Pros & Cons - New Yankee Stadium and 70's renovation

[SparkyL]

There has been a lot of passionate discussion on the merits of replacing the House that Ruth Built with a new Stadium. Equally passionate has been discussion of the impact of the 1974-75 renovation to the original ballpark.

Since these conversations have been "encrouching" on the New Stadium Construction thread, this thread needed to be created.

Have at it . . . . !!!

[SparkyL]

And for the record, while the renovation did take away from some of the original "feel," I think it is an engineering marvel. I have some blueprints from the renovation that show exactly how they were able to support a massive upper deck that was originally only supported in the front and the back, without losing too much of the Loge and lower deck to do it.

As for the new Stadium, in general I am for it; however, my support will certainly wane if it turns out that the "average" ticket buyer is precluded from accessing substantial sections of the park. Making some of the lounges and clubs exclusive to season ticket and suites holders is perfectly acceptable. Limiting access to entire concourses is not.

As for the current Stadium, based on what they are doing with the new one, it looks like they could have returned some of the original design elements (such as the frieze) to it if they really wanted to.

[Chevy114]

As an outsider looking in, it doesn't feel like the same stadium they built for ruth or even the same stadium that they added on to until the renovations actually started. It was cool that it stayed in the same place and they kept most of the stadium intact, but they did so many dramatic changes, I don't look at it the same way I do with fenway or wrigley.

So to me its like getting rid of a stadium from the 70s such as 3 rivers or shea. They talk about better site lines, wider seat rows, and bigger concourses; so I would be in favor of getting a new stadium to get those things!

[GordonGecko]

Good idea moving this thread here, let's keep the other board for actual construction progress discussions and pictures. What started some of this was when I posted that the renovated stadium isn't the same place as the pre-renovated stadium.

People were complaining that the 2009 stadium is not going to be the same, that the history of the old place is going to be lost, etc... So my whole reason for bringing up the discussion is that we've ALREADY erased the real Yankee stadium in the renovation, and that moving it now across the street is completely isignificant to the history since Yankee Stadium was already gutted in the 70's.

If people wanted to complain about losing the original Yankee Stadium they should have done it 3 decades ago

[Sean O]

People were complaining that the 2009 stadium is not going to be the same, that the history of the old place is going to be lost, etc... So my whole reason for bringing up the discussion is that we've ALREADY erased the real Yankee stadium in the renovation, and that moving it now across the street is completely isignificant to the history since Yankee Stadium was already gutted in the 70's.

If people wanted to complain about losing the original Yankee Stadium they should have done it 3 decades ago

I happen to plain agree with you here, but I'll play devil's advocate. Here's a good example. If you've ever been to Kennywood amusement park in Pittsburgh (if you haven't, I highly recommend doing so) you probably went on The Racer. Here's the exterior of the ride now, and when it was built:
http://cache.rcdb.com/pictures/picmax/p4194.jpg

However, back in the 60s/70s, that exterior was changed to a more modern, hideously ugly multi-colored design. Now, what if Kennywood, instead of simply taking the easier task of restoring the exterior, had ripped down the entire ride because it was "out of date" or unpopular?

Yes, Yankee Stadium was hurt greatly in the 70s renovations. However, when the wrecking ball starts knocking it down next year, we will forever lose the chance to restore the park. The 70s renovation wasn't all bad, as they effectively removed the lower deck's support posts, while maintaining the insanely close upper deck.

I am fully confident that a tremendous number of luxury boxes could be added to the park, while also bringing those iconic Yankee Stadium elements (the frieze in the grandstand, mainly) back. Monument Park can be relocated to another area that doesn't negatively affect the views of thousands of seats, and the concourses can get a renovation that removes the 70s buildings that stick out sorely, without removing functionality.

[MJP]

I would have preferred for Yankee Stadium to have been renovated.

That said, the exterior of the new park is outstanding. Further, the old stadium was claustrofobic and the concourses were very narrow. The stadium food venors were also limited as were the washrooms.

My only problem with the new stadium is the Upperdeck. The yankees should have told HOK to f-off and replicate the original upperdeck. I also would have loved a return of death valley, with the orginal three monuments, flag and plaques on the wall.

[curb my enthusiasm]

I realize that Yankee Stadium's upper deck is very close to the field, but I would prefer not to sit there unless I'm directly behind home plate. If you sit down the lines, unless you are in the 1st or 2nd row, you cannot see a great portion of the outfield. I am going to prefer the new stadium's upper deck. Although it will be pushed farther back, it will allow for better sightlines.

I've sat in other stadium's upper decks that are pushed further back, such as Tropicana and Shea, and I had no problem with it. I may have been a little bit farther away from the action, but at least I could see ALL the action, and not have to guess what happened from the crowd's reaction.

[MarcianoNY]

I realize that Yankee Stadium's upper deck is very close to the field, but I would prefer not to sit there unless I'm directly behind home plate. If you sit down the lines, unless you are in the 1st or 2nd row, you cannot see a great portion of the outfield. I am going to prefer the new stadium's upper deck. Although it will be pushed farther back, it will allow for better sightlines.

The upper deck is probably the thing I'm most conflicted about in the new stadium. We'll have to wait and see, yes it looks more generic, but on the other hand when we used to sit in the upper deck on the first baseline, you could go an entire game without seeing Paul O'Neill in the outfield! Its funny how you tend to forget about stuff like that.

[yankees82]

I realize that Yankee Stadium's upper deck is very close to the field, but I would prefer not to sit there unless I'm directly behind home plate. If you sit down the lines, unless you are in the 1st or 2nd row, you cannot see a great portion of the outfield. I am going to prefer the new stadium's upper deck. Although it will be pushed farther back, it will allow for better sightlines.

i agree. The closeness of the upper deck means that a chunk of the action is taking place underneath you rather than in front of you. And if you're in the first row of the upperdeck, you get a fantastic view of the metal railing. It's very annoying and possibly one of the worst seats in the house IMO.

[curb my enthusiasm]

The upper deck is probably the thing I'm most conflicted about in the new stadium. We'll have to wait and see, yes it looks more generic, but on the other hand when we used to sit in the upper deck on the first baseline, you could go an entire game without seeing Paul O'Neill in the outfield! Its funny how you tend to forget about stuff like that.

Think of all the people who missed the Jeffrey Maier incident, and Jeter winning game 4 of the 2001 World Series. Thousands of people who paid good money sitting in the right field upper deck completely missed those!

[SparkyL]

The upper deck is probably the thing I'm most conflicted about in the new stadium. We'll have to wait and see, yes it looks more generic, but on the other hand when we used to sit in the upper deck on the first baseline, you could go an entire game without seeing Paul O'Neill in the outfield! Its funny how you tend to forget about stuff like that.

I think that in NYS HOK could have
1) Not split the upper deck
2) Added 3-5 rows in the back
3) Moved it a little closer

I also think that the roof should have extended out a bit more as well. It looks to be not much wider than the existing Stadium's and if you sit in the back couple of rows you will have the frieze in your face (in the old Stadium in the back row the frieze was at least twice as far away and therefore not as obtrusive).

[SparkyL]

I would have preferred for Yankee Stadium to have been renovated.

That said, the exterior of the new park is outstanding. Further, the old stadium was claustrofobic and the concourses were very narrow. The stadium food venors were also limited as were the washrooms.

My only problem with the new stadium is the Upperdeck. The yankees should have told HOK to f-off and replicate the original upperdeck. I also would have loved a return of death valley, with the orginal three monuments, flag and plaques on the wall.

A lot of people want to return the Monuments to the field . . . but then we fans would no longer get to see them close up . . . thoughts on that??

[locke40]

But aren't those quirks about ballparks the reason they are so great? I have full confidence in the original architects that they knew what they were doing, and chose to have the upper grandstand extremely close and intimidating, regardless of the obstructive support beams. Also, they chose to put a roof on the stadium knowing that the sun during day games is absolutely brutal, and knew full well that support beams would have to be used again in the upper grandstand area.

No matter what you think about the renovation (I personally think it was a terrible job, the support beams should NEVER have been removed), Yankee Stadium is still a time warp to another era of baseball. The reasons that I keep hearing (on this forum and everywhere else) for the love of Yankee Stadium has nothing to do with what they did during renovations, but for the aspects of the original stadium that still remain. The renovation that should be taking place right now should consist of bringing back the support beams in the lower and upper grandstands, the roof with a real copper frieze, the return of the original outfield dimensions, and repainting the seats/interior stadium a turquoise color.

[SparkyL]

Good idea moving this thread here, let's keep the other board for actual construction progress discussions and pictures. What started some of this was when I posted that the renovated stadium isn't the same place as the pre-renovated stadium.

People were complaining that the 2009 stadium is not going to be the same, that the history of the old place is going to be lost, etc... So my whole reason for bringing up the discussion is that we've ALREADY erased the real Yankee stadium in the renovation, and that moving it now across the street is completely isignificant to the history since Yankee Stadium was already gutted in the 70's.

If people wanted to complain about losing the original Yankee Stadium they should have done it 3 decades ago

Agreed but . . . at the beginning of the new Stadium "sales job" the Yankees stated very clearly that they were going to recreate the 1923 Stadium, with modern amenities. To me that meant you start with the Osborn design, fix design flaws (narrow concourses and sight lines) and then add the ammenities. What they wound up doing was starting with an HOK design and adding some YS elements to it (and even then with "modern interpretation").

So what we thought we were getting and what we are getting are different. At least in my opinion.

[MarcianoNY]

Good point. With all the money they spend on groundskeeping, as well as increased security, there's no way we're ever going back to an era when the fans could just walk across the field after the game. A lot of people would miss out on monument park and it would become just a nice retro gimmick like all the new parks instead of what it is, a place where fans can learn about and pay tribute to the greats before a game.

[locke40]

Think of all the people who missed the Jeffrey Maier incident, and Jeter winning game 4 of the 2001 World Series. Thousands of people who paid good money sitting in the right field upper deck completely missed those!

The Jeffrey Maier incident was literally 1/2 a second from beginning to end. Baseball is not like a movie where if you miss part of it, the entire thing is ruined. I bet those people in the upper deck that couldn't see the homerun were even MORE excited when they found out it was called a homerun (probably 2 seconds after those who actually saw it and began cheering) because they reacted to the 50,000+ fans going crazy.

I am going to miss the upper deck homerun after this year. They are so amazing.

[MarcianoNY]

But aren't those quirks about ballparks the reason they are so great? I have full confidence in the original architects that they knew what they were doing, and chose to have the upper grandstand extremely close and intimidating, regardless of the obstructive support beams. Also, they chose to put a roof on the stadium knowing that the sun during day games is absolutely brutal, and knew full well that support beams would have to be used again in the upper grandstand area.

No matter what you think about the renovation (I personally think it was a terrible job, the support beams should NEVER have been removed), Yankee Stadium is still a time warp to another era of baseball. The reasons that I keep hearing (on this forum and everywhere else) for the love of Yankee Stadium has nothing to do with what they did during renovations, but for the aspects of the original stadium that still remain. The renovation that should be taking place right now should consist of bringing back the support beams in the lower and upper grandstands, the roof with a real copper frieze, the return of the original outfield dimensions, and repainting the seats/interior stadium a turquoise color.

I think this is the fundamental difference. Some people would like Yankee Stadium to be a diorama of life in the 1940s or whatever. Hoping that they will re-install the support beams is just ludicrous. In my opinion, Yankee Stadium was never about the quirks. It was, at its time, the most modern, utterly sophisticated stadium; the first triple-tiered park; the first multipurpose facility, etc. Keeping the focus of the experience on the game has always been central to the mission of both the Stadium AND the Yankees. If they could have designed it without support beams in the 20s, I'm sure they would've. Death valley was not intended to make baseball games more exciting, it was intended to fit a regulation track and football field. Also, to make a seemingly obvious point, ballpark design in the early part of this century was less influenced by the designers' "knowing what they were doing," and much more influenced by limitations in inner-city real estate. There's no way anybody in their right mind would've designed the green monster if Fenway had been built with limitless space.

[Chevy114]

I think this is the fundamental difference. Some people would like Yankee Stadium to be a diorama of life in the 1940s or whatever. Hoping that they will re-install the support beams is just ludicrous. In my opinion, Yankee Stadium was never about the quirks. It was, at its time, the most modern, utterly sophisticated stadium; the first triple-tiered park; the first multipurpose facility, etc. Keeping the focus of the experience on the game has always been central to the mission of both the Stadium AND the Yankees. If they could have designed it without support beams in the 20s, I'm sure they would've. Death valley was not intended to make baseball games more exciting, it was intended to fit a regulation track and football field. Also, to make a seemingly obvious point, ballpark design in the early part of this century was less influenced by the designers' "knowing what they were doing," and much more influenced by limitations in inner-city real estate. There's no way anybody in their right mind would've designed the green monster if Fenway had been built with limitless space.

Great point! Yankee stadium was never built to capture time, it was built to be the best (almost futurisitic) for its time. They did the same thing with the renovations, and I feel they will end up doign the same with the new stadium. Yankee stadium should always stand for the best baseball has to offer since thats all it has ever been in the past!

[MJP]

A lot of people want to return the Monuments to the field . . . but then we fans would no longer get to see them close up . . . thoughts on that??

I'd keep monument park. As a history buff, I think a return of the original three monuments would be a sight to behold. The Mt. Rushmore of baseball. I know it would never happen. Hey, I live in Montreal. As great as the Bell Centre is, it still isn't the Forum.

[yankees82]

The renovation that should be taking place right now should consist of bringing back the support beams in the lower and upper grandstands, the roof with a real copper frieze, the return of the original outfield dimensions, and repainting the seats/interior stadium a turquoise color.

Bring BACK the support beams?? I mean, I get nostalgic about the old stadium too (which i've only seen in old pictures and footage) but there's no reason to set us back decades architecturally.

Sadly, they renovated a classic stadium in the 1970s so drastically that it can hardly be recognized today, but 30 years later they can't un-renovate it. All they can do is build a modern interpretation of it.

[YankeeFanBx]

I went to my first Yankee game at the stadium in 1965 and was in awe of this huge lovely baseball field! But you could not help but notice that this once beautiful gem was in bad shape and need some repairs.... soon!
The job that was done during the renovation of '73, right or wrong , was much needed or I'm sure they would have torn the stadium down with not much opposition, the truth was it was neglected as much as the Bronx it self was neglected.
I wish the new Yankee Stadium could have been built on the exact spot it is now , but that's not to be, that's pretty sad.
I won't miss the renovated park much, I will miss the memories and history that was made there.
Everything changes, for better or worse, let's all hope the New Yankee Stadium gives us new moments to remember and 26 more WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!

[Gary Dunaier]

Yankee stadium was never built to capture time, it was built to be the best (almost futurisitic) for its time. They did the same thing with the renovations, and I feel they will end up doign the same with the new stadium.

How true.

If it were up to me I'd have totally demolished the current (1923-2008) facility, played at Shea/Citi for a couple of years, and built a totally modern facility on the site. The only "preservation" would be the footprint of the field, but everything else would be fair game. Since, in real life, the Yankees are using part of the parkland across Ruppert Place for parking, I'd have felt free to encroach onto that area, as well as the present parking garage site across from the first base side, to expand the stadium if need be... the only "sacred" boundaries being River Avenue and 161st Street.

Remember, Cols. Ruppert and Huston weren't looking to restore the glory of Hilltop Park when they built Yankee Stadium, they were looking to build the best facility early 1920s technology would allow.

[six4three]

A good point.

There are things I like about the new site, though. Always hated having the parking garage twenty feet from the stadium. The new open plan suits me just fine.

Like your idea, though. That's essentially what Freddy Ferrer proposed when he ran for mayor back in 1997.

[Swoboda4]

Bring BACK the support beams?? I mean, I get nostalgic about the old stadium too (which i've only seen in old pictures and footage) but there's no reason to set us back decades architecturally.

Sadly, they renovated a classic stadium in the 1970s so drastically that it can hardly be recognized today, but 30 years later they can't un-renovate it. All they can do is build a modern interpretation of it.

No need for support beams, I agree. Unless they were made from plexiglass! From the field looking in they'd appear opaque, but clear if you were sitting behind them, like a one way mirror (ha ha).

I disagree a bit about the ability to unrenovate. The way to motivate an engineer/architect is tell them something "can't" be done. The old saying we had in the Marines was "you can't because you won't". It "could" be largely done. But there is no "will" to do it. I don't think you could shorten the upper deck again, but you could definitely install a ton of suites in the middle tier. Hell take away the entire middle tier seating and make it all suites. Extend the roofline out and create a new fieze/roofline. Copper might be too heavy, but a fiberglass/resin replica could be a lightweight alternative. Recase the exterior of the upperdeck extension girders with a replica of the original concrete facing (again, might need fiberglass). That gets you a long way towards the look of the old place, and I don't think I've spent 300 million yet.

The answer would have been to shut down for two years, play with the Mets in New Shea, and move back into the restored stadium. See, that's the importance of proper PR. The Yankees' project should have been presented as a "restoration" of the original stadium. (1.3 buh-buh-buh-billion dollars goes a long way) The architectural/landmarks preservation atmosphere is much more favorable today than it was in 1970. Look at the Grand Central project. The shame is that it seems too late to actually save the stadium as the primary home of the Yankees (and I'm a Met fan), but remember that until it is actually torn down, it is never too late to preserve it. A campaign should be launched to preserve it, and convert it into a museum, and use the field for college/HS/charity games. How much do you think people would spend to rent out the place for events? How about $20000/an hour to take BP and picnic in the real YS? Shea is rented out for events like this all the time, and the going rate starts at $50000 for three hours of BP and a picnic. And that's just Shea. A restored YS? You could name your price and people would pay it. (I'm starting to sound like James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams)

[David Atkatz]

Old Yankee Stadium is "retrovated" as described above, while the Yankees play in NYS. In three years, say, as described elsewhere on this site, the Yankees will have recouped their $1.3B expenditure in ticket sales alone.

The Yankees move back into the real Stadium, and NYS is torn down, and the land converted back into public parks.

As Hamlet once said "'tis a consummation devoutly to be wished."

[GordonGecko]

Old Yankee Stadium is "retrovated" as described above, while the Yankees play in NYS. In three years, say, as described elsewhere on this site, the Yankees will have recouped their $1.3B expenditure in ticket sales alone.

The Yankees move back into the real Stadium, and NYS is torn down, and the land converted back into public parks.

As Hamlet once said "'tis a consummation devoutly to be wished."

3 Years is a bit optimistic, but I think there's a better than 50/50 chance that a new-new-Yankee Stadium will be rebuilt onto the current site (south of 161st) within 40 years from now

[six4three]

I'd tend to agree, though I see the timeline as being a little farther off than 40 years.

[Yoda]

Have you guys checked out prices for tickets to the last game yet?

I saw one up on stubhub for 16k http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6852/whoamgyb1nf4.gif

[GordonGecko]

Have you guys checked out prices for tickets to the last game yet?

I saw one up on stubhub for 16k http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6852/whoamgyb1nf4.gif

This isn't the forum to discuss, but...

Never pay attention to the highest price on StubHub. The media likes to latch onto those numbers for shock value, but the truth is any Joe can post his tickets there for any price. Some guy was selling a suite for the last game at one point for $5,000,000.

The true market for the last game currently stands at about $300 per ticket for Tier Reserved seats, and a bit less than that for bleachers. Anywhere else is all over the map.

The reason tickets are so expensive is pretty obvious, there's no supply (most ticket holders not selling at any price) and there's huge demand (every baseball fan on earth wants to be at the last game in the most historic stadium).

I think that if we get to September and the Yankees are out of contention, tickets will be going for $500+. If they look like they're going to be in the playoffs, I'd say they could be had for around $200. Either way there's going to be a big ceremony with distinguished guests and all the old timers

[Swoboda4]

3 Years is a bit optimistic, but I think there's a better than 50/50 chance that a new-new-Yankee Stadium will be rebuilt onto the current site (south of 161st) within 40 years from now

How about selling the new YS to the Diamondbacks and move it out to Arizona, like London Bridge!

Seriously, I am disappointed in Yankee fans for not putting up more of a public stink. They are going to actually tear down Yankee Stadium

Let that sink in. Tear. Down. Yankee. Stadium. I know how sad I will be when they tear Shea down, but for all the talk of Pinstripe Pride and "Glory that Was Rome" stuff, I would have expected more sit-ins and self-immolations from the Yankee faithful. Maybe as the day draws nearer.

[David Atkatz]

How about selling the new YS to the Diamondbacks and move it out to Arizona, like London Bridge!

Seriously, I am disappointed in Yankee fans for not putting up more of a public stink. They are going to actually tear down Yankee Stadium

Let that sink in. Tear. Down. Yankee. Stadium. I know how sad I will be when they tear Shea down, but for all the talk of Pinstripe Pride and "Glory that Was Rome" stuff, I would have expected more sit-ins and self-immolations from the Yankee faithful. Maybe as the day draws nearer.

Don't hold your breath, Swaboda.

A few of us heve been speaking up about the upcoming desecration, but no one wants to hear any of that. We're just the voices of doom and gloom, pissing everyone off with our constant whining.

After all, it's such a bee-yoo-ti-ful new Stadium. How can we not be thrilled?

[GordonGecko]

How about selling the new YS to the Diamondbacks and move it out to Arizona, like London Bridge!

Seriously, I am disappointed in Yankee fans for not putting up more of a public stink. They are going to actually tear down Yankee Stadium

Let that sink in. Tear. Down. Yankee. Stadium. I know how sad I will be when they tear Shea down, but for all the talk of Pinstripe Pride and "Glory that Was Rome" stuff, I would have expected more sit-ins and self-immolations from the Yankee faithful. Maybe as the day draws nearer.

Not to keep rehashing this again and again and again but to me they already tore down Yankee Stadium in the 70's. So tearing down what's there now doesn't really make any difference to me. Plus I'm sure you'll be able to buy seats and scrap metal at a price if what's there now means that much to you.

[SparkyL]

But there is no "will" to do it.

That pretty much nails it. And a lot of these renovations could have been done in the off-season like the Soxes (White and Red) have done.

[SparkyL]

Not to keep rehashing this again and again and again but to me they already tore down Yankee Stadium in the 70's. So tearing down what's there now doesn't really make any difference to me. Plus I'm sure you'll be able to buy seats and scrap metal at a price if what's there now means that much to you.

Gordon, I know that you have been passionate about the Stadium being lost with the 70's renovation but in all seriousness, what is lost that really could not be restored?? And what WOULD need to be restored so people who feel the Stadium died in 1973 would feel it is back again?? (in other words - no poles.)

[YankeeStadium1923]

I guess you chose to ignore these pictures I posted to YOU on that other thread filled with passionate Yankee fans circa 1996!

Any moron could see from these pics that the Exterior of Yankee Stadium is all original.

If you chose to ignore that fact...Thats fine....But lets be realistic my friend.

http://members.aol.com/bridge1883/StadiumMerge

[MarcianoNY]

Don't hold your breath, Swaboda.

A few of us heve been speaking up about the upcoming desecration, but no one wants to hear any of that. We're just the voices of doom and gloom, pissing everyone off with our constant whining.

After all, it's such a bee-yoo-ti-ful new Stadium. How can we not be thrilled?

To the contrary, I think most of us understand your opinion. Speaking for myself, between the firing of Joe Torre and the building of the new stadium, I was convinced for awhile that I was gonna quit being a Yankee fan. Of course, everybody says that knowing full well that its impossible and just an empty threat. But seriously, the way the Yankees and the city just went ahead with this showed no concern for what the fans wanted and no concern for the community, which shouldn't surprise anybody. The movement for a new Yankee Stadium had been picking up momentum since the 80s... Not that I'm telling anybody here anything they don't already know. Realistically, who can stand to such political and financial power? For better or worse, what is is and what will be will be, so, I feel that most of us are reserved to accepting the new stadium and making the best of the situation. The negativity, as tempting as it is to go that route, is not going to accomplish anything.

[yankees82]

Sorry but what's the point of "retrovating" the current stadium to look like the original stadium? it's still not gonna be the original stadium. the frieze that mantle hit twice is gone. the mound that don larsen threw his perfect game from is gone. the homeplate that jackie robinson stole is gone. the spot where maris' 61st HR is gone.

They can't bring back what's already gone. They can only replicate it. And I don't think replicating it is worth a 2 yr renovation...errr retrovation.

[Aviator_Frank]

(post deleted)

[Aviator_Frank]

Let that sink in. Tear. Down. Yankee. Stadium. I know how sad I will be when they tear Shea down, but for all the talk of Pinstripe Pride and "Glory that Was Rome" stuff, I would have expected more sit-ins and self-immolations from the Yankee faithful. Maybe as the day draws nearer.
It won't fully sink in till you ride by on the Deegan and see the new stadium there all by its lonesome.

Kinda like riding past the World's Fair on the GC Expy seeing the observation towers and Unisphere but the familar Shea donut is gone.

[MarcianoNY]

I'd rather see the new Stadium by itself then see both, knowing that the inevitable is just around the corner. Seriously, I don't even want to think about it.

[enchano]

I understand the love affair for old Yankee Stadium. It looks great in books, pics, films, and there was nothing better than watching double headers on WPIX on a Sunday afternoon. However, Yankee attendance steadily declined from '46 to '73 due to the TV, the migration to the suburbs, bad teams and the very real perception of the Bronx as Fort Apache. The 4 train was the muggers express, and there were many open lots around the stadium where you couldn't help but worry if your car was going to be one piece when you got out. I grew up in the late 60's early 70's. I had many freinds who were Met fans because their parents refused to go near the Bronx and Shea was the jewel stadium at the time with plenty of parking. (Even in the early 90's you had the squeegee guys roaming the parking lots). By 1973, the stadium was OLD and smelled like stale beer. I remmember them actually considering putting in artificial turf when they were talking about the remolded Stadium because in the early 70's it seemed like 50 pct of the game was played on astroturf. The renovation was much better than the alternative, which was the meadowlands. To this day I dont understand why they didn't keep my favorite YS feature..the low 4 foot outfield fences that angled higher towards the power alleys and CF. Even though it was gutted and literally a shell of its former self, I personally still feel like I'm inside YS when I'm in the renovated stadium. The history of the '76-08 YS is quite amazing in itself. But its time has come. The Yankees are not drawing 2 million anymore. The upper deck is a disaster if there was any emergency. Over 30,000 people and one walkway the width of ONE person would have to scurry to the tunnels and then have to navigate down hairpin ramps about 10 feet wide. Not only has baseball changed since 1973 and 1976 but fans have as well. It used to be you go to a game, you buy a scorecard and you sit in your seat and attentively watch the game. Now..people can't sit still. Its a big deal when you are getting post season type attendance every night. The new stadium can't come soon enough.

[GordonGecko]

I guess you chose to ignore these pictures I posted to YOU on that other thread filled with passionate Yankee fans circa 1996!

Any moron could see from these pics that the Exterior of Yankee Stadium is all original.

If you chose to ignore that fact...Thats fine....But lets be realistic my friend.



There's really no point to your pictures, so they left some exterior that look similar, who gives a flying turd. If you look at the current exterior what really sticks out are those 3 70's Chic rounded glass & concrete buildings which are butt ugly. More importantly, the interior is utterly different, no more death valley, no more upper deck frieze, etc..

[MarcianoNY]

If anything I would say the exterior is the aspect least like the original. Yes the lower walls are the same, but when you drive by on the Major Deegan all you see poking above the trees is that huge upper deck, which, I'll be honest, looks from the outside like it could be the upper deck at three rivers, busch II, any one of those. The upper deck addition is almost double the height of the original walls, and, at least on the exterior, is all new, circa mid-70s. I'm not going to rehash my opinions about the interior, but I think the exterior presents the weakest case that the stadium is the same. Look at the picture. Literally everything you can see except for the letters is new.

[curb my enthusiasm]

So I hear that they're going to tear down Yankee Stadium.

So what?

They've already torn down Comiskey Park, Ebbetts Field, Polo Grounds, and several others. They've also torn down classic arenas such as the Boston Garden, Montreal Forum, and Chicago Stadium. Soldier Field was gutted and replaced with something more modern. So tearing down Yankee Stadium is just another chapter in the cycle of sports life. And what are the Yankees and their fans getting? A better stadium in return.

By the way, didn't the Red Sox already try to move out of Fenway? They wanted to leave that dump and build a better ballpark. And they'd already be playing in one now if the people in the local neighborhood weren't such babies. Eventually the Red Sox will move out of Fenway, and I can't wait to hear all the whining. Mike and the Mad Dog even trashed the place, and they're from New York.

[MarcianoNY]

Eventually the Red Sox will move out of Fenway, and I can't wait to hear all the whining. Mike and the Mad Dog even trashed the place, and they're from New York.

I doubt whether even 10% of "Red Sox Nation" has ever been to Fenway, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was far less outcry the next time the issue is raised, as I'm sure it will be. A little side-track here: Having lived in Wisconsin, I've come to have a deep appreciation for the Packers organization and the way it is owned by a community of over 117,000 shareholders, many of them season ticket-holders. In the long run, this is the only type of ownership that is going to be sympathetic to keeping old, beloved stadiums around... because as long as the fans want it, the stadium stays. If the team was privately owned, Lambeau field would have been replaced with some generic HOK piece of crap with about 5 decks and 100s of luxury suites and martini lounges years ago.

[Swoboda4]

If anything I would say the exterior is the aspect least like the original. Yes the lower walls are the same, but when you drive by on the Major Deegan all you see poking above the trees is that huge upper deck, which, I'll be honest, looks from the outside like it could be the upper deck at three rivers, busch II, any one of those. The upper deck addition is almost double the height of the original walls, and, at least on the exterior, is all new, circa mid-70s. I'm not going to rehash my opinions about the interior, but I think the exterior presents the weakest case that the stadium is the same. Look at the picture. Literally everything you can see except for the letters is new.

Great point. I agree with Gecko when he says that YS was torn down in 1973. It was. My points about restoring the current place come from a landmarks preservation/architectural argument, which are honestly just intellectual gymnastics. Not gonna happen, of course. Actually, from an architectural perspective, Shea Stadium is a far more significant specimen than the current YS. Shea could be restored to its original appearance in a matter of months, if not weeks. Shea also would win huge points for its role in non-baseball related events, and its place in architectural development of the sports facility as multi-purposed. Current YS is the (admittedly nice) result of a simple remedial maintenance job. It has very little to mark it as architecturally significant beyond its representation of an early 1970's aesthetic. Its original Osborne detailing was removed. This is ultimately why YS, in its current form, could not qualify as an architectural landmark. Its original builders would not recognize it. Shea could actually pass the test. Ironic.

[six4three]

I doubt whether even 10% of "Red Sox Nation" has ever been to Fenway, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was far less outcry the next time the issue is raised, as I'm sure it will be. A little side-track here: Having lived in Wisconsin, I've come to have a deep appreciation for the Packers organization and the way it is owned by a community of over 117,000 shareholders, many of them season ticket-holders. In the long run, this is the only type of ownership that is going to be sympathetic to keeping old, beloved stadiums around... because as long as the fans want it, the stadium stays. If the team was privately owned, Lambeau field would have been replaced with some generic HOK piece of crap with about 5 decks and 100s of luxury suites and martini lounges years ago.

As a Packers stockholder, I actively campaigned for renovating Lambeau Field. I hope they never actually sell the naming rights (which, fortunately, seems remote).

As a New Yorker and lifelong Yankee fan, I'd rather they renovate Yankee Stadium and build the new one on the same spot. But that fight has been lost. I can either whinge about the second and final demolition of the old park or enjoy the new stadium for what it is and what it represents for the team.

I have chosen the latter, and will never look back.

[GordonGecko]

...If the team was privately owned, Lambeau field would have been replaced with some generic HOK piece of crap with about 5 decks and 100s of luxury suites and martini lounges years ago.

I'd personally like to see some other big firms jump into the sport stadium design business. It's annoying how every new construction is always HOK, I want to see some fresh ideas - it's like team owners are scared to go against the trend

[MarcianoNY]

Well, I didn't realize this until now but two major facilities in Wisconsin were designed by HKS: Miller Park and the Lambeau Field renovations; both of which look great in my opinion.

[Yoda]

Lambeau is the nicest place ever.

I had the ability to catch a playoff game a couple of years ago but didn't have $150 laying around at that time.



I wish every team was ran the way the packers are ran.




Screw the Bears.

[YankeeStadium1923]

If anything I would say the exterior is the aspect least like the original. Yes the lower walls are the same, but when you drive by on the Major Deegan all you see poking above the trees is that huge upper deck, which, I'll be honest, looks from the outside like it could be the upper deck at three rivers, busch II, any one of those. The upper deck addition is almost double the height of the original walls, and, at least on the exterior, is all new, circa mid-70s. I'm not going to rehash my opinions about the interior, but I think the exterior presents the weakest case that the stadium is the same. Look at the picture. Literally everything you can see except for the letters is new.
Your all hopeless......Who the hell cares what the Stadium looks like from the Major Deegan. I don't watch the game from The Major Deegan! When I walk along Yankee Stadium at street level it's the same facade that throngs of fans have seen since 1923.
If I cared to prove a point...Which I already mentioned your hopeless....Very little of the lower exterior wall would be visible from the Major Deegan or from Harlem along the Harlem River of the Pre-Renovated Stadium....

And by the way the additions to the original Stadium are not double the height and furthermore when you are walking around the corridors of the Renovated Upper deck you are actually walking on the original lower roof of Old Yankee Stadium.

And next time you go to the REAL Yankee Stadium....and thats if you go to games or even live in the State.....Walk the ORIGINAL ramps of the Stadium and you will see flat concrete painted walls....Where you see cinder blocks thats where old windows or vents were located within the ORIGINAL walls. Really it's not that hard to see it's the original structure....Seriously!

[YankeeStadium1923]

So I hear that they're going to tear down Yankee Stadium.

So what?

They've already torn down Comiskey Park, Ebbetts Field, Polo Grounds, and several others. They've also torn down classic arenas such as the Boston Garden, Montreal Forum, and Chicago Stadium. Soldier Field was gutted and replaced with something more modern. So tearing down Yankee Stadium is just another chapter in the cycle of sports life. And what are the Yankees and their fans getting? A better stadium in return.

By the way, didn't the Red Sox already try to move out of Fenway? They wanted to leave that dump and build a better ballpark. And they'd already be playing in one now if the people in the local neighborhood weren't such babies. Eventually the Red Sox will move out of Fenway, and I can't wait to hear all the whining. Mike and the Mad Dog even trashed the place, and they're from New York.
Mike and the Mad Dog have dreams of hosting there talkshow live from the new Yankee Stadium....You see they have something to gain by the Yankees moving in to a New Stadium. Besides your only half right. Mad Dog has said repeatedly that the Yankees don't need a new Stadium.....And if they protested the new Stadium YES would thrown there radio show off the air. Anyway Who cares what they think? If you listen to there show you would know they don't care what there listeners think...They are always right and never listen to the fans opinions....Always cutting you from the air.

[YankeeStadium1923]

Great point. I agree with Gecko when he says that YS was torn down in 1973. It was. My points about restoring the current place come from a landmarks preservation/architectural argument, which are honestly just intellectual gymnastics. Not gonna happen, of course. Actually, from an architectural perspective, Shea Stadium is a far more significant specimen than the current YS. Shea could be restored to its original appearance in a matter of months, if not weeks. Shea also would win huge points for its role in non-baseball related events, and its place in architectural development of the sports facility as multi-purposed. Current YS is the (admittedly nice) result of a simple remedial maintenance job. It has very little to mark it as architecturally significant beyond its representation of an early 1970's aesthetic. Its original Osborne detailing was removed. This is ultimately why YS, in its current form, could not qualify as an architectural landmark. Its original builders would not recognize it. Shea could actually pass the test. Ironic.
"Its original Osborne detailing was removed. This is ultimately why YS, in its current form, could not qualify as an architectural landmark."

Still spreading lies! Try spreading facts.....Original Osborne detailing enclosed.
Elect MR. Met to the Hall of Fame!

A few years ago the City determined that Yankee Stadium was drastically changed and could not be considered for Landmark status. This was orchestrated because the New Yankee Stadium was in it's planning stages and the land that occupies the current Yankee Stadium is needed to comply with the Community Benefits agreement to replace parkland lost to build the New Stadium.

Any building in NYC that is 30 years or older can qualify for Landmark status....
So the renovated Yankee Stadium was eligible for Landmark status on April 15, 2006.
So if NYC does not recognise Yankee Stadium a landmark because the original building was renovated......Why wasn't the renovated version condsidered eligible?

http://members.aol.com/bridge1883/StadiumMerge

[YankeeStadium1923]

There's really no point to your pictures, so they left some exterior that look similar, who gives a flying turd. If you look at the current exterior what really sticks out are those 3 70's Chic rounded glass & concrete buildings which are butt ugly. More importantly, the interior is utterly different, no more death valley, no more upper deck frieze, etc..
"There's really no point to your pictures, so they left some exterior that look similar"

It should look similiar if it's the Original Exterior!

[curb my enthusiasm]

Mike and the Mad Dog have dreams of hosting there talkshow live from the new Yankee Stadium....You see they have something to gain by the Yankees moving in to a New Stadium. Besides your only half right. Mad Dog has said repeatedly that the Yankees don't need a new Stadium.....And if they protested the new Stadium YES would thrown there radio show off the air. Anyway Who cares what they think? If you listen to there show you would know they don't care what there listeners think...They are always right and never listen to the fans opinions....Always cutting you from the air.

After Mad Dog said that the Yankees didn't need a new stadium, Francesa said that he was crazy. Going by Dog's logic, you could say that nobody needed a new ballpark.

I've been to Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia. After that, I realized just how overrated Yankee Stadium was. CBP has beautiful wide open concourses, more food options, more bathrooms, better parking, a great bar/restaurant to eat in before the game, and better sightlines in the majority of seats. Not to mention that it's gorgeous inside. Yankee Stadium is just a boring sea of blue on the inside.

[YankeeStadium1923]

After Mad Dog said that the Yankees didn't need a new stadium, Francesa said that he was crazy. Going by Dog's logic, you could say that nobody needed a new ballpark.

I've been to Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia. After that, I realized just how overrated Yankee Stadium was. CBP has beautiful wide open concourses, more food options, more bathrooms, better parking, a great bar/restaurant to eat in before the game, and better sightlines in the majority of seats. Not to mention that it's gorgeous inside. Yankee Stadium is just a boring sea of blue on the inside.
When I started listening to Mike and the Mad Dog along time ago I liked Francesa better....Over the years I have found Francesa's ego to be unbearable. I prfer Michael Kay. He has a great show on ESPN and allows his listeners to expressthere opinions.

Yankee Stadium could have been expanded out creating wider concourses, more food options, more bathrooms, etc. However The Yankees weren't willing to sacrifice 2 years of profits to preserve history.

In fact, HOK was asked if Yankee Stadium could be renovated....There responce was The Yankees never asked us for a renovation plan.

[curb my enthusiasm]

When I started listening to Mike and the Mad Dog along time ago I liked Francesa better....Over the years I have found Francesa's ego to be unbearable. I prfer Michael Kay. He has a great show on ESPN and allows his listeners to expressthere opinions.

Yankee Stadium could have been expanded out creating wider concourses, more food options, more bathrooms, etc. However The Yankees weren't willing to sacrifice 2 years of profits to preserve history.

In fact, HOK was asked if Yankee Stadium could be renovated....There responce was The Yankees never asked us for a renovation plan.

I agree that Michael Kay has a good show, and I like him better than Mike & the Mad Dog now. However, there's a guy named Jason Page on ESPN Radio 1410 in Connecticut who's on at the same time as Kay now, and I listen to him. Page talks a lot of Yankees, but also talks a lot about UConn basketball and football too. Since I'm a fan of all of those teams, I prefer to listen to Page now. Not to mention that 1410 comes in great in my car where I live, and I can't get 1050 at all. So I can only hear Kay on my computer.

I also agree that Yankee Stadium could have been altered to include wider concourses, more concessions, etc. But the Yankees were probably thinking, why go through a massive renovation for a second time, while the original foundation is over 80 years old? It was probably less expensive just to build a new ballpark, so I can understand their point of view.

Also, some people don't understand that you can't have an original copper frieze again. The price of copper is now so cost-prohibitive that it makes it impossible

[yankees82]

Yankee Stadium has no more room for concessions. The concourses are cramped and narrow. I don't see how they can widen the concourses. They are confined to the space within the 'original' outer walls.

[six4three]

Yeah, I don't think they could have without knocking out the outer walls. Which was what Ferrer's 97 plan advocated, adding a second concourse on to the existing outer walls, much like the Great Hall on New Yankee Stadium.

[YankeeStadium1923]

Yankee Stadium has no more room for concessions. The concourses are cramped and narrow. I don't see how they can widen the concourses. They are confined to the space within the 'original' outer walls.
The Yankees could have built an exact replica around the existing exterior wall and connected the 2 structures with walkways through the existing Stadium vents.

The old Exterior wall would now be an Interior wall....

[MarcianoNY]

. Really it's not that hard to see it's the original structure....Seriously!

I think you missed my point; I agree with you 100% in that it is the same stadium inside. Someone else was arguing the point that the outside walls are the same, when the outside has probably the least % of retainment of the old building. What I meant to say is that the new concrete on the exterior doubles the height of the old walls; its clearly the dominant feature from outside, regardless of where you see it from.

[MarcianoNY]

Yankee Stadium is just a boring sea of blue on the inside.

That's the most important part. I could give a damn whether or not we have a "playstation plaza" or whatever gimmicks other teams need to keep people's 3-year old attention spans occupied these days.

[YankeeStadium1923]

I think you missed my point; I agree with you 100% in that it is the same stadium inside. Someone else was arguing the point that the outside walls are the same, when the outside has probably the least % of retainment of the old building. What I meant to say is that the new concrete on the exterior doubles the height of the old walls; its clearly the dominant feature from outside, regardless of where you see it from.
Lets pretend we are looking at the Yankee Stadium Ticket office down the first baseline between the Stadium and the parking garage.....What do you see?

I see the original old exterior walls....vents....closed off openings with cinder blocks,etc.
Yankee stadium is so big that when you are walking right next to it you dont see much of the the 10 rows that were expanded in the Upper Deck. You do see the extension of the lower original walls.

If I dormered a cape...Would the lower portion of the house be original? The original exterior of Old Yankee Stadium was expanded upon rather than removed.

[yankees82]

The Yankees could have built an exact replica around the existing exterior wall and connected the 2 structures with walkways through the existing Stadium vents.

The old Exterior wall would now be an Interior wall....

let's be realistic now...they needed a new stadium. building outward of the old one is just impractical.

[YankeeStadium1923]

let's be realistic now...they needed a new stadium. building outward of the old one is just impractical.
Says who? Apparently you are unaware that the Yankees seized parkland from the Bronx Community to build a new Stadium....But who cares...It doesn't effect you now..Does it?

And the City's plan to restore parkland is not a fair tradeoff. They are replacing parks that are already designated as parks...Others are a mile or so from the Community. Others are artificial turf(known to have cancer causing agents) fields on top of parking garages.

Impractical? Saving millions of dollars of taxpayer money doesn't sound impractical to me.
And your probably under the impression that the Yankees are paying for ALL of the Stadium. Just another lie....But you wouldn't understand that.....Reaseach the facts and get back to me.

[David Atkatz]

Also, some people don't understand that you can't have an original copper frieze again. The price of copper is now so cost-prohibitive that it makes it impossible

Really? They can spend $1.3 Billion, but they couldn't afford a copper frieze?

The current price of copper is $8880/ton. The original frieze weighed 86,000 pounds, or 43 tons That's $381,840 for the copper. Of course, the Yankees would not have ordered the frieze today, but about two years ago, when the price of copper was less than half what it is now. They'd still have to pay for the copper to be made into the frieze, but of course, they had to pay for the raw steel to be turned into frieze as well.

Really think the Yankees couldn't afford an extra $200,000-$400,000?

[MarcianoNY]

If I dormered a cape...Would the lower portion of the house be original? The original exterior of Old Yankee Stadium was expanded upon rather than removed.

Yeah I just saw some blueprints of the renovated upper deck and I can see that you're right...for what it's worth. Interesting...

[David Atkatz]

Says who? Apparently you are unaware that the Yankees seized parkland from the Bronx Community to build a new Stadium....But who cares...It doesn't effect you now..Does it?

And the City's plan to restore parkland is not a fair tradeoff. They are replacing parks that are already designated as parks...Others are a mile or so from the Community. Others are artificial turf(known to have cancer causing agents) fields on top of parking garages.

Impractical? Saving millions of dollars of taxpayer money doesn't sound impractical to me.
And your probably under the impression that the Yankees are paying for ALL of the Stadium. Just another lie....But you wouldn't understand that.....Reaseach the facts and get back to me.

You're wasting your breath, '23.

No one here gives a **** about how the community was screwed--yet again--by the Yankees and the City.

It's kinda like the war in Iraq. Bush and his cronies never had any intention of not going to war--it was a foregone conclusion.

And George and his cronies never had any intention of saving Yankee Stadium. All of George's team owner buddies had brand new, luxury-box-filled stadia, and George was gonna have his, too.

The only Yankee tradition the Yankee organization gives a damn about is the tradition of making more money than any other franchise.

[YankeeStadium1923]

Yeah I just saw some blueprints of the renovated upper deck and I can see that you're right...for what it's worth. Interesting...
The Yankees are getting a new Stadium regardless....However, as a longtime Yankee fan who was sold on tradition the Yankees should have exhausted all possibilties of renovating before moving into a new ballpark....Not once did the Yankees show evidence from Architects or Engineers stating that Yankee Stadium could not be renovated.

The Yankees did what they thought was best for them as an organization....I disagree with there decision and see the New Yankee Stadium as a novelty for 5 years then nothing more than a HOK cookie cutter ballpark.....

The Canadians left the Montreal Forum in the mid 90's and the owner recently stated that he wish he had stayed at the Forum......Too bad you can't recreate history. Once it's gone it's gone forever....

[yankees82]

Says who? Apparently you are unaware that the Yankees seized parkland from the Bronx Community to build a new Stadium....But who cares...It doesn't effect you now..Does it?

And the City's plan to restore parkland is not a fair tradeoff. They are replacing parks that are already designated as parks...Others are a mile or so from the Community. Others are artificial turf(known to have cancer causing agents) fields on top of parking garages.

Impractical? Saving millions of dollars of taxpayer money doesn't sound impractical to me.
And your probably under the impression that the Yankees are paying for ALL of the Stadium. Just another lie....But you wouldn't understand that.....Reaseach the facts and get back to me.

you want some cheese with that whine?? cry me a river buddy. i'm there to watch the yankees, and i'd prefer to do it in a state-of-the-art stadium. 1923 YS is long gone and that was the only stadium worth saving. 1976 YS doesn't quite have the history and it's sub-par compared to today's standards.

and you can call me insensitive but i'm not here to campaign for parkland and protest carcinogenic field turf. that's someone else's fight, so spare me your BS and shove your research where the sun don't shine.

[YankeeStadium1923]

You're wasting your breath, '23.

No one here gives a **** about how the community was screwed--yet again--by the Yankees and the City.

It's kinda like the war in Iraq. Bush and his cronies never had any intention of not going to war--it was a foregone conclusion.

And George and his cronies never had any intention of saving Yankee Stadium. All of George's team owner buddies had brand new, luxury-box-filled stadia, and George was gonna have his, too.

The only Yankee tradition the Yankee organization gives a damn about is the tradition of making more money than any other franchise.
I know it's waste of time, However I just hate when misinformed individuals believe that the majority of Yankee Stadium is not original.....

Let them be happy for the New Yankee Stadium just don't use the excuse thats Yankee Stadium is not the original building.....Nothing across the street is original....But Lonn Trost says we will still have the peak through while riding the 4 train....Great...I look forward to that!

[David Atkatz]

you want some cheese with that whine?? cry me a river buddy. i'm there to watch the yankees, and i'd prefer to do it in a state-of-the-art stadium. 1923 YS is long gone and that was the only stadium worth saving. 1976 YS doesn't quite have the history and it's sub-par compared to today's standards.

and you can call me insensitive but i'm not here to campaign for parkland and protest carcinogenic field turf. that's someone else's fight, so spare me your BS and shove your research where the sun don't shine.

See what I mean, '23?

Kinda restores your faith in humanity, doesn't it? :dismay:

[YankeeStadium1923]

you want some cheese with that whine?? cry me a river buddy. i'm there to watch the yankees, and i'd prefer to do it in a state-of-the-art stadium. 1923 YS is long gone and that was the only stadium worth saving. 1976 YS doesn't quite have the history and it's sub-par compared to today's standards.

and you can call me insensitive but i'm not here to campaign for parkland and protest carcinogenic field turf. that's someone else's fight, so spare me your BS and shove your research where the sun don't shine.
Spoken like a true gentlemen.....Hope that mouth of yours doesn't land you in jail...

You must have a future in Politics....

You should care considering you will be paying for the New Stadium....

[six4three]

Yeesh.

Not exactly a shining beacon, there.

[YankeeStadium1923]

See what I mean, '23?

Kinda restores your faith in humanity, doesn't it? :dismay:
Yeah....Maybe Karma will bite him in the a$$!

[yankees82]

See what I mean, '23?

Kinda restores your faith in humanity, doesn't it? :dismay:

YAWN.

oh davey boy, i can always count on you for a laugh.

[six4three]

You're only digging the hole deeper....

[David Atkatz]

YAWN.

oh davey boy, i can always count on you for a laugh.

Glad you're amused.

I'm sure you think singing "Why Are You Gay" to anyone daring to wear a Red Sox cap in the holy bleachers is funny, too.

It must be wonderful to go through life with a permanent ****-eating grin on your face.

[yankees82]

i didn't know this was a board for humanitarians only...

face it. they need a new stadium.

and '23, its not the same stadium.

[yankees82]

It must be wonderful to go through life with a permanent ****-eating grin on your face.


you would know, buddy

[YankeeStadium1923]

i didn't know this was a board for humanitarians only...

face it. they need a new stadium.

and '23, its not the same stadium.
If you say So....Let me see....yankees82...I would guess that you were 14 in 1996 and the Yankees were begining there dynasty....The Yankees have been in the playoffs during half of your life....Who are you going to root for if they revert to the Yankee dynasty of the 1980's?

[yankees82]

I'm from the area. they're the default home team for me so i'll always root for them. i'm not a bandwagon front-runner like some others.

But here's a question, if the torre-era dynasty never happened, and the winning tradition was never restored, do people keep making a fuss over saving the old stadium? granted, the yankees' revenue situation might've been a lot different, but do you still campaign to save it as strongly as you do now?

[curb my enthusiasm]

Who cares whether most of Yankee Stadium is original or not? It's outdated! If the Roman Coliseum was so great, they would still be using that place too.

[GordonGecko]

Who cares whether most of Yankee Stadium is original or not? It's outdated! If the Roman Coliseum was so great, they would still be using that place too.

Architecturally, the current Yankee Stadium shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Roman Coliseum. There's not much architecture there left to salvage, it's way past its useful life, and the time has come to say thank you and move on.

[Chevy114]

Who cares whether most of Yankee Stadium is original or not? It's outdated! If the Roman Coliseum was so great, they would still be using that place too.

I always thought it was just poorly maintained. I mean fenway still looks great and its just as old.

[MarcianoNY]

Well, while verging on the sacrilegious, that is a pretty typical NY-area attitude towards architecture. Maybe we should just have the baseball stadium equivalent of this, which is what most of the new HOK parks remind me of:

[GordonGecko]

I always thought it was just poorly maintained. I mean fenway still looks great and its just as old.

Yeah but Fenway wasn't gutted and rebuilt like Yankee Stadium was. Ditto for Wrigley

[Chevy114]

Yeah but Fenway wasn't gutted and rebuilt like Yankee Stadium was. Ditto for Wrigley

Good point, it kind of does feel like a 70s stadium when I look at it instead of a early 1900s stadium.

[MarcianoNY]

If you look hard enough you can find spots in Fenway that look dumpy. That doesn't mean its falling apart, but there's no mistaking the fact that its old when you see it in person.

[David Atkatz]

Yeah but Fenway wasn't gutted and rebuilt like Yankee Stadium was.

No?

Why don't you compare some photos of Fenway when it opened in 1912 to the Fenway of today. Ever hear of a guy named Yawkey?

Except for the exterior brick walls, almost nothing else is original. (Including the Green Monster.)

Sound familiar, Gecko?

[six4three]

Well, all stadiums get periodic upgrades. Seating areas change, outfield walls are moved, restaurants and merchandise shops are added and expanded. Dodger Stadium's had those renovations, Yankee Stadium had plenty of them before the 1974 renovations, and Fenway's no different in that respect (Green Monster seats, anyone?). Over time, enough is replaced that there might not be anything from the original, but the overall feel is maintained.

I think the real distinction is that such drips-and-drabs renovations don't radically change the character of a ballpark in one fell swoop. They can add to it (or detract from it) in small ways, but what the city did with Yankee Stadium is singular in baseball.

It's like the renovation of Lambeau Field, a mostly-new building using the existing superstructure. Except that Lambeau Field mainained essentially the same game experience from the seats - they resisted the temptation to put in an upper deck - and "Yankee Stadium II" didn't.

[Chevy114]

No?

Why don't you compare some photos of Fenway when it opened in 1912 to the Fenway of today. Ever hear of a guy named Yawkey?

Except for the exterior brick walls, almost nothing else is original. (Including the Green Monster.)

Sound familiar, Gecko?

I thought meant like how fenway and wrigley both have support beams and once the monster was put in, they have only made additions, not subtractions then additions.

[David Atkatz]

I thought meant like how fenway and wrigley both have support beams and once the monster was put in, they have only made additions, not subtractions then additions.

Wrong again.

Go check Fenway's history.

[six4three]

Yeah - Andrew Clem's site has a great review of Fenway's history (http://www.andrewclem.com/Baseball/FenwayPark.html#diag).

You can see how radically it's been changed since 1912, but they kept the same essential spirit in all the renovations. That's what sets the current Yankee Stadium apart from parks like Dodger Stadium and Fenway.

[YankeeStadium1923]

"Except that Lambeau Field mainained essentially the same game experience from the seats - they resisted the temptation to put in an upper deck - and "Yankee Stadium II" didn't.'

Trying to understand your point my friend.....When you are seating anywhere in Yankee Stadium besides the last 10 rows of the Upper Deck or the field level seats(this area was removed to increase the slope of the stands creating a better view)you are sitting in the exact same Stadium....So what's your point?

[Swoboda4]

"Its original Osborne detailing was removed. This is ultimately why YS, in its current form, could not qualify as an architectural landmark."

Still spreading lies! Try spreading facts.....Original Osborne detailing enclosed.
Elect MR. Met to the Hall of Fame!

A few years ago the City determined that Yankee Stadium was drastically changed and could not be considered for Landmark status. This was orchestrated because the New Yankee Stadium was in it's planning stages and the land that occupies the current Yankee Stadium is needed to comply with the Community Benefits agreement to replace parkland lost to build the New Stadium.

Any building in NYC that is 30 years or older can qualify for Landmark status....
So the renovated Yankee Stadium was eligible for Landmark status on April 15, 2006.
So if NYC does not recognise Yankee Stadium a landmark because the original building was renovated......Why wasn't the renovated version condsidered eligible?

http://members.aol.com/bridge1883/StadiumMerge


First of all, watch your language, and stop hyperventilating. No reason to throw around the word "lies". I am not lying. You may have a point about a deal being "orchestrated", but you don't understand Landmarks law. To repeat, I am a former Chairman of a local Landmarks Preservation Board (not NYC), so I know what I am talking about. Re-read my post. I am looking at YS as pure architectural specimen. One of the first tests a Board uses is the simple question of whether or not the original builders would substantially recognize the structure. It can be objectively proven that YS was drastically changed in 1973-4. Of course SOME characteristics remain, but not enough.

Your point, "Any building in NYC that is 30 years or older can qualify for Landmark status....So the renovated Yankee Stadium was eligible for Landmark status on April 15, 2006." is partially correct. It is eligible to submit an application for landmarking. Every building that applies is not automatically granted landmark status. Reality is very FEW applications are granted landmark status. It is designed to be stringent. So sure, YS could APPLY for landmarking, but it could not GET landmarked, because an insufficient percentage of the building is original. And that is not subject to emotional interpretation. As for the renovated 1975 stadium being landmarked, go ahead and apply. You'll need to argue that it is a fine example of 1970's architecture. As I have said on other posts, that would honestly be a fascinating application to write, but again, every application faces an uphill battle before being landmarked.

And what's with the "Mr. Met" comment? Did I bring up any Met/Yankee crap?
I think I am being pretty civil and courteous. I am actually showing an appreciation for Yankee history. Ease up, killer.

[YankeeStadium1923]

Architecturally, the current Yankee Stadium shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Roman Coliseum. There's not much architecture there left to salvage, it's way past its useful life, and the time has come to say thank you and move on.
I thought a picture was worth a thousand words...With you a picture could be worth infinity and you still wouldn't get it!

I bet I could add a 0 to a $5 dollar bill and pass it on to you as a $50!

[David Atkatz]

One of the first tests a Board uses is the simple question of whether or not the original builders would substantially recognize the structure.

They would have to be blind not to "substantially recognize the structure."

Yankee Stadium was not landmarked for political reasons, not architectural ones.

(We're talking about New York City.)

[six4three]

There isn't a municipality in this nation that doesn't landmark on political grounds as much as (if not more than) architectural ones.

[Swoboda4]

They would have to be blind not to "substantially recognize the structure."

Yankee Stadium was not landmarked for political reasons, not architectural ones.

(We're talking about New York City.)

You are probably right. I just don't like being called a liar. And that "substantially recognize" thing is just one of many hurdles, so again, you have a point. But once you start picking apart applications it doesn't take much to kill it. Especially if there aren't proponents on the board to help it along. And they were all, ahem, "influenced" shall we say, against landmarking the place. '23 also asked about a dormered cape. Automatically disqualified.

[GordonGecko]

I thought a picture was worth a thousand words...With you a picture could be worth infinity and you still wouldn't get it!

I bet I could add a 0 to a $5 dollar bill and pass it on to you as a $50!

Man you sure do like to cling to those two pictures like it's your baby blanket. Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?

[yankees82]

Man you sure do like to cling to those two pictures like it's your baby blanket. Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?

He wants to stick to his theory that since they left most of the outerwalls up, that it's still the same structure, not to be mistaken for anything else. Forget the fact that upperdeck and upper concourse was drastically changed, roof/frieze was removed, columns were removed, bleachers completely transformed and downsized, and field dimensions were drastically changed. Don't forget about the 2 escalator towers at gate 4 and 6.

But hey the outer facade is still there!! Landmark the place!!

[David Atkatz]

He wants to stick to his theory that since they left most of the outerwalls up, that it's still the same structure, not to be mistaken for anything else. Forget the fact that upperdeck and upper concourse was drastically changed, roof/frieze was removed, columns were removed, bleachers completely transformed and downsized, and field dimensions were drastically changed. Don't forget about the 2 escalator towers at gate 4 and 6.

But hey the outer facade is still there!! Landmark the place!!

Well, let's see. Where to begin?

The upper deck was not "drastically changed." Ten rows were added, the old vomitoria closed off, and new ones opened. Otherwise, it is all original.

The upper concourse was not drastically changed. A new upper concourse was added. The original concourse was covered, but it still exists, and could be reopened.

The bleachers were not completely transformed; it's the same, original to 1936 concrete bleacher structure. The original bleachers, including Ruthville, were torn down and replaced with the current structure in 1936. That's "completely transformed."

The field dimensions have been changed over the course of the last 32 years. It is a trivial matter to restore the field to its "old" dimensions.

How hard do you suppose it would be to remove those escalator towers, and restore Gates 4 and 6? (Gate 2, of course, still exists in virtually its original form.)

So, hey, most of the post 1923-1973 Stadium still exists. So lets tear it down!

[yankees82]

The upper deck was not "drastically changed." Ten rows were added, the old vomitoria closed off, and new ones opened. Otherwise, it is all original.

The upper concourse was not drastically changed. A new upper concourse was added. The original concourse was covered, but it still exists, and could be reopened.


no more roof. no more frieze. no more columns. closed off original openings. created new openings. added 10 more rows. whole new concourse.

not drastically changed huh? ohhhhhkay. whatever you say, davey boy.

[David Atkatz]

no more roof. no more frieze. no more columns. closed off original openings. created new openings. added 10 more rows. whole new concourse.

not drastically changed huh? ohhhhhkay. whatever you say, davey boy.

No more roof, no more frieze, no more columns. All else is original, or can easily be returned to original because the original material is still there.

But, hey, you know it's nothing like the "old" Stadium.

BTW, were you ever at the pre-renovation Stadium?

[yankees82]

No more roof, no more frieze, no more columns. All else is original, or can easily be returned to original because the original material is still there.

But, hey, you know it's nothing like the "old" Stadium.

BTW, were you ever at the pre-renovation Stadium?

Where's the roof, frieze, and columns? in their super secret storage room? in your basement?

they can easily be restored? define easily.

[David Atkatz]

Where's the roof, frieze, and columns? in their super secret storage room? in your basement?

they can easily be restored? define easily.

I'll take that as a "no," you were never there. I didn't think so.

Do you know what the phrase "all else" means?

I'll try to be even more pedantic for you.

All else besides the roof, frieze and columns is original, or can easily be returned to original...

[Yoda]

Pros: Gleaming new stadium that looks great

Cons: eleventy billion threads on Yankee Stadium

[GordonGecko]

Pros: Gleaming new stadium that looks great

Cons: eleventy billion threads on Yankee Stadium

Eleventy, I like that word. Master Yoda has done it again!

[chips]

Master Yoda is indeed a wise man.

Hands off though, he's mine.

[yankees82]

I'll take that as a "no," you were never there. I didn't think so.

Do you know what the phrase "all else" means?

I'll try to be even more pedantic for you.

All else besides the roof, frieze and columns is original, or can easily be returned to original...

what's the point?? demolish the the current upperdeck concourse and underneath they'll find the old concourse. close up the current portals and open up the old ones with the catwalks. knock 10 rows off the top. yea that'll really restore the stadium to its old glory.

what are we really arguing over now? i'm saying that the upperdeck has changed drastically. i don't need to have been there to know that. you're arguing that the old concourse is still there underneath the new one. WHO CARES?? the upper deck is still drastically different from the old one. the signature frieze and roof is gone. who the hell cares if they can dig the old concourse out??

[David Atkatz]

what's the point?? demolish the the current upperdeck concourse and underneath they'll find the old concourse. close up the current portals and open up the old ones with the catwalks. knock 10 rows off the top. yea that'll really restore the stadium to its old glory.

what are we really arguing over now? i'm saying that the upperdeck has changed drastically. i don't need to have been there to know that. you're arguing that the old concourse is still there underneath the new one. WHO CARES?? the upper deck is still drastically different from the old one. the signature frieze and roof is gone. who the hell cares if they can dig the old concourse out??

I know what you're saying.

But what you are saying is abject nonsense.

The upper deck is almost precisely as it was before. Same pitch, same distance from the field, same views, same steep concrete stairs.. (That's because the "new" upper deck is the "old" upper deck, with ten rows added on.)

Perhaps if you had ever sat in the "old" upper deck, you'd know the "new" one is identical in every meaningful way.

But, hey, you know best.

[Yoda]

Master Yoda is indeed a wise man.

Hands off though, he's mine.

:noidea:confused::hp:hide:

[yankees82]

Perhaps if you had ever sat in the "old" upper deck, you'd know the "new" one is identical in every meaningful way.

But, hey, you know best.


ahh what would i do without the trademark davey atkatz witty, sarcastic line at the end of all your posts. heck i even started ending my posts like you.

it's NOT the same. yea same concrete, same steep angle blah blah blah. but you know why it's not the same?? because everything else in yankee stadium is different. and if you can't figure out what i mean by that, then there's no point in arguing.

[David Atkatz]

How would you know whether it's the same or not?

You have nothing to compare it to!

"The upper deck is not the same because everything else is different."

That makes sense.

As many others have tried to make clear, everything else is not different.

Some things are.

Most things aren't.

(And at least my trademark is wit.

Yours seems to be a refusal to face reality.)

[yankees82]

whatever you say chief.

i'm done BS'ing with you. i'm goin to the yankee game.

[David Atkatz]

Enjoy.

You won't have many more chances to watch a game at a venue where Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle all played.

(Unless you go to Fenway)

[GordonGecko]

Enjoy.

You won't have many more chances to watch a game at a venue where Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle all played.

(Unless you go to Fenway)

Ruth and Gehrig never played in "renovated" (rebuilt) Yankee Stadium II, so there aren't any chances left anyways.

[David Atkatz]

Ruth and Gehrig never played in renovated Yankee Stadium II, so there aren't any chances left anyways.

What nonsense. Gecko. Just a few weeks ago there was an article in the Times about the "unseen Yankee Stadium." It, for example, described, and pictured the storeroom under the stands where Gehrig used to go to get away after he had benched himself. Same room, still there. Like most of the other rooms.

My apartment in the city has been renovated. I guess the original 1923 building (just a coincidence, it was built in 1923) no longer exists.

According to you, Lincoln never slept at the renovated White House--which, unlike Yankee Stadium, was completely gutted in the 1950s and a completely new interior built. Only the outside walls are original. Absolutely nothing else.

Should we tear it down?

[GordonGecko]

What nonsense. Gecko. Just a few weeks ago there was an article in the Times about the "unseen Yankee Stadium." It, for example, described, and pictured the storeroom under the stands where Gehrig used to go to get away after he had benched himself. Same room, still there. Like most of the other rooms.

My apartment in the city has been renovated. I guess the original 1923 building (just a coincidence, it was built in 1923) no longer exists.

According to you, Lincoln never slept at the renovated White House--which, unlike Yankee Stadium, was completely gutted in the 1950s and a completely new interior built. Only the outside walls are original. Absolutely nothing else.

Should we tear it down?

Why do you assume I'd say Lincoln slept at the current White House, he clearly didn't based on the facts you just presented. But unlike the current Yankee Stadium, the current White House isn't a 70's design and would deserve to be saved.

There's some structure left over from the original Penn Station within the current Penn Station tunnels, are you saying that's the same too?

Yankee stadium wasn't renovated, it was torn apart and rebuilt - minus the underlying steel and concrete.

[YankeeFanBx]

Yankee Stadium , as we have know it, will not be host to any more baseball games after this season. If you were there and sat in the stadium before it's renovation or have only known the confines of the b____d stadium (to some) masquerading as Yankee Stadium, it's gone.
My thoughts are these (who really cares but me), Ruth ,Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris , Jackson, Jeter, Cobb, Robinson, Kaline, Aaron, Mays, Seaver, Paige, Gibson and all the thousands of others who have played there, have all called it Yankee Stadium. No matter the roof, frieze, concourse, flag poles, scoreboard, turf, walls, or whatever was there or gone when they played there, you can bet a dollar to a doughnut, they knew they had played at Yankee Stadium.
I'm pretty sure Ruth would know where he was if he could drive there today, 161st.Street and River Ave.
He knocked a few out of there and I'm sure he knocked a few back there too.
I remember the old and the renovated, changed for sure, but always Yankee Stadium.
I guess I'm just pro Yankee Stadium, however much changed or wherever it's located.:twocents:

[David Atkatz]

Why do you assume I'd say Lincoln slept at the current White House, he clearly didn't based on the facts you just presented. But unlike the current Yankee Stadium, the current White House isn't a 70's design and would deserve to be saved.

There's some structure left over from the original Penn Station within the current Penn Station tunnels, are you saying that's the same too?

Yankee stadium wasn't renovated, it was torn apart and rebuilt - minus the underlying steel and concrete.

You basically don't know what you're talking about.

Penn Station was completely demolished Nothing remaons but a small piece of men's room floor and a few glass bricks. Hardly a comparison.

How can the Stadium be a "70s design" when 80% or so of the original Stadium remains--including the vast majority of the architectural detail?

What don't you understand about the fact that the corridors are the same, the rooms, the ramps, the concourses? (Yes--there's a new one, but the old one is still there.)

They added ten rows to the upper deck, removed the roof, the frieze, the columns, and the architectural detail on Gates 4 and 6. How hard would that have been to restore?

Not very.

Everything else remains.

It was not torn down and rebuilt.

It was not gutted and rebuilt.

I'm sure you're another one who's never been to the pre-renovation Stadium, and thus has no basis for making a comparison.

[YankeeStadium1923]

Man you sure do like to cling to those two pictures like it's your baby blanket. Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?
I certainly do cling on to the two comparison pictures I posted 5 times...and you still can't see it's the same structure.

The only thing that makes me all warm and fuzzy is that photo I see of Michael Douglas.

[DM23MVP]

I don't understand why so many people hate the new stadium. I've been a Yankees fan for over 30 years, I've been a full season ticket holder since 1992, I've been to hundreds of games at the current stadium, and I think a new ballpark is long overdue. As much as I love the current place, it's got to rank as one of the worst places in MLB to attend a game, the seating is cramped, getting around the concourses is a nightmare, and the sightlines aren't the greatest, especially if you sit in the tier. From my current seats, which is behind homeplate in the lower part of the tier, I've never seen a play in the left field corner.

The new stadium is a work of art, absolutely stunning, I don't understand all the people who get angry that it's not an exact replica of the original, it's not intended to be, it's an interpretation of the original. It's meant to have the same general look, but it looks so much better. I can't wait until Opening Day 2009 when I park my butt in my brand new seat at the most state of the art facility in MLB.

I'll miss the old stadium for sentimental reasons, but I'm going to love going to the new stadium for many years to come.

[YankeeStadium1923]

He wants to stick to his theory that since they left most of the outerwalls up, that it's still the same structure, not to be mistaken for anything else. Forget the fact that upperdeck and upper concourse was drastically changed, roof/frieze was removed, columns were removed, bleachers completely transformed and downsized, and field dimensions were drastically changed. Don't forget about the 2 escalator towers at gate 4 and 6.

But hey the outer facade is still there!! Landmark the place!!
Some Yankee fan you are.....The renovated Stadium has just as much history as the Pre-renovated Stadium.....So regardless if you feel it's original or not....It's a part of Yankee legacy......

[GordonGecko]

You basically don't know what you're talking about.

Penn Station was completely demolished Nothing remaons but a small piece of men's room floor and a few glass bricks. Hardly a comparison.

How can the Stadium be a "70s design" when 80% or so of the original Stadium remains--including the vast majority of the architectural detail?

What don't you understand about the fact that the corridors are the same, the rooms, the ramps, the concourses? (Yes--there's a new one, but the old one is still there.)

They added ten rows to the upper deck, removed the roof, the frieze, the columns, and the architectural detail on Gates 4 and 6. How hard would that have been to restore?

Not very.

Everything else remains.

It was not torn down and rebuilt.

It was not gutted and rebuilt.

I'm sure you're another one who's never been to the pre-renovation Stadium, and thus has no basis for making a comparison.

There's not much point responding to your posts any more, you're stuck in the past. The place was gutted, the original Yankee Stadium is gone forever

[curb my enthusiasm]

What don't you understand about the fact that the corridors are the same, the rooms, the ramps, the concourses? (Yes--there's a new one, but the old one is still there.)

You can keep the old corridors, ramps, and concourses. They suck. I'll be enjoying myself in the new ballpark.:cap:

[curb my enthusiasm]

Architecturally, the current Yankee Stadium shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Roman Coliseum. There's not much architecture there left to salvage, it's way past its useful life, and the time has come to say thank you and move on.

When you say that it's way past its useful life, you ARE talking about the current Yankee Stadium, correct?:homeplate:

[GordonGecko]

When you say that it's way past its useful life, you ARE talking about the current Yankee Stadium, correct?:homeplate:

Indeed, thanks for the memories. Rebuilt Yankee Stadium II served its purpose, so lets close it out in style and go nuts in '09 at the new place

[curb my enthusiasm]

I don't understand why so many people hate the new stadium. I've been a Yankees fan for over 30 years, I've been a full season ticket holder since 1992, I've been to hundreds of games at the current stadium, and I think a new ballpark is long overdue. As much as I love the current place, it's got to rank as one of the worst places in MLB to attend a game, the seating is cramped, getting around the concourses is a nightmare, and the sightlines aren't the greatest, especially if you sit in the tier. From my current seats, which is behind homeplate in the lower part of the tier, I've never seen a play in the left field corner.

The new stadium is a work of art, absolutely stunning, I don't understand all the people who get angry that it's not an exact replica of the original, it's not intended to be, it's an interpretation of the original. It's meant to have the same general look, but it looks so much better. I can't wait until Opening Day 2009 when I park my butt in my brand new seat at the most state of the art facility in MLB.

I'll miss the old stadium for sentimental reasons, but I'm going to love going to the new stadium for many years to come.

I agree 100%.

[curb my enthusiasm]

Indeed, thanks for the memories. Rebuilt Yankee Stadium II served its purpose, so lets close it out in style and go nuts in '09 at the new place

I'd like to see them close out Yankee Stadium in the winter with the Rangers crushing the Islanders.

[MarcianoNY]

I'd like to see them close out Yankee Stadium in the winter with the Rangers crushing the Islanders.

I don't know, its gotta be a Yankee game. They're gonna have all kinds of ceremonies, and then to have a hockey game after that? That'll be very anti-climatic. As far as the Rangers game goes, they should just wait and have it in the new stadium

[YankeeStadium1923]

First of all, watch your language, and stop hyperventilating. No reason to throw around the word "lies". I am not lying. You may have a point about a deal being "orchestrated", but you don't understand Landmarks law. To repeat, I am a former Chairman of a local Landmarks Preservation Board (not NYC), so I know what I am talking about. Re-read my post. I am looking at YS as pure architectural specimen. One of the first tests a Board uses is the simple question of whether or not the original builders would substantially recognize the structure. It can be objectively proven that YS was drastically changed in 1973-4. Of course SOME characteristics remain, but not enough.

Your point, "Any building in NYC that is 30 years or older can qualify for Landmark status....So the renovated Yankee Stadium was eligible for Landmark status on April 15, 2006." is partially correct. It is eligible to submit an application for landmarking. Every building that applies is not automatically granted landmark status. Reality is very FEW applications are granted landmark status. It is designed to be stringent. So sure, YS could APPLY for landmarking, but it could not GET landmarked, because an insufficient percentage of the building is original. And that is not subject to emotional interpretation. As for the renovated 1975 stadium being landmarked, go ahead and apply. You'll need to argue that it is a fine example of 1970's architecture. As I have said on other posts, that would honestly be a fascinating application to write, but again, every application faces an uphill battle before being landmarked.

And what's with the "Mr. Met" comment? Did I bring up any Met/Yankee crap?
I think I am being pretty civil and courteous. I am actually showing an appreciation for Yankee history. Ease up, killer.
You mentioned that "The original Osborne detailing was removed"....When in fact it is still there today.

As for Landmark applications you mention "every application faces an uphill battle before being landmarked." It took Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis 30 years to save Grand Central Station....And I would guess she had more Political prowess they I do....

Do you really think that NYC was going to grant Landmark status to Yankee Stadium when the land Yankee Stadium currently occupies is needed for a conversion to parkland to comply with the Community Benefits Agreement. This whole process began when Randy Levine was Deputy Mayor under Guilianni. He then negotiated the collective bargaining agreement with MLB which allows teams to deduct the costs of building a new stadium from revenue sharing...So MLB will be subsidizing the new ballpark. He then became the President of the New York Yankees. A orchestrated 10 year plan to get the Yankees a new Ballpark.....

So do you really think that Randy Levine and his croinies was going to allow Landmark status to get in the way of building a new palace for Steinbrenner.....

[curb my enthusiasm]

I don't know, its gotta be a Yankee game. They're gonna have all kinds of ceremonies, and then to have a hockey game after that? That'll be very anti-climatic. As far as the Rangers game goes, they should just wait and have it in the new stadium


What if the Yankees are out of the playoff picture by the time they get to the last regular season home game versus the Orioles, and lose? That would be very anti-climactic too. With Posada and ARod on the DL, and Hughes and Kennedy looking terrible, that's a possibility.

[YankeeStadium1923]

What if the Yankees are out of the playoff picture by the time they get to the last regular season home game versus the Orioles, and lose? That would be very anti-climactic too. With Posada and ARod on the DL, and Hughes and Kennedy looking terrible, that's a possibility.
It may be a long Summer.....From the interview with Cashman last night on the Post game, Hughes may be removed from the starting rotation....And now Boomer is talking about how the Yankees are saying Hughes doesn't like pitching at night....Always a load of excuses with the Yankess.....He had no problem last year and the end of the season and in the Playoffs...Night and all....

[Myankee4life]

Im going to show my lack of knowledge of ballparks but what the hey.

What is the 2nd row(under the upper deck and above the lower deck) pictured below? The concourse or the mezzanine?

Also what was done to the lower deck of old YS?

What was done to the 2nd row (middle deck)?

[Swoboda4]

You mentioned that "The original Osborne detailing was removed"....When in fact it is still there today.

As for Landmark applications you mention "every application faces an uphill battle before being landmarked." It took Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis 30 years to save Grand Central Station....And I would guess she had more Political prowess they I do....

Do you really think that NYC was going to grant Landmark status to Yankee Stadium when the land Yankee Stadium currently occupies is needed for a conversion to parkland to comply with the Community Benefits Agreement. This whole process began when Randy Levine was Deputy Mayor under Guilianni. He then negotiated the collective bargaining agreement with MLB which allows teams to deduct the costs of building a new stadium from revenue sharing...So MLB will be subsidizing the new ballpark. He then became the President of the New York Yankees. A orchestrated 10 year plan to get the Yankees a new Ballpark.....

So do you really think that Randy Levine and his croinies was going to allow Landmark status to get in the way of building a new palace for Steinbrenner.....

"You mentioned that "The original Osborne detailing was removed"....When in fact it is still there today."

ME: You are correct. To an extent. The exterior walls are original, as you correctly point out in your picture. The problems begin when you go to the gates. Those originals are gone, replaced with the spiral ramps/escalator banks. Then you have the removal of not only the frieze, but the far more interesting (to me) elaborate copper detailing at the ends of the upper deck.

Of course the deck was stacked against landmarking. I'm just making my points from a pure architectural review.

[DM23MVP]

Im going to show my lack of knowledge of ballparks but what the hey.

What is the 2nd row(under the upper deck and above the lower deck) pictured below? The concourse or the mezzanine?

Also what was done to the lower deck of old YS?

What was done to the 2nd row (middle deck)?

The second deck is the mezzanine, which for the most part still exists in the current stadium although a large portion of it is now the press box and luxury suites, including the owner's box.

[Yankees73]

You are probably right. I just don't like being called a liar. And that "substantially recognize" thing is just one of many hurdles, so again, you have a point. But once you start picking apart applications it doesn't take much to kill it. Especially if there aren't proponents on the board to help it along. And they were all, ahem, "influenced" shall we say, against landmarking the place. '23 also asked about a dormered cape. Automatically disqualified.lets be realistic, the renovated stadium looks like an urban renewal piece of crap. I've been to the original Stadium and the renovation gave the place no justice. The new stadium actually pays homage and respect to what was once there. Perry Green, the architect who wrote up the plans did not take any historical account into the rebuild, Also, if it wasn't for cary grant convincing Steinbrenner on bringing back some form of the frieze, you wouldn't have had that either.

[RutgersWhiteSoxFan]

Couldn't agree more '73.

The renovated YS is nothing more than a homage to crappy '70s architecture.

The concourses are dark, dirty and cramped. The scoreboard hasn't changed since '76.

I sat in the bleachers 2 years ago and couldn't believe how outdated that area is.

Lastly, my good friend is an accountant for the Yankee organization. He has said numerous times that the fans should see "behind the scenes" to see how bad the current stadium is.

'09 can't come soon enough.

[Manhattan]

Couldn't agree more '73.

The renovated YS is nothing more than a homage to crappy '70s architecture.

The concourses are dark, dirty and cramped. The scoreboard hasn't changed since '76.

I sat in the bleachers 2 years ago and couldn't believe how outdated that area is.

Lastly, my good friend is an accountant for the Yankee organization. He has said numerous times that the fans should see "behind the scenes" to see how bad the current stadium is.

'09 can't come soon enough. I will get Yankees tickets to a Yankees home at New Yankee Stadium. And I will take a tour of New Yankee Stadium.

[nymdan]

A few people have mentioned the old upper concourse, and I believe somebody mentioned it's actually visible from some spots. Where is it visible from?

[kobathecat]

They would have to be blind not to "substantially recognize the structure."

Yankee Stadium was not landmarked for political reasons, not architectural ones.

(We're talking about New York City.)

They certainly could have landmarked the current Yankee Stadium, but that does not mean the Yankees had to remain there, and that is the problem. The City of New York owns Yankee Stadium, and the Yankees lease it. The Yankees could haven then turned around, and built Yankee Stadium II anywhere, including the Meadowlands (!!!) and the city would have been left with a tenant-less structure they could not then do anything to either to attract a new tenant or tear down!

[Gehrig27]

A few people have mentioned the old upper concourse, and I believe somebody mentioned it's actually visible from some spots. Where is it visible from?

If your lucky enough to see an employee open up whatever door leads to it, you can see the original concourse and catwalks/steel beams of the original upperdeck; currently the upper deck is hollow and used as a storage area.

[Yoda]

If your lucky enough to see an employee open up whatever door leads to it, you can see the original concourse and catwalks/steel beams of the original upperdeck; currently the upper deck is hollow and used as a storage area.

That's interesting.

Why did they leave it there? Why not knock that down and make a wide concourse?



If they answer is in this thread just link me I guess, too many pages to flip through.


It'd be cool to see that old concourse though... It'd be like that show about secret passages on the history channel.

[nymdan]

If your lucky enough to see an employee open up whatever door leads to it, you can see the original concourse and catwalks/steel beams of the original upperdeck; currently the upper deck is hollow and used as a storage area.

Where are these doors?

[Yoda]

nymdan and I are going to burst through these doors to find the Yankee Gold
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/nst/blogs/fillips/images/Raiders%20of%20the%20Lost%20Ark.bmp

[Gehrig27]

Where are these doors?

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58009&page=10

cgcoyne2 may have found it, check out post #249

[MarcianoNY]

[QUOTE=RutgersWhiteSoxFan;1180048]Lastly, my good friend is an accountant for the Yankee organization. He has said numerous times that the fans should see "behind the scenes" to see how bad the current stadium is.[QUOTE]

What is that supposed to mean, that the players don't have big screen plasma TVs in their lockers? Look, basically I agree that the concourses in the new stadium will be much improved, but we don't go to games for the concourses. Some of us don't leave in the eighth inning to beat traffic. We go for the game. I think there are pros and cons to the new stadium (most of which, to be fair, will have to be seen before being judged), strictly from a "game experience" perspective; sightlines, proximity of the average seat to the field, etc. As I've said before, I could give a damn if we have a "playstation 3 plaza" or automatic soap dispensers in the bathrooms or whatever else other franchises need to get fans in the ballpark. I'm sure Fenway and Wrigley are "bad" for mostly the same reasons: not enough luxury space appointments for business bigshots to entertain clients; and not enough "amenities" for the players.

[Yankees73]

A few people have mentioned the old upper concourse, and I believe somebody mentioned it's actually visible from some spots. Where is it visible from? Ther was a catwalk that led you the upper deck seats. I remember as a kid that you could see the mezzanine level and part of the field. And you know, thinking back on those days, I enjoyed the team and the whole stadium experience more than now! The place was absolutely beautiful even at 50 years old. Look at Yankee Stadium 3D model by Kaplanski and it gives a real clear experience of what was a long time ago.

[YankeeStadium1923]

Where are these doors?
You can also find a door while walking the leftfield escalator ramps(seperating the Stadium and the Bleachers) between the Loge Level and the Upper Deck concourse. Last year I was exiting the Stadium and the door was open and a cop was standing in front of the door. I knew this lead to the old upper deck concourse and catwalks. I wanted to ask the cop if I could look in but I'm sure the cop would have told me to keep moving.....

[Myankee4life]

So the Mezzanine and the lower deck are virtually the same circa 1970?

[YankeeStadium1923]

So the Mezzanine and the lower deck are virtually the same circa 1970?
Yes....However, the field box seats are not original. The walkway in the lower deck seats seperate the original and the new......And the last 10 rows of the Upper deck is not original>

[YankeesFan]

Yes....However, the field box seats are not original. The walkway in the lower deck seats seperate the original and the new......And the last 10 rows of the Upper deck is not original>

Is the concourse under the box seats original? From photos of the old stadium, the runways to the box seats look to be much lower and closer to the field.

Now the runways are behind the walkway in the seating area. In the old stadium they were well in front of the walkway.

[Gehrig27]

Is the concourse under the box seats original? From photos of the old stadium, the runways to the box seats look to be much lower and closer to the field.

Now the runways are behind the walkway in the seating area. In the old stadium they were well in front of the walkway.

The field was also lowered about 6ft, so that also affected the distance between the field and the tunnels and the amount of rows in between.

[cgcoyne2]

I don't know, its gotta be a Yankee game. They're gonna have all kinds of ceremonies, and then to have a hockey game after that? That'll be very anti-climatic. As far as the Rangers game goes, they should just wait and have it in the new stadium

I didn't think of that but I agree.

Lets start a new tradition with hockey at the New Yankee Stadium and save the memories for the Old Yankee Stadium.

I do like the idea of 1 last NY Giants football game there though.

[SparkyL]

There have been a lot of pro/con discussions again on the NYS construction thread that was supposed to be discussed here, so I am bumping this back up.

[Transic]

I think a big CON for NYS is that there is a risk that the atmophere would be more like a library than a stadium with the high-priced seating. ;)

Anyway, from reading the comments on the renovated version of the Stadium, I think one can draw the conclusion that there would be enough support for a NEW stadium, at least as an idea. The major difference is whether to rebuild it on the same spot or move to a new site. Especially, if enough people believe that the renovated Stadium is another stadium resting on the spot of an older stadium, then logically one can conclude that gutting the place and upgrading it would be viewed by the same people as the same as building a new one.

So with that in mind, I thought that they should've torn it down to the ground and build it on the same spot. I still believe that it was the best of all possible options. To make it bigger, you would have to not only tear down the current Stadium but that triangular parking garage that doesn't get used except during baseball games. No one would cry over tearing down that. That would result in more than enough space for a massive new Yankee Stadium, including bringing back "Death Valley". Any extra space left over would be used to create a "Party Area" that fans would gravitate to when the game's too slow.

With the new Metro-North station and the rising gas prices, someone back then should've had the foresight to conclude that it would not be prudent to build all those extra parking spaces. Just renovate and expand the existing parking spaces available but then encourage more people to take mass transit by expanding service, by convincing the Yankees to help pay for it, since it would be to their benefit to have more people come by trains and buses.

A huge opportunity missed.

[mrakbaseball]

Cons of NYS
Nearly symmetrical dimensions. At the very least NYS could have resurrected Yankee Stadium's '76-84 dimensions. The exterior isn't as elaborate and detailed as old and current Yankee Stadium. It's main reason for being is luxury suites. The new frieze isn't as detailed as the old one or the current one above the bleachers. It looks too much like U.S Cellular. The exterior of the upper deck doesn't match the rest of the exterior. $1.3 billion. cost. No history. Replaces the most historic stadium in America.

Pros of NYS
New and much more spacious. Not in NJ.

[tugger]

Each stadium is/was of its time. By 73, original YS's time had past. Today, renovated YS's time has past. New YS - despite a few superficial nods to the past - is all about now, as it should be.

[Wall-E]

Cons of NYS
Nearly symmetrical dimensions. At the very least NYS could have resurrected Yankee Stadium's '76-84 dimensions. The exterior isn't as elaborate and detailed as old and current Yankee Stadium. It's main reason for being is luxury suites. The new frieze isn't as detailed as the old one or the current one above the bleachers. It looks too much like U.S Cellular. The exterior of the upper deck doesn't match the rest of the exterior. $1.3 billion. cost. No history. Replaces the most historic stadium in America.

Pros of NYS
New and much more spacious. Not in NJ.

The dimensions are built for A-Rods chase to 769 (amirite?) home runs. I would much rather see him break the record then have those quirky dimensions of old. The exterior isn't as elaborate; but it's downright beautiful. Obviously you haven't seen it in person, as it's overwhelming and it is easily the one feature that changed most of the negative opinions of NYS on these boards (it did for me). The gold lettering is astounding, and it's the best use of limestone in a ballpark thus far. The new frieze isn't as detailed, but it goes much better with the New Stadium's design then the old one would. Plus the frieze has newer, modern sense of beauty and is just as prominent as the frieze of old. It looks nothing like US Cellular Field except for the outfield; which is 10x as improved as US Cellular Fields: better restaurant, better TV, and better looking sign/walkway in the back. Only thing bad is the seat obstructions, which will be removed by the end of next season. The exterior of the upper deck looks fine: granted, it looks a bit off from skyviews but guess what: you can't see it's problems from the ground level or even the Deegan. It actually looks great with the white slits and the frieze peaking through.

1.3 billion cost: yeah. Wait to the tax release comes out for that so we can see how much we actually paid. If its anything around 300,000 mill don't be too upset since that's not far from the norm. The rest isn't your money.

Honestly, that post seems like something from 8 months ago. I made the exact same complaints then. But now the stadium is nearing completion and it's obviously a jewel.