Best SS in MLB

[Texas Rangers]

I asked this question a couple years ago, but I will ask it again: Who do you all consider the best SS in the MLB currently?

Contributing factors:
Offensive numbers.
Defensive numbers.
Fundamentals.
Key plays and/or hits.
Team leadership.
Also, consider the fact that which SS will take you to the playoffs.

-Try to exclude your personal feelings or the players off-field role.
-Think of the players whole career.

I will throw in the top 7 in the poll and a write-in option.

A-Rod is not an option.

[JMC Bomber]

Rafael Furcal

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6404

[OleMissCub]

Hanley Ramirez by a mile.

[Texas Rangers]

Rafael Furcal

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6404

Furcal is having a good season, but i would not place him as the best CURRENT SS in the MLB.. Tejada (looking behind the steroids talk) was my vote. Fielding % is way up there. Ramirez has it all but i don't know if he could lead the Marlins to the playoffs.

[Zagi-CRO]

Han-Ram, apsolutely!!
Then Furcal and Tejada.

Stats till May/13th



MVB
10.03 Rafael Furcal Dodgers 0.366
9.08 Hanley Ramirez Marlins 0.325
7.88 Miguel Tejada Astros 0.338
7.63 Jose Reyes Mets 0.264
7.26 Ryan Theriot Cubs 0.331
6.91 Cristian Guzman Nationals 0.298
6.77 Yunel Escobar Braves 0.314
6.64 Stephen Drew Diamon 0.269
6.62 Michael Young Rangers 0.286
6.46 Jeff Keppinger Reds 0.324

[NYMets523]

Also, consider the fact that which SS will take you to the playoffs.

Sorry, but that's a stupid requirement. This isn't football or basketball where 1 player can take their team to the playoffs all on their own. It's also May.


To answer the question, Hanley Ramirez by far. Reyes has not been hitting well, Jeter is over-the-hill, Rollins is grossly overrated (the Phillies played better without him than with him), Furcal is having an excellent year but is on the DL and not as good as Hanley, Tejada is good but not the player he used to be.

[John Shoemaker]

IMO the best shortstop in baseball today plays third base for the Yankees - A-Rod

[BlueBlood]

Furcal's fielding is only about an error below the league average right now. His OPS+ is a whopping 168. No other choice for me.

[cardsfanatic]

Sorry, but that's a stupid requirement. This isn't football or basketball where 1 player can take their team to the playoffs all on their own. It's also May.


Ummm, ok? In basketball, perhaps. In Football? I'd wager football is even more of a team effort than baseball. When a batter goes to the plate it's just him. His teammates can't help him out at all. In football, with rotations and packages, 45-50 different players touch the field. If the line doesn't block the QB doesn't do crap. Which then it's like a stack of dominos. The QB can't do anything, the HB can't do anything, the WR's can't do anything. So much in football relies on the rest of the guys doing their job. One player on a football team isn't going to take anyone to the playoffs. Period.

Sorry about the tangent but it just boggled my mind when I read that.

Anyway, for several years I would have answered this question as Derek Jeter but I think Hanley Ramirez has planted himself firmly in this spot. What I do find funny here is that all those years where I said Jeter, people would sheep their way into the discussion "lolerz but he sucks at defense!" yet, here Hanley Ramirez sits pretty much like a Derek Jeter in his prime and everyone fawns over him. Because Han-Ram isn't exactly a good fielder either and Derek Jeter has several better offensive seasons on the books than Han-Ram. I guess being Yankee captain buys you some hate. :)

[Captain Cold Nose]

Ummm, ok? In basketball, perhaps. In Football? I'd wager football is even more of a team effort than baseball. When a batter goes to the plate it's just him. His teammates can't help him out at all. In football, with rotations and packages, 45-50 different players touch the field. If the line doesn't block the QB doesn't do crap. Which then it's like a stack of dominos. The QB can't do anything, the HB can't do anything, the WR's can't do anything. So much in football relies on the rest of the guys doing their job. One player on a football team isn't going to take anyone to the playoffs. Period.

Sorry about the tangent but it just boggled my mind when I read that.

Anyway, for several years I would have answered this question as Derek Jeter but I think Hanley Ramirez has planted himself firmly in this spot. What I do find funny here is that all those years where I said Jeter, people would sheep their way into the discussion "lolerz but he sucks at defense!" yet, here Hanley Ramirez sits pretty much like a Derek Jeter in his prime and everyone fawns over him. Because Han-Ram isn't exactly a good fielder either and Derek Jeter has several better offensive seasons on the books than Han-Ram. I guess being Yankee captain buys you some hate. :)

You must have missed that Flintstones episode where Fred went to old Princetone to learn accounting.

"You did it, Fred! A new record,"
"Hooray for me."

Ramirez probably at this time.

[NYMets523]

Ummm, ok? In basketball, perhaps. In Football? I'd wager football is even more of a team effort than baseball. When a batter goes to the plate it's just him. His teammates can't help him out at all. In football, with rotations and packages, 45-50 different players touch the field. If the line doesn't block the QB doesn't do crap. Which then it's like a stack of dominos. The QB can't do anything, the HB can't do anything, the WR's can't do anything. So much in football relies on the rest of the guys doing their job. One player on a football team isn't going to take anyone to the playoffs. Period.

Sorry about the tangent but it just boggled my mind when I read that.

I was referring to soccer.

[YankeeFanUK]

Ronaldo nigh on single handedly gave MAN UTD the premiership again this year ...one man can make a huge difference

[dl4060]

Anyway, for several years I would have answered this question as Derek Jeter but I think Hanley Ramirez has planted himself firmly in this spot. What I do find funny here is that all those years where I said Jeter, people would sheep their way into the discussion "lolerz but he sucks at defense!" yet, here Hanley Ramirez sits pretty much like a Derek Jeter in his prime and everyone fawns over him. Because Han-Ram isn't exactly a good fielder either and Derek Jeter has several better offensive seasons on the books than Han-Ram. I guess being Yankee captain buys you some hate. :)


Most of the discussions I saw which referenced defense were strictly in regards to his defense, not whether or not he was the best player in the league. Not saying there were not people who said Jeter could not be the best because of his glove, I just saw less of that. Lots of discussions of Jeter tend to digress into whether or not he is overrated, and whether or not he is overrated, or whether or not he is a good defensive player. I always considered Jeter to be a below average SS, but with Nomar getting hurt and having to move from the position and Arod going to third I saw Jeter as the best of the lot. It is perfectly logical to have criticized Jeter's defense and still vote for Hanley now. In 2006 I thought Jeter was the best SS in baseball, defense and all. Any argument I would have made about his defense would have been something separate. If you hit the way Jeter did at his best you don't need to be Ozzie Smith, though that would be nice.

Jeter certainly has a larger body of work than Hanley does, but for the last year and a half Hanley has clearly been better.

It will be interesting to see how the Hanley/Beckett trade is viewed in several years.

Hanley reminds me more of Nomar before his injuries than Jeter. A bit more of a free swinger, more power, and a better overall hitter. This year his plate discipline has improved quite a bit, which Nomar's never really did. Hanley's 2007 season would have fit right in with Nomar circa 98-00. Hopefully he will have better luck staying on the field.

Both Jeter and Nomar peaked relatively early, I will be curious to see how Hanley ages.

Do players who stay at short tend to peak early? I've always thought there might be something to that. Ripken did, although he came back at age 30 to have his best year. I've always thought it would make sense, with all the wear and tear. I have never looked into it, or read a study of it.

[Old Sweater]

For the past 20 years it has been li'll "O" hands down.

The best pair of hands to ever play the SS position. IMO<<<<


Off to a great start with the Giants this year and "Omar the Great" should have the hits record for SS's at seasons end.

[holyroman]

For the past 20 years it has been li'll "O" hands down.

The best pair of hands to ever play the SS position. IMO<<<<


Off to a great start with the Giants this year and "Omar the Great" should have the hits record for SS's at seasons end.

If we were talking about the best pair of hands (defensive skills), Adam Everett would be in the discussion but there is this little thing about having to hit the ball he never learned.

[Blackout]

anyone who doesn't think its hanley is hilarious

[holyroman]

anyone who doesn't think its hanley is hilarious

Well I voted for Tejada, he is step for step with Handley this season offensively, has played better defensively, and is a team leader. Both of them are having comparable great seasons so far and the fact that Tejada has done it well for longer gives him the edge to me currently. Obviously starting from scratch I will take the younger guy, but today I take Tejada he has a fire in his belly to win and is proving to be a vocal team leader something the Astros needed.

[Westlake]

Well I voted for Tejada, he is step for step with Handley this season offensively, has played better defensively, and is a team leader. Both of them are having comparable great seasons so far and the fact that Tejada has done it well for longer gives him the edge to me currently. Obviously starting from scratch I will take the younger guy, but today I take Tejada he has a fire in his belly to win and is proving to be a vocal team leader something the Astros needed.

No, he really hasn't been step for step with Hanley this season. Hanley has a .970 OPS while Tejada has a .906. Big difference. Baserunning is Hanley by a country mile. About defense, do you really watch enough Marlins games to make that assertion? I'd call them pretty equal from what i've seen, which isn't much when it comes to Hanley (FWIW, FRAA has Hanley as being 3 runs better than Tejada at this point).

EqA

Tejada: .303
Ramirez: .330

OPS+

Tejada: 137
Ramirez: 156

And that's if you ONLY go by the first month and a half of the season, which is weird to me. If you go by how they have played over the last couple seasons and how they will probably perform this season, it's easily Hanley.

"but today I take Tejada he has a fire in his belly to win and is proving to be a vocal team leader something the Astros needed"

And because he's an Astro.

Though I did forget about these stats...

FIBR (Fire in belly rating)

Tejada: 34.2
Ramirez: -124

DLOV (Decibel level of voice)

Tejada: 120
Ramirez: Mute

[Baseball Guru]

I think factoring in speed, power and average, its Ramirez.. I dont hink taking a team to the playoffs should be a requirement... By the way, how many thought that the Fish would be in 1st in mid May? He's largely responsible for that;)

[Windy City Fan]

IMO the best shortstop in baseball today plays third base for the Yankees - A-Rod

You beat me to it.

[holyroman]

:applaud:

No, he really hasn't been step for step with Hanley this season. Hanley has a .970 OPS while Tejada has a .906. Big difference. Baserunning is Hanley by a country mile. About defense, do you really watch enough Marlins games to make that assertion? I'd call them pretty equal from what i've seen, which isn't much when it comes to Hanley (FWIW, FRAA has Hanley as being 3 runs better than Tejada at this point).

{You can quote all the obscure stat geek numbers you want. I'll say this in what I see, Tejada has 4 more doubles, 1 more triple, and 4 less homers, and he has scored 1 run less than Hanley. Tejada has 8 more RBI's, the same number of total bases,(87), 6 more hits, and 1 less run scored, 9 less steals, 10 less K's, and a 0.18 higher average. Second page stats or not they have done similar things offensively.}

EqA

Tejada: .303
Ramirez: .330

OPS+

Tejada: 137
Ramirez: 156

And that's if you ONLY go by the first month and a half of the season, which is weird to me. If you go by how they have played over the last couple seasons and how they will probably perform this season, it's easily Hanley.

{how do you quantify how Hanley has done over the last couple of seasons, he only has one, also how do you predict how they "will probably" perform this season? Is there an equation for that or just a magic eight ball.}

"but today I take Tejada he has a fire in his belly to win and is proving to be a vocal team leader something the Astros needed"

And because he's an Astro.

Though I did forget about these stats...

FIBR (Fire in belly rating)

Tejada: 34.2
Ramirez: -124

DLOV (Decibel level of voice)

Tejada: 120
Ramirez: Mute

{very funny, really, but you are dismissing leadership skills (what I was trying to define). Some people lead quietly and let their bat speak, Tejada is trying to do that and encourage his teammates. }

[Captain Cold Nose]

IMO the best shortstop in baseball today plays third base for the Yankees - A-Rod

That's like saying Floyd Mayweather is the best lightweight boxer in the world today. Not playing the position in four years kind of takes you out of the equation.

[KCGHOST]

Looking at 2007-2008 to avoid goofy small sample size issues it is Hanley Ramirez by a good margin to me. If this guy played for a northern end of the east coast instead of the southern tip the Eastern Shore Programming Network would be running daily features and updates on him.

[cardsfanatic]

I always considered Jeter to be a below average SS


Ummm, what?



It is perfectly logical to have criticized Jeter's defense and still vote for Hanley now.


Not really. When people didn't consider Jeter the best SS in the league because of his defense... how can you justify slobbering over Hanley Ramirez who isn't as good offensively as Jeter was at his peak and a horrid defender himself? You can't have it both ways. If Jeter is severely penalized for his defense then Hanley Ramirez should be too. If people care one iota about being consistent... which most baseball fans aren't.



Jeter certainly has a larger body of work than Hanley does, but for the last year and a half Hanley has clearly been better.


If you're comparing their 2007/08 seasons only, sure. Jeter in his earlier days had far better seasons (even 2006 at an advanced age) than Ramirez has had. The way I see it the media is unfairly biased to Jeter because he plays for the Yankees and Han-Ram plays for the Marlins. I feel the fans are equally as biased towards Hanley. They have no problem whatsoever embracing Hanley with his putrid defense as the best SS in the league -- yet, they tried for years and years to discredit Jeter solely based on his defense. Either defense is so important it totally negates an All-Time great bat at SS or it doesn't. You can't have it one way for one player you like and turn around and have a different set of rules for another player you don't like. Well... I guess you _can_ but people like me won't take you very seriously.



Hanley reminds me more of Nomar before his injuries than Jeter. A bit more of a free swinger, more power, and a better overall hitter.


A better overall hitter? I'm not seeining that. At all.



Both Jeter and Nomar peaked relatively early, I will be curious to see how Hanley ages.


I guess we're working from a different set of stats or something. Jeter had a pretty prolongued peak and even last year at age 33 was solid gold with the bat.

[cardsfanatic]

I think factoring in speed, power and average, its Ramirez.. I dont hink taking a team to the playoffs should be a requirement... By the way, how many thought that the Fish would be in 1st in mid May? He's largely responsible for that;)

I'm sure Josh Willingham & Dan Uggla have just as much to do with it. If you want to talk underrated how about Uggla, eh? He's been every bit as good with the bat this year as Hanley from a middle-infield position where offense is even more barren than SS.

[dl4060]

Ummm, what?


I meant to say DEFENSIVE shortstop. My error for not including that. I also said that I considered Jeter the best overall SS in 2006 and 1999.



Not really. When people didn't consider Jeter the best SS in the league because of his defense...

IF people said that. I personally never did. My point was that it is certainly logical to criticize Jeter for not being a great defensive player and still be high on Hanley. Criticizing Jeter's DEFENSE was not a criticism of his overall play, at least in my case. What bugged me was the ESPN perception that he was a great defensivie SS, when he is not. That has very little to do with how I view him as a player overall. I never said his defense got in the way of him being the best SS in the league.




how can you justify slobbering over Hanley Ramirez who isn't as good offensively as Jeter was at his peak and a horrid defender himself?

Not as good offensively? I would agree that in 1999 Jeter was better than Hanley last year, but not by much. Hanley's OPS+ was 145 last year which is very close to what Jeter did in 1999. I don't think there is a huge difference. I will reiterate that I never said Jeter was not a great player, just not a great defender. I criticize both players equally for their defensive shortcomings. I also clearly stated in my first post that Jeter was the best SS after Arod left and Nomar got hurt. Did you miss that?

In the last year and a half Hanley has played just as well as Jeter ever has. I would take Jeter in 99' but it is hardly a walkover. I can see arguments that Hanley was better last year than Jeter at his best. The only season Jeter has ever had which was at Hanley's 2007 level was 99'. If Hanley continues at his current rate this year that will give him two seasons on that level. If he has one more next year it will be pretty hard to argue that he is not above Jeter's level offensively.





You can't have it both ways. If Jeter is severely penalized for his defense then Hanley Ramirez should be too. If people care one iota about being consistent... which most baseball fans aren't.

I never asked to have it both ways. I merely said it was perfectly logical to criticize Derek Jeter's defense and think Hanley is a great player. Which it is. Criticizing DJ's gove work does not imply that he is not a great player. Nothing in my above post should have indicated that, it only implies that he was not a great defensive player. I said nothing about how that pertained to his overall ranking. In fact, as I have said several times, I wrote above that I considered him the best shortstop in baseball for a time, defense and all. If I were to say that DJ's defense prevented him from this pedestal, but did not dock Hanley for the same things that would be hypocritical. I have not stated anywhere that such a course of action is acceptable.





If you're comparing their 2007/08 seasons only, sure. Jeter in his earlier days had far better seasons (even 2006 at an advanced age) than Ramirez has had.

FAR better seasons? That is simply not true. The only season Jeter had which was aguably better than Hanley last year was 1999.


G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+
158 627 134 219 37 9 24 102 19 8 91 116 .349 .438 .552 153


The above is Jeter's line from 1999.

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+
154 639 125 212 48 6 29 81 51 14 52 95 .332 .386 .562 145

I don't see how anyone could think the first line is FAR better than the second. Better, yes, but far better? Hanley played in a more difficult offensive environment, the eight point OPS+ difference shows that Jeter still did outperform him, but I would not look at one season as far better than another.

If Jeter has had another season that was as good as Hanley's 2007 I do not see it. I guess we must be looking at a different set of stats. 2006 was close, but I would take Hanley in 2007. Hanley is more of a power hitter so far than Jeter ever was.

[QUOTE=cardsfanatic;1190018]

They have no problem whatsoever embracing Hanley with his putrid defense as the best SS in the league -- yet, they tried for years and years to discredit Jeter solely based on his defense. Either defense is so important it totally negates an All-Time great bat at SS or it doesn't. You can't have it one way for one player you like and turn around and have a different set of rules for another player you don't like. Well... I guess you _can_ but people like me won't take you very seriously.


I agree with the premise that players should be judged equally. However, as I have said several times most of the criticism I have heard about Jeter's defense was limited to that aspect of his game. You said it was illogical to criticize Jeter but fawn over Hanley. That is not accurate, what would be illogical is to say "Jeter cannot be the best in baseball because of his defense" and give Hanley a pass. You included this phrase in your second post, not your first. Had you included in the first post something along the lines of "people who said Jeter could not be the best because of his defense are now fawning over Hanley" that would have fixed the problem. Saying that they cannot criticize Jeter's glove and still fawn over Hanley's bat is not accurate. Your second post cleared this up, but your first post was vague with that. People can criticize DJ's glove work and still think he is a great player, they are two separate arguments. I might argue on and on in 2005 about how bad Jeter's defense was, but if you asked me which SS in baseball I would pick it would have been DJ in a heartbeat. It is foolish to state that DJ cannot be the best because of his glove but Hanley can despite his. But it is NOT foolish to say that DJ sucks with the leather, they are two different arguments. To say that Jeter is not good in the field does not imply that such a shortcoming precludes him from being the best in the game, unless explicitly stated.





A better overall hitter? I'm not seeining that. At all.



I do. As I said before the only season where Jeter has been better was 1999. Hanley has more power, and seems to be getting better and better. Jeter never showed that kind of pop. In 1999 he was close, but since then he has been more of a high average hitter. If Hanley can string together several seasons of slg .550 and ba .320-.330 then I don't see how he could not be seen as a better hitter. Given that he did that last year at age 23, he should get better. If last year was a fluke year for Hanley, then I will agree with you. If Hanley can produce such numbers year in year out then he must be considered superior with the bat in his hands. He is doing a great job so far this year.




I guess we're working from a different set of stats or something. Jeter had a pretty prolongued peak and even last year at age 33 was solid gold with the bat.

I see Jeter as having really only had a one year peak. He had one of the best years a shortstop has ever had in 1999, but has not been anything like that any other year. He has stayed at the same level for a while, but in 1999 I thought he would have several more years like that, which he did not. He has certainly still played at a hall of fame level, he just has not approached those heights again. He has not had an OPS+ within 20 points of his 1999 season, or a slugging within 70. I guess it would be more accurate to say that that season was an aberration, not a peak.

To reiterate, one can criticize Derek Jeter's defense, yet fawn over Hanley, but still be logical. That was my argument. What one cannot do, is say that it matters to DJ but not to Hanley. That is a different argument. To be critical of DJ's defense does not necessarily imply that it prevents him from being the best in the league. If you ask me about DJ's defense, you will get a not so great review. If you ask me about Hanley's offense, you will get something much better. Simply asking those two questions is not enough to accurately gauge my feelings on the two players. My criticism of Jeter's glove work does not imply that it prevented him from being the best in baseball.

Who specifically has stated this? Is there anyone out there who is making the argument that defense prevented Jeter from being the best but not Hanley? The only argument I can see for defense taking Jeter down below the best(after Arod and Nomar left) would have been if, say, Tejada and DJ were even with the bat that Tejada's glove put him over the top. I am not making that argument, I don't know if it is true or not.

Being a below average SS with the glove should not prevent anyone from being the best, as long as their bat makes up for it.

Bill James has a long article on Jeter's defense in one of his books this spring. He comes the the conclusion that DJ is nothing special with the leather.

[Westlake]

{You can quote all the obscure stat geek numbers you want. I'll say this in what I see, Tejada has 4 more doubles, 1 more triple, and 4 less homers, and he has scored 1 run less than Hanley. Tejada has 8 more RBI's, the same number of total bases,(87), 6 more hits, and 1 less run scored, 9 less steals, 10 less K's, and a 0.18 higher average. Second page stats or not they have done similar things offensively.}

They're not obscure, actually. They're stats that A LOT of people know. They're just obscure to people who are too lazy or to stuck on stats that don't reveal near as much.

If you want non "obscure" stats that ACTUALLY mean something when put in context, how about getting on base? Hanley has had only 5 more plate appearances than Tejada, and has been on base 8 more times, and then when he is on base he has stolen 11 more bases (basically turning those singles into doubles). He has been caught 4 times in 17 tries, while Tejada has been caught 3 times in 5 tries, which hurts his offensive value.

Btw, K's and batting average have little to do with actual production. Runs scored and RBI has tons to do with the offense around you, so how do you use that compare two players in different batting slots on different teams?

{how do you quantify how Hanley has done over the last couple of seasons, he only has one, also how do you predict how they "will probably" perform this season? Is there an equation for that or just a magic eight ball.}

He has 2 full seasons under his belt, not one. In 2006, they're basically equal after baserunning. In 2007, Ramirez was miles better. Now that Miguel Tejada is in a park that helps him tremendously (if you don't believe me, look at the splits), he's doing better, but still not as good as Ramirez, and the gap will probably widen as the season goes along, as Ramirez is in the prime of his career and Tejada has regressed every season since 2004.

{very funny, reall, but you are dismissing leadership skills (what I was trying to define). Some people lead quietly and let their bat speak, Tejada is trying to do that and encourage his teammates. }

I'm not dismissing them, i'm saying you don't know what kind of leadership Tejada or Ramirez have. And even then, you really think Tejada saying "Hey man you can do it!" helps that much? These guys are major league players, one person yelling encouragement slogans at them during a game probably doesn't do much, IMO.

In closing, there is a reason Ramirez has 25 votes and Tejada has 3.

[Texas Rangers]

You beat me to it.

Thats why he plays 3B and not SS.

[Texas Rangers]

:applaud:


{very funny, really, but you are dismissing leadership skills (what I was trying to define). Some people lead quietly and let their bat speak, Tejada is trying to do that and encourage his teammates. }

Tejeda has helped the Astros get to where they are today. He really does help raise the team morale.

[willshad]

I go with Tejada..he has been a top hitter for almost a decade...people are jumping the gun a bit with this Ramirez guy. Lets not compare guys who have played a couple of seasons with future hall of famers still in their primes. That would be like me saying David Wright is better than A-Rod. Well actually that would be more legit because at least Wright has played several seasons. Remember people were saying Joey Mauer was a future all time great after a couple seasons? Now they look stupid because its apparent he is more like the next Paul Lo Duca than the next Johnny bench. Id probably go with jeter, but he is having an off year, and Tejada is having a great one.

[holyroman]

{You can quote all the obscure stat geek numbers you want. I'll say this in what I see, Tejada has 4 more doubles, 1 more triple, and 4 less homers, and he has scored 1 run less than Hanley. Tejada has 8 more RBI's, the same number of total bases,(87), 6 more hits, and 1 less run scored, 9 less steals, 10 less K's, and a 0.18 higher average. Second page stats or not they have done similar things offensively.}

They're not obscure, actually. They're stats that A LOT of people know. They're just obscure to people who are too lazy or to stuck on stats that don't reveal near as much.

If you want non "obscure" stats that ACTUALLY mean something when put in context, how about getting on base? Hanley has had only 5 more plate appearances than Tejada, and has been on base 8 more times, and then when he is on base he has stolen 11 more bases (basically turning those singles into doubles). He has been caught 4 times in 17 tries, while Tejada has been caught 3 times in 5 tries, which hurts his offensive value.

^these numbers are really close dude they are pretty much even. By the way, there is no reason to make an out on the basepaths trying to steal too often with Berkman, Lee, and Pence behind you.

Btw, K's and batting average have little to do with actual production. Runs scored and RBI has tons to do with the offense around you, so how do you use that compare two players in different batting slots on different teams?

^ I keep hearing this but this is garbage. K's have something to do with production. They mean you failed to be productive in any way in that at bat. you didn't move a runner over, drive one in, or get yourself on base.
And last time I checked you have to do something productive and helpful to your team to get an RBI like a hit with runner's in scoring position.

{how do you quantify how Hanley has done over the last couple of seasons, he only has one, also how do you predict how they "will probably" perform this season? Is there an equation for that or just a magic eight ball.}

He has 2 full seasons under his belt, not one. In 2006, they're basically equal after baserunning. In 2007, Ramirez was miles better. Now that Miguel Tejada is in a park that helps him tremendously (if you don't believe me, look at the splits), he's doing better, but still not as good as Ramirez, and the gap will probably widen as the season goes along, as Ramirez is in the prime of his career and Tejada has regressed every season since 2004.

The OP asked who is doing it right now and Tejada is not regressing this season.

{very funny, reall, but you are dismissing leadership skills (what I was trying to define). Some people lead quietly and let their bat speak, Tejada is trying to do that and encourage his teammates. }

I'm not dismissing them, i'm saying you don't know what kind of leadership Tejada or Ramirez have. And even then, you really think Tejada saying "Hey man you can do it!" helps that much? These guys are major league players, one person yelling encouragement slogans at them during a game probably doesn't do much, IMO.

In closing, there is a reason Ramirez has 25 votes and Tejada has 3.

I just said I was picking Tejada, I realize a lot of people will pick Hanley, for one thing Tejada is being overshadowed by Berkman. I also said that among shortstops Tejada has done pretty much the same things as Hanley this year. And I feel like he is doing more to help his team win right now(and that sent you off into some kind of case that he hasn't?) It's all good man, but RIGHT NOW I like Tejada. You like Hanley I get it.

[Texas Rangers]

I go with Tejada..he has been a top hitter for almost a decade...people are jumping the gun a bit with this Ramirez guy. Lets not compare guys who have played a couple of seasons with future hall of famers still in their primes. That would be like me saying David Wright is better than A-Rod. Well actually that would be more legit because at least Wright has played several seasons. Remember people were saying Joey Mauer was a future all time great after a couple seasons? Now they look stupid because its apparent he is more like the next Paul Lo Duca than the next Johnny bench. Id probably go with jeter, but he is having an off year, and Tejada is having a great one.

Hanley is a little overrated right now. I think Tejeda and Jeter are better shortstops right now. I'm not just considering this seasons numbers. I'm considering their careers as a whole.

[digglahhh]

{You can quote all the obscure stat geek numbers you want. I'll say this in what I see, Tejada has 4 more doubles, 1 more triple, and 4 less homers, and he has scored 1 run less than Hanley. Tejada has 8 more RBI's, the same number of total bases,(87), 6 more hits, and 1 less run scored, 9 less steals, 10 less K's, and a 0.18 higher average. Second page stats or not they have done similar things offensively.}

They're not obscure, actually. They're stats that A LOT of people know. They're just obscure to people who are too lazy or to stuck on stats that don't reveal near as much.

If you want non "obscure" stats that ACTUALLY mean something when put in context, how about getting on base? Hanley has had only 5 more plate appearances than Tejada, and has been on base 8 more times, and then when he is on base he has stolen 11 more bases (basically turning those singles into doubles). He has been caught 4 times in 17 tries, while Tejada has been caught 3 times in 5 tries, which hurts his offensive value.

Btw, K's and batting average have little to do with actual production. Runs scored and RBI has tons to do with the offense around you, so how do you use that compare two players in different batting slots on different teams?

{how do you quantify how Hanley has done over the last couple of seasons, he only has one, also how do you predict how they "will probably" perform this season? Is there an equation for that or just a magic eight ball.}

He has 2 full seasons under his belt, not one. In 2006, they're basically equal after baserunning. In 2007, Ramirez was miles better. Now that Miguel Tejada is in a park that helps him tremendously (if you don't believe me, look at the splits), he's doing better, but still not as good as Ramirez, and the gap will probably widen as the season goes along, as Ramirez is in the prime of his career and Tejada has regressed every season since 2004.

{very funny, reall, but you are dismissing leadership skills (what I was trying to define). Some people lead quietly and let their bat speak, Tejada is trying to do that and encourage his teammates. }

I'm not dismissing them, i'm saying you don't know what kind of leadership Tejada or Ramirez have. And even then, you really think Tejada saying "Hey man you can do it!" helps that much? These guys are major league players, one person yelling encouragement slogans at them during a game probably doesn't do much, IMO.

In closing, there is a reason Ramirez has 25 votes and Tejada has 3.

Let 'em know Westlake.

Nothing screams leadership skills a guy with pretty credible PED accusations, who is untruthful to management about his own age, and has the charisma to walk out in the middle of interviews with the media...

Regardless, you think the RBI differential might have something to do with the fact that Hanley spent the first thirty games of the season in the lead-off spot?...

[Imgran]

Furcal's fielding is only about an error below the league average right now. His OPS+ is a whopping 168. No other choice for me.

Not to mention that Furcal's fielding problems are laregely caused by his extremely rangy, aggressive play at short and are more "the price you pay" than "the problem you overcome."

I voted for Rollins. Better defense than Hanley, solid speed, power and average in his own right, and he emerged as a clear emotional leader of his team into the bargain, which Hanley either has not done or has not had a chance to do with the Marlins.

[Old Sweater]

If we were talking about the best pair of hands (defensive skills), Adam Everett would be in the discussion but there is this little thing about having to hit the ball he never learned.


Everett has more then a bat problem now.


Adam Everett's arm strength is still a big question mark for the Twins. The shortstop made a weak throw from the hole in Friday night's game that didn't even reach the pitcher's mound before its first hop, although it was a play that would not have been made anyway. Gardenhire said that while the strength is still lacking, the shortstop is catching the ball, turning double plays and making the plays up the middle. "Hopefully, as he continues to do his arm exercises, he'll get stronger and we'll see better arm strength," Gardenhire said. "Now it's what it is. All we ask him is to make the plays and he's doing that."...

Besides I was talking out of the last 20 years. No one else in MLB history has beat kids out of a starting SS positon for 20 straight years like Omar Vizquel.

[Westlake]

I just said I was picking Tejada, I realize a lot of people will pick Hanley, for one thing Tejada is being overshadowed by Berkman. I also said that among shortstops Tejada has done pretty much the same things as Hanley this year. And I feel like he is doing more to help his team win right now(and that sent you off into some kind of case that he hasn't?) It's all good man, but RIGHT NOW I like Tejada. You like Hanley I get it.

Right now you like Tejada because isn't not an insane comment and he's an Astro. That's basically it.

[Old Sweater]

Adam Everett must have altitude sickness here. Just misjudged a can of corn pop up that he didn't even get his glove on.

[Great One]

I think some people are overlooking Jimmy Rollins in all of this. He is the current NL MVP and he spent time on the DL this year so you won't see much in the stats this year. Ramirez isn't quite up there yet as the best, but one day he will be. Just not now.

[Old Sweater]

I think some people are overlooking Jimmy Rollins in all of this. He is the current NL MVP and he spent time on the DL this year so you won't see much in the stats this year. Ramirez isn't quite up there yet as the best, but one day he will be. Just not now.

No one overlooked him last year. He has Tulowitzki's gold glove, Hanley's silver slugger and Hollidays MVP as far as I'm concerned.

[NYMets523]

He has Tulowitzki's gold glove, Hanley's silver slugger and Hollidays MVP as far as I'm concerned.
Got that right. And he can thank the Mets for choking which got him the MVP. Chase Utley had more Win Shares than Rollins and he played in about 30 fewer games.

[Francoeurstein]

Hanley Ramirez hands down. He is a 5 tool player and he is the future of the Florida Marlins.

[Westlake]

I think some people are overlooking Jimmy Rollins in all of this. He is the current NL MVP and he spent time on the DL this year so you won't see much in the stats this year. Ramirez isn't quite up there yet as the best, but one day he will be. Just not now.

No, its now. You're just refusing to accept it.

[Great One]

No, its now. You're just refusing to accept it.

Not at all. I just think that Ramirez needs to establish himself more than Rollins has.

[Imgran]

Right now you like Tejada because isn't not an insane comment and he's an Astro. That's basically it.

What's wrong with that? That's why Jeter stays somehow relevant to discussions of top shortstops. Because he does one fairly important thing well enough(OBP) to put him somewhere in the same universe with actual top shortstops and he's a Yankee. Dassit.

[holyroman]

From the Houston Chronicle,


Turns out, the Astros have two MVP candidates. Miguel Tejada's batting average hasn't been below .331 since April 20. He enters today's game hitting .344. He's fifth in the National League in batting average and RBIs. He's fourth in runs and 12th in doubles.

His contributions to the Astros run far beyond that. His teammates, coaches and manager all talk endlessly about his attitude, enthusiasm and energy. He has been a perfect acquistion in every sense of the word.

''You probably don't have an hour to talk about it,'' Lance Berkman said when I asked about Tejada's contributions. ''He's unbelievable. He's a guy you would build a team around. He's everything you want in the clubhouse, on the field. He gets big hits, plays good defense. He's upbeat all the time. He's great. He makes everybody around him better.''

How does Cecil Cooper like Miguel Tejada?

''Every time I go to the mound, he's talking. He's talking about the game, something that happened in the game. He's always encouraging guys. You can hear him, `Come on guys, we're only one run down.' It's just his leadership. He has been really solid in that area. We thought he'd be an offensive player. He has been a great teammate. He's the one guy, him and Ausmus, clapping everybody's hand. He does it every single thing. That's his routine. He has pulled us together in so many different ways. It's just who he is and how he goes about his business. It's fun. I like it this way. He gets everybody fired up.''

[Westlake]

What's wrong with that? That's why Jeter stays somehow relevant to discussions of top shortstops. Because he does one fairly important thing well enough(OBP) to put him somewhere in the same universe with actual top shortstops and he's a Yankee. Dassit.

You just told me what was wrong with that.


From the Houston Chronicle,


Turns out, the Astros have two MVP candidates. Miguel Tejada's batting average hasn't been below .331 since April 20. He enters today's game hitting .344. He's fifth in the National League in batting average and RBIs. He's fourth in runs and 12th in doubles.

His contributions to the Astros run far beyond that. His teammates, coaches and manager all talk endlessly about his attitude, enthusiasm and energy. He has been a perfect acquistion in every sense of the word.

''You probably don't have an hour to talk about it,'' Lance Berkman said when I asked about Tejada's contributions. ''He's unbelievable. He's a guy you would build a team around. He's everything you want in the clubhouse, on the field. He gets big hits, plays good defense. He's upbeat all the time. He's great. He makes everybody around him better.''

How does Cecil Cooper like Miguel Tejada?

''Every time I go to the mound, he's talking. He's talking about the game, something that happened in the game. He's always encouraging guys. You can hear him, `Come on guys, we're only one run down.' It's just his leadership. He has been really solid in that area. We thought he'd be an offensive player. He has been a great teammate. He's the one guy, him and Ausmus, clapping everybody's hand. He does it every single thing. That's his routine. He has pulled us together in so many different ways. It's just who he is and how he goes about his business. It's fun. I like it this way. He gets everybody fired up.''

Tejada isn't in the same league as Lance Berkman right now. Not in the same universe.

He has a good attitude, he's enthusiastic, has a lot of energy, and talks a lot. He's unbelievable. He can't be believed. If the Astros are only one run down, well he'll just come right out and say it. He gives people high fives. M-V-P! M-V-P!

[Texas Rangers]

Let 'em know Westlake.

Nothing screams leadership skills a guy with pretty credible PED accusations, who is untruthful to management about his own age, and has the charisma to walk out in the middle of interviews with the media...

Regardless, you think the RBI differential might have something to do with the fact that Hanley spent the first thirty games of the season in the lead-off spot?...

this isnt about off-field activites. that's the equivalent of saying pete rose isn't one of the greatest hitters because he gambled on baseball.

[Texas Rangers]

Not at all. I just think that Ramirez needs to establish himself more than Rollins has.

Agreed. Hanley hasn't proved to me he is this all-mighty all-star. Give it a year or two. Rollins > Hanley.

[Captain Cold Nose]

this isnt about off-field activites. that's the equivalent of saying pete rose isn't one of the greatest hitters because he gambled on baseball.

No, because he pretty much was just a line drive singles hitter with limited power.

A lack of honesty can easily backfire in regards to Tejada's leadership. I think that's pretty valid commentary. Energy, while a good thing in this case, doesn't necessarily equate to leadership. Otherwise M.L. Carr would have received a bit more credit in his NBA career for that.

How much longer has Rollins actually been in the league than Ramirez? Has he even come up for FA eligibility yet?

[cardsfanatic]

What's wrong with that? That's why Jeter stays somehow relevant to discussions of top shortstops. Because he does one fairly important thing well enough(OBP) to put him somewhere in the same universe with actual top shortstops and he's a Yankee. Dassit.

You have to be kidding me. Let's compare the top SS's in the game to Jeter offensively.

Jeter is 47 points better in BA, 49 points better in OBP and 31 points better in SLG than the average _HITTER_ (aka, all positions included) in baseball for his entire career. Seems like a guy that does more than gets on base to me. But let's just compare their OPS to league average. Jeter is 80 points better than average in OPS for his career. Want to know where some other SS's weigh in at?

Jose Reyes - NEGATIVE 9 points
Miguel Tejada - +60
Jimmy Rollins - NEGATIVE 3 points
Hanley Ramirez - +126
Michael Young - +14
Edgar Renteria - NEGATIVE 16 points

Now, for the OPS+ loving crowd so those numbers are "adjusted"...

Renteria - 97
Young - 104
Tejada - 114
Rollins - 99
Reyes - 97
Ramirez - 132


Drumroll....

Jeter - 122

So, really, the only guy better than Jeter offensive (outside of A-Rod) during his career at the plate (shortstops only) is Hanley Ramirez with all of 1400 AB's to his credit. Don't get me wrong, I even said I'd take Hanley over Jeter right this very minute due to age and other things... but Hanley has a long way to go before he can carry Jeter's jock on any kind of a career scale. Maybe you should take those Boston blinders off and actually look at offensive stats, amigo. Because when it comes to offense none of these other guys really compare, sans a "grizzled 2-year vet".

[Westlake]

How much longer has Rollins actually been in the league than Ramirez? Has he even come up for FA eligibility yet?

He's been an everyday starter since 2001, though 2007 has been the only season where he was clearly an above average ML hitter, though his baserunning makes him a bigger force offensively. I just don't understand why 4 years of complete mediocrity makes someone better than a guy who has hit the league on fire since he was called up.

[Westlake]

So, really, the only guy better than Jeter offensive (outside of A-Rod) during his career at the plate (shortstops only) is Hanley Ramirez.

And Garciaparra.

[cardsfanatic]

And Garciaparra.

For all of three seasons? Sure.

[dl4060]

For all of three seasons? Sure.

I would not say for only 3 seasons. Taken cumulatively, Nomar was a better hitter than Jeter through 2003.

With the bat:

97 Nomar
98 Nomar
99 Pretty even, too close too call. I would love to have either. Two truly great seasons.

00 Nomar
01 Jeter by default, Nomar was hurt all year. I would not call this a very convincing victory, though it does bring up Jeter's major advantage over Nomar: Durability, along with the ability to remain at short.

02 Nomar
03 I would probably go with Jeter, although barely. It is very close, not a landslide by any means.

I don't think it is accurate to reduce Garciaparra to his three seasons from 98-00. He was still a great player when he came back. I do not see any seasons where both were healthy where Jeter was head and shoulders above Nomar. Nomar was clearly a better hitter from 97-03.

I have never understood the perception that Nomar was not a great player when he came back from missing 01. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth, but I have heard that general opinion here a fair bit. Nomar was a bit of a disappointment, but go look at his stats in 02 and 03, and then factor in that he was a shortstop. Those numbers would have been outstanding for anyone else, they just were not quite as awesome as what he had done before. Having two seasons in a row like 99-00 probably led to a perception that he would do that when he came back. Not many teams would complain about his production in 02 and 03. Nor would many teams complain about having Jeter at SS.

Jeter has not faired better than should be expected in MVP voting. He has never had a season where he was head and shoulders above everyone else, but he had good arguments in 1999 and 2006. He is both overrated and underrated at the same time, much like David Beckham. His career in the spotlight has led to his being named the "face of baseball." He deserves to be a first ballot HOF regardless of whether or not the general public overrates him.

[Old Sweater]

For all of three seasons? Sure.

You'll have to remember that Westlake's handle use to be Evanappara.

[Westlake]

For all of three seasons? Sure.

They played over 6 seasons at the same position at the same time, and I didn't know said player had to be better than Jeter in every single one of them to be considered "better." Over the time (6 1/2 seasons or so) they played at the same position, Nomar was better offensively. Plain and simple.

EDIT: dl4060 summed it up pretty nicely.

[cardsfanatic]

I would not say for only 3 seasons. Taken cumulatively, Nomar was a better hitter than Jeter through 2003.

With the bat:

97 Nomar
98 Nomar
99 Pretty even, too close too call. I would love to have either. Two truly great seasons.

00 Nomar
01 Jeter by default, Nomar was hurt all year. I would not call this a very convincing victory, though it does bring up Jeter's major advantage over Nomar: Durability, along with the ability to remain at short.

02 Nomar
03 I would probably go with Jeter, although barely. It is very close, not a landslide by any means.

I don't think it is accurate to reduce Garciaparra to his three seasons from 98-00. He was still a great player when he came back. I do not see any seasons where both were healthy where Jeter was head and shoulders above Nomar. Nomar was clearly a better hitter from 97-03.

You seem to be an OPS+ guy (you're the reason I included OPS+ in my original post :-P) so I can see how you come to your conclusion. Personally, I'm more of a VORP/EQA person and rates guy (BA/OBP/SLG). The funny thing is, Westlake, from his posts on these boards seems to favor the same stats I do yet agrees with your post. Nomar was good during his flash in the pan run as a shortstop, I'll give him that. About like how Fernando Tatis was a really good third baseman for 2-3 years. Or Kevin Mitchell. And like I said, for three seasons I'll give Nomar a slight edge on Jeter. I'm not willing to go beyond that. That doesn't mean Jeter was head and shoulders above him the rest of the years, in fact, they're pretty close every single year. I'll admit Nomar was definitely Jeter's contemporary for about 1/3rd of his career and on three occassions I feel he was noticeably better than Jeter to the point I'd say he was better in that season. The other years I'd either call a wash or in Jeter's favor. I don't think you'll ever convince me otherwise just like I won't convince you otherwise, I'm sure.

In the end, Nomar will go down in history as a 25-30 range SS all-time... maybe a little higher for the "peak" folks, while Jeter will go down in the top 5-7 range most likely. I don't think there's any doubt based on durability and logentivy, and the fact that even during Nomar's hey day he wasn't that much better in Jeter during the handful of years he was better, that Jeter is no doubt head and shoulders above Nomar in the SS category.

Let's also not forget that career wise, Jeter holds up extremely well (and IMO, better) than Nomar while maintaining that play over nearly 4.5 seasons worth of AB's more than Nomar AND playing a more demanding postion at his later ages to boot.

[cardsfanatic]

They played over 6 seasons at the same position at the same time, and I didn't know said player had to be better than Jeter in every single one of them to be considered "better." Over the time (6 1/2 seasons or so) they played at the same position, Nomar was better offensively. Plain and simple.


It's 6 seasons of a 13 year career inwhich three times Nomar was the better hitter, IMO. That's significant in my book. Three times in Jeter's career, Nomar was better than him... and you want me to say Nomar > Jeter? For those three seasons, I'll admit it. Overall? Nah.

[Rpollard86]

What about the young future star in Yunel Escobar? Comparing Ramirez to Yunel and their pretty close..Escobarhas more hits in less AB than Ramirez...

Escobar - AB/168 H/53 AVG: .315
Ramirez- AB/171 H/52 AVG: .304

Ramirez has struck out 39 times to Escobar striking out 24 times.

Ramirez has 9 HRS to Escobar who is a lead off hitter has 4 HRS

Ramirez has 13 SB to Escobars merely 2 SB which is probably the biggest difference. To me Escobar is a pretty well rounded player. He should def. be mentioned in the one of the best shortstops in the game for being so young and how well he's doing.

[keystone]

Well, not to interrupt a good discussion, but my vote went to Rollins. He's a way better fielder than Hanley Ramirez, and I value good D at SS. Plus, he's an MVP, club house leader, and good base runner.

[TonyStarks]

Hanley Ramirez hands down.

Best display of Speed, Awareness, Power and Range

[Texas Rangers]

What about the young future star in Yunel Escobar? Comparing Ramirez to Yunel and their pretty close..Escobarhas more hits in less AB than Ramirez...

Escobar - AB/168 H/53 AVG: .315
Ramirez- AB/171 H/52 AVG: .304

Ramirez has struck out 39 times to Escobar striking out 24 times.

Ramirez has 9 HRS to Escobar who is a lead off hitter has 4 HRS

Ramirez has 13 SB to Escobars merely 2 SB which is probably the biggest difference. To me Escobar is a pretty well rounded player. He should def. be mentioned in the one of the best shortstops in the game for being so young and how well he's doing.

this isnt about which is having a better season.
its about which shortstop that is currently active in the MLB is considered the best. all around.

[skyking162]

A bunch of people are arguing different questions. These have different answers:

Who's had the best career up to this point? This is probably Jeter or Tejada.

Who's had the best 2008 season so far? This is probably Tejada (and the least interesting/useful of any interpretation of the question).

Who can be expected to perform the best during the rest of 2008? This is the question that most interests me and probably the one that deserve the most attention. Hanley deserves the best offensive forecast by a lot, even though he's "only" been doing it for two years. All that Jeter's track record does for him is make us REALLY sure he's an above-average, but not great hitter. The fact that Hanley's a louser fielder bring him back to the pack, which includes Rollins (overrated), Reyes (could actually be underrated righth now, but he needs to show over the rest of 2008 that the past 4-5 months are just a slump), and maybe Tejada (don't overreact to two months of production). Furcal and the others are further behind.

[keystone]

I don't like to admit it, but Rollins could be overrated. Only time will tell. If he can put up numbers even close to last year's for the majority of his career, he will be hard to ignore. I like him because he is the whole defense + offense package. No huge power numbers, but the ability to score runs and drive in a respectable amount. Speed is an asset, too.

Jeter is a great player, but I am not sold on his defense. He looks good doing what he does, but even Bill James ranked the lowly Adam Everett's defense over Jeter's.

[I see what you mean about the question being confusing, skyking. Are we talking about today, this season so far, or a career?]

Reyes may have the most potential of all of them, but it's hard to figure out if the first 2/3 of his season last year was a fluke or not. He sure has the raw talent, and he plays decent D.

Hanley Ramirez is developing into a pretty reliable offensive SS, but until he can make the plays, I can't rank him up there at the top. And a lot of pitchers would agree! They like a good defensive short shop playing behind them. Hanley can be wild.

[dl4060]

You seem to be an OPS+ guy (you're the reason I included OPS+ in my original post :-P) so I can see how you come to your conclusion. Personally, I'm more of a VORP/EQA person and rates guy (BA/OBP/SLG). The funny thing is, Westlake, from his posts on these boards seems to favor the same stats I do yet agrees with your post. Nomar was good during his flash in the pan run as a shortstop, I'll give him that. About like how Fernando Tatis was a really good third baseman for 2-3 years. Or Kevin Mitchell. And like I said, for three seasons I'll give Nomar a slight edge on Jeter. I'm not willing to go beyond that. That doesn't mean Jeter was head and shoulders above him the rest of the years, in fact, they're pretty close every single year. I'll admit Nomar was definitely Jeter's contemporary for about 1/3rd of his career and on three occassions I feel he was noticeably better than Jeter to the point I'd say he was better in that season. The other years I'd either call a wash or in Jeter's favor. I don't think you'll ever convince me otherwise just like I won't convince you otherwise, I'm sure.

I would not call Nomar's run a flash in the pan. I really don't see how a Tatis comparison is valid, when one actually looks at the numbers. He had a run from 97-03 where he was an all-star shortstop every year when healthy. That is a period of greatness, not a flash in the pan. Mitchell and Tatis were more like two year runs, not 6 out of 7 year runs.

If Jeter was far better offensively in 1999 than Hanley Ramirez in 2007 than how is Nomar not far better in 1998 and 2000 than Jeter was in those seasons? I am something of an OPS+ guy because it helps level the playing field, but even going by rate stats I come to the same conclusion. Just by looking at the numbers I see a clearly larger difference between Nomar and Jeter in 98 and 00 than between Jeter's 99 and Hanley's 07.

In 1997 Nomar beats Jeter by about 15 BA and more than 100 SLG. Jeter wins in OBP, but I still cannot see that as a wash. Is there something specific about that season which tells you they are even? I can't see it, which does not mean it is not there, just curious. 2002 is the same thing, Nomar beats Jeter by 13 in BA, and more than 100 in SLG. Rate stats actually push Nomar further ahead of OPS+, as they do not park adjust. 2003 I will give a push, although it is very close. My gut leans towards Jeter there, but it really is close. I would have to give 2003 to Nomar, however based on the fact that Jeter only played 119 games. If Jeter had played in more I would probably give him the edge, although it is close.


Overall, I would call it a wash for the period of 1997-2003, because of Nomar's 2001. When on the field, he was better, although no team with either could complain.

Are there any specific numbers that you feel point to Jeter being ahead in 97, 01, or 03? I don't see them, but I am curious as to what you see.




In the end, Nomar will go down in history as a 25-30 range SS all-time... maybe a little higher for the "peak" folks, while Jeter will go down in the top 5-7 range most likely. I don't think there's any doubt based on durability and logentivy, and the fact that even during Nomar's hey day he wasn't that much better in Jeter during the handful of years he was better, that Jeter is no doubt head and shoulders above Nomar in the SS category.

I don't really see Nomar in the SS category, he did not play quite long enough. If he been healthy for 2001 and 2004 I would put him there, but I think he does not quite have the number of games to really rate. It is close, he just barely misses the cut off. If Nomar had put up 2-3 more seasons like 98-00 he would be in Ernie Banks company, IMO, but with his injury record that did not happen. I don't quite consider Banks a shortstop, but I also don't consider him a 1B either. He is in a between category. Give Nomar 2 more seasons with an ops+ above 140 at short, and then have him move to first and stay in the lineup at 06 levels, and he would rank with Banks, a clear HOF guy, but not definitely a 1B or a SS.

Arod is in a different category here. He has more games at short, and moved for a different reason. Because he could have remained at short, I do not penalize him.

Banks and Nomar both go down as guys who put together possibly the best 6-7 year run of modern shortstops. I cannot rate the against Ripken or Jeter, however, as they were not able to stay there.




Let's also not forget that career wise, Jeter holds up extremely well (and IMO, better) than Nomar while maintaining that play over nearly 4.5 seasons worth of AB's more than Nomar AND playing a more demanding postion at his later ages to boot.

I can't see any doubt about that. The comparison is no longer really of any use as Nomar has not been able to stay on the field or at short.

One of Jeter's great virtues is that he has been able to stay at SS longer than most, and still be a great hitter. This, IMO, is much more valuable than all of his supposed intangibles. Jeter may not have been a great SS on the field, but he was a great hitter, and he was able to play SS, which counts for quite a bit in my book. Many great shortstops are not able to stay there, Banks being a good example. Jeter is now almost 34, and he is still at short.

If I had to pick one modern SS to play for 6-7 years, after Arod, it would be Banks, then Nomar, then Jeter or Ripken. If I needed one for 13-14 years, then after Arod, it would be Jeter, then Ripken.

I see Yount as another between guy, albeit one who moved to another key defensive position.

[Rapmaster]

this isnt about which is having a better season.
its about which shortstop that is currently active in the MLB is considered the best. all around.

Yunel Escobar was supposed to be a stop-gap guy until Elvis Andrus developed. They called him up last year as a bench player and quite frankly, impressed the hell out of everyone. Pretty much when he stole the 2 consecutive bases last year (Zimmerman was shifted), people realized Renteria was not going to be a Brave much longer. He also gave the Braves the flexibility to include Andrus in the Texeira deal.

As a player, Escobar's pretty well rounded (from what we've seen). He's aggressive but he's got decent command of the strike-zone, he's got some speed and a little power and can play some defense. He's a little erratic, but I haven't seen him lolli-gag like Hanley did a few times last season.

.320/.383/.442 and a 117 OPS+ in 491 at-bats (9 HRs, 47 BBs, 68 Ks, 7/11 in SB)

.314/.370/.405 and a 101 OPS+ in 582 ABs. (10 HRs, 48 BBs, 102 Ks, 14/21 in SB).

The first line is Escobar's playing time last year with this year's. The bottom line is Jeter's first season (minus his 15 game callup). Of course, Jeter was 2 years younger but for comparison's sake, it's close enough.

While I don't think Escobar's the best SS in baseball at the moment, I think he should've been included in the poll. From a tools standpoint he's plus in every respect and if youngsters like Reyes and Ramirez are included in the poll, I think it'd be fair to include Yunel, who's going to be the Braves' SS for at least a couple years (depending on what they do with Lillibridge).

[keystone]

Rapmaster -- I agree. He's going to be one to keep an eye on. Lots of potential there...

[White Knight]

Sorry, but that's a stupid requirement. This isn't football or basketball where 1 player can take their team to the playoffs all on their own. It's also May.


To answer the question, Hanley Ramirez by far. Reyes has not been hitting well, Jeter is over-the-hill, Rollins is grossly overrated (the Phillies played better without him than with him), Furcal is having an excellent year but is on the DL and not as good as Hanley, Tejada is good but not the player he used to be.

Jeter is over the hill? Now I've seen it all.

[White Knight]

anyone who doesn't think its hanley is hilarious

He just started playing three years ago, so he doesn't get my vote. In 25 years, when all on that list above are retired, Jeter likely will be rated the highest. 3,800 hits will be no joke.

[willshad]

He just started playing three years ago, so he doesn't get my vote. In 25 years, when all on that list above are retired, Jeter likely will be rated the highest. 3,800 hits will be no joke.

lol, you seriously think Jeter will get anywhere near that many hits? Roberto Alomar was ahead of Jeter's pace at the same age, and he didnt make it to 3000.

[White Knight]

lol, you seriously think Jeter will get anywhere near that many hits? Roberto Alomar was ahead of Jeter's pace at the same age, and he didnt make it to 3000.

Yes, I put Jeter on at least 3,500. We'll know in three more years. If he can average 190+ in 2008, 2009, and 2010, He likely will get there. Plus he has shown no signs of aging.

[willshad]

Yes, I put Jeter on at least 3,500. We'll know in three more years. If he can average 190+ in 2008, 2009, and 2010, He likely will get there. Plus he has shown no signs of aging.

How many will Edgar Renteria get? 3500?

[NYMets523]

Jeter is over the hill? Now I've seen it all.

He's not in his prime anymore and he isn't getting any better.

[White Knight]

How many will Edgar Renteria get? 3500?

Hard to say. Per a 162 game average, Renteria averages 624 at-bats and 182 hits. Jeter averages 656 at-bats and 207 hits.

I's say Renteria gets about 2,800. I don't see him aging well in the next 5-8 years.

[White Knight]

He's not in his prime anymore and he isn't getting any better.

He had a great season last year. He may not be getting better, but he isn't getting worse yet either.

[NYMets523]

His year last year was in line with his career average. Not what I'd define as great. His SB took a nose dive from 2006.

[keystone]

Well, these are not your father's shortstops, for sure! :D I remember when Ozzie would have been the number one choice, hand's down because of his defense -- and later for his small ball offense.

Now, Hanley can commit 26 errors a year, but because he is an offensive threat. he's The Man.

Which guy does a pitcher want?

[White Knight]

His year last year was in line with his career average. Not what I'd define as great. His SB took a nose dive from 2006.

Matching his season average is not over the hill. He's not going down in hits by a longshot.

[Zagi-CRO]

My list on May/26:



Rafael Furcal 10.03 0.366
Hanley Ramirez 8.20 0.3
Jimmy Rollins 7.97 0.319
Jose Reyes 7.91 0.276
Miguel Tejada 7.73 0.335
Cristian Guzman 6.96 0.298
Ryan Theriot 6.88 0.309
Michael Young 6.82 0.28
Stephen Drew 6.75 0.281
Clint Barmes 6.61 0.343