Metal Bat Law Suit

[Jake Patterson]

It finally happened...

According to Wayne Parry of the Associated Press, Joseph Domalewski of Passaic County filed a law suit in state Superior Court against Little League Baseball, Hillerich and Bradsby (H&B) and Sport's Authority for the near-death accident of their 14 y/o son Steven. The line drive to the chest, batted by a Louisville Slugger TPX Platinum bat, left Steven a near vegetable after his heart stopped.

Steven Keener, president of LLI declined to comment.

Maybe this will get people to take the problem seriously. If a parent wins a law suit, that will be the beginning of the end for metal bats in youth baseball.

Jake

Source: Norwich Bulletin, Sunday, May 18, 2008, page C8.

[TG Coach]

With all due respect for the tragedy involved, if the family wins this lawsuit it will be due to an ignorant jury feeling the big bad corporations always are at fault. There are inherent risks with sports. The kids father was his coach. As a coach he had to know the risks. He choose to put his son on the mound.

Always follow the money trail. The anticipated annual costs of supporting the boy is extremely high. The parents are looking to bleed the costs from the corporations. Why else would they name Sports Authority as a defendant? All SA did was sell the bat.

Why would Kenner/LL respond? The injury didn't happen in a LL game. It happened in PAL game. But PAL doesn't have any money. LL has money. LL does not claim metal bats are safe. LL has provided per capita injury stats (regardless of opinion and testing) there haven't been more injuries with metal bats than wood bats.

My condolences to the family. But the dad could have told his son pitching isn't 100% safe and therefore he can't pitch. All that's happening here is a lawyer will get a lot of visibility he couldn't afford with an advertising budget.

[TG Coach]

If I'm the attorney for the defendants I'd say the boy is a little reckless and the family allows it .....

Less than two years ago, Domalewski was a happy, healthy star pitcher on a youth baseball team coached by his father. He loved martial arts, climbed every tree on the block and zoomed down his street on inline skates. He once shot an arrow into the wall of his basement rec room.

This is going to be ugly.

[Jake Patterson]

LL has provided per capita injury stats (regardless of opinion and testing) there haven't been more injuries with metal bats than wood bats. And you truly believe that there are only "20-30" annual batted ball injuries with pitchers in all of LLI? 2.3M players.

[TG Coach]

And you truly believe that there are only "20-30" annual batted ball injuries with pitchers in all of LLI? 2.3M players.

I can only believe the data presented. I can't believe otherwise until credible sources prove without doubt the data is incorrect. Either way the lawsuit is a frivilous money grab. The parents understood the risks. They chose to allow their son to play baseball and pitch.

[jima]

TG, you are a smart guy and you have been around baseball. Its hard for me to believe that you can't see that metal bats are more dangerous than wood or composite. Regardless, of LL's so called injury stats, parents like you see first hand that the larger sweet spot and trampoline effect pose a greater risk. Clearly, wood bats hit the ball hard enough to be of risk also, by why ratchet up the exit speed to satisfy the pockets of the bat manufacturers? The question is how much risk do we want to take...by the way, LL are totally dimwitted on the subject...you should see the e-mail Kenner sent out to Va LL parents suggesting we sign up for a website called "don't take our bats away". It should be called, "don't kill the cash cow". Hope your boy had a good freshman year. jima

[CoachHenry]

LL Baseball has rules govering what bats are allowed to be used. If this goes very far it should stop right there. If I make a bat that allows you to send the ball to the moon, and LL Baseball allows it's use, then is the bat maufacturer to blame? Are they hiding anything? Not, the bat companies advertise and tout performace and if they are approved for LL Play then ..... well then LL is the first stop. However I don't think they should be blamed either. Inherent risks, etc.

[CoachHenry]

TG, you are a smart guy and you have been around baseball. Its hard for me to believe that you can't see that metal bats are more dangerous than wood or composite. Regardless, of LL's so called injury stats, parents like you see first hand that the larger sweet spot and trampoline effect pose a greater risk. Clearly, wood bats hit the ball hard enough to be of risk also, by why ratchet up the exit speed to satisfy the pockets of the bat manufacturers? The question is how much risk do we want to take...by the way, LL are totally dimwitted on the subject...you should see the e-mail Kenner sent out to Va LL parents suggesting we sign up for a website called "don't take our bats away". It should be called, "don't kill the cash cow". Hope your boy had a good freshman year. jima

I don't think he's saying they are or aren't more dangerous. It's not a matter of what is more dangerous in this lawsuit. Wiffle ball bats are less dangerous then wood and rolled up newspaper bats are less dangerous still. If the league allows it then everybody has the choice to participate or not.

[TG Coach]

Its hard for me to believe that you can't see that metal bats are more dangerous than wood or composite.

It doesn't matter what our opinions are. It's a lawsuit. The lawsuit is about LL, Sports Authority and Louisville Slugger's liability. I say they have none. It will be about facts. I have a choice of whether or not I allow my son to pitch. He pitches. I understand the possible risks. If he gets injured it's on me, not youth baseball and bat manufacturers. They aren't the one's deciding whether or not my son pitches.

Do you think the kid's father bought him son a wood bat? Or do you think he might have bought his son the best metal bat he could afford? What are the odds this question comes up in court?

I'm not defending metal bats. I'm discussing the lawsuit. Don't confuse the two.

[TG Coach]

LL Baseball has rules govering what bats are allowed to be used.

What are PAL's rules? This happened in a PAL game. If PAL defaults to LL rules, why should LL be liable for PAL's players? PAL made the decision.

[CoachHenry]

LL Baseball has rules govering what bats are allowed to be used.

What are PAL's rules? This happened in a PAL game. If PAL defaults to LL rules, why should LL be liable for PAL's players? PAL made the decision.

I didn't see PAL in the post. I seen that Little League Baseball was part of the suit. Have I gone blind?

[TG Coach]

The kid played in PAL. The parents are suing LL because they believe LL sets the standards for youth bats. PAL is responsible for the bats they allow, not LL. I say the lawyer is trying to connect LL to the situation because PAL doesn't have money and LL does. Always follow the money trail.

[CoachHenry]

The kid played in PAL. The parents are suing LL because they believe LL sets the standards for youth bats. PAL is responsible for the bats they allow, not LL. I say the lawyer is trying to connect LL to the situation because PAL doesn't have money and LL does. Always follow the money trail.


OK. I guess I don't know what PAL is.

[Riverbase]

PAL = Police Athletic Leage. Heres some articles reguarding metal vs wood, and the full story about the lawsuit, notice more deaths from wood than metal.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24682296/

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/ban-safety.html

[jima]

TG- I agree with you re: the lawsuit...but since this is a baseball site, I prefer to deal with the "metal bat is more dangerous issue". And look, if a lawsuit gets someone's attention, than I'm not going to complain. jima

[Jake Patterson]

TG- I agree with you re: the lawsuit...but since this is a baseball site, I prefer to deal with the "metal bat is more dangerous issue". And look, if a lawsuit gets someone's attention, than I'm not going to complain. jima
Here's the issue... We all know that metal bats out-perform wood. There has been enough studies on that issue to prove that the trampoline effect, flexibility, collapsible walls, high drops, etc. have all increased the BESR. If it didn't there would be no need for "BESR" requirements. If the BESR goes up there is a higher chance of injury. So we can go back and throw up all the reports that exist, but that is not the intent of this thread.

I feel those who first brought to light the dangers of metal bats have switched to the dark side and now make the information gray enough to perpetuate the problem. These obscure scientists who worked in obscure labs who developed ways to measure BESR now find themselves in the lime-light and they like it. They, like many academic researchers would have gone unnoticed had the issue not been so pressing. If any of these guys, and there are only 3-4, came out with a definitive answer they would all slip back into obscurity. Right now they enjoy the notoriety of their vague papers and there consulting fees from bat manufacturers.

I feel the law suit is exactly what is needed to force organizations like LLI into a more reasonable position. Why not wood? Answer THAT question and you will find who is at fault.

Also if you for one minute believe there are only 20-30 batted ball to the pitcher or third base injuries in LLI you are sadly mistaken. I would offer most are not reported. LLI should be ashamed of themselves for posting this number. Many organizations have coaches in metal bat leagues now receive special training on sudden impact syndrome. Why do you think that is?

[runningshoes]

If I'm the attorney for the defendants I'd say the boy is a little reckless and the family allows it .....

I'd tell you what I'm thinking right now, but you're such a smart guy, you can probably figure it out. ;)

[korp]

I wonder if it could be the end of aluminum bats or moving the bases distance earlier or changing the minus number of the bat. Wood bats just seem to expensive to deal with especially if they can just change other things.

[TG Coach]

I'd tell you what I'm thinking right now, but you're such a smart guy, you can probably figure it out. ;)

I'm detaching myself from the situation and thinking how an attorney will respond. You don't think the attorney is going to question the parent's judegement placing their son on the mound and other activities and their knowledge of the risks? The court room is hardball.

But thank you for the personal attack on my opinion of how a piece of information might be used in court.

[TG Coach]

I wonder if it could be the end of aluminum bats or moving the bases distance earlier or changing the minus number of the bat. Wood bats just seem to expensive to deal with especially if they can just change other things.

Maybe it could be the beginning of the personal accountability era, where we calculate the risks and take responsibility for our decisions.

[TG Coach]

TG- I agree with you re: the lawsuit...but since this is a baseball site, I prefer to deal with the "metal bat is more dangerous issue". And look, if a lawsuit gets someone's attention, than I'm not going to complain. jima

I believe the metal v. wood debate has been beat to death. Wasn't the last one when NYC banned metal bats? Or was it when PA proposed a ban (didn't pass)?

[TG Coach]

Many organizations have coaches in metal bat leagues now receive special training on sudden impact syndrome. Why do you think that is?

Fear mongering and a need to CYA due to fear mongering.

[Jake Patterson]

Many organizations have coaches in metal bat leagues now receive special training on sudden impact syndrome. Why do you think that is?

Fear mongering and a need to CYA due to fear mongering. That's all?

[TG Coach]

That's all?

The fear mongering creates fear of a lawsuit. Given there have been 180 incidents in twenty years and considering how many children have played baseball and softball over the past twenty years, the odds have to be in the .00000000001 range. Therefore, I'll stick with fear mongering and CYA.

Our youth sports organization has all the equipment. We've had it for several years. 4,000 kids participate each year in several sports. Many participate in three seasons. The equipment has never been touched. In the fourteen years I've been involved I think there have been a handful of broken arms and broken legs as the most serious injuries.

[hawkiirock]

i agree that no jury should side with the plaintiff. Might as well sue riddell for neck injuries in a football game. Or sue whoever makes the hockey skates that can slice a neck. Yeah those are extremes b/c there aren't a lot of alternatives but suing all the time really starts affecting other aspects as wellWith all due respect for the tragedy involved, if the family wins this lawsuit it will be due to an ignorant jury feeling the big bad corporations always are at fault. There are inherent risks with sports. The kids father was his coach. As a coach he had to know the risks. He choose to put his son on the mound.

Always follow the money trail. The anticipated annual costs of supporting the boy is extremely high. The parents are looking to bleed the costs from the corporations. Why else would they name Sports Authority as a defendant? All SA did was sell the bat.

Why would Kenner/LL respond? The injury didn't happen in a LL game. It happened in PAL game. But PAL doesn't have any money. LL has money. LL does not claim metal bats are safe. LL has provided per capita injury stats (regardless of opinion and testing) there haven't been more injuries with metal bats than wood bats.

My condolences to the family. But the dad could have told his son pitching isn't 100% safe and therefore he can't pitch. All that's happening here is a lawyer will get a lot of visibility he couldn't afford with an advertising budget.

[hawkiirock]

the injured player mightve been using aluminum as well. That could present a problem in courtTG, you are a smart guy and you have been around baseball. Its hard for me to believe that you can't see that metal bats are more dangerous than wood or composite. Regardless, of LL's so called injury stats, parents like you see first hand that the larger sweet spot and trampoline effect pose a greater risk. Clearly, wood bats hit the ball hard enough to be of risk also, by why ratchet up the exit speed to satisfy the pockets of the bat manufacturers? The question is how much risk do we want to take...by the way, LL are totally dimwitted on the subject...you should see the e-mail Kenner sent out to Va LL parents suggesting we sign up for a website called "don't take our bats away". It should be called, "don't kill the cash cow". Hope your boy had a good freshman year. jima

[hawkiirock]

man that is a sad story. How heartbreaking would that be? I feel terrible for that boy and his parents



I still don't feel like they should win a lawsuit. There is a known risk with all sports


here is the last paragraph of the 2nd link posted above


My ultimate conclusion as a scientist, after investigating these questions, is that metal baseball bats currently legal for play under NCAA and NFHS regulations do not pose a safety risk that is significantly greater than the risk of playing baseball with wood bats. Injury statistics over the last 30 years indicate that baseball is one of the safest team sports played by high school and college players. Severe injuries resulting from pitchers being struck by batted balls, are tragic, but are extremely rare. The available scientific evidence suggests that banning metal bats will not necessarily make the game of baseball any safer.

[new2thesport]

I feel sad for the family. It is a parents worst nightmare in baseball. I know I suit my son up with a batting helmet with a face mask(the helmet is required but not the face mask). No other batting helmet on the team had a face mask and the coach told me that I can take the face mask off. I didnt have a screwdriver so I left it on. Minutes later, my son was up to bat and a foul ball came off the bat and hit him square in the face mask with jolted his head backward. I said to myself that the face mask will not come off and remain on his helmet. I was glad that it was on the helmet.

I also suit him up with an undershirt called torso-tection. It is not noticible. I bought it since one day we were playing catch and I was throwing to him and it bounced on the ground and hit him in his solar plex. Hecrumpled down in pain and he shyed away from the balls there after. After a few weeks, I ordered this undershirt to protect him. He got his confidence back a few weeks after he started to wear it . He doesnt need it now but I always had him suit up with it just in case something happens.

http://www.aluminumbats.com/ProductImages/apparel/easton/a164190.jpg


It reminds me of a super light kevlar bullet proof vest. It may just help this type of injury that was suffered by the 14 year old pitcher. What do you think?

[Jake Patterson]

My ultimate conclusion as a scientist, after investigating these questions, is that metal baseball bats currently legal for play under NCAA and NFHS regulations do not pose a safety risk that is significantly greater than the risk of playing baseball with wood bats. Injury statistics over the last 30 years indicate that baseball is one of the safest team sports played by high school and college players. Severe injuries resulting from pitchers being struck by batted balls, are tragic, but are extremely rare. The available scientific evidence suggests that banning metal bats will not necessarily make the game of baseball any safer.
This conclusion is wrong. I would suggest you review old threads on the topic (there is enough scientific information posted here) and/or Google the topic. If you critically review (as a scientist) the data developed by Kettering you will come to a different conclusion.

[StraightGrain11]

I wonder if it could be the end of aluminum bats or moving the bases distance earlier or changing the minus number of the bat. Wood bats just seem to expensive to deal with especially if they can just change other things.

"Too expensive", how? COMPOSITE WOOD BATS will last you as long as almost any aluminum bat (retains its "pop"). Especially where I play, in MI. The constant cold/hot/cold/hot weather has a very large impact on the life of bats - we usually send 2-3 back a SEASON because of cracking. We now, also, have 3 Brett Bros composite bats - no cracks, no breaks, no returns.
Here's the other thing to consider:
- GOOD Youth Composite Wood Bat: $50
- GOOD Youth Aluminum Bat: $200

So how is wood "MORE expensive"?

I guess the only other "beneficial" thing I can see coming out of a switch to wood would be that our kids might actually become BETTER HITTERS, but no one probably cares about the ether. :dismay:
- I'll be waiting to see what kind of hitters are coming out of New York in 10 yrs...:think:

[wogdoggy]

"Too expensive", how? COMPOSITE WOOD BATS will last you as long as almost any aluminum bat (retains its "pop"). Especially where I play, in MI. The constant cold/hot/cold/hot weather has a very large impact on the life of bats - we usually send 2-3 back a SEASON because of cracking. We now, also, have 3 Brett Bros composite bats - no cracks, no breaks, no returns.
Here's the other thing to consider:
- GOOD Youth Composite Wood Bat: $50
- GOOD Youth Aluminum Bat: $200

So how is wood "MORE expensive"?

I guess the only other "beneficial" thing I can see coming out of a switch to wood would be that our kids might actually become BETTER HITTERS, but no one probably cares about the ether. :dismay:
- I'll be waiting to see what kind of hitters are coming out of New York in 10 yrs...:think:



I couldnt agree more ,why not make composites or wood bats the standard?
My kid loves to pitch and believe me I pray every time he takes the mound he doesnt get hurt.Common sense and personal experience tells me these bats are built hot with extraordanirly large sweet spots.This isnt a conservative liberal arguement,and YES T.G.,,he chooses to pitch and I approve it BUT if we as ADULTS both conservs and libs can significantly cut injuries to our kids buy a minor bat rule WHY NOT? the CORPORATION can make the ADJUSTMENTS,and believe me they will...

You dont need "STATS" to know these metal bats are weapons do you?:disbelief:

[Chris O'Leary]

Maybe this will get people to take the problem seriously. If a parent wins a law suit, that will be the beginning of the end for metal bats in youth baseball.

Again, the problem isn't metal bats.

Rather, the problem is HIGH PERFORMANCE metal bats.

You can engineer a bat to behave the same as wood but be more durable.

If you ban metal bats, you are going to exclude a lot of kids from the game, and that IMO would be a very bad thing given the rise of sports like lacrosse.

[wogdoggy]

Again, the problem isn't metal bats.

Rather, the problem is HIGH PERFORMANCE metal bats.

You can engineer a bat to behave the same as wood but be more durable.

If you ban metal bats, you are going to exclude a lot of kids from the game, and that IMO would be a very bad thing given the rise of sports like lacrosse.

O.K.lets dumb the bats down,,no problem but i would like to hear your metal bat lacrosse theory

[Twitch5]

Here's something a bit off-topic, but still related...

If anyone out there still reads books: the new John Grisham book "The Appeal" includes an interesting side-story about a metal bat lawsuit. It's not the main plot of the book, but fits with the story (can't say more or it would be a SPOILER). As with all Grisham books, it's a quick read and a good summer/beach book.

Twitch5

[4for4]

This article sums it up for me:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-metalbats083007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

There is no evidence that metal bats are more dangerous or injurious than wood bats. None. If someone would like to post specific information/data to the contrary, I'd like to see it. So far this appears to be nothing more than emotion and faulty logic.

[wogdoggy]

This article sums it up for me:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-metalbats083007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

There is no evidence that metal bats are more dangerous or injurious than wood bats. None. If someone would like to post specific information/data to the contrary, I'd like to see it. So far this appears to be nothing more than emotion and faulty logic.



want evidence swing a wood bat then swing a metal bat..then let us know,,and in your own unbiased common sense answer tell me which bat you would rather have your son pitching to.

[bigredmachine#1]

These high performance metal bats are for the fathers. Fathers of kids with marginal ability to hit. We all know the sweet spot on a metal bat is huge compared to a wood bat. Metal bats have trampoline effect, double wall metal bats (Anderson Tech-Zilla/DeMarina F2 and F3) amplify the trampoline effect. These are nothing more than cut down beer league softball bats.

The fathers puff their chests out when little Johnny Boy gets a hit with these killer bats that if it was a wood bat would have been a weak grounder to 2nd instead of a smoked linedrive to right center. Now daddy can high five all the other dads..."WOW! Did you see little Johnny Boys' line drive?? My Little Johhny is the next Albert Pujols/A-Rod/Big Poppie...."

Keep making the metal bats, just engineer them to perform exactly like a wood bat. The manufacturers can still give them new, wild looking graphics every year so Little Johnny and daddy will buy a new bat every season. That's basically what they do now. The construction of most bats do not change much from season to season just the paint scheme so Little Johnny get's all excited and convinces the proud pappa to fork over another $300 for a new bat.

Good hitters don't need these ridiculous over performing metal bats. Just dads of marginal players that should be playing soccer anyway.

[4for4]

want evidence swing a wood bat then swing a metal bat..then let us know,,and in your own unbiased common sense answer tell me which bat you would rather have your son pitching to.

I've done both.

This is an emotional argument lacking logic. Show me some real data that suggest there's a difference. That's a common sense approach.

[wogdoggy]

I've done both.

This is an emotional argument lacking logic. Show me some real data that suggest there's a difference. That's a common sense approach.

you want data? thats a gem...:applaud:

[jima]

TG/4for4: fellas, get your heads out of the sand, you guys clearly haven't been paying attention to what you see on the field. This is not brain surgery. If you were pitching to a Div 1 prospect, and interested in protecting yourself, and you had the choice of him using a wood or metal bat, which wood you choose? Anyone, who stands behind the dubious accident statistics obviously chooses not to deal with the issue. I agree that baseball is inherently dangerous and fear is part of the game...but, should metal alloy technology be used to increase the inherent risk? jima

[wogdoggy]

TG/4for4: fellas, get your heads out of the sand, you guys clearly haven't been paying attention to what you see on the field. This is not brain surgery. If you were pitching to a Div 1 prospect, and interested in protecting yourself, and you had the choice of him using a wood or metal bat, which wood you choose? Anyone, who stands behind the dubious accident statistics obviously chooses not to deal with the issue. I agree that baseball is inherently dangerous and fear is part of the game...but, should metal alloy technology be used to increase the inherent risk? jima

It really isnt rocket science to know these bats are MORE dangerous.

look at tennis raquet technology,look at the strides made there.

[wrstdude]

Maybe it could be the beginning of the personal accountability era, where we calculate the risks and take responsibility for our decisions.

Yeah right....that'll be the day. It's always someone else's fault.

[I]
Do you think the kid's father bought him son a wood bat? Or do you think he might have bought his son the best metal bat he could afford? What are the odds this question comes up in court?


Good point.

[wogdoggy]

Yeah right....that'll be the day. It's always someone else's fault.



Good point.

nobody's puttin the "BLAME" on anybody..you look at it as the blame game BUT lets look at it to try to make the game safer..whats the number 1 reason to keep these bats sooo hot? its money.believe me outlaw metal bats and louisville slugger will change to meet demand..

its not really a big deal to implement wood or composites.write it in the rules and dad will have no problem buying wood or composite if he wants to see his kid play ball.

[Jake Patterson]

Again, the problem isn't metal bats.

Rather, the problem is HIGH PERFORMANCE metal bats.

You can engineer a bat to behave the same as wood but be more durable.

If you ban metal bats, you are going to exclude a lot of kids from the game, and that IMO would be a very bad thing given the rise of sports like lacrosse.
I absolutely agree. The problem for the manufacturers then becomes how do they get a competative edge and sell more bats? Then the only time dads and moms will buy new bats is when junior or DD outgrow or get bored with durable bats. Going your route, which I absolutely agree with, will result in less bats sold, not more. The bat manufacturers are trying to avoid this with diversionary safety information.

[Jake Patterson]

This article sums it up for me:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-metalbats083007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

There is no evidence that metal bats are more dangerous or injurious than wood bats. None. If someone would like to post specific information/data to the contrary, I'd like to see it. So far this appears to be nothing more than emotion and faulty logic.

Tim you are way off on this. Read the Kettering reports and look at the data. If you are telling me I cannot hit a ball better with my metal fungo than I can with a standard wood bat you really need to examine your information base. The new high drop, double walled, high flex bats are fungos in disguise.

[ralanprod]

What I want to know is why they parents aren't suing the ball manufacturer as well?

Why not sue whoever taught the batter to hit as well? Obviously the instructor should have known how dangerous it was to the pitchers if the batter could hit the ball hard.

We can debate the metal/wood issue all day. What do we do when a pitcher gets hit by a ball off a wood bat?

I'll grant that that there are metal bats that clearly outperform wood - no doubt. Does that make them more dangerous? To some degree clearly.

However it's tough to say where the balance lies between playing a safe game, and one that doesn't resemble baseball at all. If we want safe, we can wrap the kids in foam and play with sponge balls. Safe, but not baseball.

[wogdoggy]

What I want to know is why they parents aren't suing the ball manufacturer as well?

Why not sue whoever taught the batter to hit as well? Obviously the instructor should have known how dangerous it was to the pitchers if the batter could hit the ball hard.

We can debate the metal/wood issue all day. What do we do when a pitcher gets hit by a ball off a wood bat?

I'll grant that that there are metal bats that clearly outperform wood - no doubt. Does that make them more dangerous? To some degree clearly.

However it's tough to say where the balance lies between playing a safe game, and one that doesn't resemble baseball at all. If we want safe, we can wrap the kids in foam and play with sponge balls. Safe, but not baseball.

This is a situation that doesnt have to be..If we can cut the injuries by outlawing metal slingshots why not? Who benefits the most by putting these bats on the field? It aint your kid or my kid..its the bat companies..ALL that has to happen is make LL put no metal bats into there rules and IT WILL happen..The corporations will follow the money..Again not the BLAME game but what can we do as parents to still be able to put our kids on a field without the ADDED danger these bats impose.Dont try the OVERPROTECTIVE parent crap arguement either,,this is just common sense.

[hawkiirock]

How thick and heavy are those shirts? I thought they look like pretty good protection but didn't know how bulky or constrictive they were
I also suit him up with an undershirt called torso-tection. It is not noticible. I bought it since one day we were playing catch and I was throwing to him and it bounced on the ground and hit him in his solar plex. Hecrumpled down in pain and he shyed away from the balls there after. After a few weeks, I ordered this undershirt to protect him. He got his confidence back a few weeks after he started to wear it . He doesnt need it now but I always had him suit up with it just in case something happens.

http://www.aluminumbats.com/ProductImages/apparel/easton/a164190.jpg


It reminds me of a super light kevlar bullet proof vest. It may just help this type of injury that was suffered by the 14 year old pitcher. What do you think?

[hawkiirock]

you keep advocating wood OR composite. Do you mean wood composite? If not than you are not familiar with how "hot" composite bats can be. Go swing a Miken Ultra II composite bat. It flat out destroys any metal softball bat
Our team uses TPX composite catalyst and it has a lot of pop as well. Composites are just as dangerous as metal batsnobody's puttin the "BLAME" on anybody..you look at it as the blame game BUT lets look at it to try to make the game safer..whats the number 1 reason to keep these bats sooo hot? its money.believe me outlaw metal bats and louisville slugger will change to meet demand..

its not really a big deal to implement wood or composites.write it in the rules and dad will have no problem buying wood or composite if he wants to see his kid play ball.

[Baseball gLove]

This is a situation that doesnt have to be..If we can cut the injuries by outlawing metal slingshots why not? Who benefits the most by putting these bats on the field? It aint your kid or my kid..its the bat companies..ALL that has to happen is make LL put no metal bats into there rules and IT WILL happen..The corporations will follow the money..Again not the BLAME game but what can we do as parents to still be able to put our kids on a field without the ADDED danger these bats impose.Dont try the OVERPROTECTIVE parent crap arguement either,,this is just common sense.

The composite bats are more dangerous than metal bats. Another problem with any bat are cheaters that modify bats to juice them up, be it corked wood bats, shaved metal bats or rolled composite bats. Been reading up on the maple bats?

[dmullen]

I think two things will come into question during this lawsuit. The first, the design of the bat. Basically, the bat could have been designed to more closely simulate wood, have a smaller sweet spot etc. but the designers wanted to maximize the force transferred to the ball so the ball would travel at a much higher velocity upon impact and thus travel farther and faster.

Next, the attorneys will try to show that league knew their were inherent risks using such high performance bats (didn't little have rules that prohibited the use of big barrelled bats in some age groups for this very reason) but chose to ignore them or thought the risks were acceptable.

It is a tragedy and one that bothers me to some extent - why not make the bats more like wooden bats? Why not thicken the side walls so the bat's response is not as live.

[wrstdude]

This is a situation that doesnt have to be..If we can cut the injuries by outlawing metal slingshots why not? Who benefits the most by putting these bats on the field? It aint your kid or my kid..its the bat companies..ALL that has to happen is make LL put no metal bats into there rules and IT WILL happen..The corporations will follow the money..Again not the BLAME game but what can we do as parents to still be able to put our kids on a field without the ADDED danger these bats impose.Dont try the OVERPROTECTIVE parent crap arguement either,,this is just common sense.

I'm all for wood bats-I really am.

The lawsuit, however, is ridiculous.

[digglahhh]

A few points here:

1. Metal bats are more dangerous than wood bats; that shouldn’t be an argument. And for those who want data to support it, what good is the data if most of what we see is the result of studies commissioned by bat manufacturers as a pro-active issues-management campaign. How long did tobacco companies insist cigarettes did not cause cancer?...

2. With that said, the argument that there is risk inherent in sport does have some merit. The baseline of risk can be set at playing the game under traditional conditions. Cost/benefit and risk assessment analysis of any sort of innovations will be something of an individual decision. What is a “substantial” increase in danger? What is an appropriate level of danger? These are open-ended questions. Of course, as one poster said, you could wrap the kids up in foam, it just wouldn’t be baseball. However, it’s kind of ironic to evoke the classic image of what “is baseball” in the course of arguing for use of bats made from something other than wood…

These types of arguments have been around for ages. The idea of competition/challenge/purity vs. safety is nothing new, neither is the issue economics vs. safety. One such safety/competition controversy involves whether volunteer rescue mountain climbers should be forced to take undue risk in order to attempt an epically dangerous climb to attempt to save somebody who, of their own volition, chose to attempt a death-defying climb. But, when you deal with children, the issues are less philosophical and more practical; err on the side of caution absent an extremely compelling reason not to. Outlawing high-performance metals isn’t tantamount to neutering the game, so any legit argument the other way would have to center on something also incredibly practical, economics perhaps.

3. The huge sweet spots increase the likelihood of injury; this would be true even if those bats didn’t result in faster exit speed. Increasing the likelihood that a ball can be hit as hard as possible leads to an increase in injury potential, period. It also has the ability to hide or reinforce poor mechanics, as the kid thinks everything is okay because he’s hitting the ball “well” consistently.

I’m willing to hear arguments for high performance metals; I just haven’t heard many good ones.

[4for4]

Tim you are way off on this. Read the Kettering reports and look at the data. If you are telling me I cannot hit a ball better with my metal fungo than I can with a standard wood bat you really need to examine your information base. The new high drop, double walled, high flex bats are fungos in disguise.

Joe, I don't think I'm way off on this issue. I've read the reports. They seem to suggest what I've said: There is no evidence that metal bats are more dangerous or injurious than wood bats.

All I can do is read and rely on data. What specifically are you relying on in this data to suggest that I'm way off and that LLI should be ashamed of itself?

The following is from Daniel A. Russell, Ph.D. Applied Physics of Kettering University:

My ultimate conclusion as a scientist, after investigating these questions, is that metal baseball bats currently legal for play under NCAA and NFHS regulations do not pose a safety risk that is significantly greater than the risk of playing baseball with wood bats. Injury statistics over the last 30 years indicate that baseball is one of the safest team sports played by high school and college players. Severe injuries resulting from pitchers being struck by batted balls, are tragic, but are extremely rare. The available scientific evidence suggests that banning metal bats will not necessarily make the game of baseball any safer.

Ref: http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/ban-safety.html

Another import thing to understand here is the passage of time on this issue. Russel places the following disclaimer in his previous work:

Disclaimer: While the results were not published in peer-reviewed research journals until 2000-2001, the data for the Crisco-Greenwald batting cage study was collected during 1997-1998. The bats used in this study were manufactured before the NCAA implemented its current performance limits which restrict the performance of an aluminum bat through (i) the "minus-3" Length-weight rule, (ii) the BESR test (ball exit speed ratio), and (iii) the lower limit on moment-of-inertia. Thus, the bats used in this study are not representative of aluminum bats allowed for use at high school and college levels under current NCAA rules. None of the 5 aluminum bats in this study would be legal today. The batted-ball speeds measured in the Crisco-Greenwald study are significantly higher than batted-ball speeds obainted with bats which currently pass the NCAA performance standards. The data from the Crisco-Greenwald study should NOT be used to argue against the use of aluminum bats because this data does not represent the status of bat performance under current NCAA rules. No bat which currently passes the NCAA performance standards will perform as high as the best metal bats in the Crisco-Greenwald study.

Ref: http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/alumwood.html

Some confusion seems to center around one of the central advantages of metal bats:

Metal bats don't break at the handle for inside pitches like wood bats do. An inside pitch that would jam a batter using a wood bat resulting in a broken-bat blooper for an out would likely be hit past the infield for a base hit by a player using a metal bat.

A metal bat is more forgiving for impacts outside of the "sweet spot" region on the barrel. Because of the barrel of a metal bat is hollow, there is a wider range of locations on the barrel of a metal bat where the batted-ball speed is close to the maximum value.

Ref: http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/alumwood.html
referring to previous reports.

IOW, the metal bats produce more hits along the entire lenght of the bat than wood. For example, its not uncommon to see several wood bats break on pitches off the handle at the mlb level. In college, the bats don't break and often times that contact results in a hit.

There doesn't seem to be any data to support the number or severity of injuries being greater for metal bats over wood bats.

[korp]

"Too expensive", how? COMPOSITE WOOD BATS will last you as long as almost any aluminum bat (retains its "pop"). Especially where I play, in MI. The constant cold/hot/cold/hot weather has a very large impact on the life of bats - we usually send 2-3 back a SEASON because of cracking. We now, also, have 3 Brett Bros composite bats - no cracks, no breaks, no returns.
Here's the other thing to consider:
- GOOD Youth Composite Wood Bat: $50
- GOOD Youth Aluminum Bat: $200

So how is wood "MORE expensive"?

I guess the only other "beneficial" thing I can see coming out of a switch to wood would be that our kids might actually become BETTER HITTERS, but no one probably cares about the ether. :dismay:
- I'll be waiting to see what kind of hitters are coming out of New York in 10 yrs...:think:


Yeah when I made the post I was talking about straight wood not composite. I'm from michigan too..... but for some people it depends on how long they keep their bat and how often they use it. A wood bat is still just a wood bat and eventually will break. I would assume the frequency would be greater at the younger level since a lot of kids will swing at bad pitches that result in getting fisted or hitting the ball off the end (potentially can be more expensive).

[TG Coach]

So how is wood "MORE expensive"?

Wait until you see what wood bats cost when all metal bats are replaced with wood. We can't use maple for youth sports. Maple bats shatter and are dangerous. A MLB player was injured by shards from a maple bat recently. Consider there's a shortage of quality ash to make wood bats. Now we can factor in supply and demand and watch the cost of wood bats skyrocket.

[TG Coach]

You dont need "STATS" to know these metal bats are weapons do you?

And wood bats aren't weapons? Whenever I hear of a pitcher getting drilled by a comebacker my first question is, "Would it have happened with wood?" Chances are it would.

[TG Coach]

Everyone has made a big deal regarding the speed of the ball (70-110 mph) coming off a metal bat in relation to commotio cordis. The leading cause/accident involving commotio cordis is falling off playground equipment. Are these kids hitting the ground at 70-110 mph? Of course not. The injury is a split second incident disregarding speed. A wood bat is just as likely to cause commotio cordis. It's just a matter of timing.

Accidents can be tragic. I have a couple of personal experiences with tragic, accidental death. Unfortunately stuff happens. Would it be too sarcastic to suggest banning kids from playing and bundling them in bubble wrap? Each parent has to decide where the safety line exists for their children. That's where the responsibility and liability lay.

[TG Coach]

Rather, the problem is HIGH PERFORMANCE metal bats.

What about high performance wood bats, like maple?

[TG Coach]

TG/4for4: fellas, get your heads out of the sand, you guys clearly haven't been paying attention to what you see on the field. This is not brain surgery. If you were pitching to a Div 1 prospect, and interested in protecting yourself, and you had the choice of him using a wood or metal bat, which wood you choose? Anyone, who stands behind the dubious accident statistics obviously chooses not to deal with the issue. I agree that baseball is inherently dangerous and fear is part of the game...but, should metal alloy technology be used to increase the inherent risk? jima

I've seen plenty of balls go through the box with wood bats that would have been just as dangerous. During college summer ball, one day at the beach I asked a friend what happened to his back (he had a rip mark across it). He said, "You know the ball JM hit through the box last night that was caught in center on one hop? It skimmed off my back (through a tee and a uni)."

What do you think would have happened if it caught him flush?

[TG Coach]

nobody's puttin the "BLAME" on anybody

Err, lawsuit? It looks to me like the defendants are being blamed.

[TG Coach]

I'm all for wood bats-I really am.

The lawsuit, however, is ridiculous.

Agreed. I'm only debating the validity of the claims relative to the lawsuit while setting aside emotional response.

[azmatsfan]

Although 14 now, I believe the pitcher was 12 when the accident occurred. If so, at what distance was he pitching? In LL I believe the 46' pitching distance is a bigger risk than the metal bats. We have kids in Majors that are over 6' tall and weigh 200 lbs. When those kids connect with any bat, a pitcher 40' away after a follow through has almost no chance to react. If anything I think it's time for LL to look at a bigger field for Majors.

[TG Coach]

Although 14 now, I believe the pitcher was 12 when the accident occurred. If so, at what distance was he pitching? In LL I believe the 46' pitching distance is a bigger risk than the metal bats. We have kids in Majors that are over 6' tall and weigh 200 lbs. When those kids connect with any bat, a pitcher 40' away after a follow through has almost no chance to react. If anything I think it's time for LL to look at a bigger field for Majors.

The event didn't happen in LL even though the family is suing LL as the face of youth baseball. It happened in PAL. PAL thinks 46 feet is too far. They pitch from 45 feet.

[digglahhh]

You dont need "STATS" to know these metal bats are weapons do you?

And wood bats aren't weapons? Whenever I hear of a pitcher getting drilled by a comebacker my first question is, "Would it have happened with wood?" Chances are it would.

Chances are it would; I say I'm closer to agreeing than disagreeing with this statement.

However, dismissing concerns by saying that wood bats are weapons to is kinda like me saying kids bringing knives to school is no big deal because you could just as easily stab somebody with a compass.

There's always an inherent potential for danger in sports; that's unavoidable. However, where the line of reasonable danger lies is always being negotiated. Essentially, this is how many in-game rules are determined in harder contact sports.

Will making the sport less dangerous egregiously harm the game?

Will permitting the more dangerous innovation/iteration of the rule result in a practical benefit that outweighs the increased risk?

Those are the key questions considered in these issues. It's quite reasonable that people may draw opposite conclusions. There's no way any resolutions to these questions will not be arbitrary and subjective.

Further, sometimes helping people feel safer, actually increases that person's safety. The most likely player to get hurt is one who is scared, right?

[TG Coach]

Further, sometimes helping people feel safer, actually increases that person's safety. The most likely player to get hurt is one who is scared, right?

What about the player with the false sense of security who maybe should be a bit more vigilant? I wouldn't start the parade "Pitcher's are now safe" just because metal bats are eliminated.

[digglahhh]

Further, sometimes helping people feel safer, actually increases that person's safety. The most likely player to get hurt is one who is scared, right?

What about the player with the false sense of security who maybe should be a bit more vigilant? I wouldn't start the parade "Pitcher's are now safe" just because metal bats are eliminated.

No. I wouldn't either.

But it seems, from your other posts in the thread, that your position is that the fear-mongering belies the extremely low rate of injury in the first place. That is to say that the level of fear is unjustified. So, wouldn't a "false sense of security" in that case, be not so false at all, and in fact more in line with what you feel is the appropriate risk in the first place? Simply, wouldn't that shift get the fear level CLOSER to what it "should" be, in your opinion?

I know you're also engaging in something of a "picking a side and arguing it for the sake of discussion" mode (which is totally cool), but isn't it somewhat contradictory to accuse the LL community of "fear mongering" and then note that even with improved safety measures, the kids shouldn't exactly feel safe? It seems like you're willing to play whichever side helps your argument at the time.

[bigredmachine#1]

Use composite wood and bamboo bats. This addresses everything. They're not as hot as metal bats. They're more durable than ash and maple. They don't break and shatter like maple bats. They're cost effective. Or if you must have metal then make thick single walled metal bats that behave like the aforementioned bats.

It's really a very easy solution but the money being made on these ridiculous cut down, beer league, softball bats that make daddy proud and helps Little Johnny hit like an all-star gets in the way. All those Little Johnny's and their proud parents should be on a soccer field.

[Jake Patterson]

Let's take these one at a time....
I don't think I'm way off on this issue. I've read the reports. They seem to suggest what I've said: There is no evidence that metal bats are more dangerous or injurious than wood bats.

All I can do is read and rely on data. What specifically are you relying on in this data to suggest that I'm way off and that LLI should be ashamed of itself?
Let's look at this a different way...
I think everyone agrees that metal bats have a larger sweet spot, are more flexible and durable, are easier to swing with their higher drops and have a higher trampoline effect with their double walls, etc. Putting the ball exit speed aside for now, I think we can agree that metal bats perform better and produce more hits. This by its very nature increases the risk.

Also IF metal bats do not perform better and do not increase risk, then why manufacturing standards and performance restrictions such as BESR and BPF? Why regulate something that needs no regulations?
The following is from Daniel A. Russell, Ph.D. Applied Physics of Kettering University....I believe Dr, Russell is part of the problem and is now selling his opinions to the highest bidder. You really need to review his research and more importantly the tone of his research from day one.

IOW, the metal bats produce more hits along the entire lenght of the bat than wood. Then this is, in and of itself, an admission of increased risk.

[coach scotty]

What I want to know is why they parents aren't suing the ball manufacturer as well?

Good question. Would have an Easton Incrediball have done the same damage? Maybe we should switch to them. Nope wait that would change the integrity of the game, kinda like metal bats do. Nope baseball purists won't allow that, safety can only be used in an argument for the purity of the game not against it.

[Chris O'Leary]

Two nights in a row now, I have been watching a Cardinals game and seen a bat break and the head of the bat go flying toward the pitcher and miss him by inches.

Also, one of my most vivid memories from attending Cardinals games as a child was watching the head of a broken bat flying toward me and landing a couple of seats next to me.

I still think that a properly engineered metal bat is the best option.

Everybody seems to forget that golf clubs, and in particular drivers, have been engineered to limit their performance (e.g. ball exit speed) for 30 or more years.

[handyman11]

Liek most people , I don't agree with the lawsuit , as much as we all feel for the family ....but I've played with wood bats my whole baseball life , and then had the opportunity to play in an aluminum bat tourney down south a few years back ... don't know what the exit speed was , from a numbers point of view , but from the infield spot I was playing , it was significant to me, compared to wood ...besides possible exit speed differences , seemed like everyone had additional bat speed , as the bats we used were balanced alot different than the wood we were used to ....

The worst were the titanium bats from the old softball days ..were legal for a few weeks before a few pitchers got hurt bad ....alot of folks wasted $500 for a few weeks of tape measure HR's ...

[LAball]

I helmet.

http://www.aluminumbats.com/ProductImages/apparel/easton/a164190.jpg



My 9 year old wears one. The very center section has tougher padding. The other areas are like half as thick as catcher pads if I had to guess. He seems to throw and bat fine, as well as running and fielding. It pretty warm due to the padding, which is alright for night games, but he doesnt wear it in the day games. I thinking of cutting it sleeveless and a big hole in the back for ventalation.

[LAball]

Does the cause justify the means.

If you dont want high performing metal bats, you can scream all you want, but if they sell it, people will buy it. Bat companies doesnt want to just shut down. IT TAKES A LAWSUITE. Just like cigerettes, its the only thing the little people have against business giants.

[new2thesport]

How thick and heavy are those shirts? I thought they look like pretty good protection but didn't know how bulky or constrictive they were

It is really light and not bulky at all. The shirt material is like the moisture wicking material that stretches(Like those undershirts that keep you cool). According to my son, it is comfortable and it doesnt hinder his movement. The pad that protects the heart area is made of a different material than the rest of the pads. It is my belief that this material absorbs and disperses the energy to the entire area instead of keeping it centered in the original point. By doing so, it takes a potentially dangerous strike and makes it safer.

Personally, I havent worn it. But if I did, as a martial artist, I wouldnt be afraid of any strike that would hit me in that area. I am confident that I would not be injured. This is just my opinion.

[wogdoggy]

you keep advocating wood OR composite. Do you mean wood composite? If not than you are not familiar with how "hot" composite bats can be. Go swing a Miken Ultra II composite bat. It flat out destroys any metal softball bat
Our team uses TPX composite catalyst and it has a lot of pop as well. Composites are just as dangerous as metal bats



no hawk meant a woody composite..sorry.:atthepc

[wogdoggy]

nobody's puttin the "BLAME" on anybody

Err, lawsuit? It looks to me like the defendants are being blamed.

was talkin about my own opinion

[virg]

You could modify the bat. Or you could move the pitcher back or even expand the diamond. The 90' diamond and 60' distance resulted from years of trial/error. The LL etc diamonds were convenient when the kid game expanded. None of it is sacred.

60' diamond/ 46' mound was/are the dimensions in men's fastpitch and slow-pitch. Those games were losing popularity simultaneous with growing interest in LL. The fields were already there and ready, only to be taken over. Trial-error adjustment per conditions never happened.

[wogdoggy]

You could modify the bat. Or you could move the pitcher back or even expand the diamond. The 90' diamond and 60' distance resulted from years of trial/error. The LL etc diamonds were convenient when the kid game expanded. None of it is sacred.

60' diamond/ 46' mound was/are the dimensions in men's fastpitch and slow-pitch. Those games were losing popularity simultaneous with growing interest in LL. The fields were already there and ready, only to be taken over. Trial-error adjustment per conditions never happened.



sure everyone wants the durability of a metal bat including me the dad that will have to buy them but cant we just dumb them down a lil bit...

I look at my bjorn borg tennis raquet from the 1970's and just think about how MOST games have changed because of the equipment.golf most notably..
club heads as light as feathers and as big as bread boxes..technology has changed sports and has made baseball a more dangerous one to play,only because of the bats.

[virg]

The MLB diamond is a design based on intensive experience, for commercial reasons, proven generally workable for adult play. Is the LL setup a design by any definition? The LL thang is a result of the unconscious leading the innocent, and pure convenience.

There seems to be a problem. It must be identified to be solved. Identify the problem before further complicating it.

[Jake Patterson]

IT TAKES A LAWSUITE. Just like cigarettes, its the only thing the little people have against business giants.
Good example

[hawkiirock]

thanks. I am considering getting this. Funny thing is my son saw it last year in a magazine and wanted it. THen he brought it up again this year and wanted itIt is really light and not bulky at all. The shirt material is like the moisture wicking material that stretches(Like those undershirts that keep you cool). According to my son, it is comfortable and it doesnt hinder his movement. The pad that protects the heart area is made of a different material than the rest of the pads. It is my belief that this material absorbs and disperses the energy to the entire area instead of keeping it centered in the original point. By doing so, it takes a potentially dangerous strike and makes it safer.

Personally, I havent worn it. But if I did, as a martial artist, I wouldnt be afraid of any strike that would hit me in that area. I am confident that I would not be injured. This is just my opinion.

[hawkiirock]

i figured that but wanted to clarify for the readers that aren't familiar with straight composite batsno hawk meant a woody composite..sorry.:atthepc

[hawkiirock]

PItching distance is 50' for USSSA 11 and 12 year olds

[TG Coach]

It seems like you're willing to play whichever side helps your argument at the time.

I'm just being rational and level headed. I haven't taken sides in the wood - metal debate. The only side I've taken is the lawsuit is unjustified.

[TG Coach]

I would really enjoy seeing your source, if you have one, of the fact that the leading cause of commotio cordis is falls from playground equipment. You speak as an authority on the bat issue. Do you have sources for your "facts."?

I found the stats when the kid was injured a couple of years ago. I'll see if I can find it again later.

[Drill]

Two nights in a row now, I have been watching a Cardinals game and seen a bat break and the head of the bat go flying toward the pitcher and miss him by inches.

Also, one of my most vivid memories from attending Cardinals games as a child was watching the head of a broken bat flying toward me and landing a couple of seats next to me.

I still think that a properly engineered metal bat is the best option.

Everybody seems to forget that golf clubs, and in particular drivers, have been engineered to limit their performance (e.g. ball exit speed) for 30 or more years.

did you get the bat?


drill

[ralanprod]

Steven M Yabek, MD in his paper on Commotio Cordis...

"Softer-than-normal baseballs reduced the risk of ventricular fibrillation to 8% with very soft baseballs, 22% with moderately soft baseballs, and 29% with the least soft baseballs."

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/TOPIC3019.HTM

Obviously it is the dangerous hard baseballs that are the root of the problem - they are nearly 4 times as deadly. We should all petition our local boards to switch to the softer balls as soon as possible. How can we as parents not take this easy step to ensure greater safety for our children?

Personally, I like wood bats and would rather they were the norm - but if we're going to argue this topic, we have to realize that there is no logical reason why we should address the safety of one of the pieces of equipment and ignore another that is obviously a contributing factor.

(and no, I don't really want to switch to safety balls - just trying to make a point :twocents:)

[LAball]

Steven M Yabek, MD in his paper on Commotio Cordis...

"Softer-than-normal baseballs reduced the risk of ventricular fibrillation to 8% with very soft baseballs, 22% with moderately soft baseballs, and 29% with the least soft baseballs."

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/TOPIC3019.HTM

Obviously it is the dangerous hard baseballs that are the root of the problem - they are nearly 4 times as deadly. We should all petition our local boards to switch to the softer balls as soon as possible. How can we as parents not take this easy step to ensure greater safety for our children?

Personally, I like wood bats and would rather they were the norm - but if we're going to argue this topic, we have to realize that there is no logical reason why we should address the safety of one of the pieces of equipment and ignore another that is obviously a contributing factor.

(and no, I don't really want to switch to safety balls - just trying to make a point :twocents:)

But the baseball bats are makeing a LOT of money at the expense of safety. For a bat to make more money it has to hit better, be more dangerous. If different balls where going for $5, $20, $100, $250 and preforms better relative to the price, then I could see your argument.

[Jake Patterson]

Using the balls as part of this discussion is interesting in that leagues would not allow a team to use a harder higher performing ball, why a higher performing bat?

Hmmm

[TG Coach]

We should all petition our local boards to switch to the softer balls as soon as possible.

If you think there's an issue with arm injuries now, get youth pitchers throwing RIF (reduction in force) balls. Fielders will also get hit by more bad hop grounders. RIF balls don't have a true bounce when hit solidly. They go oblong and take funny hops.

I have a novel idea. Teach the kids how to play the game properly. Don't provide entitlement to unskilled kids to play with a certain age group just because they're that age.

Or we could make them all play in dresses. Or armor like knights wear. If the game is really unsafe, they could play video baseball instead.

[TG Coach]

Is the LL setup a design by any definition? The LL thang is a result of the unconscious leading the innocent, and pure convenience.

The dimensions came about by trial and error back in the 30's based on what size field kids 9-12 could handle.

[TG Coach]

On the other hand, kid's bats are devoid of scientific regulations.

Not true. Youth bats have a BPF rating. Since my son isn't in kiddie ball anymore I can't remember the max number.

[TG Coach]

Light blow to chest can be fatal. I'm still looking for the playground stats.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_22_160/ai_81764384

[TG Coach]

From following article: Of the 182 cases of ventricular fibrillation tracked by Maron since 1995, 47 percent occurred during practice or competition in organized sports. Thirty-nine percent of the children suffered fatal chest blows despite the presence of protective equipment. Their average age was 15 years. The remaining 53 percent occurred during recreational sports or normal activities around the home.

http://www.la12.org/news/news-0050.html

[Riverbase]

I wouldn't even consider the chest protectors, they don't work. Numerous tests have proven it. The impact required to stop the heart is minimal, hence most occurences from playground falls, and the only thing the protectors are good for is reducing impact pain and spreading the compression out. Preventing the stopping of the heart is 99% doubtful. Read here for more.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/peds.2005-1270v1


As far as using softer balls go, It's debatable. Read here.

http://www.ipsm.org/publications/softball_injuries/head.asp

[Chris O'Leary]

The dimensions came about by trial and error back in the 30's based on what size field kids 9-12 could handle.

FWIW, I think the fact that LL lets 9 year-olds play with 12 year-olds, and ignores the concept of biological age, is a much bigger safety issue.

[ralanprod]

Switch to softer balls instead of deadening the bats in order to do what?--protect batmaker's profits?

A local league switched its majors div. to a slightly softer ball two years ago. They hated it. It was a unanimous failure. It changed the entire game in the infield. It's a physical impossibility to make a softer ball that plays the same as a harder ball.

But what the heck, why inconvenience the batmakers when you can change the ball.


I think you are missing my point. If we are going to start saying safety is the paramount issue in how equipment is designed, you can't just pick and choose what equipment it should apply to.

Again, I don't have a problem with wood bats at all, and I could care less about batmaker's profits. What I am bothered by is the logic of this court case that somehow if a wood bat was being used that this accident wouldn't have happened. It's the same thing as saying if they were using a RIF ball that it wouldn't have happened.

If we set the precedent that the equipment and the league is to blame for things like this accident where will it stop? You can bet it won't be with the bats. What will be the next lawsuit target? I could run down a list of equipment, practices and policies that the lawyers will go for next but I'm sure we all know plenty of "unsafe" things about baseball.

I don't have a problem with safe, I have a problem with lawyers (who have just as much if not more financial motivation than the batmakers) making the decision on what is safe.

[ralanprod]

FWIW, I think the fact that LL lets 9 year-olds play with 12 year-olds, and ignores the concept of biological age, is a much bigger safety issue.

Earlier this year my son was an emergency farm up from Pony-Mustang to a Pony-Bronco game. My son is a league age 9 (turns 10 in October) and the Bronco players are league age 11-12. I couldn't believe the difference in size. My son is on the tall side of average I would say, and he barely came up to mid chest on his teammates. He's hoping for a big growth spurt this year...

[ralanprod]

Ralanprod,
You were replying to my quote about deadening non-wood the bats, and somehow got on the subject of wood bats.

If, as of tomorrow, kids had to play with non-wood bats that had exactly the same performance characteristics as wood bats--same swing-weight, same sweet spot, same lack of trampoline effect--would you be in favor of this?


I don't have a problem with any bat per se - I just don't subscribe to the belief that it would have made a difference in this case. There are too many variables for me to say, "it's the bat's fault". I have no doubt that the lawyer in this case couldn't care less about the safety of the players.

[Riverbase]

per mlb.com

Bat Performance Factor (BPF) and League Regulations

An effort by some of governing bodies in Baseball and Softball (NCAA, NHSF, USSSA, NSA) to regulate the performance of a bat has lead to the establishment of a method of measuring how a ball jumps off of a bat compared to how a ball rebounds off of a wall at a controlled speed.

BPF (Bat Performance Factor) is simply the increase in the liveliness of a ball hitting a bat compared to throwing a ball against a solid wall (i.e., 20% faster rebound = a BPF of 1.20).

Beginning with the 2009 season, non-wood bats used in divisions of play Little League (Majors) and below must be printed with a BPF (bat performance factor) rating of 1.15 or less.

Beginning with the 1998 playing season, USSSA and NSA league play must use a bat bearing a permanent marking indicating that the bat does not exceed a 1.20 BPF rating.

The NCAA/NFHS have dictated a "3 Prong" set of rules for bats to be legal for 2000 and beyond.

The bats can have a diameter no larger than 2 5/8"
The bats can be no lighter than 3 ounces less than the length (i.e. 32 in/29 oz)
The bats can have an exit speed no higher than 97 MPH off the barrel of the bat. The bats must have a "BESR" logo on the barrel of the bat, designating that the bat meets the Ball Exit Speed Requirement
In July of 2003, the ASA changed their performance test method and standard. They refer to their new test as a "high speed test." This method determines the outgoing speed of a ball after an impact at 110 miles per hour. Past tests have had impact speeds of 60 mph. The new standard calls for an outgoing ball speed of no greater than 98 mph. All bats need to pass this test to be used in ASA play from 1/1/2004 and beyond.

Bats manufactured after passing this new test will have a new "ASA 2004" logo on the barrel.
Those that pass the standard will be placed on the ASA's website on an ASA 2004 legal bat list.
Bats on this ASA list will be legal for play whether they have the 2004 logo or not.
ASA umpires will have a copy of the ASA list and will use that list to determine if a bat is legal for play or not.

[TG Coach]

FWIW, I think the fact that LL lets 9 year-olds play with 12 year-olds, and ignores the concept of biological age, is a much bigger safety issue.

You're tying now back to then to create a scenario that doesn't exist in 99% of LL's. When I played LL was essentially 10-12. There wasn't majors, minors, coach pitch, tee ball, etc. A kid tried out for LL. If he was good enough he made LL. A 9 could try out for LL and be counted as a 10 if he was good enough to make it. Teams were comprised of five players from the three ages. 11's and 12's did most of the playing. When I was 9 I think I played and got an at-bat in half the games.

Kids who were 8 and 9 had Farms which was under the LL umbrella should the program decide to have it. Many didn't. LL'ers got full uniforms. Farms got a tee shirt. LL'er practiced every day they didn't have a game. Farms rarely had practice. You have to remember this was an era when kids played baseball all day, all summer.

It's interesting you have such great concern for 9's playing with 12's. It's another example of adults interjecting too much in kid's sports. In pickup games we did it in every sport. If you were 9 and couldn't hang with 12's on the field, you went home. Very few went home. And we did all this dangerous play without adult supervision. I don't recollect anyone getting hurt so badly they couldn't get home on their own power.

Now in LL it's typically 11's and 12's with the best 10's. 9's don't play with the older kids unless it's a rural program with a numbers issue. I believe until this year 12's were allowed to be in minors with 9's.

Another thing that I don't understand is your jumping on LL. Their track record is better than other programs. With all the issues with jacked up bats, LL is one of the programs that doesn't allow big barrels. LL is the program with pitch counts.

[TG Coach]

Earlier this year my son was an emergency farm up from Pony-Mustang to a Pony-Bronco game. My son is a league age 9 (turns 10 in October) and the Bronco players are league age 11-12. I couldn't believe the difference in size. My son is on the tall side of average I would say, and he barely came up to mid chest on his teammates. He's hoping for a big growth spurt this year...

In 14U my son was a prepubescent 5'4" playing with kids who were 6'2" and shaving. He was a boy playing with physically young men. If you can play, you can play.

[coach scotty]

On the other hand, kid's bats are devoid of scientific regulations.

Not true. Youth bats have a BPF rating. Since my son isn't in kiddie ball anymore I can't remember the max number.


As of 2009 the max will be 1.15

[MarkL]

get rid of metal!

[Jake Patterson]

As of 2009 the max will be 1.15
This rating may be flawed also as it does not consider bat handle flexability and only addresses exit speed off a stationary bat surface... I could be wrong.

[digglahhh]

I don't have a problem with any bat per se - I just don't subscribe to the belief that it would have made a difference in this case. There are too many variables for me to say, "it's the bat's fault". I have no doubt that the lawyer in this case couldn't care less about the safety of the players.

I understand your point, but at some level Occam's Razor has to take over.

Of all the variables, which are the most likely? Which are the most practical to change?

There are virtually infinite variables that affect any policy decision, and an accompanying number of potential policy shifts to address them. At some point you have to make an educated guess based on predicted efficacy and ease of implementation.

There's nothing wrong with reminding everybody about the complexity of the issue, but if the existence of gray area shouldn't preclude the formation of an informed opinion.

[digglahhh]

It seems like you're willing to play whichever side helps your argument at the time.

I'm just being rational and level headed. I haven't taken sides in the wood - metal debate. The only side I've taken is the lawsuit is unjustified.

You have both chastised those who decry the present state of the game as unsafe by calling them "fear-mongers."

At the same time, you have gone out of your way to mention that removing high-performance metals would not necessarily make the game safe.

That's what I meant by playing both sides.

The crux of the matter is a balance, and the arrival at a consensus of what represents reasonable, or appropriate levels of risk to youth baseball.

Yes, safe vs. unsafe is a false dichotomy as it pertains to metal vs. wood. And, yes, bat composition isn't the only possible way to address what some feel are needlessly high safety risks. But, from a policy-making standpoint, LL regulations regarding bat composition seem to be a logical place to start the discussion.

[ralanprod]

I understand your point, but at some level Occam's Razor has to take over.

Of all the variables, which are the most likely? Which are the most practical to change?

There are virtually infinite variables that affect any policy decision, and an accompanying number of potential policy shifts to address them. At some point you have to make an educated guess based on predicted efficacy and ease of implementation.

There's nothing wrong with reminding everybody about the complexity of the issue, but if the existence of gray area shouldn't preclude the formation of an informed opinion.

Fair enough. At least we are talking about logic rather than emotion, makes for a better discussion.

I personally feel getting rid of "hot" bats for the sake of returning the game to its roots is a great idea. In a practical sense, if LL made that decision I think you would see an exodus of players to other organizations. (Assuming they did not adopt the same change) While LL could tout itself as "safer", you know that will lose out to the possibility of Little Johnny hitting those home runs in another league.

It becomes a question of LL doing what is best for the players, or what is best for itself. The two aren't always the same, and from what I have seen in the past LL doesn't always put the players first.

[wogdoggy]

You have both chastised those who decry the present state of the game as unsafe by calling them "fear-mongers."

At the same time, you have gone out of your way to mention that removing high-performance metals would not necessarily make the game safe.

That's what I meant by playing both sides.

The crux of the matter is a balance, and the arrival at a consensus of what represents reasonable, or appropriate levels of risk to youth baseball.

Yes, safe vs. unsafe is a false dichotomy as it pertains to metal vs. wood. And, yes, bat composition isn't the only possible way to address what some feel are needlessly high safety risks. But, from a policy-making standpoint, LL regulations regarding bat composition seem to be a logical place to start the discussion.



Yes, safe vs. unsafe is a false dichotomy as it pertains to metal vs. wood. And, yes, bat composition isn't the only possible way to address what some feel are needlessly high safety risks. But, from a policy-making standpoint, LL regulations regarding bat composition seem to be a logical place to start the discussion.


Its all about money and corporate profits.What a cash cow these metal bats have become .ALL it takes is LL to change the rules and the corporations will follow the money.

its like comparing a pellet gun to a 45 caliber..if your kids grabbed one out of your drawer which one would you prefer?,,maybe a bad example but hopefully drives home the point..if they have an accident with the pellet gun they probably will still be around to talk about it..why arm our kids with 45 calibers? so the bat makers make more?

[hawkiirock]

it is even worse here. They go by grade for city league. So you can have 13 year olds playing against the younger kids. FWIW, I think the fact that LL lets 9 year-olds play with 12 year-olds, and ignores the concept of biological age, is a much bigger safety issue.

[hawkiirock]

This is something that many of you might not be aware of as well and could be a problem


Some bats have been made to fall under the guidelines while NIW but break in and get hotter


The miken freak is one example of this for softball. It came out at 98 mph and approved by ASA BUT it broke in and got hotter and hotter and was a 100 + MPH after a few hundred swings


That can present a problem b/c the bat co's are making so much money right now. They can be quite corrupt. Kinda like a politician

[jima]

I just want to thank Digglah for bringing some common sense to the discussion. I continue to fall on the side of someone who believes that the new bats are too hot...you have the whole bat industry working to make bats with bigger sweet spots and more exit speed...every year...pls read the ads...and its my belief that those bats are used at the expense of safety. I think LL and specifically KEENER is a joke...he is probably and ex lobbyist getting kickback from his pro-metal, fictional website...a group of us have tried to reach the guy...he won't return e-mails or phone calls....anyone from LL listening and willing to explain why he wants parents to join his website? Jake, do you have any explanation? jima

[wogdoggy]

I just want to thank Digglah for bringing some common sense to the discussion. I continue to fall on the side of someone who believes that the new bats are too hot...you have the whole bat industry working to make bats with bigger sweet spots and more exit speed...every year...pls read the ads...and its my belief that those bats are used at the expense of safety. I think LL and specifically KEENER is a joke...he is probably and ex lobbyist getting kickback from his pro-metal, fictional website...a group of us have tried to reach the guy...he won't return e-mails or phone calls....anyone from LL listening and willing to explain why he wants parents to join his website? Jake, do you have any explanation? jima

good post jima...:clapping