box, which skill are you now hoping to have spent more time doing?

Time spent doing things that are not specific to your specific sporting activity is time wasted. Time you can never reclaim.

Keep away from anything that distracts from the task at hand.
Didn't the 70s Steelers take ballet?
Didn't seem to hurt them too bad

[tom.guerry]

larger/heavier objects require more support and have the potential for stressing mechanics more.

Throwing the football does not tend to give a sore arm, however, it instead tends to make you throw ina less stressful way which means with more of a "short arm" and with a higher arm slot than most will use throing baseball.

SO you tend to keep about a 90 degree bend in the elbow (extending the arm then getting it back to near 90 is more stressful) nd you tend to get a higher arm slot via less merrygoround and more feris wheel.

the release is also less pronating for football.

throwing a round ball that is too large to palm (soccer/basketball) will also encourage the short arm and higher arm slot, but also requires more pronation to get underspin/avoid side spin.

very good along with long toss for outfield arms where you want pure underspin.

I prefer throwing the large objects becasue it enphasizes the merrygoround to ferris whell transition (see Nyman buggywhip model) which most kids do not get well.

Throw these big things with a low/long arm action and they will hurt.

[CoachHenry]

Does Tiger Woods swing a lacrosse stick?

-scott

No, but he does do motion specific exercises. If throwing a football could be considered a motion specific exercise then it is valid.

[APPpitch]

Which is why Clemens and Walker strongly encouraged maintaining your baseball throwing mechanics while throwing a football. It is also why you do not use it as an end-all-be-all tactic for throwing. If you do it right, it can only help you get loose and possibly help with a little bit of strength (not alot, but you're not going to get weaker, that's for sure).

And heaven forbid a kid ever goes out and has a little fun besides throwing bullpens all the time. Having fun on the side is just simply unacceptable.

I'm not singling you out, other pro-football tossing folks are being addressed here.

I throw a football with my fingers on the side of the ball and my hand turned in a curveball hand position. I can throw a football very well and fairly far and decently accurately, but I don't throw a fastball in this manner. Maintaining a baseball-style delivery with a football is impossible.

When it's football season, I throw a football around with my son. When it's baseball season, 9 months out of the year, we throw a baseball. Not once since I was a kid did I ever think that my football throwing skills would help my baseball throwing skills. Two completely different feels. Two completely different skill sets that taught my brain two different things.

If you choose to use a football as part of your warmup, fine. If you think it is fun to do, fine. If you think one will help the other, you are mistaken.

From what I know, no one is promoting this activity anymore. Neither House, nor Mills nor Ellis. Why? Because it's relationship to increasing velocity does not exist. And it's relationship to command never existed.

It's like asking a competitive swimmer to spend time rowing a boat. Ask a swimmer about that and watch their eyebrows turn inward.

Just more food for thought. I think the original poster has his answer.

-scott

[kylebee]

From what I know, no one is promoting this activity anymore. Neither House, nor Mills nor Ellis. Why? Because it's relationship to increasing velocity does not exist. And it's relationship to command never existed.

Marshall's students throw footballs. Just not in the way you'd think.

[StraightGrain11]

It's like asking a competitive swimmer to spend time rowing a boat. Ask a swimmer about that and watch their eyebrows turn inward.

Just more food for thought. I think the original poster has his answer.

-scott

I was a competitive swimmer for almost 15 years. I started swimming competitively when I was 4 and finished my senior year of HS. And I can honestly say that swimming, alone, kept my ENTIRE body (including my arm) in top physical condition all those years. And it would actually be more like asking a competitive swimmer to try water polo or synchronized swimming - ALL which would help in some way, shape, or form (our coach used to have us play polo at the end of our practices sometimes - it was hard/tiring as ****).

[APPpitch]

I was a competitive swimmer for almost 15 years. I started swimming competitively when I was 4 and finished my senior year of HS. And I can honestly say that swimming, alone, kept my ENTIRE body (including my arm) in top physical condition all those years. And it would actually be more like asking a competitive swimmer to try water polo or synchronized swimming - ALL which would help in some way, shape, or form (our coach used to have us play polo at the end of our practices sometimes - it was hard/tiring as ****).

The focus of my analogy would be how doing something else would have helped a swimmer to cut down their lap times? Staying "in shape", despite you already being in shape, would be a different focus. I'm sure you would agree that playing water polo was just a mental distraction and did not help you make your turns faster.

It is my understanding that Michael Phelps trained about 363 days a year swimming to prepare for the Olympics, and yet was tested among the weakest in strength tests.

-scott

[Baseball gLove]

Didn't a swim psychologist-nutritionist help Mills write his partial plagiarism of Marshall?

[StraightGrain11]

The focus of my analogy would be how doing something else would have helped a swimmer to cut down their lap times? Staying "in shape", despite you already being in shape, would be a different focus. I'm sure you would agree that playing water polo was just a mental distraction and did not help you make your turns faster.

It is my understanding that Michael Phelps trained about 363 days a year swimming to prepare for the Olympics, and yet was tested among the weakest in strength tests.

-scott

No, it didn't help my form on my turns. But it busted the crap out of my core and leg muscles, and definitely presented quite the endurance challenge - ALL extremely important in every aspect of swimming.

[Go Cardinals]

No, it didn't help my form on my turns. But it busted the crap out of my core and leg muscles, and definitely presented quite the endurance challenge - ALL extremely important in every aspect of swimming.

I would have to agree with you.

Swimming has done the same for me as it did for you. '

I think there is a lot of merit in cross training. I heard that Aaron miles used to hit a punching bag every day, and it helped him have quicker hands. Also, I think it was erik who said that they played a lot of ping pong and it helped him in college I believe it was.

Fooseball has helped my swing I think because of the whole aspect of letting the ball come to you and not go get it. Also, it strengthened my wrists. I mean there are many other activities that have helped my wrist strength.