7 yo hitting - please evaluate

[Jesse]

This is Nick, a big strong 7 yo. These were taken in his game yesterday. In the first one, he decided not to stride for some reason. He normally strides but it's not something we emphasize. This was a fairly well hit ball right to the shortstop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuVG5GuymrE

This one was a foul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQcrgTRi4Yc

Pop up to shallow center - lucky base hit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkiJB6_1ejM

He was hitting great on Saturday, really crushing the ball, all line drives. Today he didn't seem to be swinging as hard. He definitely wasn't pre-loading like we've been working on. I haven't worked with him since last week and he's starting to fall back into some of his old habits. His bat drag has improved noticeably since the beginning of the season.

Things we're working on:
Pre-loading
Swinging hard
Firing the hips towards the pitcher

What I'd like to start working on:
Weight shift - he seems to be squishing the bug a little, which is something his coach teaches (but doesn't hammer). I'd like to steer him away from that.

[LAball]

I love the behind the back bat pass. Make sure you get him into basketball in the off season.:clapping

[Baseball gLove]

Cute kid. Keep it simple. If he is consistently hitting the ball and hitting the ball hard leave him alone. Just make sure he gets lots of at bats. My 8 year old has almost no stride.

[StraightGrain11]

One thing you could try that might possibly help with his "weight shift" and/or "pre-load" is turning his back foot "in" a little bit - at least so it is square to the plate. We know, as mature athletes, that it is much easier to move our weight laterally if we do it from a square base. However, childrens' bodies havent figured this out yet, they feel more stable with the toes "out", well, because they ARE more stable this way. But it doesn't allow them to move their bodies very well.

[Mark H]

Well you've got all the time in the world and right now making sure he enjoys it is a big deal but he's standing up straight and showing bat drag. This pattern won't take him where he may want to go. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s
If you want to follow up on all this just ask for resources. First thing to do is read the stuff on the above link and follow up the links on that link.

[Nater44]

Your little dude is doing some great stuff for a 7 year old. As he gets a few more years older he will begin to gain the ability to accomplish his weight shift (pre-load) as you refer to it. It's just tricky for young guys to time the movement onto the back leg before he has to. :applaud:

[Drill]

watch his hands they seem a little high and watch him drop his hands in the first video. If you want him to have quicker hands work on lowering his hands to proper position. right now its OK because of slow pitching, but when he gets older he will fall behind because of faster pitching.



drill

[callyjr]

he seems a little jerky with the upper body. Its not that important right now, but you will want to slow down the pre-load and have the body moving forward as he is loading the upper body. That will wind up the rubber band so he can tap into that 7yr old power.

Cally

[Go Cardinals]

I love how he drops the bat after the swing:D

[Jesse]

Thanks for all the comments. I've been reading them, just haven't had time to respond.

One thing you could try that might possibly help with his "weight shift" and/or "pre-load" is turning his back foot "in" a little bit - at least so it is square to the plate. We know, as mature athletes, that it is much easier to move our weight laterally if we do it from a square base. However, childrens' bodies havent figured this out yet, they feel more stable with the toes "out", well, because they ARE more stable this way. But it doesn't allow them to move their bodies very well.
That's a great point. I've noticed the "toes out" and didn't like it, but couldn't quite put my finger on why I didn't like it, so I didn't say anything. It's definitely something I'll work with him on. We actually gave it a shot tonight, but didn't have enough time to really make any progress.

[Jesse]

Well you've got all the time in the world and right now making sure he enjoys it is a big deal but he's standing up straight and showing bat drag. This pattern won't take him where he may want to go. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s
If you want to follow up on all this just ask for resources. First thing to do is read the stuff on the above link and follow up the links on that link.

I'm aware of both issues, just haven't decided on the best way to fix them. How do you teach a 7 yo to tilt?

[Jesse]

Your little dude is doing some great stuff for a 7 year old. As he gets a few more years older he will begin to gain the ability to accomplish his weight shift (pre-load) as you refer to it. It's just tricky for young guys to time the movement onto the back leg before he has to. :applaud:

Well, when I say pre-load I'm talking about the position of his hands prior to the swing. I'd like to see them lower and further back. We've worked on it before, and he was doing pretty well for a few weeks, but he's reverted back to the old "hands next to the ear" position.

Weight shift refers to the weight moving from the back foot to the front at contact. He's got a long way to go on this one and I haven't even tried to address it yet.

[Jesse]

watch his hands they seem a little high and watch him drop his hands in the first video. If you want him to have quicker hands work on lowering his hands to proper position. right now its OK because of slow pitching, but when he gets older he will fall behind because of faster pitching.



drill

Yep, we've been working on this, you just can't tell from those clips. He tends to forget everything we've worked on when he's up to bat. I'm trying to get stuff ingrained so he does it without thinking, but we've got a ways to go.

It's tough because I'm umpiring his games this year, so I'm not really allowed to yell at him like all the other parents can.:laugh Seriously, if I could just say "hands back" or something while he's hitting that's all it would take to remind him.

[StraightGrain11]

watch his hands they seem a little high and watch him drop his hands in the first video. If you want him to have quicker hands work on lowering his hands to proper position. right now its OK because of slow pitching, but when he gets older he will fall behind because of faster pitching.



drill

The "proper position"? You mean this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2439578276_e6d0bb5391.jpg?v=0


I remember Jim Leyland talking about Magglio Ordonez a little while ago, and how "he holds his hands like a hitter."
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1289/1371876549_0fe23cb405.jpg?v=0 http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/john_donovan/04/25/guillen.ordonez/t1_ordonez.jpg
Ever since then, I have left kids, who hold their hands "a little high", alone - it's mostly been for the better; I just make sure they're not "looping" their swing too much...
So as far as the "proper postion" is concerned, they don't need to START there, they just need to GET there.

Comparison? :)

[Mark H]

I'm aware of both issues, just haven't decided on the best way to fix them. How do you teach a 7 yo to tilt?

I'm sure there are any number of ways but I use Englishbey's drills. I would keep it fun with a 7 yr old.

[Jesse]

First (and third) still: Notice how his top hand isn't gripping the bat at all. I just picked up on that. Comments? I think this could account for his relative lack of power. He's capable of crushing the ball, and has, but he's very inconsistent about it. I also picked up on a very noticeable "rebound" on the bat on some video I took of him earlier today. The ball was really moving the bat backwards when he hit it. This feels like a definite eureka moment...

Second still: His weight shift actually looks pretty good there. He's up on his toe, so his weight is on his front foot. This is from the first (no stride) swing.

Third still: Just to show the bat drag, and also illustrating again the top hand not gripping the bat. This was taken from a clip I didn't post (it was a strike).

[Jesse]

One more thing, just thinking out loud here - in that third still, it seems like letting go with his top hand is somewhat facilitating the bat drag by taking pressure off his wrist. I'm thinking if we fixed that, it might reduce the bat drag somewhat...

[StraightGrain11]

You might try working a "top-hand drill" with him. You can do it either using a "shorty bat" (as Hiddengem calls it) or with his regular bat, just choked up a little bit. Just front-toss him balls from behind a screen and let him swing away. Just make sure he is able to keep his balance while doing it. If he can't, then it's not worth it. Just let it go and try it when he is a little older and stronger. You have plenty of time. :)

From what I can see, it looks as if he's enjoying himself. Keep that going. I remember I always enjoyed working on stuff with my dad, trying to get better. But he always knew how to make it fun and get the most out of what we were doing, and I was always more competitive than anyone else I knew, so I WANTED to do it - most of the time. But not all kids are like that (I do remember, at times, him kind of "making me" do stuff. I didn't know it at the time, but I realized it, later on - even while I was still playing - that everything we worked on back then, made me much better than everyone else in those areas. He used to drill me like crazy on being very precise on location in pitching. It didn't seem like much at the time, but when I was a freshman, and was called up to make my first start on the varsity against the big cross-town rival...I ended up going 4 innings with 10 K's. And that was when it really started to hit that all the little bit of extra hard work he had "made" me put in all those years REALLY paid-off. To this day, I can still spot a ball as well as anybody I know, whether it's from 60'6" or 250' - I get a kick out of watching my players' [HS varsity] eyes light up when I can throw 3-5 balls into a 5gal bucket from 300' out...and all I can do is smile and silently thank my father for all the hard work he put into that with me :)).
Make sure he enjoys what he is doing when you're working on things, and that he is showing "natural drive" to get better at them. If neither of those two things are happening, let it go. He's getting nothing out of it. But it sounds like he's making some progress, so keep it up! :thumbsup: Good luck!

[Jesse]

Worked on his swing a little today.

We worked on getting him to drop his hands, square his feet up (instead of "toes out"), and I actually encouraged him to stride for the first time (he's always done it naturally). His stride had all but disappeared, and it really seemed to be taking his legs and hips out of the equation. I know that in some cases the stride causes problems with kids, but with him it seems the opposite is true. He needs to stride to really get the lower body involved.

Straightgrain, I appreciate your comments re: Ordonez, but in Nick's case starting with his hands up there really seems to screw with his loading pattern.

When I finally got him to do all of the above, wow! Everything came together. Not only did his swing look better, he really started crushing the ball. It's amazing how a few minor changes like that can make such a huge difference. He was amazed as well. He was looking at me like, hmm, maybe the old man does know what he's talking about. :think:

Unfortunately, getting him to do everything all at once was a challenge. I had to remind him of all three things (Check your feet! Get those hands down! Now, step into it and hit!), on every swing. Whatever I didn't remind him of, he didn't do. I think it's just going to take some repetitions to get things ingrained. I'll try to get some video of the "improvements" and post it.

[Jesse]

I love the behind the back bat pass. Make sure you get him into basketball in the off season.:clapping

I love how he drops the bat after the swing:D

Yeah, I've been watching those clips over and over and it's amazing how he does that. He actually throws the bat in front of himself and back across the baseline. He's been doing that all year and not once has he tripped on the bat, or had to jump to avoid it. Some things you just can't teach! :laugh

[Mark H]

First (and third) still: Notice how his top hand isn't gripping the bat at all. I just picked up on that. Comments? I think this could account for his relative lack of power. He's capable of crushing the ball, and has, but he's very inconsistent about it. I also picked up on a very noticeable "rebound" on the bat on some video I took of him earlier today. The ball was really moving the bat backwards when he hit it. This feels like a definite eureka moment...


I don't think so. I think the causes of the problems you see are way upstream from what you are focusing on. This is not a short story. You have some time ahead of you for learning. Great news is, you are starting and he has plenty of time. I recommend you study Englishbey's stuff.

[Jesse]

It's pretty obvious he has a long way to go, I understand that. If you think I'm on the wrong track, I'd love to know why.

When I talked about his "relative lack of power," I didn't expand on that. He's big, strong, and can generate some serious bat speed when he's of a mind to. My comment had to do with the times that his swing should have generated a mighty hit, and didn't (in terms of bat speed).

There have been other times, however, where the same swing has generated a line drive well over the outfielders. It's like the same swing is giving two drastically different results.

The fact that he's letting go with the top hand could have a lot to do with this. What I think he may be doing is unconsciously letting go of the bat as he's swinging, then trying to grab it again right before contact. When he doesn't quite make it, the result is a weaker hit. That's my theory for now anyway.

This isn't the end of the story, or the final solution, obviously. I just think the boy's hitting would improve if he held onto the bat with both hands, in addition to the other things I've mentioned above.

[Mark H]

It's pretty obvious he has a long way to go, I understand that. If you think I'm on the wrong track, I'd love to know why.

.

The why is you have a lot of study to do if you want to understand what and why and I think I would ill serve you by telling you isolated points rather than suggesting you spend a month or two studying Englishbey's materials starting with reading everything on the free side of Steve's site. If we were on a field together I'd head off into it with you but telling you this point or that point on here using words chances are you are going to misunderstand my meaning and head off down bunny trails. Not your fault or mine but rather the difficulty of describing ballistic movements that happen in the blink of an eye with words. Some have gotten pretty smart on here about the swing but separating the wheat from the chaff and making steady progress on a public board is an impressive feat IMO. A public board IS a very useful for tool for developing leads for where to study and hearing different opposing viewpoints. This board is the best baseball board for I'm aware of for that.

[LAball]

Yep, we've been working on this, you just can't tell from those clips. He tends to forget everything we've worked on when he's up to bat.

Remind him when he is on deck.

[Jesse]

That's a big part of the problem. I'm umpiring all his games, so the only time I get to talk to him is between innings, and even that I try to keep to a minimum. I've talked about it with his coach (what to say, etc.) but that's been hit or miss.

[Mark H]

Sounds like someone else needs to step up on the umpiring. You're a dad first.

[Jesse]

In our league, each team provides an umpire. Most of them are dads. Most of them don't do it two years in a row, and I'm realizing why. Half the teams in the league don't even provide umpires even though the rules clearly state they're required to, and again, I'm realizing why. Overall, it's been a great experience and I'm glad I did it. It's really helped in my understanding of the game, not just the rules but in being able to see the whole field and anticipate where the plays will be, etc.

Next year I'll be coaching his team instead (hopefully as head coach, if not I'll be an assistant). Then it'll be up to me to sucker someone...I mean find someone else to umpire. :laugh

Edit: I'd have to disagree with you on being a dad first. When I'm coaching, I'm a coach first. When I'm umpiring, I'm an umpire first. I think there are way too many coaches who are "dads first", which is a major contributor to a lot of the problems I see in rec ball. I don't even need to explain the importance of being impartial when it comes to umpiring.

[callyjr]

The "proper position"? You mean this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2439578276_e6d0bb5391.jpg?v=0


I remember Jim Leyland talking about Magglio Ordonez a little while ago, and how "he holds his hands like a hitter."
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1289/1371876549_0fe23cb405.jpg?v=0 http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/john_donovan/04/25/guillen.ordonez/t1_ordonez.jpg
Ever since then, I have left kids, who hold their hands "a little high", alone - it's mostly been for the better; I just make sure they're not "looping" their swing too much...
So as far as the "proper postion" is concerned, they don't need to START there, they just need to GET there.

Comparison? :)

the problem with allowing a 7 yr old or even 10 or 12 yr old to hold his his up high pre-launch is they don't have the strength or cordination to get into a good hitting position from this point. It doesn't matter how 1 starts as long as when at footplant they had better be in position, but I would caution worling with the younger kids like this.

Cally

[Mark H]

Edit: I'd have to disagree with you on being a dad first. When I'm coaching, I'm a coach first. When I'm umpiring, I'm an umpire first. I think there are way too many coaches who are "dads first", which is a major contributor to a lot of the problems I see in rec ball. I don't even need to explain the importance of being impartial when it comes to umpiring.

I certainly understand and agree with your point there. I'm saying you have to do what's best for your kid and that might mean you give up umping his games and be a dad or coach instead. Sounds like you are on track for that. Later after your kid is out of baseball you can give back to the program by umping then.

[Jesse]

One more thing he's doing a lot of, which I just picked up on today. He had a problem with swinging early, which we (his coach and I) thought he'd corrected. He tended to foul a lot down the third base line in the beginning of the season, but hasn't done much of that lately and is even hitting some to the opposite field.

He seems to have corrected it by slowing down his swing. He still begins his swing early, but he compensates by slowing down. You can see what I mean here (taken earlier today):
http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z305/Coach_J/?action=view&current=047.flv
It happens so slowly, you can actually see the bat deflect upwards slightly when it strikes the ball.

Here's a still - as slow as his swing is, he's still making contact way out in front:

[rkbenn]

Make sure he's having fun! Stepping or Tapping is for timing ONLY, not for power. It's not involved in the swing at all! Power comes from the ground up.

[Mark H]

Actually stepping/striding/momemtum development does play a part in power development. You have to have at least some momentum to rotate well. If you can turn a lot of momentum/big stride into rotation without crashing the system, all the better. This would be a good place for that Derek Lee clip.

Jesse, it's time for you to embark on a serious focused study of the swing. Then pick someone's program and implement it with vigor. I believe Englishbey's to be the best but anyone's would help you greatly.

[rkbenn]

[QUOTE=Mark H;1201776]Actually stepping/striding/momemtum development does play a part in power development. You have to have at least some momentum to rotate well. If you can turn a lot of momentum/big stride into rotation without crashing the system, all the better. This would be a good place for that Derek Lee clip.

It has very little affect...no great hitter steps and swings at the same time. Ask any great hitter, where do you generate your power, you will never hear from my stride...please!!!

[Mark H]

You're new at this hitting discussion stuff aren't you?

[Chris O'Leary]

Stepping or Tapping is for timing ONLY, not for power. It's not involved in the swing at all! Power comes from the ground up.

This is wrong.

The weight shift helps to power the rotation of the hips.

[Erik]

One more thing he's doing a lot of, which I just picked up on today. He had a problem with swinging early, which we (his coach and I) thought he'd corrected. He tended to foul a lot down the third base line in the beginning of the season, but hasn't done much of that lately and is even hitting some to the opposite field.

He seems to have corrected it by slowing down his swing. He still begins his swing early, but he compensates by slowing down. You can see what I mean here (taken earlier today):
http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z305/Coach_J/?action=view&current=047.flv
It happens so slowly, you can actually see the bat deflect upwards slightly when it strikes the ball.

Here's a still - as slow as his swing is, he's still making contact way out in front:


Hi,

IMO this player is to close to the plate to hit. The hitter needs to be off the plate some. This will allow for the inside pitch to be out over the plate.




EL,

[Mark H]

The weight shift helps to power the rotation of the hips.

Hopefully. Does in good hitters anyway.

[callyjr]

Actually stepping/striding/momemtum development does play a part in power development. You have to have at least some momentum to rotate well. If you can turn a lot of momentum/big stride into rotation without crashing the system, all the better. This would be a good place for that Derek Lee clip.

Jesse, it's time for you to embark on a serious focused study of the swing. Then pick someone's program and implement it with vigor. I believe Englishbey's to be the best but anyone's would help you greatly.


all have good and bad to them, to stay with just one doesn't seem fair. I think the best place to start is probably Epstein as he has 2 core drills that will get you started. then you can add to them. With Englishby your gonna have to learn body movements and teach that to a 7yr old, not the best advise IMO. plus Englishby does not have any current players playing in the pros does he?. some of the other guru's do like Epstein. :)

[callyjr]

Here is my 7yr old. Epstein trained with a little extra tip and rip added. This was a game tonight. He plays in minors LL 9/10's hitting 3rd in the division this year. Yes, 3rd in the division. He was 2 for 2 tonight both shots. notice where the hands start, notice the pre-load movement with the hands as the body is moving forward. Still things to work on, but he is hitting well and I am letting him hit without messing with him, this is the first video I have taken all year.

again Epstein trained, a great place to start IMO

http://hitrotational.com/kalebLL08.7yr%20old%20rip%20to%20center.mov

cally

[callyjr]

[QUOTE=Mark H;1201776]Actually stepping/striding/momemtum development does play a part in power development. You have to have at least some momentum to rotate well. If you can turn a lot of momentum/big stride into rotation without crashing the system, all the better. This would be a good place for that Derek Lee clip.

It has very little affect...no great hitter steps and swings at the same time. Ask any great hitter, where do you generate your power, you will never hear from my stride...please!!!

the stride helps create the stretch that allows the lower half to unwind like a rubber band, without it we would not see those 400 foot bombs.

rkbenn, Your needing to do a little studying before spouting off the mouth to much.

Cally

[StraightGrain11]

plus Englishby does not have any current players playing in the pros does he?. some of the other guru's do like Epstein. :)
When 7 yr olds start playing "pro ball", I'll be sure to take that fact into account. But as long as Mr. Englishby is having success with 7 yr olds (or whatever age), I'm not going to hold the fact that he doesn't have any "current pro deciples" against him. If he is having success with persons in the age group of [someone's] interest, I think THAT, in and of itself, makes him "credible". :)

[callyjr]

When 7 yr olds start playing "pro ball", I'll be sure to take that fact into account. But as long as Mr. Englishby is having success with 7 yr olds (or whatever age), I'm not going to hold the fact that he doesn't have any "current pro deciples" against him. If he is having success with persons in the age group of [someone's] interest, I think THAT, in and of itself, makes him "credible". :)

does it. how hard is it to get a 7yr old to hit a ball. come on. they are sponges and will listen to everything you say, but if you want long term success it has to go past Englishby right, he has not proven to have any one long term has he? I am all ears and will give respect where respect is due. Do tell if you know of someone. I am not bashing Steve by anymeans here, I just am saying when you have others that have had success at all levels that maybe thats place to look at getting your start. common sense right?

cally

[StraightGrain11]

does it. how hard is it to get a 7yr old to hit a ball. come on. they are sponges and will listen to everything you say, but if you want long term success it has to go past Englishby right, he has not proven to have any one long term has he? I am all ears and will give respect where respect is due. Do tell if you know of someone. I am not bashing Steve by anymeans here, I just am saying when you have others that have had success at all levels that maybe thats place to look at getting your start. common sense right?

cally

No, I don't know of anyone, personally, who uses Steve's material, and I, myself, have never seen ANY of it. What I am saying is this...

7 yr olds do not have the abilities professional ball players have, and therefore, should not be expected to understand ALL the concepts they do (and are being taught by their instructors). I am also saying it takes a lot more than a "good hitting coach" to get a player to have "long term" (I suspect you mean college or beyond, by this) success. The player must bring the natural athletic ability [needed for that kind of success] to the table to work with. If all it took was a good hitting coach, there'd be a lot more teams, because we'd need a lot more positions for a lot more players.
I gauge "success" by what the player is doing RIGHT NOW. If he his is succeeding right now, and you want to put that success on the instructor, then the instructor is successful. If you don't want to consider a player a "success story" until he is successful "long term", that's fine also. But if that is the case, then NO ONE has any right to be talking about their 12 yr old's "success" [this season] - as by THAT definition, they haven't had any yet. And since no parent (I hope) will ever think like that, I think we can throw that out.

So, what that sums up to is...if what an instructor is teaching my son/daughter is helping them, and making them better, I don't care what their other students are doing. Because the one I care most about - my son/daughter - is successful. And to me, THAT's what matters most. I'm not saying it doesn't look good to have pro hitters on your resume, that's awesome - but it's not everything. :)

[Jake Patterson]

plus Englishby does not have any current players playing in the pros does he?. some of the other guru's do like Epstein. :)
I don't think Steve boasts of this so I feel this is an unreasonable statement. What Steve has done is analyzed what the best do biologically and translated that into something that can be taught. I have had kids make it to the pros and college ball, but I would not state I had much to do with that.

[Jake Patterson]

does it. how hard is it to get a 7yr old to hit a ball. come on. they are sponges and will listen to everything you say, but if you want long term success it has to go past Englishby right, he has not proven to have any one long term has he? I am all ears and will give respect where respect is due. Do tell if you know of someone. I am not bashing Steve by anymeans here, I just am saying when you have others that have had success at all levels that maybe thats place to look at getting your start. common sense right?

callyCally, for years coaches/dads have listened to instructors who tell them the wrong things to teach. Even with bad information some players become very successfull, some figure it out later in life, most will never have a shot, a few, a small few might have gone further if taught the right things at seven.

[callyjr]

Cally, for years coaches/dads have listened to instructors who tell them the wrong things to teach. Even with bad information some players become very successfull, some figure it out later in life, most will never have a shot, a few, a small few might have gone further if taught the right things at seven.

Sure Jake, I understand what your saying, but to continue to support a GURU that has no professional success to speak of, I have to question that. Anyone can help a 7yr old hit the ball, they usually need reps and then they will get better. Not saying what Steve is teaching is not helping the kids, its just a matter of fact that other gurus have also helped young kids, but with a swing that has also helped young men bet paid to play the game. I am sure meeting Steve in person I could and would learn a ton from him. I am just getting tired of seeing you all promote the guy so much without seeing some success at a higher level. If steve is teaching the right thing at 7 now then why don't we see kids getting paid with his stamp on them. Ya really gotta ask yourself down deep if maybe He is not the guru you all think he is. Maybe he is, but I would have to push new dads and kids to someone that has shown me the money already.

Cally

[Jesse]

I appreciate the advice regarding gurus, and believe me, that's on the agenda. I fully intend to invest in some higher level stuff in the very near future. I'd also love to be able to spend 6 months in Tibet learning the art of the swing before our next backyard hitting session, but he needs my help now.

Here are the two basic issues as I see them, not counting the bat drag which is more or less a given at this age:


His timing is off.
He's not hitting with any power, at least not consistently. Keep in mind he's 4'7" 94 lbs. with strength to match his size. He should be hitting the ball harder than he is. Obviously there are parts of the chain that aren't getting utilized properly. I realize he's only 7 and I'm not looking for the "ultimate" solution, I just want to help him go from the level he's at now to the next level.


Here are my solutions:


Start with the hands lower and back for a better pre-load.
Wait on the ball longer, to promote a quicker swing.
Use the hips.
Grip the bat with both hands during the swing. Possibly promote more of a two-handed follow through?


I don't see the weight shift as a huge problem at this point - my gut tells me it will improve as we continue to iron out the above. I also haven't seen a viable way to address bat drag (and don't think it's a priority until we deal with the above) so I'm letting it go for now.

Am I wrong? Do you see something I'm missing? If I begin to emphasize these areas, am I doing harm? Promoting future bad habits? Ignoring present bad habits? Or am I on the right track?

[callyjr]

I appreciate the advice regarding gurus, and believe me, that's on the agenda. I fully intend to invest in some higher level stuff in the very near future. I'd also love to be able to spend 6 months in Tibet learning the art of the swing before our next backyard hitting session, but he needs my help now.

Here are the two basic issues as I see them, not counting the bat drag which is more or less a given at this age:


His timing is off.
He's not hitting with any power, at least not consistently. Keep in mind he's 4'7" 94 lbs. with strength to match his size. He should be hitting the ball harder than he is. Obviously there are parts of the chain that aren't getting utilized properly. I realize he's only 7 and I'm not looking for the "ultimate" solution, I just want to help him go from the level he's at now to the next level.


Here are my solutions:


Start with the hands lower and back for a better pre-load.
Wait on the ball longer, to promote a quicker swing.
Use the hips.
Grip the bat with both hands during the swing. Possibly promote more of a two-handed follow through?


I don't see the weight shift as a huge problem at this point - my gut tells me it will improve as we continue to iron out the above. I also haven't seen a viable way to address bat drag (and don't think it's a priority until we deal with the above) so I'm letting it go for now.

Am I wrong? Do you see something I'm missing? If I begin to emphasize these areas, am I doing harm? Promoting future bad habits? Ignoring present bad habits? Or am I on the right track?


What harm can you do getting quality time with your son. If he gets better at the same time its a bonus. I think those are good places to start. the more reps he gets the better he will get. As long as he is hitting the ball your in good shape. The power will come when the cordination catches up and it will.

Cally

[LClifton]

Jesse,
Both your issues and solutions (lists) are good.:applaud:

The timing one is huge, IMO.
When they wait longer,
execute quicker,
the mechanics usually look pretty dang good.
And,,,from looking at your plan, I would say that you give your son a solid chance of serious improvement regarding timing.
He's not hitting with any power, at least not consistently.
There is only one word to add to that, (given yours and his desire)---YET!
Am I wrong? Do you see something I'm missing? If I begin to emphasize these areas, am I doing harm? Promoting future bad habits? Ignoring present bad habits? Or am I on the right track?
No
No
No
No
Yes

[Jake Patterson]

Sure Jake, I understand what your saying, but to continue to support a GURU that has no professional success to speak of, I have to question that.
You would have to come to the World Baseball Convention and listen to what some of the pros teach to see how irrelevant getting someone to the pros can be.
Anyone can help a 7yr old hit the ball, they usually need reps and then they will get better. Not saying what Steve is teaching is not helping the kids, its just a matter of fact that other gurus have also helped young kids, but with a swing that has also helped young men bet paid to play the game. I am sure meeting Steve in person I could and would learn a ton from him. I am just getting tired of seeing you all promote the guy so much without seeing some success at a higher level.
My recommendations come after more than two decades of searching for something that makes sense. And it's only just that - a recommendation.
If steve is teaching the right thing at 7 now then why don't we see kids getting paid with his stamp on them. Ya really gotta ask yourself down deep if maybe He is not the guru you all think he is. Maybe he is, but I would have to push new dads and kids to someone that has shown me the money already. CallyThat's is your prerogative as a parent. Sometimes we learn more from the search than the discovery.

[callyjr]

You would have to come to the World Baseball Convention and listen to what some of the pros teach to see how irrelevant getting someone to the pros can be.

My recommendations come after more than two decades of searching for something that makes sense. And it's only just that - a recommendation.
That's is your prerogative as a parent. Sometimes we learn more from the search than the discovery.

to simply dismiss Epstein is unfair to him is it not. Epstein does have success with the youth kids and as well as the higher end athletes. Because I don't support your views on guru's does not mean I don't respect your guru, I just don' think he is the best choice in the market. Again if I am choosing I choose Epstein every time. The track record speaks for itself, His name gets mentioned every year to be hired as a MLB hitting coach, but he doesn't want the job as it would mean he would have to leave the golf course.

[Jake Patterson]

to simply dismiss Epstein is unfair to him is it not. Epstein does have success with the youth kids and as well as the higher end athletes. Because I don't support your views on guru's does not mean I don't respect your guru, I just don' think he is the best choice in the market. Again if I am choosing I choose Epstein every time. The track record speaks for itself, His name gets mentioned every year to be hired as a MLB hitting coach, but he doesn't want the job as it would mean he would have to leave the golf course.Again, a recommendation is only that - a recommendation.

[callyjr]

Again, a recommendation is only that - a recommendation.
and again I would choose Epstein

[Jake Patterson]

and again I would choose EpsteinMike is not a bad choice

[Jesse]

The season ended a couple weeks ago, and he had basketball camp last week, so we haven't done a whole lot of baseball. Tonight we had a little heart-to-heart about what his goals are for next season. Basically, he's decided he wants to be the best hitter and fielder on his team. I told him that I could help him achieve that, but it will take work, and it may not always be fun. I told him the only way he's going to improve is through repetition, and there may be drills that he won't always like. I asked him if he was willing to commit to 2-3 days a week of hard work to achieve his goals. His response - "Can we start tonight?" :nod:

So here's what we did tonight. It was kind of unorganized - just some drills I've been thinking about to target specific areas, mixed in with some fun stuff. Still trying to feel my way through and find the right approach here, and keep it fun at the same time.


Started off like we always do, playing catch. After we warmed up, I gradually moved back until he was throwing the equivalent of third to first (roughly 65'). He was able to make the throw accurately about 60% of the time, so his throwing has improved. In fact, once he got it dialed in he probably improved to more like 80%, but we didn't do it long enough to really say for sure. He's got plenty of arm strength to make the throw, it's just a matter of accuracy at this point.
Next we did some tee work. I started off with a drill that I've been thinking will help get his hips more involved. I took a broom and had him hold it across his chest with the handle sticking out, and had him hit a big plastic ball off the tee with the broom handle. We did 20 of these.
After that we worked on fielding grounders with the proper mechanics. He has a really hard time getting his butt down and his head up - he tends to keep his legs too straight and bend more from the waist, and catch the ball in between his feet instead of out in front. We made some progress on this tonight but we have a ways to go. We may have to use TG Coach's method and get out a milk crate for him to sit on, just so he can "feel" what he's supposed to be doing.
After that we went back to hitting off the tee, with a real bat this time. I had him hit the big plastic ball some more, focusing on getting the hips through, and also incorporated a two-handed follow through. He's really struggling with the two-handed follow through. My purpose for using it is, #1, to help him stay more in control of himself on his follow through (not shown on the videos I've posted - when he misses, he tends to spin around, and has fallen over a few times), and #2, to force him to grip the bat with both hands. I'm not 100% sure moving to a two-handed follow through is the right solution (he's sooo much more comfortable with one-handed), but we're just experimenting.
We finished up playing more catch, then called it a night.


He seemed to enjoy himself the entire time. He's more receptive to "coaching" now than he's ever been - seems willing to just buckle down and do the work, and he seems to have faith that I know what I'm doing. He had a big smile on his face when we were done so I'd say it went pretty well.

[mudvnine]

and again I would choose Epstein

Funny how these guru things go . . . couple months ago when I started here, I mentioned the teachings/philosophies of Dave Hudgens and pretty much got my fanny handed to me.

This is a guy who in his own way (they're all different, are they not?) actually teaches P-C-R, using the hips to drive the swing, keeping short to and through the ball, weight transfer, extension and follow through; not to mention the mental approach to hitting (the other 40% very rarely mentioned here) . . .

. . . has spent the past 16 years TEACHING THE PROS (not just "potential" ones), yet from the respect he got here, you'd think he was trying to guys to swing from behind their backs or something.

Heck, after the first week, I figured there was no sense in letting his name be drug through the mud by some guys who obviously never swung a bat in their life or those who it is clear have never tried to teach their "quantum physics of hitting" philosophies to 9 and 10 year olds, so I stopped sharing his HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL works, becasue I got tired of defending the obvious (I didn't have the extended video library of minutia and graphics workshop facility) and finally just didn't figure they were deserved here anyhow.

So am sure we can all line up behind our favorite guru and defend their various teachings, but to bash another guru without fully understanding ALL of his techniques is pretty sad.

I have enjoyed reading the different ideas presented by the various camps here and now have Yeager's DVDs on order and when I've digested Chris' material, I will then get Epstein's stuff . . . although I have already contacted a local Epstein certified instructor and look forward to meeting with him as soon as we can coordinate our schedules.

I look forward to sharing ideas with him and I'm sure learning some new things that will add to my arsenal and share with my hitters, just making them all the better.

Not yet ready to declare "I know it all", by bashing the other "gurus" who in my opinion have paid their dues and whether we agree with them or not, deserve our respect.

.

[callyjr]

Funny how these guru things go . . . couple months ago when I started here, I mentioned the teachings/philosophies of Dave Hudgens and pretty much got my fanny handed to me.

This is a guy who in his own way (they're all different, are they not?) actually teaches P-C-R, using the hips to drive the swing, keeping short to and through the ball, weight transfer, extension and follow through; not to mention the mental approach to hitting (the other 40% very rarely mentioned here) . . .

. . . has spent the past 16 years TEACHING THE PROS (not just "potential" ones), yet from the respect he got here, you'd think he was trying to guys to swing from behind their backs or something.

Heck, after the first week, I figured there was no sense in letting his name be drug through the mud by some guys who obviously never swung a bat in their life or those who it is clear have never tried to teach their "quantum physics of hitting" philosophies to 9 and 10 year olds, so I stopped sharing his HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL works, becasue I got tired of defending the obvious (I didn't have the extended video library of minutia and graphics workshop facility) and finally just didn't figure they were deserved here anyhow.

So am sure we can all line up behind our favorite guru and defend their various teachings, but to bash another guru without fully understanding ALL of his techniques is pretty sad.

I have enjoyed reading the different ideas presented by the various camps here and now have Yeager's DVDs on order and when I've digested Chris' material, I will then get Epstein's stuff . . . although I have already contacted a local Epstein certified instructor and look forward to meeting with him as soon as we can coordinate our schedules.

I look forward to sharing ideas with him and I'm sure learning some new things that will add to my arsenal and share with my hitters, just making them all the better.

Not yet ready to declare "I know it all", by bashing the other "gurus" who in my opinion have paid their dues and whether we agree with them or not, deserve our respect.

.

I looked at Dave Hudgens prior to Epstein, I sent back his 2nd Dvd before even looking at Epstein. he wasn't for me, but i am sure can help most 9/10 yr olds.

Cally

[mudvnine]

I looked at Dave Hudgens prior to Epstein, I sent back his 2nd Dvd before even looking at Epstein. he wasn't for me, but i am sure can help most 9/10 yr olds. . .

Cally

... and let me help several of my hitters into the college ranks, including my son, so I'm pretty pleased. I forgot, did you say you had personally helped kids into the pros or college ranks or are you just working with your own son?

I am interested in the Epstein stuff, some pretty interesting things that I think I could incorporate into some of my lessons for certain kids.

[Mark H]

As always, compare everything anyone tells you to slow motion video of the best in the world.

Now, about Hudgens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBMwoSK2KlM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24hqXjSCsNk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwKc4xU6Sx4

I've seen a lot worse and sure you would expect short vids like these to be shallow and incomplete but just a quick skim through the three leads me to ask "reach with the front foot"? "Down through the ball"?

Hudgens, Epstein etc all deserve a measure of respect for their resume BUT, you can find plenty of big resumes who disagree with each other. When Epstein and Slaught debated in front of a crowd awhile back, they didn't have much of anything for each other. Certainly not agreement. They are both ex pros. Both claim to use video of ML hitters to figure out what to do. Bottom line, you are going to have to decide for yourself who is right. I suggest using the test in the first sentence of this post. It's not a perfect test for reasons we could have a couple of other threads about...but it's the best I know of for average dad to figure out which of the resumed disagreeing experts is correct.

I should add, the only one, by my eye, I've not found to be wanting in terms of this test is Englishbey. But opinions vary. You will have to decide for yourself.

[mudvnine]

As always, compare everything anyone tells you to slow motion video of the best in the world.

Now, about Hudgens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBMwoSK2KlM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24hqXjSCsNk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwKc4xU6Sx4

I've seen a lot worse and sure you would expect short vids like these to be shallow and incomplete but just a quick skim through the three leads me to ask "reach with the front foot"? "Down through the ball"?

Hudgens, Epstein etc all deserve a measure of respect for their resume BUT, you can find plenty of big resumes who disagree with each other. When Epstein and Slaught debated in front of a crowd awhile back, they didn't have much of anything for each other. Certainly not agreement. They are both ex pros. Both claim to use video of ML hitters to figure out what to do. Bottom line, you are going to have to decide for yourself who is right. I suggest using the test in the first sentence of this post. It's not a perfect test for reasons we could have a couple of other threads about...but it's the best I know of for average dad to figure out which of the resumed disagreeing experts is correct.

I should add, the only one, by my eye, I've not found to be wanting in terms of this test is Englishbey. But opinions vary. You will have to decide for yourself.

Thank you Mark, you have again confirmed my thoughts when I posted "So am sure we can all line up behind our favorite guru and defend their various teachings, but to bash another guru without fully understanding ALL of his techniques is pretty sad." as to so many here discussing other "gurus" in a vacuum.

The "reach with the front foot" that you mention is a mental cue to teach hitters that the stride is to get the weight back in the loading sequence and not to move the weight forward towards the pitcher as many hitters (especially linear ones) do during the stride sequence.

Also, the "Down through the ball"? you mention is again a mental cue to get the hitter "short to the ball" in the initial launch phase of the swing.

Look at what the hitter in the video does with his swing plane and tell me if you really think his is actually swinging done through the ball or if because of his weight transfer and tilt taught elsewhere in the program, does not give him a slight upward swing prior to contact and through extension.

As far as Englishbey, last week he PM'd me agreeing with things I had posted and some other observations he had about things here on the board.

I wrote him back and thanked him for his nice words and also wrote this:
I am a Dave Hudgens certified instructor (2003) and have based my teachings off of that and I'm happy to say my students have been successful with it, but I'm always looking to learn, to find something said in a different manner or approach that may better my lessons and help my hitters, this is why I was looked into your material.

I discussed some other swing related things, and ended with this:

Thanks in advance, I look forward to hearing from you,
Dave
BTW, are you going to be out in the SoCal area anytime soon, would love to attend one of your clinics?

Now although I’ve seen him logged in here several times since then, he has never responded back, for what ever reason, but I’ve thought the Hudgens reference might have had something to do with it. . .

Like I said before, I'm "Not yet ready to declare "I know it all", by bashing the other "gurus" who in my opinion have paid their dues", but I sure thought it would have been nice if Steve was able to write back to simply "talk hitting", since he in fact initiated the conversation in the first place.

If you're interested in the same, PM me and I'd be more then happy to discuss the Hudgen's teachings as they may or may not relate to Englishbey's, but like I said earlier, I "just didn't (don't) figure they were (are) deserved here", so I will not discuss/defend them in open forum any longer.

Finally, when you say, "As always, compare everything anyone tells you to slow motion video of the best in the world", Dave uses drills, cues, mental instruction AND VIDEO to actually produce many of the swings of the "best in the world", but if you are not be interested in what an actual MLB hitting instructor is teaching to the PROS, that's your choice . . . more power to you.

All the best,
MV9

[Mark H]

The "reach with the front foot" that you mention is a mental cue to teach hitters that the stride is to get the weight back in the loading sequence and not to move the weight forward towards the pitcher as many hitters (especially linear ones) do during the stride sequence.

This is not what I see looking at video of elite hitters. I see elite hitters understanding how to transfer forward momentum into rotation. The oft posted Derek Lee clip is a good example. Mantle would be at one end of the momentum development spectrum. Pujols would be an example of someone who uses less momentum into rotation. As Nyman said, you don't have to have a lot of momentum to rotate well, but you do have to have some. All elite hitters have at least some. Load back? Sure, or start back, but elite hitters DO develop forward momentum/move the weight forward into rotation. Middle of the order hitters quickly stabilize the front hip joint not letting it move forward during the swing itself unless of course they get fooled and the swing becomes a salvage job. Or perhaps this all makes sense to you and I misunderstood you.


Also, the "Down through the ball"? you mention is again a mental cue to get the hitter "short to the ball" in the initial launch phase of the swing.

Then it should be presented as a cue lest dads everywhere teach something stupid.


Look at what the hitter in the video does with his swing plane and tell me if you really think his is actually swinging done through the ball or if because of his weight transfer and tilt taught elsewhere in the program, does not give him a slight upward swing prior to contact and through extension.

Of course. That's how good hitters hit regardless of instruction. I didn't see him reaching with the foot either.


As far as Englishbey, last week he PM'd me agreeing with things I had posted and some other observations he had about things here on the board.

I wrote him back and thanked him for his nice words and also wrote this:
I am a Dave Hudgens certified instructor (2003) and have based my teachings off of that and I'm happy to say my students have been successful with it, but I'm always looking to learn, to find something said in a different manner or approach that may better my lessons and help my hitters, this is why I was looked into your material.

I discussed some other swing related things, and ended with this:

Thanks in advance, I look forward to hearing from you,
Dave
BTW, are you going to be out in the SoCal area anytime soon, would love to attend one of your clinics?

Now although I’ve seen him logged in here several times since then, he has never responded back, for what ever reason, but I’ve thought the Hudgens reference might have had something to do with it. . .

He's been out of town.



Finally, when you say, "As always, compare everything anyone tells you to slow motion video of the best in the world", Dave uses drills, cues, mental instruction AND VIDEO to actually produce many of the swings of the "best in the world", but if you are not be interested in what an actual MLB hitting instructor is teaching to the PROS, that's your choice . . . more power to you.

All the best,
MV9

I was interested. Got some of his stuff years ago and it didn't pass the test. But maybe he's modified things since or maybe I've gotten smarter and would think better of him now. It's been many years. Non reality cues are fine but failing to differentiate between cues and reality creates confusion and bad teaching from those who take the cues literally. And my test is not about using video to create good hitters. Start with enough high quality athletes and anyone can produce good hitters. My test is about comparing the words and teaching of swing instructors to slow motion video of the best in the world as a truth detector. Just comparing resumes is not nearly enough since the highly resumed instructors often teach different things and think the other guru is full of crap.

[mudvnine]

Or perhaps this all makes sense to you and I misunderstood you.

Yes, you misunderstood me and Dave . . . but that's OK, keep posting misrepresentations of other hitting instructors in an an attempt to make yourself feel better and justify to yourself that you made the right choice.

Then it should be presented as a cue lest dads everywhere teach something stupid.

"Dads everywhere" should get and learn the whole program, not just swipe snippets off of Youtube, in an attempt to invalidate a system. Must say though, I did get a good laugh at this classic you posted . . . thanks.

Of course. That's how good hitters hit regardless of instruction. I didn't see him reaching with the foot either.

Of course you didn't, because Dave does not produce "cardboard cutout" hitters . . . He adjusts to the hitter instead of having the hitter adjusting to him. This hitter uses a different technique taught elsewhere in the program to get proper weight shift loading prior to the swing.

There are different ways to accomplish the same thing depending on someone's comfort level to a particular task, but most instructors have only ONE WAY to hit and force their hitters to that mold whether it works for that individual or not.

Ever notice how not ALL MLBers look the exactly same at the plate, but manage in their own way to get to certain similar positions throughout their swings.

If you think that a certain instructor teaches the ONLY way to hit, then that's your business, I tend to have an open mind and try learn from many in an attempt to widen my horizons and tailor my lessons to the individual needs of my hitters . . . unfortunately, I haven't been given the opportunity to train robots, who are capable of doing everything exactly the same.

He's been out of town.

But he's logged on here numerous times for extended periods since I wrote back to him.

I was interested. Got some of his stuff years ago and it didn't pass the test. But maybe he's modified things since or maybe I've gotten smarter and would think better of him now.

You may have been interested at one time, but quite honestly you sound pretty closed-minded about anyone or any technique other then that of your favorite.

It's been many years. Non reality cues are fine but failing to differentiate between cues and reality creates confusion and bad teaching from those who take the cues literally.

Again, without having the FULL PROGRAM, how can you say that Dave is "failing to differentiate between cues" that are reality or "non reality" and that he "creates confusion and bad teaching" . . . I think it's more you trying to justify your own lessons and quite literally, just talking out another part of your anatomy.

And my test is not about using video to create good hitters. Start with enough high quality athletes and anyone can produce good hitters. My test is about comparing the words and teaching of swing instructors to slow motion video of the best in the world as a truth detector.

I can't tell you how many video comparisons we went through during our certification course and the nice part was the Dave was able to give us detailed drills, cues (reality and non reality ;) ), and hitting philosophies in order to get our hitters on the right track to those swings and tailor lessons to them accordingly.

Just comparing resumes is not nearly enough since the highly resumed instructors often teach different things and think the other guru is full of crap.

Not comparing resumes or instructors for that matter (find where I have ever talked down about any of the “gurus” or their teachings), but I find it interesting how someone who “walks the walk” can be so easily discounted by a guy(s) who admittedly don’t understand or haven’t taken the time to completely learn or comprehend his teachings and techniques. . . baffling :disbelief:


MV9

[StraightGrain11]

The season ended a couple weeks ago, and he had basketball camp last week, so we haven't done a whole lot of baseball. Tonight we had a little heart-to-heart about what his goals are for next season. Basically, he's decided he wants to be the best hitter and fielder on his team. I told him that I could help him achieve that, but it will take work, and it may not always be fun. I told him the only way he's going to improve is through repetition, and there may be drills that he won't always like. I asked him if he was willing to commit to 2-3 days a week of hard work to achieve his goals. His response - "Can we start tonight?" :nod:

So here's what we did tonight. It was kind of unorganized - just some drills I've been thinking about to target specific areas, mixed in with some fun stuff. Still trying to feel my way through and find the right approach here, and keep it fun at the same time.


Started off like we always do, playing catch. After we warmed up, I gradually moved back until he was throwing the equivalent of third to first (roughly 65'). He was able to make the throw accurately about 60% of the time, so his throwing has improved. In fact, once he got it dialed in he probably improved to more like 80%, but we didn't do it long enough to really say for sure. He's got plenty of arm strength to make the throw, it's just a matter of accuracy at this point.
Next we did some tee work. I started off with a drill that I've been thinking will help get his hips more involved. I took a broom and had him hold it across his chest with the handle sticking out, and had him hit a big plastic ball off the tee with the broom handle. We did 20 of these.
After that we worked on fielding grounders with the proper mechanics. He has a really hard time getting his butt down and his head up - he tends to keep his legs too straight and bend more from the waist, and catch the ball in between his feet instead of out in front. We made some progress on this tonight but we have a ways to go. We may have to use TG Coach's method and get out a milk crate for him to sit on, just so he can "feel" what he's supposed to be doing.
I've had LLs do the same with the milk crate - great teaching tool. It forces them to get their butts "down", heads "up", and hands "out" (as they cannot bring them "back into/under their bodies" because that's where the crate is :)) - as you said, it will allow him to "FEEL" his body doing things properly.

After that we went back to hitting off the tee, with a real bat this time. I had him hit the big plastic ball some more, focusing on getting the hips through, and also incorporated a two-handed follow through. He's really struggling with the two-handed follow through. My purpose for using it is, #1, to help him stay more in control of himself on his follow through (not shown on the videos I've posted - when he misses, he tends to spin around, and has fallen over a few times), and #2, to force him to grip the bat with both hands. I'm not 100% sure moving to a two-handed follow through is the right solution (he's sooo much more comfortable with one-handed), but we're just experimenting.
We finished up playing more catch, then called it a night.


He seemed to enjoy himself the entire time. He's more receptive to "coaching" now than he's ever been - seems willing to just buckle down and do the work, and he seems to have faith that I know what I'm doing. He had a big smile on his face when we were done so I'd say it went pretty well.
I'd say your doing great - keep it up! :thumbsup:

[tom.guerry]

mud -

there are 2 different blueprints/patterns that are inevitably mixed when not actively looked for and learned, BUT most good instructors with MLB experience are familiar with the MLB pattern and that s wha they are describing, even though they make it sound like they are different/unique.

epstein, willams, lau sr and jr, dusty baker, slaught. hudgens.mankin,etc are all describing the same type swing with different terminology and emphasis and mixture of feel vs surface apearance.

englishbey follows nyman who has specialized in the other blueprint/pattern which is not successful in MLB. the things englishbey and his mentor nyman emphasize are will often prevent developing the MLB swing.

[Mark H]

Yes, you misunderstood me and Dave . . . but that's OK, keep posting misrepresentations of other hitting instructors in an an attempt to make yourself feel better and justify to yourself that you made the right choice.

I certainly don't intend to do that. That's why I went to listen, again, to the man himself. In fact, my first comment was, I've seen worse, in fact, I've seen much worse. Some of the comments raised some concern and questions, but you will notice I didn't call him an idiot based on those three youtube clips, but I do have some concerns. So exactly what did I misunderstand?



"Dads everywhere" should get and learn the whole program, not just swipe snippets off of Youtube, in an attempt to invalidate a system. Must say though, I did get a good laugh at this classic you posted . . . thanks.

The comments off youtube were intended as the start of a dialogue and they were, after all, his words. Do you or do you not think the swing down cue can be a problem as it propagates from one dad to another? Should we not make it clear it's a cue rather than reality?



Of course you didn't, because Dave does not produce "cardboard cutout" hitters . . . He adjusts to the hitter instead of having the hitter adjusting to him. This hitter uses a different technique taught elsewhere in the program to get proper weight shift loading prior to the swing.

Good, I'd suggest focusing on that one and dump the reaching with no forward momentum idea.

There are different ways to accomplish the same thing depending on someone's comfort level to a particular task, but most instructors have only ONE WAY to hit and force their hitters to that mold whether it works for that individual or not.

Sure. No heartburn there.

Ever notice how not ALL MLBers look the exactly same at the plate, but manage in their own way to get to certain similar positions throughout their swings.

Sure. One of my oft repeated points over the years.

If you think that a certain instructor teaches the ONLY way to hit, then that's your business, I tend to have an open mind and try learn from many in an attempt to widen my horizons and tailor my lessons to the individual needs of my hitters . . . unfortunately, I haven't been given the opportunity to train robots, who are capable of doing everything exactly the same.

Your initial assumption in the first sentence of this paragraph is incorrect so I guess we are on the same page on this point.



But he's logged on here numerous times for extended periods since I wrote back to him.

Well I'll ask him.



You may have been interested at one time, but quite honestly you sound pretty closed-minded about anyone or any technique other then that of your favorite.

Yes I'm sure it sounds like that but I've been through a lot, studied a lot and considered a lot. I'm open to argument but you better bring video of MLB hitters to prove your point. Lately I've been convinced Yeager may have some good stuff. I'm open to reviewing Dave's stuff again but I remember being unimpressed back in the day and he sure doesn't have a rep among the people who compare instructors' words to video of elite hitters, BUT, I am very open to hear otherwise. Just remember the video of elite hitters.



Again, without having the FULL PROGRAM, how can you say that Dave is "failing to differentiate between cues" that are reality or "non reality" and that he "creates confusion and bad teaching"

I"m not saying that. I'm saying he didn't on that clip in reply to your contention Dave understands this and just uses the cue to achieve a result. I assume you are absolutely right about that and I'm glad to hear it.

. . . I think it's more you trying to justify your own lessons and quite literally, just talking out another part of your anatomy.

Those who disagree with you are not necessarily doing so in bad faith.



I can't tell you how many video comparisons we went through during our certification course and the nice part was the Dave was able to give us detailed drills, cues (reality and non reality ;) ), and hitting philosophies in order to get our hitters on the right track to those swings and tailor lessons to them accordingly.

Sounds good. Comparisons to who?



Not comparing resumes or instructors for that matter (find where I have ever talked down about any of the “gurus” or their teachings), but I find it interesting how someone who “walks the walk” can be so easily discounted by a guy(s) who admittedly don’t understand or haven’t taken the time to completely learn or comprehend his teachings and techniques. . . baffling :disbelief:

I didn't say you did talk down about anyone and while skeptical from the past I'm certainly willing to take a fresh look at Dave's stuff.

[Mark H]

mud -

there are 2 different blueprints/patterns that are inevitably mixed when not actively looked for and learned, BUT most good instructors with MLB experience are familiar with the MLB pattern and that s wha they are describing, even though they make it sound like they are different/unique.

epstein, willams, lau sr and jr, dusty baker, slaught. hudgens.mankin,etc are all describing the same type swing with different terminology and emphasis and mixture of feel vs surface apearance.

englishbey follows nyman who has specialized in the other blueprint/pattern which is not successful in MLB. the things englishbey and his mentor nyman emphasize are will often prevent developing the MLB swing.

Nyman and Englishbey being the only two of all those mentioned who hurt your feelings that works out well for you.

[mudvnine]

Yes I'm sure it sounds like that but I've been through a lot, studied a lot and considered a lot. I'm open to argument but you better bring video of MLB hitters to prove your point. Lately I've been convinced Yeager may have some good stuff.

Mark, I am not interested in a "tit for tat" discussion here, nor do I care to share any of Dave's stuff here any longer, but if you have specific questions or interests in it and are willing to set egos and gurus aside, PM me and I'd be more then happy to discuss it with you.

On another note, I ordered all of Chris Yeager's hitting material last week and am waiting its arrival. From the things I've read here about his work, I'm also very interested in hearing what he has to say.

I'm still very interested in Steve's material, but when he was a PM no show I just moved on, so I'd really like to compare notes with you, just not here in open forum . . . it's just too exhausting.


Muddy

P.S.

Just remember the video of elite hitters.

Just what elite hitter swings with his bottom hand lying on top of his other hand's closed fist??? You got video of that??? ;) (Just messing with ya) :waving

[Mark H]

I'd really like to compare notes with you, just not here in open forum . . . it's just too exhausting.



I certainly understand that.

Reminds me, Tom, Letterman says he's having a UFO alien expert on tonight. Figured you would want to watch.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm still very interested in Steve's material, but when he was a PM no show I just moved on, so I'd really like to compare notes with you, just not here in open forum . . . it's just too exhausting.
Muddy

Mud,
These open, privately owned, moderated sites are good for general discussion. When you want to discuss specific concepts, techniques, or methods you may have to go to the PM's or that person's private site. I try to maintain a certain amount of free discussion. The down side is that discussion includes those who agree and those who disagree.

[mudvnine]

Mud,
These open, privately owned, moderated sites are good for general discussion. When you want to discuss specific concepts, techniques, or methods you may have to go to the PM's or that person's private site. I try to maintain a certain amount of free discussion. The down side is that discussion includes those who agree and those who disagree.

Not sure what this is all about, but OK. . .

Thought that in my post to Mark I specifically said:

Mark, I am not interested in a "tit for tat" discussion here, nor do I care to share any of Dave's stuff here any longer, but if you have specific questions or interests in it and are willing to set egos and gurus aside, PM me and I'd be more then happy to discuss it with you.

And in an earlier one to him:

As far as Englishbey, last week he PM'd me agreeing with things I had posted and some other observations he had about things here on the board.

I wrote him back and thanked him for his nice words . . .


Thanks for the info I'll try to remember. :noidea

[Jake Patterson]

I was responding to this:

Originally Posted by mudvnine
I'm still very interested in Steve's material, but when he was a PM no show I just moved on, so I'd really like to compare notes with you, just not here in open forum . . . it's just too exhausting.
Muddy

[mudvnine]

I was responding to this:
__________________________________________________ ______________
Originally Posted by mudvnine
I'm still very interested in Steve's material, but when he was a PM no show I just moved on, so I'd really like to compare notes with you, just not here in open forum . . . it's just too exhausting.
Muddy

Am I missing something here????? :noidea :shrug:

[FiveFrameSwing]

The "reach with the front foot" that you mention is a mental cue to teach hitters that the stride is to get the weight back in the loading sequence and not to move the weight forward towards the pitcher as many hitters (especially linear ones) do during the stride sequence.


My observation is that the majority of my students that "reach with the front foot", as opposed to striding to a balanced position, tend to have issues with hip glide.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Lately I've been convinced Yeager may have some good stuff.


I almost fell out of my chair when I read this. I had to keep checking that you were the author of that post.

Not that you care, but you won big kudos with me with that comment.

Glad to see that you are open minded.

[mudvnine]

My observation is that the majority of my students that "reach with the front foot", as opposed to striding to a balanced position, tend to have issues with hip glide.

Do you have your students go to a balanced 50/50 preload position before hip movement, or do you have them go to a 60/40 balance before their hip "launch"?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Do you have your students go to a balanced 50/50 preload position before hip movement, or do you have them go to a 60/40 balance before their hip "launch"?

I'm not completely sure I understand your usage of the term "preload position".

If by "load", you mean the "negative move" or the "loading" of the inner thigh of the back leg prior to the forward weight shift, then the answer is that my students are in a 50/50 balanced position prior to going into their negative move.

[mudvnine]

I'm not completely sure I understand your usage of the term "preload position".

If by "load", you mean the "negative move" or the "loading" of the inner thigh of the back leg prior to the forward weight shift, then the answer is that my students are in a 50/50 balanced position prior to going into their negative move.

yeah, I'm not sure what I meant by that also, I think I just made that up. :confused: :)

What I meant was the "load", "trigger", or "negative move" of the sequence, but anyway the use of the word "reach" is to mentally cue the hitter to not "stride" forward, where by moving the weight forward prematurely as would be the case if one allowed the weight to follow the foot as in a regular walking (like down the sidewak) stride.

It hopefully reminds the hitter to get negative movement to shift the weight rearward just as the foot starts to leave the ground and not to initially just push forward off the back foot to start the stride, getting the weight out over the front foot (linear type swing).

Wish I could show you, because I'm sure it is the same as you teach, just different terminology.

[FiveFrameSwing]

yeah, I'm not sure what I meant by that also, I think I just made that up. :confused: :)

What I meant was the "load", "trigger", or "negative move" of the sequence, but anyway the use of the word "reach" is to mentally cue the hitter to not "stride" forward, where by moving the weight forward prematurely as would be the case if one allowed the weight to follow the foot as in a regular walking (like down the sidewak) stride.

It hopefully reminds the hitter to get negative movement to shift the weight rearward just as the foot starts to leave the ground and not to initially just push forward off the back foot to start the stride, getting the weight out over the front foot (linear type swing).

Wish I could show you, because I'm sure it is the same as you teach, just different terminology.

Sounds like the only difference is that my hitters will arrive at their "ready position" (toe-touch) with their head balanced between both feet. They can then immediately progress to heel-plant and rotation without incurring any hip glide.

While we both obtain a negative move, what I picture with your approach is that the head is not 50/50 balanced between both feet at toe-touch, but is instead closer to the rear foot. When I get a kid that gets to toe-touch out of balance, such that their head is closer to their back foot, then I have always observed hip glide prior to swing initiation. IMO their body wishes to seek balance before rotating strongly, and hence their hips glide to balance.

[mudvnine]

Sounds like the only difference is that my hitters will arrive at their "ready position" (toe-touch) with their head balanced between both feet. They can then immediately progress to heel-plant and rotation without incurring any hip glide.

While we both obtain a negative move, what I picture with your approach is that the head is not 50/50 balanced between both feet at toe-touch, but is instead closer to the rear foot. When I get a kid that gets to toe-touch out of balance, such that their head is closer to their back foot, then I have always observed hip glide prior to swing initiation. IMO their body wishes to seek balance before rotating strongly, and hence their hips glide to balance.

Frame, my hitters don't set back on their rear leg . . . remember, this is a MENTAL CUE to remind them to not just simply step or stride forward from their 50/50 stance as seen in a linear movement hitter and has NOTHING to do with what is happening at toe-touch.

Again, just different terminology to accomplish/teach the same thing. If you like "stride" vs. "reach" go with it . . . heck, sometimes I even use the word "stride", depending on how the hitter assimilates the information presented in order to get the desired results.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Frame, my hitters don't set back on their rear leg . . . remember, this is a MENTAL CUE to remind them to not just simply step or stride forward from their 50/50 stance as seen in a linear movement hitter and has NOTHING to do with what is happening at toe-touch.

Again, just different terminology to accomplish/teach the same thing. If you like "stride" vs. "reach" go with it . . . heck, sometimes I even use the word "stride", depending on how the hitter assimilates the information presented in order to get the desired results.

I appreciate the candid response.

One more issue I have with the word "reach" is it makes it sound like all the action during the stride is occuring with the lead leg.

To the contrary, I feel that Yeager nailed it when he said "Pushing against the ground is a human’s greatest source of force generation."

When I think of "reach with the front leg" I lose the image of the "back leg pushing".

Chris Yeager breaks this down into 4 steps, and the step where you "reach with the front leg" and I "push forward with the back leg" is step #2.

Here are Yeager's notes on this. Give it a read and see what you think.

--

There are four primary functions of the legs, two with each leg, that the hitter must master.

1. He must load the back leg
2. He must push forward with the back leg
3. Must block with the front leg, and
4. Push with the front leg.

The first one, the load, should be performed before the release of the pitch.

The load can be accomplished by simply lifting the front foot off of the ground and by putting the center of pressure solely on the back foot.

But to teach a player to stride forward while leaving the weight on his back foot is either a completely wasted motion or a very inefficient way to load the back side. This method promotes back foot hitting and never emphasizes pushing against the ground, and thus robbing the player of his greatest source of power.

After loading the back leg the hitter will begin the second and final function of the back leg which is pushing forward in a straight line direction.

[mudvnine]

There are four primary functions of the legs, two with each leg, that the hitter must master.

1. He must load the back leg
2. He must push forward with the back leg
3. Must block with the front leg, and
4. Push with the front leg.



1. He must load the back leg - - - - - - - - - - YES!
2. He must push forward with the back leg - - - YES!!
3. Must block with the front leg, and - - - - - - YES!!!

and. . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . .

4. Push with the front leg. - - - - - - - - - - - - YES!!!!


Well outstanding, see I know we were in agreement all along, just speaking a different langueage . . . and look, a coming together with no nuclear weapons. :highfive:

BTW, even though I'm a Hudgens guy, I do have the “Complete Set of all 4" Yeager DVDs on order. I keep looking out my window waiting for the FedEx guy. :hide: Dang they're slow.

One more issue I have with the word "reach" is it makes it sound like all the action during the stride is occuring with the lead leg.

That's OK Frame, it's only a word and believe me, I've NEVER given a hitting lesson over the phone, so my students understand what is meant by it and how they're to use it.

And besides, if they don't get it, I beat them with a feather duster and yell "STRIDE, STRIDE, STRIDE" at them!!! :laugh :laugh

[LClifton]

.............#1 and #2...???
44333

[LClifton]

Complete clip.
44335

[FiveFrameSwing]

.............#1 and #2...???
44333

The video doesn't show the beginning of #1, which likely occured as the heel of the front leg came off the ground.

The video does show #2.

Also notice, that in parallel with #2 that the lead-arm is extending back towards the catcher. Lead-arm extension should occur during this forward weight shift.

p.s.
Nice video!

[callyjr]

Lead-arm extension should occur during this forward weight shift.

p.s.
Nice video!

should it? Pujols thinks not!! As long as your i the ready position at go it truely doesn't matter when and where does it?

[FiveFrameSwing]

1. He must load the back leg - - - - - - - - - - YES!
2. He must push forward with the back leg - - - YES!!
3. Must block with the front leg, and - - - - - - YES!!!

and. . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . .

4. Push with the front leg. - - - - - - - - - - - - YES!!!!



Help me out here.

Are you inferring that there should be a pause between #3 and #4?

I'm dealing with a kid that 'strides' early and pauses in "toe-touch". They will "wait for it ... wait for it ... wait for it" in toe-touch.

I'm considering breaking them of this habit.

They initially began striding to toe-touch early as a mechanism for dealing with two strikes. With success they introduced this into their full swing.

The issue is that 1) there is a loss of momentum that isn't being carried into rotation and 2) their lead-arm extension that they obtained during their forward weight shift collapses as they "wait for it" in toe-touch.

Other than this pre-stride to toe-touch this kid is fairly clean.

Anyone have any thoughts of whether I should alter this kids stride so that they reach toe-touch with "timing" such that they carry this momentum into a rotation?

[FiveFrameSwing]

should it? Pujols thinks not!! As long as your i the ready position at go it truely doesn't matter when and where does it?

Yes, the timing of lead-arm extension is important. As Donny pointed out, early lead-arm extension can lead to arm-bar.

Ideally you want to obtain lead arm extension during the forward weight shift.

Think in terms of "stretch and fire".

[LClifton]

The video doesn't show the beginning of #1, which likely occured as the heel of the front leg came off the ground.
True......I made the clip some time back for another purpose. Once I realized I sawed off #1, I posted the entire clip. Good catch.

[FiveFrameSwing]

should it? Pujols thinks not!! As long as your i the ready position at go it truely doesn't matter when and where does it?

I reviewed some videos of Pujols.

You have a point. He does obtain lead arm extension prior to his forward weight shift. Somewhat uncommon, but you have brought up an example.

[callyjr]

I reviewed some videos of Pujols.

You have a point. He does obtain lead arm extension prior to his forward weight shift. Somewhat uncommon, but you have brought up an example.

thanks for seeing it, thats why when you said my boy was stretching to early I dis-regarded your statements. What it comes down to is where they are at footplant, the rest is not as important as everyone suggests.

Cally

[FiveFrameSwing]

thanks for seeing it, thats why when you said my boy was stretching to early I dis-regarded your statements. What it comes down to is where they are at footplant, the rest is not as important as everyone suggests.

Cally

Your boy's mechanics are very different from Pujols.

I believe Donny and Yeager are correct in their recommendation that lead arm extension should occur during the forward weight shift. Pujols is an exception to this, and in my opinion is not the norm.

If you can come up with several hitters that obtain lead arm extension prior to obtaining "their forward weight shift" then I would change my view point.

--
Edited ... substituted the words in "".

Thanks LC.

[mudvnine]

Help me out here.

Are you inferring that there should be a pause between #3 and #4?

I'm dealing with a kid that 'strides' early and pauses in "toe-touch". They will "wait for it ... wait for it ... wait for it" in toe-touch.

I'm considering breaking them of this habit.

They initially began striding to toe-touch early as a mechanism for dealing with two strikes. With success they introduced this into their full swing.

The issue is that 1) there is a loss of momentum that isn't being carried into rotation and 2) their lead-arm extension that they obtained during their forward weight shift collapses as they "wait for it" in toe-touch.

Other than this pre-stride to toe-touch this kid is fairly clean.

Anyone have any thoughts of whether I should alter this kids stride so that they reach toe-touch with "timing" such that they carry this momentum into a rotation?

I posted the "wait for it . . ." as a jokingly dramatic pause that we agreed on three things, could we possibly agree on all four? . . . YES!!

Now here's the crazy part, I have several hitter that do "stride" early and have a slight pause prior to "launch", they are very good with this technique and hit with incredible, unexpected power, so I have left them alone.

One thing that I do stress is to be early rather then late and staying "loaded" a little longer then most, so these strides may be a anomolay of that.

Sure it's nice to have everything right, where swing sequence timing is perfect, but we know that's not always the case in real life.

So, I'd rather have them a touch early in their stride and waiting on the pitch, then a touch late and having to play catch up with the rest of their mechanics.

Boy, is this going to open Pandora's Box. :rofl: :dance :eek:

[callyjr]

Your boy's mechanics are very different from Pujols.

I believe Donny and Yeager are correct in their recommendation that lead arm extension should occur during the forward weight shift. Pujols is an exception to this, and in my opinion is not the norm.

If you can come up with several hitters that obtain lead arm extension prior to obtaining lead arm extension then I would change my view point.

I can come up with several hitters(pretty much the whole hall of fame) that are in the same position at footplant just like my boy is. I don't have a need to change your view, you will come to that on your own.

Cally

[LClifton]

If you can come up with several hitters that obtain lead arm extension prior to obtaining lead arm extension then I would change my view point.
Five, does this need to be edited?

[callyjr]

Five, does this need to be edited?


I got the jist of what he was saying. My point is as long as there is some stretch created it doesn't matter how we get to it as long as at foot plant they are in the universal setup.

Cally

[FiveFrameSwing]

I can come up with several hitters(pretty much the whole hall of fame) that are in the same position at footplant just like my boy is. I don't have a need to change your view, you will come to that on your own.

Cally

I don't believe anyone was questioning the position at foot plant ... at least I wasn't.

The question was about the sequence of events.

I don't wish to put words in your mouth, but you seem to believe that if one obtains lead-arm extension prior to the forward weight shift, that it is virtually equivalent to achieving lead-arm extension during the forward weight shift.

I believe differently. From my perspective the "stretch" in "stretch-and-fire" occurs as the lead-arm extends back towards the catcher while the weight is shifting forward. That's the "stretch" ... hands going back as the weight shifts forward.

I respect that you believe differently and to your credit you have a data point of Pujols swing. Should you come across more such swings I'd be interested.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Five, does this need to be edited?

Yes. Good catch!

[callyjr]

I don't believe anyone was questioning the position at foot plant ... at least I wasn't.

The question was about the sequence of events.

I don't wish to put words in your mouth, but you seem to believe that if one obtains lead-arm extension prior to the forward weight shift, that it is virtually equivalent to achieving lead-arm extension during the forward weight shift.

I believe differently. From my perspective the "stretch" in "stretch-and-fire" occurs as the lead-arm extends back towards the catcher while the weight is shifting forward. That's the "stretch" ... hands going back as the weight shifts forward.

I respect that you believe differently and to your credit you have a data point of Pujols swing. Should you come across more such swings I'd be interested.

You can wind the rubber band in more than 1 way. You can have it already pre-wound like Pujols, still has a ton of stretch or you can wind it up early or late, it really doesn't make a difference as long as you get stretch. Epstein doesn't even teach it that way, he says the front shoulder comes down and in. I believe Soriano is more of a front shoulder down and and in and he doesn't pull his arms back either.

http://hitrotational.com/sorianosidesmall.gif

cally

[mudvnine]

I believe differently. From my perspective the "stretch" in "stretch-and-fire" occurs as the lead-arm extends back towards the catcher while the weight is shifting forward. That's the "stretch" ... hands going back as the weight shifts forward.

Five, are you saying that you have bi-directional movement at time of weight transfer, the body going one direction and the hands going another?

[mudvnine]

You can wind the rubber band in more than 1 way. You can have it already pre-wound like Pujols, still has a ton of stretch or you can wind it up early or late, it really doesn't make a difference as long as you get stretch. Epstein doesn't even teach it that way, he says the front shoulder comes down and in. I believe Soriano is more of a front shoulder down and and in and he doesn't pull his arms back either.

cally

Yes, I believe that stretch or seperation should take place prior to weight transfer forward.

[callyjr]

Yes, I believe that stretch or seperation should take place prior to weight transfer forward.

Most have it prior to weight transfer, but here is a clip of Vlady doing it during.

http://hitrotational.com/vlad2.gif

[LClifton]

I got the jist of what he was saying. My point is as long as there is some stretch created it doesn't matter how we get to it as long as at foot plant they are in the universal setup.

Cally
Cally, I would take your kid's swing any day.
I do however, believe that the timing of the
*Full stretch
*Scap loading
*Lead arm extension
*Universal set up
*Striding away from the hands
whatever one chooses to call it,,,,does assist in the unloading.

Here's why,
With virtually every swing I view--- I see what I refer to as a slight "bump" backward with the lead "arm" (and I use "arm" very loosely here).
Some hitters exhibit little change in the angle of the lead arm, yet their hands have moved.
How do they do that?
Differing views on this, for sure.

So,
If the hitter pre-sets the lead arm into a stretched position, or does so while loading onto the back leg (the negative move), what I have witnessed, in teaching, is they then reach back slightly further in preparation to launch and "over-extend" the lead arm. Arm bar.

So, I believe that the timing of the "lead arm stretch" is critical to the unload.

On the other hand, some may be successful in a pre-stretched position as long as they are able to hold that position without 'arm-barring.'

[callyjr]

Cally, I would take your kid's swing any day.
I do however, believe that the timing of the
*Full stretch
*Scap loading
*Lead arm extension
*Universal set up
*Striding away from the hands
whatever one chooses to call it,,,,does assist in the unloading.

Here's why,
With virtually every swing I view--- I see what I refer to as a slight "bump" backward with the lead "arm" (and I use "arm" very loosely here).
Some hitters exhibit little change in the angle of the lead arm, yet their hands have moved.
How do they do that?
Differing views on this, for sure.

So,
If the hitter pre-sets the lead arm into a stretched position, or does so while loading onto the back leg (the negative move), what I have witnessed, in teaching, is they then reach back slightly further in preparation to launch and "over-extend" the lead arm. Arm bar.

So, I believe that the timing of the "lead arm stretch" is critical to the unload.

On the other hand, some may be successful in a pre-stretched position as long as they are able to hold that position without 'arm-barring.'

good point, I think it is important to the point of creating stretch and timing for youth hitters, but it becomes less important IMO as the hitters begin to understand hitting and have more control of their bodies.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Most have it prior to weight transfer,


In my opinion there is more of a commonality of performing lead-arm extension during the forward weight shift.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/Bonds_HandsBackInStride.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/Bonds_HandsBackInStride_FullClip.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/Griffey01.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/6ss3hbc.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/Manny4.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/tejada.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/RyanHoward.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/arodside.gif

[FiveFrameSwing]

So, I believe that the timing of the "lead arm stretch" is critical to the unload.

On the other hand, some may be successful in a pre-stretched position as long as they are able to hold that position without 'arm-barring.'

Good summary ... and one I agree with.

[callyjr]

ok I'll conceed to that Mark, I got caught up in the moment, but it not the law and the Manny clip you showed he is loaded earlier then the weight shift. He just adds a little down and in as a bonus.

[FiveFrameSwing]

ok I'll conceed to that Mark, I got caught up in the moment, but it not the law and the Manny clip you showed he is loaded earlier then the weight shift. He just adds a little down and in as a bonus.

Good point ... Manny like most (IMO) will preform a hand/barrel preload prior to their negative move, but will reach peak lead-arm extension at/near their "ready position" (toe-touch).

Like you pointed out, there are exceptions and it is not a law.

p.s.

I'm not Mark.

[tom.guerry]

the horizontal scap action is alos part of lead arm getting extended.

i think the scaps are slaved to the arm load, and the back arm/top hand are dominant when the amount of lead scap/arm stretch is determined.

see for scap action:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/109863.html

[FiveFrameSwing]

So, I believe that the timing of the "lead arm stretch" is critical to the unload.


Not only does Yeager teach this, but so do instructors like Rudy Jaramillo.

Rudy Jaramillo in the Forward of "Hitting Secrets of the Pros" ... "You need separation - that is, as your front foot is going forward, your hands are going back."