Can Umpire Call Play He Didn't See?

[DerbyDay03]

Please evaluate this situation for me. How would you call it?

Girls JV softball game with a single umpire.

- Runners on 2nd and 3rd.
- Batter hits a sinking line drive to the pitcher who makes a shoestring catch, stumbling towards first base.
- Runner on 3rd tags and takes off for home.
- Pitcher turns and throws to home.
- Catcher misses the ball and it rolls to the backstop.
- Runner from 3rd crosses the plate.
- 2 steps behind the runner from 3rd is the runner from 2nd, who also crosses the plate.
- Opposing coach tells the umpire that the runner from 2nd didn’t tag up.
- Umpires says "I was watching the catch and then the play at the plate. I didn't see what happened at 2nd so I can't call it."
- Coach asks the umpire to explain how the runner from 2nd could have been that close to the runner from 3rd unless she left early.
- Umpire says "I can't explain it, but I didn't see her leave early so I can't call it."

Was that the correct call or can the umpire use his judgment and assume the runner left early based on her proximity to the runner from 3rd?

Thanks!

[TG Coach]

He made the right call. He can't assume anything.

[Baseball gLove]

That was the correct call. I loved it when my son hit a 2 run triple, then gets called out at 3rd base, because the opposing coach suggested that my son with almost no stride was out of the box. I think he would have needed to have performed the splits to have had one foot out of the box.

[KCGHOST]

In truth, an umpire can do whatever he wants. You would like to think an ump wouldn't call what he didn't see.

How do you hit a "sinking liner to the pitcher"???

[CoachHenry]

In truth, an umpire can do whatever he wants. You would like to think an ump wouldn't call what he didn't see.

How do you hit a "sinking liner to the pitcher"???

MASSIVE top spin.

[DerekD]

I wonder what the umpired looked at once he had the first out. I'm guessing the ump should've snapped his head over to third to check the tag since that's the more important of the two runners. I can't imagine that the ump didn't see the runner from 2nd already approaching 3rd at that point.

On the other hand, if the catcher catches the ball, neither of those runs score anyway.

[soberdennis]

Could the second base umpire have ruled on whether the runner had left early?

[Utility07]

There was no second base umpire. Thats the problem. If you want that call made, you need to pay for it.

[jbooth]

Please evaluate this situation for me. How would you call it?

Girls JV softball game with a single umpire.

- Runners on 2nd and 3rd.
- Batter hits a sinking line drive to the pitcher who makes a shoestring catch, stumbling towards first base.
- Runner on 3rd tags and takes off for home.
- Pitcher turns and throws to home.
- Catcher misses the ball and it rolls to the backstop.
- Runner from 3rd crosses the plate.
- 2 steps behind the runner from 3rd is the runner from 2nd, who also crosses the plate.
- Opposing coach tells the umpire that the runner from 2nd didn’t tag up.
- Umpires says "I was watching the catch and then the play at the plate. I didn't see what happened at 2nd so I can't call it."
- Coach asks the umpire to explain how the runner from 2nd could have been that close to the runner from 3rd unless she left early.
- Umpire says "I can't explain it, but I didn't see her leave early so I can't call it."

Was that the correct call or can the umpire use his judgment and assume the runner left early based on her proximity to the runner from 3rd?

Thanks!

"You can't call what you didn't see" is a mantra pounded into umpire's heads at umpire school.

[azmatsfan]

We had an eerily similar play in our game a couple nights ago. Our first baseman made a catch while coliding with the second baseman, so the runner on third came home. One of my assistants told our fielder to touch third base. The umpire called the runner out. The other coach told me later that the ump told him he didn't see if the runner had tagged up, but used his baseball sense to judge that he hadn't tagged up. I was watching my fielders collision so I don't what the right call was, but I didn't complain. (BTW, we only have a home plate ump.)

[Jesse]

Also, knowing where the ball is and watching the play takes precedence over making sure the runner touched all the bases or (I would assume from the below) tagged up properly.


From 9.05, General Instructions To Umpires:
Keep your eye everlastingly on the ball while it is in play. It is more vital to know just where a fly ball fell, or a thrown ball finished up, than whether or not a runner missed a base.

[DerbyDay03]

There was no second base umpire. Thats the problem. If you want that call made, you need to pay for it.

Well, we do pay for it - the second ump didn't show up for the game and it was too late to call in a sub.

[DerbyDay03]

re: I wonder what the umpired looked at once he had the first out.

After the catch was made, his attention was on the play at the plate. He apparently had no idea that the runner on 2nd was even part of the play until she crossed the plate.

re: On the other hand, if the catcher catches the ball, neither of those runs score anyway.

Not sure why you say that. The catcher would not only have to catch the ball, but also tag *both* runners for neither run to score. There was no force.

[DerbyDay03]

How do you hit a "sinking liner to the pitcher"???

Weak hit - any weaker and it would have been a decent bunt. <g>

It barely made it as far as the pitcher's mound but on the first base side, so the left handed pitcher had to run to her left and then reach down and out to catch it. With her back to plate and stumbling towards the foul line, the (aggressive) runner on third tagged and took off for home. By the time the pitcher regained her balance enough to turn and throw, she had to rush it and made a poor throw.

[korp]

He made the right call. He can't assume anything.
I agree. Thats the problem with one umpire there is always at least 1-2 calls that will get blown ... can't be in two places at once as bad as it is.

[StraightGrain11]

I wonder what the umpired looked at once he had the first out. I'm guessing the ump should've snapped his head over to third to check the tag since that's the more important of the two runners. I can't imagine that the ump didn't see the runner from 2nd already approaching 3rd at that point.

On the other hand, if the catcher catches the ball, neither of those runs score anyway.

I'm not sure if you ever umpired or not, but from that statement, I'm guessing you haven't. It is very easy for an umpire to sometimes miss things that are so "blatant" to others (the crowd, coaches, players, etc.) I once missed a kid's swing because the catcher stuck his glove right in my face as he stood up to catch the pitch - I'm sure you can only imagine how many "glasses" calls I heard the rest of the day, for that.

The umpire does not have the vantage point of the crowd - he is always WITHIN the play, and must be constantly aware of his next move to position himself in the best location possible for the impending play. With a possible play at home, it would be very easy to not see the runner not tagging at 2nd. And in this situation, he would not be "snapping his head around", he would be moving his BODY into position (most likely up the 1Bline) to make the call - more or less, turning himself away from any play at 2B.



Jim, what did you mean by this:


"You can't call what you didn't see" is a mantra pounded into umpire's heads at umpire school.
Are you saying this is CORRECTLY "pounded" into their heads? Or a falacy taught for the sake of "saving" the need for a judgement call?
(from your use of the word "mantra", I'm guessing the latter...but just making sure:))

[DerekD]

I'm not sure if you ever umpired or not, but from that statement, I'm guessing you haven't. It is very easy for an umpire to sometimes miss things that are so "blatant" to others (the crowd, coaches, players, etc.) I once missed a kid's swing because the catcher stuck his glove right in my face as he stood up to catch the pitch - I'm sure you can only imagine how many "glasses" calls I heard the rest of the day, for that.

The umpire does not have the vantage point of the crowd - he is always WITHIN the play, and must be constantly aware of his next move to position himself in the best location possible for the impending play. With a possible play at home, it would be very easy to not see the runner not tagging at 2nd. And in this situation, he would not be "snapping his head around", he would be moving his BODY into position (most likely up the 1Bline) to make the call - more or less, turning himself away from any play at 2B.



I see no reason why the umpire couldn't look towards 3B while getting into position for the play at the plate. I agree that the umpire will probably never see the tag by R2 because of the need to look at R3. I am just wondering that if R3 tagged properly and R2 crossed the plate right after R3, R2 would've been approaching 3B while R3 was tagging up. It's possible that the umpire would've seen this, although technically, he never actually SAW the tag up by R2.

[jbooth]

Jim, what did you mean by this:

Are you saying this is CORRECTLY "pounded" into their heads? Or a falacy taught for the sake of "saving" the need for a judgement call?
(from your use of the word "mantra", I'm guessing the latter...but just making sure:))

I mean that you don't guess, or assume anything. If you didn't see it then you don't make up something.

If you didn't see a runner miss a base while rounding it, you can't call him out just because everybody on the defense says they saw it.

If you don't see a runner fail to tag up, you can't call him out.

On a diving catch in the outfield you can only call what you see. Say a fielder gloves the ball and then rolls over and his body gets between you and the ball. The offense claims that the ball popped out and he re-gloved it. You can't assume the ball popped out if you didn't see it.

[TG Coach]

While the norm is the umpire has a better view because he's close to the play, sometimes they can be too close to have a good angle on the play. It happens more often in kiddie ball where the unusual happens.

Back when I was coaching 9/10's the incorrect call was made to allow the tying run to score in the championship game. That team won the game in extra innings.

With the bases loaded and two outs the ball is hit back to the pitcher. All he had to do was throw the hitter out at first. The (one) umpire turned to make the call at first. The problem is the pitcher decided to throw home. He underhanded the ball home. He arched an underhanded moon shot to the catcher.

The correct way to make this call when it's close is watch the feet/base and listen for the ball hitting the glove. The pitcher threw a feather above the catcher's head. The umpire is right on top of the play. How does he see the foot and the catch at the same time. He can't hear the catch. He made the wrong call. From back in the stands with a wider angle it was easy to see it was the wrong call. But up close it was a difficult call.

A mother from the losing team made sure he knew it was a bad call from the time the game was over all the way across the parking lot and until he packed up his trunk and drove off.