Why do girls throw like, well ... girls?

[patsox]

During softball tryouts a couple of weeks ago I was talking to one of the other coaches about why a large percentage of the girls (12U level) throw the way they do.

A lot of them tend to push the ball, almost in a shotputting fashion. Many of them have the glove leg forward as they should, but they don't use the arm motion of baseball players or advanced softball players. Quite a few also stay squared up to the target instead of turning to throw. I only noticed maybe 2 or 3 that actually threw like a ball player.

My 9 yo son, on the other hand, without me ever telling him how to throw, just throws it in a pretty natural baseball way.

Any ideas on why this is? Is it a boy/girl thing? Any ideas on how to teach proper throwing technique. We talk a lot about hitting "cues", how about throwing "cues"? Does anyone have any that would help? Thanks.

[Chris O'Leary]

During softball tryouts a couple of weeks ago I was talking to one of the other coaches about why a large percentage of the girls (12U level) throw the way they do.

A lot of them tend to push the ball, almost in a shotputting fashion. Many of them have the glove leg forward as they should, but they don't use the arm motion of baseball players or advanced softball players. Quite a few also stay squared up to the target instead of turning to throw. I only noticed maybe 2 or 3 that actually threw like a ball player.

My 9 yo son, on the other hand, without me ever telling him how to throw, just throws it in a pretty natural baseball way.

Any ideas on why this is? Is it a boy/girl thing? Any ideas on how to teach proper throwing technique. We talk a lot about hitting "cues", how about throwing "cues"? Does anyone have any that would help? Thanks.

1. Poor instruction.
2. Less practice.
2. Less upper body strength.

I just finished updating my piece on...

- Proper Throwing Mechanics (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ProperThrowingMechanics.html)

[CoachHenry]

Even in this day and age the expectations are lower for girls. They aren't worked with as much or held to a high standard. I never say "throw like a boy!" I say "throw like a ball player!".

[hellborn]

I think that the "wrong leg stride" is pretty natural for trying to move something that you're just not quite strong enough to really handle...they're trying to push something with their whole body instead of using rotation. I think that boys being a little stronger has something to do with it. The girls in softball having to use larger balls can't help either...they may be shotputting it because they can't grip a softball well. My wife STILL throws like that.
I coach an 8U team and constantly remind the girls to point the glove at what they want to throw at and bring the ball back the other way, then step and throw. Probably not ideal for teaching really good mechanics, but it does keep them from stepping with the wrong foot.
I have one girl who must be able to throw a baseball 45-50mph, saw her playing catch with her dad. She's small, but has a beautiful motion. I hope that she doesn't seriously bean one of the other gals!!!

[Mark H]

I'd say you aren't watching good softball. I don't see that in even low level travel/select and rarely even in LL softball in our area.

[5LilPlayers]

[QUOTE=Chris O'Leary;1195612]1. Poor instruction.
2. Less practice.
2. Less upper body strength.QUOTE]

I agree, to a degree.

Poor instruction, yes. Less practice, probably. Don't know about the upper body strength, though. If you watch really young kids (3 - 6 yr. olds) MANY players do that "push" thing...girls AND boys.

Either way, all three points can be worked on.

[Brian McKenna]

It's all a part of the coddling by most parents and some coaches. Girls are treated completely different than boys of the same age. The game is different. There are face guards, large balls, singing, dancing, no pressure on the young girls. When the game is over there are snacks and drinks. There are tents placed over the bench to keep the sun off the girls. None of this is bad per say but it tells the girls that they are different and perhaps not accountable to the aggressive and demanding style of the boys.

I don't coach my daughter's team but I do my son's; though, I've inserted myself from the beginning. The girls' coaches don't tell them much at all. They just tell them how great they are and lavish praise. I'm the only one who will even remotely mention or perhaps berate (if it's a continual issue) the girls for all the things listed in post #1 - trying to get them into proper mechanics.

It's been my experience that the boys have always been told what is expected of them. But, the girls have never been given that push.

The coaches don't expect a thing. They even refuse to tell the girls the score. Whenever they ask, the coach always says it's tied. The base coaches don't push the girls and they definitely don't coach them (but that's just parents - most are timid and say next to nothing).

The girls aren't coaxed to be aggressive. Some never, never swing and are given compliments when they come back to the bench. I understand the desire not to upset the girls but spark some competiveness for Christ's sake.

I took this girls aside and did some drills with her because she souldn't swing. Then, I walked up to her father and started talking about what she needs to do. All I got from him was that he was trying to build the girl's confidence by teaching her to get on base - by walking. She simply would not swing and hadn't done so in four games. He was teaching her to be a lump and applauding (he is the first base coach) when she was given the gift of a walk. What are you to do with that? I just walked away -- and the coddling continues.

[PhilliesPhan22]

It's all a part of the coddling by some parents and coaches. Girls are treated completely different than boys of the same age. The game is different. There are face guards, large balls, singing, dancing, no pressure on the young girls. I don't coach my daughter's team but I do my son's. The girls' coaches don't tell them much at all. They just tell them how great they are. I'm the only one who will even remotely berate the girls for all the things listed in post #1. The coaches don't expect a thing. They even refuse to tell the girls the score. Whenever they ask. The coach always says it's tied. The base coaches don't push the girls.

Wow, that totally takes away all competition. What would be the point of playing if you don;t get to experience every aspect of the game.

[5LilPlayers]

Upon thinking about it...it MAY just be the size of the ball.

Just watched some videoes...the look in my 9 yr. old daughter's eyes the first time she even saw a softball (only a week ago)...PRICELESS! LMAO But anyway, throwing them...my 3 older girls (9, 6 and 4 currently) all had more of the natural motion when throwing a baseball, but when throwing the softball, all 3 of the girls - AND my 12 yr. old son - did that "push" thing.

[Brian McKenna]

Upon thinking about it...it MAY just be the size of the ball.


The size of the ball does matter. I much prefer a baseball. My daughter is in a 10U league (she's one of the two 10 year olds on the team). They use an 11" softball. It's not all that bad to throw. I've inserted a 12" ball into some of out practices and it's a huge difference (throwing and hitting) from the 11" ball. Next year they use the 12" ball.

She much prefers to throw and hit a baseball with me and my son in practice but she couldn't handle a baseball in game situations (off the bat).

[Freestate]

Wow, that totally takes away all competition. What would be the point of playing if you don;t get to experience every aspect of the game.

I think you've touched on a key point. Speaking in generalities, boys play sports because they enjoy the competition. Girls play sports because they enjoy the social interaction. The genders are just wired differently. Understanding that motivational difference is, IMO, one key to successful softball coaches (at the rec level).

[CoachHenry]

I don't coach my daughter's team but I do my son's; though, I've inserted myself from the beginning. The girls' coaches don't tell them much at all. They just tell them how great they are and lavish praise. I'm the only one who will even remotely mention or perhaps berate (if it's a continual issue) the girls for all the things listed in post #1 - trying to get them into proper mechanics.


Why don't you coach your daughter's team? I notice many dads will go coach their sons but not their daughters. I fell I'll have a greater impact on my daughter's team then I did on my sons team for most of the reasons you listed.

[Chris O'Leary]

Poor instruction, yes. Less practice, probably. Don't know about the upper body strength, though. If you watch really young kids (3 - 6 yr. olds) MANY players do that "push" thing...girls AND boys.

I don't think upper body strength differences really come into play until 5th or 6th grade. Then boys really start to bulk up.

Up through 3rd grade or so, the physical differences between boys and girls really aren't that major.

I do think the large size of a softball does make a difference. A softball is much bigger, and I know many of my 2nd grade boys have grip problems with standard-sized baseballs. I am sure they would have problems gripping a softball and that would affect how they threw the ball.

[Chris O'Leary]

I think you've touched on a key point. Speaking in generalities, boys play sports because they enjoy the competition. Girls play sports because they enjoy the social interaction. The genders are just wired differently. Understanding that motivational difference is, IMO, one key to successful softball coaches (at the rec level).

I have coached all of my kids, 2 boys and 2 girls, in most of their sports and I can tell you that this is completely true, at least when it comes to regular kids. The more competitive girls are more like the boys, but even then they are still different. Just watch women's college softball.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I think you've touched on a key point. Speaking in generalities, boys play sports because they enjoy the competition. Girls play sports because they enjoy the social interaction. The genders are just wired differently. Understanding that motivational difference is, IMO, one key to successful softball coaches (at the rec level).

I could not agree with you more.

[DerbyDay03]

It's all a part of the coddling by most parents and some coaches. Girls are treated completely different than boys of the same age. The game is different. There are face guards, large balls, singing, dancing, no pressure on the young girls. When the game is over there are snacks and drinks. There are tents placed over the bench to keep the sun off the girls. None of this is bad per say but it tells the girls that they are different and perhaps not accountable to the aggressive and demanding style of the boys.

I don't coach my daughter's team but I do my son's; though, I've inserted myself from the beginning. The girls' coaches don't tell them much at all. They just tell them how great they are and lavish praise. I'm the only one who will even remotely mention or perhaps berate (if it's a continual issue) the girls for all the things listed in post #1 - trying to get them into proper mechanics.

It's been my experience that the boys have always been told what is expected of them. But, the girls have never been given that push.

The coaches don't expect a thing. <snip> The base coaches don't push the girls and they definitely don't coach them (but that's just parents - most are timid and say next to nothing).

The girls aren't coaxed to be aggressive. Some never, never swing and are given compliments when they come back to the bench. I understand the desire not to upset the girls but spark some competiveness for Christ's sake.

<snip>

... And those are the teams that the good teams beat up on.

You have painted girls softball with a pretty broad brush. It is not that way everywhere.

We teach and coach our girls the same way the other coaches teach and coach our boys. They swing the bat or they sit. They slide or they sit. When they strike out we call them over and tell them what they did wrong. When they screw up on the field their mistake is pointed out with never an " Oh...That's OK...Nice Try." Praise is given only when praise is due.

They don't have cheers, they don't sing songs - they hate the teams that do.

We hold open gyms all winter with the Varsity team and upper-tier JV players expected to participate and help with the younger girls. It's not required, but guess who sees more playing time and carries less equipment when the season starts? You earn your way onto the field by how much work you do in the off-season.

If your coaches are coddling the girls - or giving in to the parents when they say the coaches are being too harsh - then it's time to sit down with the guilty parties and set them straight.

[Swing Coach]

Third vote here for size of the ball. Girls are given softballs at too young of age and can't grip them with their hands on top. They have to place the ball in their palms with the palms facing up (like a waiter and his tray). This balancing act with the ball does not allow the hand to go down and back because the ball would fall straight to the ground. Thus, she has to keep theball balanced in the palm as she brings her hand straight back and then forward. This becomes entrenched in muscle memory and has to be trained out of them when their hands are big enough to grip a softball with the hand on top.

[Mark H]

I don't recognize the game you all are describing. Do any of you live in CA, TX, AZ or FL?

[tom.guerry]

I would say it's a combo of not enough of the right kind of early trial and error learning, then as the ability to learn changes as kids get older, they are exposed to overcoaching/poor instruction which makes it worse rather than better.

It's so bad that even at college world series and Olympic level some players have dreadful arms.

Many have very good mechanics. Among others, Finch has a great overhand throw.

[BenHertz]

I don't recognize the game you all are describing. Do any of you live in CA, TX, AZ or FL?

Maybe that's the way you throw, Mark! :laugh

Just kidding.

[TG Coach]

I'd say you aren't watching good softball. I don't see that in even low level travel/select and rarely even in LL softball in our area.

I agree. My daughter never threw like a girl. She threw (and continues to throw) like a softball player. I've seen many boys in rec ball who throw like girls. The older they get the harder it is to change.

[TG Coach]

It's all a part of the coddling by most parents and some coaches. Girls are treated completely different than boys of the same age. The game is different. There are face guards, large balls, singing, dancing, no pressure on the young girls. When the game is over there are snacks and drinks. There are tents placed over the bench to keep the sun off the girls. None of this is bad per say but it tells the girls that they are different and perhaps not accountable to the aggressive and demanding style of the boys.

I don't coach my daughter's team but I do my son's; though, I've inserted myself from the beginning. The girls' coaches don't tell them much at all. They just tell them how great they are and lavish praise. I'm the only one who will even remotely mention or perhaps berate (if it's a continual issue) the girls for all the things listed in post #1 - trying to get them into proper mechanics.

It's been my experience that the boys have always been told what is expected of them. But, the girls have never been given that push.

The coaches don't expect a thing. They even refuse to tell the girls the score. Whenever they ask, the coach always says it's tied. The base coaches don't push the girls and they definitely don't coach them (but that's just parents - most are timid and say next to nothing).

The girls aren't coaxed to be aggressive. Some never, never swing and are given compliments when they come back to the bench. I understand the desire not to upset the girls but spark some competiveness for Christ's sake.

I took this girls aside and did some drills with her because she souldn't swing. Then, I walked up to her father and started talking about what she needs to do. All I got from him was that he was trying to build the girl's confidence by teaching her to get on base - by walking. She simply would not swing and hadn't done so in four games. He was teaching her to be a lump and applauding (he is the first base coach) when she was given the gift of a walk. What are you to do with that? I just walked away -- and the coddling continues.

I didn't experience any of this when my daughter came through youth softball. Her early year rec experience and her travel experience was the same as my son's baseball experience.

[STM4UA]

This used to drive me crazy with my own daughter. We worked on it a lot and I even bought one those throwing contraptions that you strap on their arm but nothing worked.

I finally decided that it all had to do with her dropping (or collapsing) her throwing arm elbow. If you look at someone who is "throwing like a girl" or pushing the ball you will notice that their throwing arm elbow is tucked in close to their side when they throw. The elbow of the throwing side arm needs to keep it's distance from the body during the throwing motion. Concentrating on this finally cured my daughter of her problem.

This doesn't answer why they do it but I do think it can help people understand how to fix it.

[TG Coach]

Upon thinking about it...it MAY just be the size of the ball.

It IS bad coaching.

[Mark H]

Given the field dimensions the penalty for lack of throwing profiency in fp is less than in bb but the pitiful throwing most of you describe is foreign to me. Most of the fp girls I see at anything remotely competitive throw the ball reasonably well to very well. Do they look like Ichiro? No, but they darn sure don't push it. I suggest finding a better level of softball for your daughters if this is what you are seeing. LL softball is the lowest level I'm aware of and even there some of the girls throw very well. Where are guys seeing this stuff?

[TG Coach]

... And those are the teams that the good teams beat up on.

In travel we hated even wasting our time playing them.

[Mark H]

Maybe that's the way you throw, Mark! :laugh

Just kidding.


Well after abusing my shoulder throwing bp for the two boys and their teams for years you are not far off now.

[TG Coach]

I have coached all of my kids, 2 boys and 2 girls, in most of their sports and I can tell you that this is completely true, at least when it comes to regular kids. The more competitive girls are more like the boys, but even then they are still different. Just watch women's college softball.

Absolutely not true. The only difference I saw with girls is if you chew out a girl you tick off a team. If you chew out a boy the rest are off in the distance thanking God it's not them.

[Mark H]

They are off in the distance waiting to razz their buddy who got his @## chewed out. lol

[DerbyDay03]

Absolutely not true. The only difference I saw with girls is if you chew out a girl you tick off a team. <snip>

I guess it depends on the team.

On my daughter's JV team there were issues with boyfriends and cell phones during practices and games. After the coach chewed out 2 of the worst offenders, my daughter and her co-captain called a players-only meeting where it was decided that cell phones will stay in their lockers, boyfriends/girlfriends will stay on the bleachers, and the players will stay on the bench.

The one girl who refused to follow the rules was asked to leave the team - by the coach, but at the players' request.

[Mark H]

Player leadership is huge.

[sl0annuggets]

There was this girl i played catch with that threw great! and i didnt have to let up throwing to her at all. I should have married her and made baby shortstops

[TG Coach]

There was this girl i played catch with that threw great! and i didnt have to let up throwing to her at all. I should have married her and made baby shortstops

I did. I knew she as the woman for me when she missed a putt and heaved her putter out of sight. We have a softball outfielder (shortstop until high school age) and a baseball shortstop.

[tom.guerry]

STM-

I think you are seeing it right. Most girls never mastrer a high level throw. They do not "keep the elbow up"/stay connected/"throw the elbow" (Nyman cue for those familiar with his model).

This low elbow means unreliable release point under pressure, and they lose control and usually airmail the infield throws, typically overshooting the first baseman from 3rd or short.

In the outfield, there is lack of power throwing, usually hiding the good hitter with the bad arm in right field.

[LClifton]

I did. I knew she as the woman for me when she missed a putt and heaved her putter out of sight. We have a softball outfielder (shortstop until high school age) and a baseball shortstop.
This is funny. :laugh:laugh:applaud:

[virg]

A drill to modify a limp-wristed girlie throw. Get her down on the throwing side knee, stride leg extended, forcing greater use of the wrist. Explain. Play a little short catch before going to normal distance. A little of it every day.

[Encinitas]

I did. I knew she as the woman for me when she missed a putt and heaved her putter out of sight. We have a softball outfielder (shortstop until high school age) and a baseball shortstop.

Well mine whizzed a 9-iron towards me from about 50 yards away when I attempted to offer some advice on a bad shot she took. "You missed that one too"..

We were around 23-24 at the time not sure I've golfed since. Definitely not with her. She's 5'-10" with big swimmer's shoulders and can throw a punch. We gave up doing any competitive sports activity together a long time ago (both hitting 40 now), and that the secret to a longer union. Seems neither one of us could turn the intensity lever to lower setting.

[TG Coach]

Well mine whizzed a 9-iron towards me from about 50 yards away when I attempted to offer some advice on a bad shot she took. "You missed that one too"..

We were around 23-24 at the time not sure I've golfed since. Definitely not with her. She's 5'-10" with big swimmer's shoulders and can throw a punch. We gave up doing any competitive sports activity together a long time ago (both hitting 40 now), and that the secret to a longer union. Seems neither one of us could turn the intensity lever to lower setting.

We gave up trying to play Scrabble against each other years ago. I once made the mistake in Trivial Pursuit of saying, "I can't believe you don't know the answer to that!"

[patsox]

We're in Eastern MA so the kids can't play year round like in some of the warmer climates. That aside, the boys pick it up quickly and maybe it's just that they do more throwing from a younger age. They dive for balls, throw sidearm, throw while running, etc. I don't see that kind of playing from the girls. They just try to throw the way they think they are supposed to. The girls as a whole don't watch as much sports on TV so don't have as much opportunity to emulate. I remember as a kid trying to throw like Dwight Evans because he had a cannon for an arm!

Although my daughter doesn't have the push problem, she still doesn't throw correctly so I think I'll try the higher elbow idea mentioned in one of the posts. Thanks for that idea.

[Mark H]

For yourself, I suggest Nyman's internet download on throwing and doing a youtube search for Alan Jaeger. On girls throwing, try to attend an ASA gold qualifier in your area and watch the CA, AZ and TX teams who are still playing on Sunday. You ought to see the high school jr I'm recruiting. Smoother SS than the great majority of the boys I've watched. The SS Texas recruited who will be a freshman next year is also smooth with a cannon. The list goes on. Go to 12U A ASA nationals and watch. If ULL wins the super regional you will get a chance to watch them on television in the WCWS. Watch the f5 throw.

[DerbyDay03]

We're in Eastern MA so the kids can't play year round like in some of the warmer climates.

We're in Western NY so weather is an issue for us also, except...

We hold open gyms every Sunday throughout the winter using the pitching machine and batter's catch, hitting grounders, pitching practice, etc. The only thing missing is base running (other than hot-box drills) and high fly balls.

In addition, many of our girls play in winter indoor leagues. If you've never seen an indoor softball game with the field enclosed in nets you're missing an interesting experience. The nets are in play and it's fun to watch the girls trying to judge a high fly ball that hits the ceiling net!

Anyway, when the weather breaks, there is no question which girls worked all winter and which girls sat around eating bon-bons.

[dmullen]

I don't know much about girls softball - while my son plays high school baseball, my daughter plays travel (select) soccer. I can tell you after watching some of her games (she plays U11) that there are some very tough, physical girls out there. I also see another subset of girls that while good athletes are not as physical and are not as dominant on the field (my daughter falls into this category).

I have spent many hours working with her off the field and have taken her too a point where she needs private lessons to improve (I never played soccer and know very little about the game). I think being physical and liking that type of game (running into other girls, throwing the elbow, or lowering the shoulder) is something that is probably nutured into the girls. My wife and I spent a great deal of time when my daughter was younger trying to teach her to be a young lady and this has probably lead her to being a little less agressive and more reserved (at times she seems like she is saying excuse me while I try to steal this ball). What I'm trying to say, IMO is that we as a society have spent a great deal of time in the formative years of our girls lives instructing them, either overtly or covertly, about how females behave & to expect them to turn this behavior off when they step out on a ball field is probably a little much to expect. I think if you want your daughter to be good at sports - let her get out on the play ground, climb trees, be tough, when she is younger - let her know it is ok to be a little bit of a rough neck.

Also it is my opinion more through observation than anything that dads have a bigger impact on a daughter in this regard then moms - while I think mother's have a bigger impact on a son's behavior & toughness. I say this after observing the mothers of the really good boy baseball players were usually pretty tough (regardless of how the father behaved). These women were more likely to tell their boy to get up and dust themselves off after being hit by a ball. I guess the boys never expected sympathy from mom and thus always wanted to please her by being tough. Just my opinion as archaic and cavemanish as it may be.

[Mark H]

We're in Western NY so weather is an issue for us also, except...

We hold open gyms every Sunday throughout the winter using the pitching machine and batter's catch, hitting grounders, pitching practice, etc. The only thing missing is base running (other than hot-box drills) and high fly balls.

In addition, many of our girls play in winter indoor leagues. If you've never seen an indoor softball game with the field enclosed in nets you're missing an interesting experience. The nets are in play and it's fun to watch the girls trying to judge a high fly ball that hits the ceiling net!

Anyway, when the weather breaks, there is no question which girls worked all winter and which girls sat around eating bon-bons.

One of these days I'd really like to watch some of these indoor games.

[DerbyDay03]

My wife and I spent a great deal of time when my daughter was younger trying to teach her to be a young lady and this has probably lead her to being a little less agressive and more reserved ... at times she seems like she is saying excuse me while I try to steal this ball

I started throwing softballs at (not to, at) my daughter when she was about 2 year olds. Don't worry, I used the 11" balls. I didn't start using the 12" balls until she was about 6. I think it toughened her up. ;)

[5LilPlayers]

Also it is my opinion more through observation than anything that dads have a bigger impact on a daughter in this regard then moms - while I think mother's have a bigger impact on a son's behavior & toughness. I say this after observing the mothers of the really good boy baseball players were usually pretty tough (regardless of how the father behaved). These women were more likely to tell their boy to get up and dust themselves off after being hit by a ball. I guess the boys never expected sympathy from mom and thus always wanted to please her by being tough. Just my opinion as archaic and cavemanish as it may be.

Yep. "Daddy's Little Girl" and "Mama's Boy" doesn't necessarily mean the child is "spoiled" by the respective parent. My husband and I go both ways. I don't "baby" our son, he doesn't coddle the girls. 4 yr. old comes in screaming like a banshee because she fell and her hand is bleeding, or our son complains of a scraped knee and BOTH of us will kick their butts back outside to play with "Shake it off" or "It isn't that bad."

Speaking of baseball specifically, all our kids had a time when they were scared of the ball so we made it our "duty" to bean them. We weren't whipping it like we could have, but around the speeds they'll face on/in their respective teams/leagues against pitchers. I'm proud to say, I actually got the imprint of the stitching from the ball on our son's leg and our 6 yr. old daughter's arms, hubby got the other two girls...baby's still too young for even t-ball, so her time hasn't come yet.

Yes, it may sound mean, but it's really helped them. They've seen for themselves that, "DANG! That hurts!! But it only lasts for a few seconds" and it's made them more aggressive players overall. They're more willing to dive for balls that are slightly out of reach, get down in front of grounders and who cares if it pops up and hits 'em in the chin, and the two older ones don't slink away as much from pitched balls that are close as being hit still gives you a base and the pain will fade by the time they're halfway to 1st anyway.

Maybe not the best idea for every child...but it's worked for mine.

[mudvnine]

At the risk of opeing a can of worms here, I'm going to offer something that may raise a few eyebrows, but bare with me.

My wife and I have had this discussion several times over the years and I am going to tell you what she has concluded. First, a little background, she has spent over 30 years in the medical field, the last 10 as a professor at a local college and has great knowledge in anatomy and physiology, but in no way a baseball or softball fan. With all of this, her explanation has been the best I've heard.

When I watch college, Olympic or amateur level softball or even girls playing in various baseball leagues, I am amazed at the velocity achieved by the players on the field, but always see throwing mechanics that are very distinguishably different from that of men/boys.

When I showed this to the wife and asked what she thought; she immediately said, "It's an anatomical difference between men and women". Now to try to keep this family oriented, she points out that women have additional landmarks on their chest not seen on men, that because of their location, prevent women from allowing their arm to cross freely in front of the chest just after release and follow through as men/boys do.

This is exactly what I see when watching women throw at any level; their arm stays on a straighter plane from taking the ball back, acceleration, release, and follow through, ending with their arms mostly next to their sides versus in front of the body as seen in men’s throws.

So, I don’t see this difference as a “coaching problem” as mentioned; inferring that girls are incapable of learning proper mechanics, or that somehow softball coaches are not as good as baseball coaches, but instead an anatomical difference that can’t be taught around

I make no claims of being a pitching/throwing instructor and cannot offer up any scientific documentation to this idea, but I can pick up a baseball, throw it, and follow my arm travel in front of my body. Also, to make sure that it wasn’t just an issue with my mechanics being messed up or something, video of MLB players shows the same movement of the upper arm coming in contact with the upper chest as they follow through.

So, admittedly I have no scientific proof, but merely offer this as an observation from a pretty knowlegable, nonbiased female and another option or thought provoking possibility.

Thoughts???

[hellborn]

Ummmm...none of my 8U girls have boobs.
Thank goodness.
I don't think that's why 2/3 - 3/4 of them pushed the ball when we started.
The point your glove at the target - reach back the other way with the ball - step forward with the front foot and throw - cue has helped a lot with most of them.
I know that's not how Nolan Ryan or Vlad Guerrero throw, but it gets them in the ballpark. If somebody has a better suggestion that 6-8 year old girls will follow and try, I'd like to hear it.

[Chris O'Leary]

The point your glove at the target - reach back the other way with the ball - step forward with the front foot and throw - cue has helped a lot with most of them.
I know that's not how Nolan Ryan or Vlad Guerrero throw, but it gets them in the ballpark. If somebody has a better suggestion that 6-8 year old girls will follow and try, I'd like to hear it.

That is basically how I teach kids to throw. Here's an article I just updated...

- Proper Throwing Mechanics (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ProperThrowingMechanics.html)

Teaching kids to get sideways to the target, to point the glove at the target as long as they can (to keep the shoulders closed), and to step directly at the target are the key cues to getting the entire body involved in the throw.

[DerbyDay03]

At the risk of opeing a can of worms here, I'm going to offer something that may raise a few eyebrows, but bare with me.

My wife and I have had this discussion several times over the years and I am going to tell you what she has concluded. First, a little background, she has spent over 30 years in the medical field, the last 10 as a professor at a local college and has great knowledge in anatomy and physiology, but in no way a baseball or softball fan. With all of this, her explanation has been the best I've heard.

When I watch college, Olympic or amateur level softball or even girls playing in various baseball leagues, I am amazed at the velocity achieved by the players on the field, but always see throwing mechanics that are very distinguishably different from that of men/boys.

When I showed this to the wife and asked what she thought; she immediately said, "It's an anatomical difference between men and women". Now to try to keep this family oriented, she points out that women have additional landmarks on their chest not seen on men, that because of their location, prevent women from allowing their arm to cross freely in front of the chest just after release and follow through as men/boys do.

This is exactly what I see when watching women throw at any level; their arm stays on a straighter plane from taking the ball back, acceleration, release, and follow through, ending with their arms mostly next to their sides versus in front of the body as seen in men’s throws.

So, I don’t see this difference as a “coaching problem” as mentioned; inferring that girls are incapable of learning proper mechanics, or that somehow softball coaches are not as good as baseball coaches, but instead an anatomical difference that can’t be taught around

I make no claims of being a pitching/throwing instructor and cannot offer up any scientific documentation to this idea, but I can pick up a baseball, throw it, and follow my arm travel in front of my body. Also, to make sure that it wasn’t just an issue with my mechanics being messed up or something, video of MLB players shows the same movement of the upper arm coming in contact with the upper chest as they follow through.

So, admittedly I have no scientific proof, but merely offer this as an observation from a pretty knowlegable, nonbiased female and another option or thought provoking possibility.

Thoughts???

With all due respect for your wife's anatomy and physiology expertise, her "landmark" theory would only apply if girls start to throw softballs after the arrival of said landmarks.

I think that many of the girls in question are throwing incorrectly way before any part of their upper anatomy gets in the way.

In addition, if their anatomy was preventing their arms from crossing their chests, wouldn't they all be batting with locked elbows and no follow through?

Finally, we haven't even mentioned the vast difference is sizes and shapes of the girls. If her theory was correct, then only those with landmarks above a certain size would have throwing problems. I think it's safe to say that regardless of shapes and sizes, some girls throw well and others do not.

[5LilPlayers]

When I showed this to the wife and asked what she thought; she immediately said, "It's an anatomical difference between men and women". Now to try to keep this family oriented, she points out that women have additional landmarks on their chest not seen on men, that because of their location, prevent women from allowing their arm to cross freely in front of the chest just after release and follow through as men/boys do.

<SNIP>

Thoughts???

I think it's also on how early you start girls, too...baseball or softball. I...well...after 5 kids...those "additional landmarks" have been even more prominent than the were originally (though I've always had bigger "landmarks")...I can throw across, but I think it's because I've played since I was 5.

We - females - don't grow overnight, so I think a lot of it has to do with compensating, figuring out how to 'cross', AS those landmarks grow.

Girls starting to play after puberty might never learn that cross...I don't know.

[mudvnine]

Ummmm...none of my 8U girls have boobs.
Thank goodness.I don't think that's why 2/3 - 3/4 of them pushed the ball when we started.
The point your glove at the target - reach back the other way with the ball - step forward with the front foot and throw - cue has helped a lot with most of them.
I know that's not how Nolan Ryan or Vlad Guerrero throw, but it gets them in the ballpark. If somebody has a better suggestion that 6-8 year old girls will follow and try, I'd like to hear it.

With all due respect for your wife's anatomy and physiology expertise, her "landmark" theory would only apply if girls start to throw softballs after the arrival of said landmarks.

I think that many of the girls in question are throwing incorrectly way before any part of their upper anatomy gets in the way.

I think it's safe to say that regardless of shapes and sizes, some girls throw well and others do not.



Hmmmmm, good point, something we obviouly overlooked, but interestingly enough you are looking for assistance in getting girls of that age group to get to a (for no better word) "closed" position that would force them into a more "acroos the body" arm plane that would better emulate the male form, when they inherently what to stay "open" and throw from top to bottom.

I wonder if it's not necessarily chest appendage anatomy as you pointed out, but rather different musculoskeletal anatomy that physiologically produces the difference in girls' throws and their approach to them. :shrug:

And with no disrespect to any female players and understanding that I haven't seen ALL female players, but I still have not seen ONE female that throws like her male counterparts. This is why I tend to lean towards an anatomy cause versus a training to starting age problem.

I could be easily swayed if someone can post a video of any female that throws like any MLB player or good HS player for that matter. :)

[TG Coach]

We're in Eastern MA so the kids can't play year round like in some of the warmer climates. Location and climate is not an issue. Either coaches know how to teach or they don't.

[TG Coach]

IMO is that we as a society have spent a great deal of time in the formative years of our girls lives instructing them, either overtly or covertly, about how females behave & to expect them to turn this behavior off when they step out on a ball field is probably a little much to expect.

And boys aren't taught to behave a certain way and change their behavior on the ball field? I've coached travel softball through 18U. I'm up to 16U in travel baseball. I've never seen a difference in intensity level from rec through travel. There are passive boys and girls in rec. There are intense boys and girls in travel.

[patsox]

[I]Either coaches know how to teach or they don't.

If you are arguing that the reason girls don't throw correctly is because of poor coaching, then how do you explain that coaches, like myself, who have both boys and girls (I have 2 boys and a girl), find that the boys throw like ball players and the girls in general don't? Do you think we're teaching the girls differently?

If you feel that you have the answer, then by all means let us know!

[dmullen]

[QUOTE=TG Coach;1196892 And boys aren't taught to behave a certain way and change their behavior on the ball field? I've coached travel softball through 18U. I'm up to 16U in travel baseball. I've never seen a difference in intensity level from rec through travel. There are passive boys and girls in rec. There are intense boys and girls in travel.[/QUOTE]

You may find fewer passive kids in travel as they get older (probably by 16U the passive ones are gone) - but I still believe that the competitive (intense) tendency found in athletics is a function of how the kid was raised (cultural/societal expectations) as opposed to any physical difference associated with the gender of a child. If a girl throws a baseball like a girl - then what is the big deal (so I throw the ball like a girl I am a girl), but if a boy throws a baseball like a girl - (so I throw the ball like a girl - I quit because I am a boy). The ability to throw a softball is the result of opportunity, expectations, desire, training and success within that training - very few young girls (relative to boys) have any desire to throw a ball like a boy (does that surprise anyone) just like very few young boys have the desire to do anything like a girl.

[mudvnine]

Wow, how off topic can we get? I thought we were talking about why girls and boys do a physical, learnable skill, and seem to do it so inherently different. I didn’t think this was ever about intensity or desire or, behavior unless you can somehow tie any of these personal characteristics into a physical event.

. . . very few young girls (relative to boys) have any desire to throw a ball like a boy (does that surprise anyone)
Ok, so “very few” girls have the desire to throw like a boy, but isn’t there at least one out there, like I said earlier have never seen ONE . . . any video out there? I’d love to be proven wrong and see a female ball player throw with the same mechanics as her male counterparts.

Can’t believe all of them “just don’t want to”. :disbelief:

So if it's not anatomy or coaching what is it??? . . . Desire? . . . Really?? :rolleyes:

[TonyK]

My daughter always threw like a girl when she played softball. It was her one weakness that she never wanted to correct. She also served like a girl when she played HS volleyball. When it was her turn to serve, I often looked down at my sneakers so I wouldn't have to see the ball hit into the net. Some coaches helped her and others didn't.

It bothered her and she preferred not to practice serving before matches because she was too self-conscious. But I cheered when she made an ace every so often.

[captlid]

8 years ago when I joined a women's baseball league, was apparently branded a lesbian just because was so "aggressive" on the field. I didn't know how to be anything but aggressive after coming from playing roller hockey with guys in the winter and sandlot baseball with teenage guys. There wasn't a choice in the matter. Either you play your hardest and then some or get eaten on the court of play.

Still to this day when I play with guys, gotta jack up the level of aggression at least 5 notches just to keep up.

Oh, and my breasts in no way impede throwing. :)
Had some young kid ask me that once. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

I actually do think throwing HARD is something that a player has to desire. As a teenager, I remember the guys telling me, "girl, beam that ******." when I was on the mound or behind the plate. We played on a full size baseball field, and the size of the field forced me to learn NOT TO PUSH the ball.

You really have to be aggressive on the field to succeed in prevailing over your opponent. Every coach [and teammate] I have ever had has encouraged that.

Its very painful to watch some of the girls softball and not see the coaches demanding that out of their players. [Attitudes like a walk is as good as a hit gotta go.] My father treated me like daddy's little girl, but at the same time, he taught me about competition.

[Swing Coach]

What is getting confused here is more than one definition of "throwing like a girl" The thread started by stating the definition of a girl holding the ball like a shot-put and then "shot-putting" it when she throws. THis is totally because the ball does not fit in her hand when she was younger and thus, she was not able to get her hand on the top and bring her hand down and back.

The other definition of throwing like a girl brought up here is that more sexist with the implication that girls are "wusses" or "weak" so if you don't throw well you are throwing like a girl. Not sure why the discussion turned that way, but it shouldn't have.

My definition of this statement has always been linked to the size of the ball and improper throwing mechanics -- hence the start of this thread.

SC

[TG Coach]

Its very painful to watch some of the girls softball and not see the coaches demanding that out of their players.

You must be talking about rec ball. I've never seen anything but optimum performance expected in travel.

[TG Coach]

... but I still believe that the competitive (intense) tendency found in athletics is a function of how the kid was raised (cultural/societal expectations) as opposed to any physical difference associated with the gender of a child.

Wrong. It's based on their passion for the game and the desire to excel. I've seen intense athletes with passive parents and vice versa.

[TG Coach]

If you are arguing that the reason girls don't throw correctly is because of poor coaching, then how do you explain that coaches, like myself, who have both boys and girls (I have 2 boys and a girl), find that the boys throw like ball players and the girls in general don't? Do you think we're teaching the girls differently?

If you feel that you have the answer, then by all means let us know!

I've seen several dads with baseball playing boys who didn't teach their girls to throw properly. I've seen plenty of boys who throw like girls. Throwing isn't that natural for everyone regardless of gender. Usually it's the kids who get out and throw a lot who get it right.

[Go Cardinals]

... but I still believe that the competitive (intense) tendency found in athletics is a function of how the kid was raised (cultural/societal expectations) as opposed to any physical difference associated with the gender of a child.

Wrong. It's based on their passion for the game and the desire to excel. I've seen intense athletes with passive parents and vice versa.

I think some of it has to do with family. My dad and I are very competitive. We've argued things from politics to board games for hours all in competitive yet fun nature. It must come from some where. My dad is competitive in everything he does, and so am I. Whether its baseball or a game of ping pong or risk, I want to win. This has to have some correlation.

Also, I think older brothers (athletic ones) could have an influence on intensity. My brother and I have played games of basketball to 21 that last for an hour (neither of us are bad either).

I think that I do have something in me to want to succeed, but how I was raised and my relationships with my family has to have some sort of effect.

[Go Cardinals]

I've seen several dads with baseball playing boys who didn't teach their girls to throw properly. I've seen plenty of boys who throw like girls. Throwing isn't that natural for everyone regardless of gender. Usually it's the kids who get out and throw a lot who get it right.

I think there is some great evidence for what you stated above. Go to a hs and find some boys and girls who don't play softball, football, baseball, or Water polo and you'll see how many people cannot throw.

[TG Coach]

The most intense high school athlete I've known was a softball player. She also played basketball. She'd just as soon kick you butt as look at you. Her parents were two of the most mealy mouth people I've ever met. The girl loved sports and wanted to win badly.

[5LilPlayers]

I think some of it has to do with family. My dad and I are very competitive. We've argued things from politics to board games for hours all in competitive yet fun nature. It must come from some where. My dad is competitive in everything he does, and so am I. Whether its baseball or a game of ping pong or risk, I want to win. This has to have some correlation.

Also, I think older brothers (athletic ones) could have an influence on intensity. My brother and I have played games of basketball to 21 that last for an hour (neither of us are bad either).

My dad was never around (in 18 years of playing ball, he was at MAYBE 2 of my games), and my mom wasn't competitive at all...though she was the one down on her knees letting me pitch and cheering excessively at games (and STILL has no clue what she's cheering about LOL)....and I was raised an only.

I was adopted at 3 mos. old...finally met my birth mom (and sisters) a few years ago...my sisters aren't competitive at all, either...but we all have different dads, my birth mom isn't competitive, either, but said my birth father was a very intense ball player (thought he played football).

Could competitiveness be a gene?? Highly unlikely...I would think...but with as much as we know about genes, there's still a lot we don't know. *shrug*

[mudvnine]

Oh, and my breasts in no way impede throwing. :)
Had some young kid ask me that once. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

Ok captlid, I hope you laughed, because after looking at the Olympic softball team warming up in the following video I can see that the wife's theory was flawed. It's obvious that they do bring their arms across their chest in the follow-through.

Olympic Softball 2004: Warming Up Before The Final Game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3rdvQdnhI0&feature=related)

But it's also obvious that their throwing mechanics are still different from that of men. Now I'm assuming that these Olympians are at the highest level of women's softball around and that their hands are large enough to hold the softball properly. Which seems to be the theory of the smaller female "shot put" throw, but still doesn't answer the question as to why do grown women still throw differently?

So, if we are conclude that it's not an external anatomical issue, is there any merit to the different musculoskeletal issues between men and women? I still find it hard to simply dismiss it as an attitude or desire issue as captlid maintains; which seems more demeaning and far more sexist then something spouted a kid on the sandlot teasing his buddy.

Captlid, if you believe that you throw a baseball like men (and I'm not saying you don't), could you possibly post video proof, as I'm not able to find any out there on the Internet?

[Chris O'Leary]

But it's also obvious that their throwing mechanics are still different from that of men. Now I'm assuming that these Olympians are at the highest level of women's softball around and that their hands are large enough to hold the softball properly. Which seems to be the theory of the smaller female "shot put" throw, but still doesn't answer the question as to why do grown women still throw differently?

It has been established that women experience higher rates of knee and other injuries than men due to anatomical differences.

The NY Times discussed this topic a couple of weeks ago.

[patsox]

That Olympic video was pretty interesting. I would submit that although they don't throw exactly like men, they do throw like ball players, which is really what I'd like to see more out of with the youth softball players I coach.

It's interesting to note that the infielders seem to be taught a different throwing style than the outfielders. The infielders have to get rid of the ball quickly and don't have that long a throw so it's more of a snap throw, whereas the outfielders stretch back with a more traditional throwing style.

Here's another good video of high level softball players throwing. I send this link to my team at the beginning of the season along with telling them that I expect them to play catch every day although at the rec level anyways I'm not sure they are doing either one.

http://www.sportskool.com/videos/throwing

[DerbyDay03]

That Olympic video was pretty interesting. I would submit that although they don't throw exactly like men, they do throw like ball players, which is really what I'd like to see more out of with the youth softball players I coach.



Next practice, while the girls are warming up, video tape their throws.

The following practice, start it with a meeting around a TV/computer and show them the sportskool video along with their video. Don't make an example out of any one player, but point out the differences in the mechanics.

If a picture is worth a 1000 words, what's a video worth?

[tom.guerry]

patsox-

Thanks for the Candrea/sportskool link.

Candrea gets a lot of stuff right as with hitting, but more info is better, and necessary to understand teaching of throwing and hitting together as Candrea (slaught in the case of hitting) also recommends.

The key missing information here are the details of arm action and how to synch upper and lower body which are best explained by Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

Hodge describes the arm action using simple but powerful kinesiologically based terminology which makes much more sense in explaining the difference between the "bow and arrow" (flawed) vs "circling up" (high level) arm loading action.

Hodge also has a useful drill using the nerf football with tail as a way of seeing the desired type of circling up activity.

The two main/huge/dealbreaker problems with the candrea video are the use of the static "high cock" position (Dick Mills) and the separation of drills into a separate then combined upper and lower body progression.

The way candrea demonstrates the "high cock position" FORCES/INGRAINS a FATAL arm action flaw best described by Hodge as "premature external rotation" of the back arm.

The synched external rotation of the back arm and front leg is the PRIMARY action that synchs the upper and lower body well for good tining of coil/loading.

What candrea is showing is externally rotating the back arm to lift the throwing hand to the "high cock position" while the stride foot is still closed (stride leg has not started externally rotating yet).

In a well timed/loaded synching of the upper and lower body, the front foot needs to be turned open by external rotation of the front leg simultaneous to external rotation of the back arm. If anything, the back arm has to be trained to "permit" the front leg to go first by a (small) fraction of a second. At the same time, the lead arm needs to STAY actively internally rotated (same phase as winding rubberband/rotating into toe touch in MLB hitting pattern).

Whether you make a LONG circle up (long arm action as for outfield) or shorten it (short arm circle as for catcher/infield), the synch of upper and lower body is via simultaneous external rotation NOT PREMATURE external rotation where the throwing hand comes ups BEFORE the front leg starts to turn open.

Once you understand the arm action sequence AND the lower body synch, THEN you can design forward chaining drills and backward chaingin drills using the whole body as opposed to drills isolating the upper body then adding the lower body.

Understanding this then lets you use positions and dynamics that are VERY similar to the live/full speed motion and carryover easily toimproving your "mechanics".

[TG Coach]

Captlid, if you believe that you throw a baseball like men (and I'm not saying you don't), could you possibly post video proof, as I'm not able to find any out there on the Internet?

Why are you under the impression a woman would throw differently? My daughter plays softball. She's an outfielder. She throws a softball the same way my son throws a baseball.

Since there are a lot of snap throws in softball in the infield due to the short basepaths, I believe you are under the impression women throw differently. Softball players just make a lot of snap throws. A softball infielder doesn't have the time to knock the ball down, find it, set their feet and throw. It's knock it down, find it quickly and snap throw.

[TG Coach]

It has been established that women experience higher rates of knee and other injuries than men due to anatomical differences.

The NY Times discussed this topic a couple of weeks ago.

What does this have to do with throwing? But, for the record regarding leg related injuries, the significant difference is the hips.

[Chris O'Leary]

What does this have to do with throwing? But, for the record regarding leg related injuries, the significant difference is the hips.

The differences aren't just limited to the hips...

- http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/magazine/11Girls-t.html?pagewanted=1

"Girls are more likely to suffer chronic knee pain as well as shinsplints and stress fractures. Some research indicates that they are more prone to ankle sprains, as well as hip and back pain. And for all the justifiable attention paid to concussions among football players, females appear to be more prone to them in sports that the sexes play in common. A study last year by researchers at Ohio State University and Nationwide Children’s Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, reported that high-school girls who play basketball suffer concussions at three times the rate of boys, and that the rate for high-school girls who play soccer is about 1.5 times the rate for boys. According to the N.C.A.A. statistics, women who play soccer suffer concussions at nearly identical rates as male football players. (The research indicates that it takes less force to cause a concussion in girls and young women, perhaps because they have smaller heads and weaker necks.)"

Puberty and Estrogen have wide, systemic impacts.

If it's affecting the knee joint, it might be affecting other joints as well.

[TonyK]

Some European men find it unnatural to throw a baseball overhanded. They don't throw like a girl, but it looks awkward, and they cannot throw the ball very far or very fast.

[TG Coach]

The differences aren't just limited to the hips...

- http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/magazine/11Girls-t.html?pagewanted=1

"Girls are more likely to suffer chronic knee pain as well as shinsplints and stress fractures. Some research indicates that they are more prone to ankle sprains, as well as hip and back pain. And for all the justifiable attention paid to concussions among football players, females appear to be more prone to them in sports that the sexes play in common. A study last year by researchers at Ohio State University and Nationwide Children’s Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, reported that high-school girls who play basketball suffer concussions at three times the rate of boys, and that the rate for high-school girls who play soccer is about 1.5 times the rate for boys. According to the N.C.A.A. statistics, women who play soccer suffer concussions at nearly identical rates as male football players. (The research indicates that it takes less force to cause a concussion in girls and young women, perhaps because they have smaller heads and weaker necks.)"

Puberty and Estrogen have wide, systemic impacts.

If it's affecting the knee joint, it might be affecting other joints as well.

What does this have to do with throwing?

[mudvnine]

Why are you under the impression a woman would throw differently? My daughter plays softball. She's an outfielder. She throws a softball the same way my son throws a baseball.

Since there are a lot of snap throws in softball in the infield due to the short basepaths, I believe you are under the impression women throw differently. Softball players just make a lot of snap throws. A softball infielder doesn't have the time to knock the ball down, find it, set their feet and throw. It's knock it down, find it quickly and snap throw.

Just wake up Coach? It's the topic we're discussing for the past 70 or so posts and I thought I've been pretty clear on why I believe that. :disbelief:

Oh, and did you get a chance to look at the Olympic Warm-up video? Think it might answer your question also. I've seen Jeter, Young, Cabrera, Eckstein, Furcal, Cano, Kennedy, Utley, Kinsler . . . . all make snap throws and they don't make the same snap throws as the women Olympians.

Haven't seen your son or daughter throw, so no comment there.

.

[LAball]

Id say girls throw like girls because they just arent wire like guys. Males are the physical athletes of people, girls are wired more in a mental way, such as in academics. My son has a hard time at school, not because he's not smart, its just all the rules he has to follow, he just forgets. The boys just get in trouble more often. Girls learning different different languages at a very young age is amazing..

[LAball]

A baseball weighs 5 oz? How much does a softball weigh? :lookitup

[LAball]

I like to watch girl sports sometimes to study technique. I notice their fundamental movements are more pronounced then boys, because the boys can get away without using fundamentals usually by mixing in athletic talent.

[jofus13]

A baseball weighs 5 oz? How much does a softball weigh? :lookitup


"The weight of a baseball must be between 5 and 5 ¼ ounces (142 to 149 grams) and its circumference from 9 to 9 ¼ inches (22.9 to 23.5 centimeters)."

"For a 12" ball the min weight is 178.0g (6 1/4oz.) and a max of 198.4g (7 oz.) and for an 11" ball 166.5g (5 7/8oz.) is the min and 173.6g (6 1/8oz.) is the max."


I think some of you guys need to go watch a serious fastpitch tournament, btw :)

[virg]

I think some of you guys need to go watch a serious fastpitch tournament, btw :)

wouldn't take much "serious".

Again, the peg is in the wrist and forearm muscles that drive it. The wrist is used at peak arm speed to provide a power boost when resistance from the ball is greatest. No wrist=no power boost.

[5LilPlayers]

I like to watch girl sports sometimes to study technique. I notice their fundamental movements are more pronounced then boys, because the boys can get away without using fundamentals usually by mixing in athletic talent.

So girls have no athletic talent and aren't/can't be physical athletes??????

[TG Coach]

So girls have no athletic talent and aren't/can't be physical athletes?

Post puberty girls don't have comparable athletic ability. They do tend to be more fundamentally sound. Mia Hamm was once asked if she had considered playing in the MLS. She choked over the question. She explained the levels of strength and athletic ability can't be compared. She said her Team USA Soccer team, which won the World Cup, struggles against state champion level U19 boys teams.

[Chris O'Leary]

I like to watch girl sports sometimes to study technique. I notice their fundamental movements are more pronounced then boys, because the boys can get away without using fundamentals usually by mixing in athletic talent.

Or brute strength.

Many of my boy ballplayers are extremely inefficient in their mechanics (e.g. all arm) but get away with it because they are also extremely strong.

Of course, that means they are leaving a lot on the table in terms of hitting and pitching.

If they could only combine strength and good technique...

[LAball]

If they could only combine strength and good technique...


:nosleep: hard work, luck, and the force :D


Or brute strength

Another raw steak please

[5LilPlayers]

So girls have no athletic talent and aren't/can't be physical athletes?

Post puberty girls don't have comparable athletic ability.

Right, but that doesn't mean they can't have athletic talent OR be physical athletes.

[Chris O'Leary]

Just to revisit this issue briefly.

I was watching the fifth grade girls rec B softball team warm up before my 7th grade boys team's practice, and they all "threw like a girl."

The key issue is that they ALL set up facing the target and then threw all arm.

I coach many of these girls for soccer, and know that some of them are reasonable athletes, so I think the issue is that they were never taught how to throw properly. It was killing me to watch them, but the coach evidently didn't know (or got tired of trying) to get them to start out sideways to the target.

I'm going to offer to run a throwing clinic in February of next year and try to teach the coaches how to teach kids (boys and girls) how to throw.

[patsox]

so I think the issue is that they were never taught how to throw properly.

I just can't come to that conclusion. My baseball team of 9/10 yo boys throw just fine ... with the exact same level of throwing training as my 11/12 yo girls softball team. And that training was pretty much none.

It was killing me to watch them, but the coach evidently didn't know (or got tired of trying) to get them to start out sideways to the target.


If the player is not your own kids, the couple hours a week the coaches have the kids is just not enough to drill new throwing patterns into them. Believe me, I've tried and if you spend the entire season getting 12 girls to throw correctly, that's about all you'll have time for.

I agree that girls can be taught to throw correctly, but it takes a steady and consistent effort. I also think that one of the big reasons boys throw better is that they simply do it more from a young age. Boys go outside and "play catch". I just don't see girls doing that. They play catch at the beginning of softball practice because they are told to, not just because there's a tennis ball laying around.

[5LilPlayers]

I agree that girls can be taught to throw correctly, but it takes a steady and consistent effort. I also think that one of the big reasons boys throw better is that they simply do it more from a young age. Boys go outside and "play catch". I just don't see girls doing that. They play catch at the beginning of softball practice because they are told to, not just because there's a tennis ball laying around.

Generally speaking....yeah. But what about the girls who DO start playing catch at a younger age? I've seen it in my neighborhood. The whole neighborhood would be out (girls and boys) with a few balls at the local park when we were around 4 or 5 and up. A lot of the girls who started "playing" early still threw like girls, even in their senior yr. of high school, but again, that could just be the size of the ball....as they all went on to softball, most while still in K or 1st grade. We would use any ball we could find when we were younger, though. Baseballs, softballs, tennis balls, whiffle balls....if it was round, we were throwing (and hitting) it.