Tweak Or Blow Up ?, Too Early or Hopeless ?

[whoisonit]

The New York Mets Are A Seriously Flawed Team ... Or Are They ?.

Flawed in the personel department, seemingly flawed in the personality departmant.

-Is it too early in the season to begin to voice concerns over the direction of this team, they'll be fine ?
or
-Must fans accept the fact that the team as presently constituted can not dominate and will not win anything of consequense ? Thus we should just be happy they will be, basically, no more than a competative team ?

Does the 2008 Met team need some minor tweaking here & there, just like any other great team, it's not a big deal ?
or
Does this team need major, dramatic, headline grabbing, changes in both key personel and multiple personel ?

[whoisonit]

Worry, the team is hopelessly mediocre and flawed. Big & multiple changes must be made now.

- Delgado must be released. This single move, on it's own, may have more of an impact on the club than even a managerial change. Delgado is the acknowledged leader in the clubhouse. His lethargic style has infected the team. As a key lineup bat, whether at 5 or 6, he is dead wood, affecting how the others are pitched to. His fielding was never his strong point, now it has deteriorated to the point of being an embarrasment. This move will rock the clubhouse from it's "bored" slumber like an atom bomb.

- Reyes must grow up. This young man needs to be told that joy comes from playing ML baseball in a professional manner. Celebrations are for winning games, not sacrificing a runner over. The re-appearence of Reyes's unnessasary, bush league, hand celebrations and dugout dancing has coincided with the re-emergence of slopy play and mental mistakes. Who is going to mentor this boy ?

- Hielman must be moved. This is Sisk II. It will be impossible for this guy to take the mound at Shea. No man would be uneffected by what awaits this season's poster child of failure. On this, I can no longer criticise the fans for booing. It's sends a message to management. Hielman will never right his ship as a Met. It's over. Acknowldge this fact of life and get WHOMEVER or WHATEVER you can for him.

-Sosa may have to go too. Can he be sent down ? I don't know his status. He's not performing at an acceptable level. Move him down for fixing, or out alltogether.

-Drop Cassanova. Send a message that styling is unaceptable. Need a backup ? Sign Piazza. That's not a joke.

-Fire Peterson. Perez is turning back into a pumpkin. The relief pitchers are a disaster. He's been here a long, long, long time. His non-successes far outnumber his successes. Time for a fresh face, new approach.

- Fire Sandy Alomar. This is the mentor for the young latin players ? Reyes play has deteriorated since his arrival. Some players feel comfortable with him ? Let's remove their comfort zone. A little edgeness and unease never hurt anyone.

-Replace Willie. It has to be the rite guy. Who is that ? Are the players too comfortable around HoJo ? That won't help. The move would have to be INSPIRED. I want Wally Backman in NY. Forget the PC crap. This guy is the next Billy Martin, if he can only get another shot. Randolph is not leading this team, he seems an after-thought to the players. What happened to the guy who changed a culture of loosing around in 2006 ? I wish you well Willie, I don't know why it has all gone so wrong.

-Find Pitching. Relief, relief, relief. If Omar can't do it, find someone who can. Scour the Independent leagues, Mexico, Japan, Little Leagues. Anyone is better than what we have.

- Keep Pagan in the Lineup. He brings youth & speed, just what the team needs. He plays like he has something to prove. This is what the team REALLY needs. He makes Endy available for a trade.

- Marlon Anderson ? This year's Mets may be last years Dodgers. 1 for 15 is not gonna cut it.

[NY16CATCHER]

As for what to do now...the options are several. All of them involve shaking up the dynamic a bit.

1. Fire Willie. Sometimes a manager getting fired makes a ball club pull together, especially a veteran team. It's happened before. And maybe a new voice at the helm and a new message might get the ship pointed in the right direction.

2. Fire Peterson. (should have happened last season). Just like firing Rick Down last season when they weren't hitting, you take the position coach to task for the failures of the players under him.

3. Big time roster move. DFA Delgado and Heilman and/or make a trade of some importance. Shake it up.

4. Fire Omar. He put this team together. Maybe he bears some responsibility for its on field showing.

The bottom line is this club has played sub .500 baseball since last Memorial Day. For all the expectations and talent, that's pathetic.

[NJMetfan4life]

- Reyes must grow up. This young man needs to be told that joy comes from playing ML baseball in a professional manner. Celebrations are for winning games, not sacrificing a runner over. The re-appearence of Reyes's unnessasary, bush league, hand celebrations and dugout dancing has coincided with the re-emergence of slopy play and mental mistakes. Who is going to mentor this boy ?

Lay-off him. He's doing well so far.



-Drop Cassanova. Send a message that styling is unaceptable. Need a backup ? Sign Piazza. That's not a joke.

Agreed 100%



- Fire Sandy Alomar. This is the mentor for the young latin players ? Reyes play has deteriorated since his arrival. Some players feel comfortable with him ? Let's remove their comfort zone. A little edgeness and unease never hurt anyone.

Really? Fire the 3rd base coach? What next? Fire the Hot Dog Vendors?



-Find Pitching. Relief, relief, relief. If Omar can't do it, find someone who can. Scour the Independent leagues, Mexico, Japan, Little Leagues. Anyone is better than what we have.

- Keep Pagan in the Lineup. He brings youth & speed, just what the team needs. He plays like he has something to prove. This is what the team REALLY needs. He makes Endy available for a trade.

Same as Piazza thing.


Marlon Anderson ? This year's Mets may be last years Dodgers. 1 for 15 is not gonna cut it.

What about his Home run last night?

[whoisonit]

Lay-off him. He's doing well so far.
He's getting careless lately. He can be an all time great, if, if, if.


Fire the 3rd base coach?
Yes, absolutely. But only in conjuntion with a managerial change too. Firing the 3rd base coach alone is rather silly.

What next?
Hire a new one.:)

Fire the Hot Dog Vendors?
Lay off them. I get hungry when we loose too.

What about his Home run last night?
I don't know. What about it ? Does it mean he turned it around ? I don't know what's the best thing to do about Anderson. He was atrocious with the Dodgers last year in the first half, then was money in the bank for us in the second half. 1 for 15 is brutal for a PH. Can we wait until July for him to come around ? I don't think that's a good idea. If giving him a couple of starts will help him work out the kinks, it should happen fast. We need his 'last season's' bat off the bench, not what we've gotten so far.
I'm by no means advocating releasing him at this point. But I'm not advocating against it either.

[NJMetfan4life]

You are great at taking words out of context.

[NYMets523]

-Find Pitching. Relief, relief, relief. If Omar can't do it, find someone who can. Scour the Independent leagues, Mexico, Japan, Little Leagues. Anyone is better than what we have.
Like relief pitching is just growing on trees. Who do you want him to sign? Mike Stanton? That's the only guy available. Omar has drafted college relievers the past few years. He's building up a supply.

To me, they need a major shakeup on the roster whether it's releasing Delgado or demoting/DFA'ing Aaron Heilman. I'm always in favor of firing Willie but we have to wait at least until May for that to be possible.

[whoisonit]

Like relief pitching is just growing on trees. Who do you want him to sign? Mike Stanton? That's the only guy available.

Well, that's a reasonable topic starter. Did I say reasonable ? Sorry, I meant ridiculous.



Omar has drafted college relievers the past few years. He's building up a supply.


That's nice. I'm more interested in this season than 2011. So I'll look you up on this point in 3 years.

[jsmets92]

That's nice. I'm more interested in this season than 2011. So I'll look you up on this point in 3 years.

As seen with Joe Smith, Chad Cordero and Huston Street among others, a well groomed college reliever can be servicable within a year or two of being drafted.

That said, They are trying to convert Brant Rustich into a starter for the time being, and guys like Eric Niesen and Stephen Clyne are struggling in single-A, albeit in limited appearances. A guy like Eddie Kunz, however, could make an impact as soon as this year if he has sucess at AA.

[NYMets523]

[quote]That's nice. I'm more interested in this season than 2011. So I'll look you up on this point in 3 years.
Draftees don't go get to the big leagues several months after they're drafted like Joba Chamberlain. The point is Minaya knows the bullpen is a weakness and he's attempting to build up a supply of relievers in the draft so he doesn't have to give out 2 years to Octavio Dotel.

[whoisonit]

As seen with Joe Smith, Chad Cordero and Huston Street among others, a well groomed college reliever can be servicable within a year or two of being drafted.

That said, They are trying to convert Brant Rustich into a starter for the time being, and guys like Eric Niesen and Stephen Clyne are struggling in single-A, albeit in limited appearances. A guy like Eddie Kunz, however, could make an impact as soon as this year if he has sucess at AA.

Good point re Street, Cordero, etc... Unfortunately, Mets have none ready to help now.

[whoisonit]

Draftees don't go get to the big leagues several months after they're drafted like Joba Chamberlain.
Never said they did. In fact, NOBODY in the thread did. In fact, I don't believe I've encountered a poster anywhere on BB-F that said they did.




The point is Minaya knows the bullpen is a weakness and he's attempting to build up a supply of relievers in the draft so he doesn't have to give out 2 years to Octavio Dotel.

The point being ? The only issues being addressed by myself and others are what is needed now and what we would like to see done now. Not sure what this is in reference to.

[NYMets523]

So you want him to give Scott Linebrink or David Riske horrible contracts just so they have something now? You can't trade for the good relievers and the ones available suck. He's at least making an effort to preven this from being a problem in the future.

[whoisonit]

So you want him to give Scott Linebrink or David Riske horrible contracts just so they have something now?
Please show me where I said anything about these players ... or, please show me ANY post ANYWHERE on BB-F where I so much as mention these two men.


You can't trade for the good relievers and the ones available suck.
You can't trade for relievers ? That's interesting, but an all together different disscusion. 2 points on the quoted statement:
1) please show me ANY post in this thread that proposed a trade for a specific reliever.
2) please show me ANY post that says we should trade for any relievers.

[NYMets523]

Please show me where I said anything about these players ... or, please show me ANY post ANYWHERE on BB-F where I so much as mention these two men.
I'm throwing out names of above average relievers that were available. You wanted Omar to build a better bullpen yet you fail to mention WHO he should have signed or traded for. Would you want one of them for 2 or 3 years?


You can't trade for relievers ? That's interesting, but an all together different disscusion. 2 points on the quoted statement:
1) please show me ANY post in this thread that proposed a trade for a specific reliever.
2) please show me ANY post that says we should trade for any relievers.
Let me rephrase that. It is very hard to acquire good relievers in a trade. Especially when you traded your best prospects for a starting pitcher.

How is it a different discussion. You say Omar should have build a strong bullpen. I'm asking you who he should have acquired. It's easy to say he should have made a facet of the team better, but you have to say he should have done so by acquiring a specific player.

[Baseball Guru]

Worry, the team is hopelessly mediocre and flawed. Big & multiple changes must be made now.

- Delgado must be released. This single move, on it's own, may have more of an impact on the club than even a managerial change. Delgado is the acknowledged leader in the clubhouse. His lethargic style has infected the team. As a key lineup bat, whether at 5 or 6, he is dead wood, affecting how the others are pitched to. His fielding was never his strong point, now it has deteriorated to the point of being an embarrasment. This move will rock the clubhouse from it's "bored" slumber like an atom bomb.

- Reyes must grow up. This young man needs to be told that joy comes from playing ML baseball in a professional manner. Celebrations are for winning games, not sacrificing a runner over. The re-appearence of Reyes's unnessasary, bush league, hand celebrations and dugout dancing has coincided with the re-emergence of slopy play and mental mistakes. Who is going to mentor this boy ?

- Hielman must be moved. This is Sisk II. It will be impossible for this guy to take the mound at Shea. No man would be uneffected by what awaits this season's poster child of failure. On this, I can no longer criticise the fans for booing. It's sends a message to management. Hielman will never right his ship as a Met. It's over. Acknowldge this fact of life and get WHOMEVER or WHATEVER you can for him.

-Sosa may have to go too. Can he be sent down ? I don't know his status. He's not performing at an acceptable level. Move him down for fixing, or out alltogether.

-Drop Cassanova. Send a message that styling is unaceptable. Need a backup ? Sign Piazza. That's not a joke.

-Fire Peterson. Perez is turning back into a pumpkin. The relief pitchers are a disaster. He's been here a long, long, long time. His non-successes far outnumber his successes. Time for a fresh face, new approach.

- Fire Sandy Alomar. This is the mentor for the young latin players ? Reyes play has deteriorated since his arrival. Some players feel comfortable with him ? Let's remove their comfort zone. A little edgeness and unease never hurt anyone.

-Replace Willie. It has to be the rite guy. Who is that ? Are the players too comfortable around HoJo ? That won't help. The move would have to be INSPIRED. I want Wally Backman in NY. Forget the PC crap. This guy is the next Billy Martin, if he can only get another shot. Randolph is not leading this team, he seems an after-thought to the players. What happened to the guy who changed a culture of loosing around in 2006 ? I wish you well Willie, I don't know why it has all gone so wrong.

-Find Pitching. Relief, relief, relief. If Omar can't do it, find someone who can. Scour the Independent leagues, Mexico, Japan, Little Leagues. Anyone is better than what we have.

- Keep Pagan in the Lineup. He brings youth & speed, just what the team needs. He plays like he has something to prove. This is what the team REALLY needs. He makes Endy available for a trade.

- Marlon Anderson ? This year's Mets may be last years Dodgers. 1 for 15 is not gonna cut it.


I agree things need to be done but some of these things I disagree with..

The Delgado and Heilman issues are a big priority IMO.. Heilman has always complained about being in the pen and just doesnt pitch like he really wants to be there..

Delgado has just gotten old real fast and the injuries have caught up with him... He doesnt have a good eye anymore and his swing is slow.. I dont htink he'll EVER be the player he once was...

I dont think Peterson, Willie or Omar should be fired.. Seriously, look at this team.. On paper they should be the best team in the NL.. How is Omar to blame for their performances. He went out and got Pedro, Santana, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner etc. All guys that were performing at an excellent level when he traded for him. Its not his fault that guys are underachieving...

Peterson was hailed as a genius in Oakland.. How is he to blame for some of the poor performances? Ollie has always been a head case and had 1 poor outing so now all of a sudden he's a horrible pitcher? Ollie is about as good or better nwo than he has ever been.. Yeah, he's gonna have the occasional poor performance but I think that is not the norm..

Why not hold Guy Conti accountable for some of the bullpen issues? After all, he is the bullpen coach and no one is suggesting he gets fired?

Its still April... The Marlins are in 1st place.. Show of hands on how many people actually think they are going to win the division... Seriously, April is not the time to panic.. Sure we arent where we want to be or expect to be but you think Braves or Philly fans expected to be 1 or 2 games over .500 themselves? No one is going to run away with the division and I expect it to be a battle till the ed with these 3 teams...

[NY16CATCHER]

I agree things need to be done but some of these things I disagree with..

The Delgado and Heilman issues are a big priority IMO.. Heilman has always complained about being in the pen and just doesnt pitch like he really wants to be there..

Delgado has just gotten old real fast and the injuries have caught up with him... He doesnt have a good eye anymore and his swing is slow.. I dont htink he'll EVER be the player he once was...

I dont think Peterson, Willie or Omar should be fired.. Seriously, look at this team.. On paper they should be the best team in the NL.. How is Omar to blame for their performances. He went out and got Pedro, Santana, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner etc. All guys that were performing at an excellent level when he traded for him. Its not his fault that guys are underachieving...

Peterson was hailed as a genius in Oakland.. How is he to blame for some of the poor performances? Ollie has always been a head case and had 1 poor outing so now all of a sudden he's a horrible pitcher? Ollie is about as good or better nwo than he has ever been.. Yeah, he's gonna have the occasional poor performance but I think that is not the norm..

Why not hold Guy Conti accountable for some of the bullpen issues? After all, he is the bullpen coach and no one is suggesting he gets fired?

Its still April... The Marlins are in 1st place.. Show of hands on how many people actually think they are going to win the division... Seriously, April is not the time to panic.. Sure we arent where we want to be or expect to be but you think Braves or Philly fans expected to be 1 or 2 games over .500 themselves? No one is going to run away with the division and I expect it to be a battle till the ed with these 3 teams...


There was serious internal discussion about firing Guy Conti after the collapse of last season. Obviously, that didn't happen. In reality, firing Guy makes no sense. A bullpen coach is really almost a glorified baby sitter/message delivery service, delivering the approach the pitching coach wants to the relief staff. It's like killing the messenger. And would it really be much of a shakeup? Not really.

The fact is that this team is sub .500 since last memorial day. Given the talent, etc. this team has, that's a pathetic reality. This team looks no better than, and in some ways worse, than the team that sturggled a majority of last season. If you aren't going to shake up the roster in a significant way, then the only avenue for change you have is a meaningful position in the coaching staff/front office. I just don't think Peterson's style is reaching the staff he has, in spite of Minaya's attempts to get him the type of pitcher he wants. And you can squarely put some blame on Willie, for his mismanagement of the pen, his unwavering commitment to veterans who clearly should not be in the positions they are (look at Delgado last season, he batted him cleanup forever, then dropped him to the 5 hole, and finally when it was abundantly clear he wasn't going to hit, to the 6 spot, only to bump him back up again later on in the season.) and his lack of in game tactics. Nevermind he is about as inspirational a leader as a sunday school teacher. He had NO managerial experience prior to taking this job and it shows. Sitting next to Torre (who can't manage a bullpen either) doesn't qualify one to manage at the MLB level.

[whoisonit]

I dont think Peterson, Willie or Omar should be fired.. Seriously, look at this team.. On paper they should be the best team in the NL.. How is Omar to blame for their performances. He went out and got Pedro, Santana, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner etc. All guys that were performing at an excellent level when he traded for him. Its not his fault that guys are underachieving...
Let me just clear up the part of the post that mentions Miniya. I don't think Omar should be fired. Nobody, and I mean nobody thought Betran & Pedro were coming here when they were hot topics during '05. Ditto for Santana in '07. I think he has done an unbelievable job. I fault him for almost nothing because to expect every move to work out is silly. The moves I want to see are in bold. "Fire Miniya" is not in bold. "Find Pitching" is. I should have left out the sentence "if Minaya can't, find someone who will". But hindsight, ...well ... too late to remove those words now. I do not want Miniya fired. Period.:)
I have always been one of Willies biggest supporters. But, and it's a big but, there is something wrong with this team dating back to mid-last season. If, and it's a big if too, a managerial change will change what seems to be a laconic, unfocused team, I'm not going to let my personal respect and admiration of Randolph prevent me from cheering and welcoming the move.



Its still April... The Marlins are in 1st place.. Show of hands on how many people actually think they are going to win the division... Seriously, April is not the time to panic.. Sure we arent where we want to be or expect to be but you think Braves or Philly fans expected to be 1 or 2 games over .500 themselves? No one is going to run away with the division and I expect it to be a battle till the ed with these 3 teams...

Thank you for stating this. Seeing opinions like this was the reason for the thread and the various options in the poll. Especially since the thread was started after yet another brutal, crushing loss, I'm honestly interested in other's opinion on whether or not it's too early too panic, or if we've been TOO patient since mid-season, last.

[AutographCollector]

My thoughts:

1.) GET RID OF HEILMAN!!! We don't need that bozo. We have plenty of guys in the bullpen.

2.) Get rid of Delgado. Either he strikeouts too much or he pop outs too much. Who should we sign? I don't know... get Keith Hernandez out of retirement!

3.) Should Rick Peterson go? No. He can only do so much with the starts and bullpen. It's up to the pitchers to hit their spots. Why blame the boss for YOU not doing your job right?

4.) Reyes to "out of control" with his celebrations? Nahhhh..... if he gets a triple in the late innings vs an NL East rival and it's the beginning of a rally, then yeah! I'm all for his little arm clapping, etc,etc....

[Baseball Guru]

4.) Reyes to "out of control" with his celebrations? Nahhhh..... if he gets a triple in the late innings vs an NL East rival and it's the beginning of a rally, then yeah! I'm all for his little arm clapping, etc,etc....


I agree with that!

I like it when a player gets fired up and lets face it, Reyes is our sparkplug and should continue to play like it... Notice how he started playing better once he got rid of the serious attitude and began having "fun" again? He slumped in the 2nd half of the season last year.. So what..
I'd rather have an emotional player on my team liek a Reyes over an unemotional player like Heilman...

He's a young, improving player.. Its going to happen...

[metfan13]

Bunch of chicken little crap if you ask me.

[whoisonit]

Bunch of chicken little crap if you ask me.

Ditto that !

I would love to see his hand jiving, hip slaping, boogie dancing, routine after the last out of the WS.

Until then, just play the game.

[metfan13]

Ditto that !

I would love to see his hand jiving, hip slaping, boogie dancing, routine after the last out of the WS.

Until then, just play the game.

I think you're agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

I'm talking about the whole woe is us attitude of fans in April.

[whoisonit]

I think you're agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

I'm talking about the whole woe is us attitude of fans in April.

Doe ! :eek:

Never mind then.:blush:

[NYMets523]

I think you're agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

I'm talking about the whole woe is us attitude of fans in April.

It's not a "woe is us" attitude. It's a "this team isn't as good as the delusional front office thinks it is and unless they do something soon they're going to suck again just like last year" attitude.

[JohnCropp]

REALITY CHECK: IT IS APRIL 26TH AND THE METS ARE 1.5 GAMES OUT!!!

I imagine that whoisonit trades his car in when the gas gauge hits 1/4.

[NYMets523]

Which just shows the division isn't all it's cracked up to be. As a team, they're hitting .252/.337/.366 which is pretty pathetic.

The pitching has allowed 26 HR. 11 of which have been given up by our relievers. The team's BABip is .276 which means they've been lucky with balls in play.

The team has scored 107 runs and allowed 98. The Pythagorean on that is 12-11. Our exact W-L record. This team is nothing more than average.

[whoisonit]

I imagine that whoisonit trades his car in when the gas gauge hits 1/4.

Certianly not when I have four years of payments left ( Castillio ).
I would get it fixed if;
the axel was cracked ( Delgado )
the tail pipe was dragging the pavement ( Hielman )
the rear bumper was loose ( pen )
the tires were in danger of blowing out from wear ( Alou )
the front fender was dented ( Pedro )
the dashboard warning lights were flashing ( Ollie, Pelf )
the engine was making occasional funny noises ( Reyes )
Of course before I dropped it off at the repair shop, I would jettison the hitchiker I foolishly picked up who stinking up the interior with his BO ( Cassanova )
Really John, who wants a beautiful expensive car looking and running like a jalopy ?


It's not a "woe is us" attitude. It's a "this team isn't as good as the delusional front office thinks it is and unless they do something soon they're going to suck again just like last year" attitude.

Well said.

[metssincekindergarten]

Did any of you think that the Mets would be five up by now--maybe duplicating what Arizona is doing in the NL West?

If you did, you're expletive-deleted nuts.

We'd all love to have this team act like the '86 team did, with 108 regular-season victories, and destroying the division.

Guess what? It's not 1986! Get over it!

BTW, if any of you had any ability at being a GM whatsoever, you'd be a GM for a MLB team. Sit back and hang on for the ride.

BTW--Casanova just crushed a John Expletive-Deleted Smoltz fastball some 400 feet.

[NYMets523]

Did any of you think that the Mets would be five up by now--maybe duplicating what Arizona is doing in the NL West?

If you did, you're expletive-deleted nuts.

We'd all love to have this team act like the '86 team did, with 108 regular-season victories, and destroying the division.

Guess what? It's not 1986! Get over it!
The thing is they're not playing well. Even in some of their wins they haven't played well. In a lot of their losses they have been a disaster.


BTW, if any of you had any ability at being a GM whatsoever, you'd be a GM for a MLB team. Sit back and hang on for the ride.
Like they did last year? That strategy certainly worked, didn't it?

[JohnCropp]

Certianly not when I have four years of payments left ( Castillio ).
I would get it fixed if;
the axel was cracked ( Delgado )
the tail pipe was dragging the pavement ( Hielman )
the rear bumper was loose ( pen )
the tires were in danger of blowing out from wear ( Alou )
the front fender was dented ( Pedro )
the dashboard warning lights were flashing ( Ollie, Pelf )
the engine was making occasional funny noises ( Reyes )
Of course before I dropped it off at the repair shop, I would jettison the hitchiker I foolishly picked up who stinking up the interior with his BO ( Cassanova )
Really John, who wants a beautiful expensive car looking and running like a jalopy ?

Maybe this is where your dillusions begin: the car is 46 years old and I don't think Castillo's contract can be metaphorically compared to a car payment.

The car has been rebuilt and, aside for a month, has run exceptionally well ever since our new mechanic (Minaya) has been working on it. And, even with all the things that you've listed, the team is a game and a half out (to the Marlins!!!) less than a month into the season.

To use a word like "hopeless" in a poll about the Mets season when there are 139 games to go is absurd.

[NYMets523]

Our car is breaking down again.

Still running though

[whoisonit]

Maybe this is where your dillusions begin: the car is 46 years old and I don't think Castillo's contract can be metaphorically compared to a car payment.

Perhaps my "dellusion" was being gracious enough to respect your tourtured "car" metaphor in my response. Or was it disrespectful to use it without asking what your metaphor ground rules were ?


The car has been rebuilt and, aside for a month, has run exceptionally well ever since our new mechanic (Minaya) has been working on it.
Did you just awaken from an 8 month coma ?


To use a word like "hopeless" in a poll about the Mets season when there are 139 games to go is absurd.
Well it seems you appreciate absurdity. Otherwise you wouldn't have wieghed in with your comments.

[metfan13]

One of the broken parts just hit two homers today.

[NYMets523]

Still broken.

[NY16CATCHER]

One of the broken parts just hit two homers today.

A broken clock is correct 2 times a day.

We went through this last season with Delgado. He'd go through miserable stretches, have a good series against someone and Mets fans everywhere would be jumping on the "he's all better/fixed" bandwagon, only to see him revert to form shortly.

The truth is, his performance is so bleak, and Mets fans are so desperate, that 1 game constitutes reason for celebration. He's a year older, the bat is visibly slower and those things aren't going to change. He is what he is at this point.

[metfan13]

Las tseason, whenever Delgado started to get going, he'd be hit with some kind of injury that would set him back.

[AutographCollector]

Las tseason, whenever Delgado started to get going, he'd be hit with some kind of injury that would set him back.

Wasn't he hit by a fastball last season that sidelined him with a broken hand? I wouldn't exactly say that THAT was his fault...

[whoisonit]

Wasn't he hit by a fastball last season that sidelined him with a broken hand? I wouldn't exactly say that THAT was his fault...

I thought that was the last day of the season ?

[AutographCollector]

I thought that was the last day of the season ?

*shrugs*
I'll do some research and let ya know.

EDIT: September 30th... regardless

[whoisonit]

EDIT: September 30th... regardless

Safe to say that wasn't his problem then. I do remember him having some kind of hip discomfort. Of course, while I'm not nessasarily trying to imply anything other than the natrual aging process ... The glaring, drastic drop in his numbers coincides with some, uh, changes in the MLB/Players Union agreement.

[NY16CATCHER]

Safe to say that wasn't his problem then. I do remember him having some kind of hip discomfort. Of course, while I'm not nessasarily trying to imply anything other than the natrual aging process ... The glaring, drastic drop in his numbers coincides with some, uh, changes in the MLB/Players Union agreement.

Your, **ahem**, assumption is at best, a bit far stretched, and really just smacks of an Oliver Stone style of conspiracy theory. Simply because a players production has dropped should not imply immediately the use of performance enhancing substances. If you look at his fall off, it was predictable and relates directly to his increased age. Delgado's problem is age, pure and simple. Alot of players lose bat speed as they age, and Carlos is no exception.

He did suffer from a hip flexor issue, and a bruised knee on seperate occasions last season, and the hand injury occured at the end of the season.

Matt Morris was a pretty good pitcher a couple of years ago...he's fallen on such hard times that the Pirates released him yesterday....does his fall off have to do with a change in the CBA too?

[whoisonit]

Conspiracy ?:confused: Huh ?:confused:
I didn't imply anyone did any thing to him. Likening an observation on the correlating time frame between Delgado's numbers & MLB testing policies to a "conspiracy" makes absolutely no sense.
To not question any current player who went from dominating to dissmal after testing began smacks of a Walt Disney stlye of happily ever after fairy tales.

[NY16CATCHER]

Conspiracy ?:confused: Huh ?:confused:
I didn't imply anyone did any thing to him. Likening an observation on the correlating time frame between Delgado's numbers & MLB testing policies to a "conspiracy" makes absolutely no sense.
To not question any current player who went from dominating to dissmal after testing began smacks of a Walt Disney stlye of happily ever after fairy tales.

I was equating your pattern of thought to the Oliver Stone style of conspiracy theory fans, who believe simply because 2 unrelated events occur at the same time they must actually be connected.

Like it or not, reality is a minority of ball players took performance enhancing substances. I won't deny it occured and I won't deny that the scope of it was larger than the average fan understood. But to simply call into question every single player from an entire generation for declines that are clearly related to the evolutionary changes of age, is just simply illogical and unfair to all parties involved.

[whoisonit]

Like it or not, reality is a minority of ball players took performance enhancing substances.

And this comment is based on ... what ?

[NY16CATCHER]

And this comment is based on ... what ?

Talk to anyone who has had access to a MLB or minor league clubhouse. You seem to assume that a majority of players were juicing, which isn't the case. Yes, there were some, more than a lot of people thought, but to claim it was a majority is simply not factually correct.

[whoisonit]

By "anyone" you mean "except Jose Canseco", correct ? lol.

I have zero proof of how many, how few, who was, who wasn't. I don't assume anything. As was mentioned in another thread, we all know the perils of assuming because we all watch too much TV.
You say not many, others say most, I say I don't know. Like all non-MLB employed fans, I have my suspicions, as well as my naiveness.
As far as what is "factually correct", unless you personally were running around with a satchel full of urine sample cups testing each and every player, then personaly analyzing the results, you are in no position to state the "factual " correctness or "factual" incorrectness of a claim. I doubt even Bud Selig knows for sure , and you're not Bud, are you.

(btw- if you are please PM me, I would like to offer some brilliant insights and genius ideas regarding the game. All at a reasonable fee.)

[NYMets523]

Las tseason, whenever Delgado started to get going, he'd be hit with some kind of injury that would set him back.

Which was a grand total of two times.

[metfan13]

Conspiracy ?:confused: Huh ?:confused:
I didn't imply anyone did any thing to him. Likening an observation on the correlating time frame between Delgado's numbers & MLB testing policies to a "conspiracy" makes absolutely no sense.
To not question any current player who went from dominating to dissmal after testing began smacks of a Walt Disney stlye of happily ever after fairy tales.

Oddly enough you equate the normal aging process (what affected players like McCovey) of a guy Delgado's age with someone stopping the use of substances that would allow him to enjoy the extended career path of players like Bonds. Interesting.

[metfan13]

Which was a grand total of two times.

Delgado's numbers for July and September were very good. his May wasn't bad either. Took him awhile to get started in April coming off surgery. he had some health issues during the year that affected June and August.

[NYMets523]

Let's also not forget Delgado was the moron who said "We're so good, we sometimes get bored." Do we really want that attitude on this team another year?

[metfan13]

Let's also not forget Delgado was the moron who said "We're so good, we sometimes get bored." Do we really want that attitude on this team another year?

Why not, we deal with the crappy attitudes of our so-called fans.

[whoisonit]

Oddly enough you equate the normal aging process (what affected players like McCovey) of a guy Delgado's age with someone stopping the use of substances that would allow him to enjoy the extended career path of players like Bonds. Interesting.

Oddly, you equate a player from the burbon and coffee era of the 1960's (McCovey) with a player of the steroid era with a straight face. Incredible. A saying one would hear in a courtroom comes to mind; 'Objection ! Relevance ?"

[NY16CATCHER]

Oddly, you equate a player from the burbon and coffee era of the 1960's (McCovey) with a player of the steroid era with a straight face. Incredible. A saying one would hear in a courtroom comes to mind; 'Objection ! Relevance ?"

Well if you want to get into a battle using courtroom style discussion and tactics...your assumption "assumes facts not in evidence". You have failed to produce a "chain of evidence" that ties Carlos Delgado to the use of performance enhancing substances.

The only "evidence" you have pointed out is extremely weak, "circumstantial evidence", that relates not to the use of PED's but to the fact he played during certain years. That, in and of itself, does not constitute evidence of anything.

I say that you are suffering from a severe case of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

[whoisonit]

The only "evidence" you have pointed out is extremely weak, "circumstantial evidence", that relates not to the use of PED's but to the fact he played during certain years. That, in and of itself, does not constitute evidence of anything.
Allow me to clear up a common misconception concerning "circumstantial evidence". Said evidence is in no way considered "weak" in US jurisprudence. Every day in courtrooms across this great nation, Judges and jurys convict soley on the merrits of indirect evidence, aka: circumstantial evidence. (check back in one hour for the inevitable plethora of posts presenting examples of "convicted" innocents).
The known "facts" entered as "direct evidence", in this case; the years of known steroid abuse, the results of said abuse, the years of productive offense of Delgado, the begining of more stringent, more frequent testing, the time frame of Delgado's severe drop off without decline era. From these known "facts" one may then infer, which what one is charged to do with "circumstantial evidence", a logical conclusion.

In conclusion, let me state unequivically, I don't care why he can no longer produce, I simply want him to go away.


I say that you are suffering from a severe case of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
How dare you !
Such an egregious slur, if in fact it proves to be a slur, may result in a strongly worded rebutul post. Be warned !

[metfan13]

So assuming Delgado is merely aging, and following the typical aging pattern is more farfetched than the unfounded claim that he used performance enhancers, then suddenly quit?

[NYMets523]

If he used PED's I hope he still has his receipt so he can get a refund.

[whoisonit]

So assuming Delgado is merely aging, and following the typical aging pattern is more farfetched than the unfounded claim that he used performance enhancers, then suddenly quit?

Is this thread about why Delgado can't produce or what should be done about his lack of production ?
You keep harping on PED's. It doesn't matter.

[metfan13]

Is this thread about why Delgado can't produce or what should be done about his lack of production ?
You keep harping on PED's. It doesn't matter.

I'm not the one who brought it up. You inferred that he was a user.

[whoisonit]

To use a word like "hopeless" in a poll about the Mets season when there are 139 games to go is absurd.

2 games later and my "absurd" claim continues to be prescient.

[jsmets92]

2 games later and my "absurd" claim continues to be prescient.

I'm obviously not thrilled with how they have been playing so far, but I think hopeless is a bit strong for a team that is over .500 and 1 game out of first place, even with all of their troubles.

[whoisonit]

I'm obviously not thrilled with how they have been playing so far, but I think hopeless is a bit strong for a team that is over .500 and 1 game out of first place, even with all of their troubles.

I understand what you're saying.
Yes, they're over .500. Yes, with all their stumbles, they're still 'rite there'.

But isn't this just exactly the same script we saw last year ? I don't view their problems as just an "it's still April" thing. This has been going on a long time.
They'll be 'rite there' all year, probably a good part of it in first place. That speaks more to the compitition than to the teams health.

[jsmets92]

I understand what you're saying.
Yes, they're over .500. Yes, with all their stumbles, they're still 'rite there'.

But isn't this just exactly the same script we saw last year ? I don't view their problems as just an "it's still April" thing. This has been going on a long time.
They'll be 'rite there' all year, probably a good part of it in first place. That speaks more to the compitition than to the teams health.

I'm just saying that hopeless is a very strong term to be throwing around with 136 games left. They have been underwhelming, but the other teams in the division have just as many problems. And nothing's saying they won't get hot and end up running away with it, and once the playoffs start, anything can happen.

[NYMets523]

Calling the team hopeless is extreme. However it's applicable to individuals. Aaron Heilman and Jorge Sosa are hopeless as effective relievers. Carlos Delgado is hopeless as a solid 1B. Willie Randolph is hopeless as a compotent manager.

[metfan13]

Heilman is not hopeless. Delgado is not hopeless.

Sosa is a spare part.

Willie's not a great manager, but there are many worse.

[whoisonit]

I'm just saying that hopeless is a very strong term to be throwing around with 136 games left. They have been underwhelming, but the other teams in the division have just as many problems. And nothing's saying they won't get hot and end up running away with it, and once the playoffs start, anything can happen.

I agree with everything you've said. I should always wait 2 hours before posting after a loss. "Underwhelming" is an excellent word choice.

[NYMets523]

Heilman is not hopeless. Delgado is not hopeless.

Sosa is a spare part.

Willie's not a great manager, but there are many worse.

Heilman is hopeless. He was brutal last year and even worse this year. He was horrible last night. Delgado is completely useless with the bat and glove and should be hitting 9th. Willie is a dunce. All he's accomplished are disappointments. He's lack of control over this team shows he's done all he can do. It wasn't a coincidence he was rejected from 11 jobs before the Mets were dumb enough to hire him. He was only hired because he was a name.

[metfan13]

Heilman is hopeless. He was brutal last year and even worse this year. He was horrible last night. Delgado is completely useless with the bat and glove and should be hitting 9th. Willie is a dunce. All he's accomplished are disappointments. He's lack of control over this team shows he's done all he can do. It wasn't a coincidence he was rejected from 11 jobs before the Mets were dumb enough to hire him. He was only hired because he was a name.

Maybe Willie should be calling you the dunce.

No way Heilman was brutal last year.

81 games, 3.03 ERA, 1.07 Whip, 86 IP, 72 H, 20 BB, 63K

He allowed an earned run in 18 of 81 appearances, only 4 times after Aug 1.

Heilman was a horse last year, used over and over and usually doing the job.

Fans who expect perfection shouldn't be watching baseball. It's not a game of perfection.

The Mets fanbase gets more pathetic by the day.

[NYMets523]

Did you not see all the gut wrenching home runs he gave up? The guy had 7 losses. 7 losses by a reliever is a lot.

[metfan13]

Did you not see all the gut wrenching home runs he gave up? The guy had 7 losses. 7 losses by a reliever is a lot.

Not when he pitches in half your games. And when you're an 8th inning guy, every homer is gutwrenching.

He gave up 1 homer after July 16. 37 appearances.

[NYMets523]

He blew 9 games last year. He doesn't blow 1 of those, we win the division. Sugar coat it all you want. The point is he wasn't as good as his stats showed last year and he is a complete nightmare who has gone from set up man to 6th inning guy in one month and failed miserably at both. He has no place on this team. None.

[metfan13]

He blew 9 games last year. He doesn't blow 1 of those, we win the division. Sugar coat it all you want. The point is he wasn't as good as his stats showed last year and he is a complete nightmare who has gone from set up man to 6th inning guy in one month and failed miserably at both. He has no place on this team. None.


The fact is, no one's perfect. Everyone on that team had at least one game where they didn't come through. Every player on that team had at least one chance during the year when they could have won the pennant with a big hit or a shut down inning. That's going to be the fact for any team that falls a game short. You have to look at a player's whole season and see if they did the job. heilman did. He was used extensively and put up good number. he blew nine games. He did the job 72 times. I'd love to see how perfect you are at whatever you do.

[Baseball Guru]

Heilman is hopeless. He was brutal last year .

How is a guy that had an era of 3.03 and a whip of 1.07 considered BRUTAL?

Thats a bit exaggerated isn't it?

Yeah, he drives us nuts as he seems to give up a big run at the worst time and shows no emotion but his #'s were actually good last year and won 7 games out of the pen... His #'s the last 3 years, not including this season have been very consistent...

[whoisonit]

Hielman has been pretty good until this year. Nobody can say they expected him to be the poster child for everyone's fustrations this season.

He's been consistant in having his ugly streaks. The difference this season is that he's starting off ugly. It's by far easier to rebound from a mid-season slump than to start the season so brutaly. For one thing, it's sticks out more with the fan's, hence the booing. Also, he doesn't have a body of work this season to fall back on so no doubt his confidence is in shambles. Both of these aspects are going to make it more difficult for him to find his zone.

Hielman's total and complete ineffectiveness thus far easily ranks as the shock of the season.

[metfan13]

Hielman has been pretty good until this year. Nobody can say they expected him to be the poster child for everyone's fustrations this season.

He's been consistant in having his ugly streaks. The difference this season is that he's starting off ugly. It's by far easier to rebound from a mid-season slump than to start the season so brutaly. For one thing, it's sticks out more with the fan's, hence the booing. Also, he doesn't have a body of work this season to fall back on so no doubt his confidence is in shambles. Both of these aspects are going to make it more difficult for him to find his zone.

Hielman's total and complete ineffectiveness thus far easily ranks as the shock of the season.


But I think that's the fan's problem. Not understanding that ALL players will slump over the long season. Would it have accomplished anything last year of the fans had jumped all over David Wright, booing his every appearance, because he had a bad April? And why is it more difficult to rebound from a bad start? Wright did last year, and I believe Beltran will this year. It seems it's more a perception by the fans. Again the so called intelligent Mets fanbase (See the SI stadium article) isn't showing itself by booing a guy the team will need over the next 5 months. It's counterproductive.

[whoisonit]

But I think that's the fan's problem. Not understanding that ALL players will slump over the long season. Would it have accomplished anything last year of the fans had jumped all over David Wright, booing his every appearance, because he had a bad April? And why is it more difficult to rebound from a bad start? Wright did last year, and I believe Beltran will this year. It seems it's more a perception by the fans. Again the so called intelligent Mets fanbase (See the SI stadium article) isn't showing itself by booing a guy the team will need over the next 5 months. It's counterproductive.

I'm not a supporter of booing the home town guys. Never have been, never will be, never done it. You cannot deny there is a hangover from last year among the fans, both the booers and the regular ones. I think that's why the booers seem to be in the majority this year; fustration. As for how this affects Hielman, as opposed to Wright & Beltran, he has become a target the likes of which hasn't been seen since Doug Sisk went from reliable to public enemy #1. He has never been loved & adored the way Wright has, so he has no 'love' to fall back on in these borish times. Beltran has his own way of dealing with the negative fans in the past. He has said it's his Christian faith that keeps him on an even keel and helps him weather the difficult times. With Hielman, we often hear he has confidence issues. Starting off bad, as opposed to a mid season slump, puts more pressure on a player. Hielman hasn't demonstrated an ability to excell under pressure. He seems to wilt. Add the brutal, insecent boos pounding down on him, it is very possible he won't be able to rebound with this team, in this city, with the onslaught from these fans. Frankly, I don't know how anybody would not be crushed by the constant venom of 20,000 people at the mere sight of you. I've never been in that situation, but I don't think it would help me one bit.

[Baseball Guru]

But I think that's the fan's problem. Not understanding that ALL players will slump over the long season. Would it have accomplished anything last year of the fans had jumped all over David Wright, booing his every appearance, because he had a bad April? And why is it more difficult to rebound from a bad start? Wright did last year, and I believe Beltran will this year. It seems it's more a perception by the fans. Again the so called intelligent Mets fanbase (See the SI stadium article) isn't showing itself by booing a guy the team will need over the next 5 months. It's counterproductive.

Thats a great post, a great point and the absolute truth...

Some fans are so quick to boo a player for a little slump... Geez, a guy has a bad week and they are boo'ing him.. Its a long season and I think fans are too quick to jump off a guys bandwagon...

Hafta take the bad with the good!

[Brooklyn]

I'm not understanding the panic. The Mets are 2 games over .500, and 1/2 game out of first.

yeah, it would have been nice if they had run away with the division to make us forget last year. But did anyone really expect that to happen?

I find it encouraging that they are over .500 despite:

- Wright batting .281
- beltran batting .211
- Reyes batting .250
- Delgado batting .198
- Castillo batting .259
- Heilman with a 5.51 era

I expect all those players to have better stats by year-end (with the possible exception of Castillo, I'm not sure what he has left). I'm happy they are where they are despite all the slumping. Santana is also "only" 3-2, so it isn't like they are over .500 becuase he is carrying them

I'm waiting for them to break out and clip off a hot streak

Yeah, I'm concerned, but it is way to early to make major changes

[whoisonit]

-Is it too early in the season to begin to voice concerns over the direction of this team, they'll be fine ?

No. it was not too early 3 weeks ago, and it most certianly is not too early now with 1/4 of the season finished.



Does this team need major, dramatic, headline grabbing, changes in both key personel and multiple personel ?

Yes. Absolutely.

1 - Clean house in the coaches room & managers office. Please God, do not hire Felipe Alou. If they don't hire John Stearns or Wally Backman, please let it be Kirk Gibson. I don't ever want to see the great DW stand at home and stare at his pop up ever, ever again.

2 - Either release Delgado or trade him and pay all but the ML minimum on his remaining salary. He is the true leader of this listless, lethargic, bored, going through the motions team.

3 - Make a public statement that no player on this team is untouchable. That failure to run out balls, play hard & focus will not be tolerated and any player that does not understand that will be moved regardless of their salary.

4 - Give Castillo undetectable PED's or put him down like a lame race horse.

[LostMet]

I am looking for the detonator too, but the reality is who are we going to trade? Our .240 leadoff guy? Beltran has a non trade. Delgado has 16 million reasons not to trade for him. Castillo, who in their right mind would want him? Alou? Church? Wright? Those 3 can actually play ball. Who do we trade and what do we get back? It's going to be a long, frustrating and boring summer of .500 baseball. Right now we have 2 consistent chances to win based upon our starters. Santana and Maine. Perez...you never know. Pelfrey...you hope he has turned a corner but...you never know. Vargas...the dude has a 5 ERA.

As I have said before...it is a poorly constructed team. AND despite the results, Willie isn't to blame for their pathetic performances. Right now, IMO of the regulars, only Church and Schneider get a pass. Which is a huge joke after all the winter moaning about dealing Milledge. The rest aren't geting it done.

[AutographCollector]

We needed this two game sweep of our cross town rivals over the weekend.
Johan & Ollie pitched well. And last night our offense just blew it up, and scored like it was a little league game. HOPEFULLY this awoke the beast that is called our offense.

[whoisonit]

The team looked interested and animated, led by the skipper. The Atlanta series will show us whether it's a new energy or a 48 hour virus.

[TheKingofKings]

The Mets have a pretty good team, they just need time.

I do agree though, that something should be done with Delgado, but other than that, I don't see anything that 100% NEEDS to be done, except: 1 steady reliever here, a bench player on a hot streak who offers competition to a starter there and everything should be fine...

[LostMet]

That thud you just heard was the Mets falling flat on their faces again. To freakin, Glavine and the freakin Braves of all people. Man football can't start fast enough.

[moebarguy]

It's not a "woe is us" attitude. It's a "this team isn't as good as the delusional front office thinks it is and unless they do something soon they're going to suck again just like last year" attitude.

Took the words out of my mouth. This team simply isn't as talented as many other teams in the NL. There is no doubt that the Pedro injury is a big reason for the mediocrity of this team, but it also has to do with guys like Delgado, Alou, and Castillo either not hitting or being out of the lineup too often.

In regards to actual moves the Mets could and should make, I have a few ideas.

The first and foremost is acquiring a starting pitcher. I'm sick and tired of the Mets throwing out clowns like Nelson Figueroa, Claudio Vargas, and even Mike Pelfrey. Pelfrey has been good his past two starts, but then again, he looked good his first two starts before surrendering 14 ER in his next three. There is really no excuse to use guys like Figueroa and Vargas, however. Good teams have better options than those two clowns. Which brings me to my first trade suggestion. The Indians have C.C. Sabathia, Fausto Carmona, Cliff Lee, Jake Westbrook, Paul Byrd, Aaron Laffey, Jeremy Sowers, and Adam Miller. They'd certainly be willing to trade a guy like Byrd, but I'd ask for Westbrook. The guy doesn't walk batters, he eats innings, he's 30, and he's under contract through 2010 ($10 mil in 2009, $11 mil in 2010). Not only would his acquisition lessen the loss of Oliver Perez to FA next season, but his ability to eat innings and throw strikes would have a positive ripple effect on our bullpen as well. The Indians could use a corner outfielder, but since we're struggling with offense ourselves, we would have to find a third team (i.e. The Pirates, Xavier Nady) who is out of it and would accept prospects. It's not too out there, we're not asking for Sabathia. Another guy to look at is Randy Wolf. Considering the Padres are all but toast, look for them to shop Wolf around.

Along with starting pitching, the Mets need to address their bullpen a bit too. As a long time supporter of Aaron Heilman, I am afraid to say that he has worn out his welcome. His inability to keep balls in the park and get big outs have cost the Mets far too many games this season. Even Duaner Sanchez has been bad. Granted, his ERA is mostly due to his 5 ER game, but his control has been awful (8 BB in 13+ IP). Sosa is finally off the team, but he too hurt the Mets while he was on the roster. Omar has to really look at teams like the Giants, the Royals, the Reds, the Padres, and the Rockies in terms of finding a few bullpen arms. Guys like Joel Peralta (Royals), Leo Nunez (Royals), Jared Burton (Reds), Manny Corpas (Rockies), Matt Herges (Rockies), Jason Grilli (Rockies), Justin Germano (Padres), Cla Meredith (Padres), Vinnie Chulk (Giants), and Tyler Walker (Giants) can be had and some wouldn't cost much at all. I would be particularly interested in guys like Peralta, Burton, Meredith, and Chulk, but really any of those guys would be improvements over some arms currently in our pen.

In terms of our offense, a few names come to mind who could help and are available: Marcus Thames (1B/OF, Tigers), Richie Sexson (1B, Mariners), and Juan Rivera (OF, Angels). I think that it's time for Delgado to be released -- his power is essentially gone, he's clueless against any decent pitcher, and he's slow on defense. Granted, Sexson isn't too much of an upgrade, but he's still an upgrade, he's certainly available, has more pop, and like Delgado, his contract is up after this season. I think he'd be worth the risk since he's still somewhat young. Thames and Rivera are two guys I think, if given some playing time, they could really produce. Considering Delgado is worthless, I wouldn't mind trying a guy like Thames at first and even give him some time in the OF since Alou/Chavez/Pagan aren't cutting it in terms of the power needed from a corner. Rivera could also play the corner and produce well. The problem with trying to trade for a guy like Jason Bay or snaring a legit 1B is that the Mets lack the prospects to pull a move like that. Another thing to consider is the weak FA market for 1B. Teixeira is the only legit 1B out there, but he's also not worth what he'll be asking. If Chad Tracy proves to be healthy soon, he could also be a good option for the Mets (but he would have to be healthy).

With some changes (like acquiring Westbrook, a few relievers, and a few hitters), the Mets could become a playoff team, however, Omar has to act soon...This team needs help quickly.

[NYMets523]

Westbrook is on the DL and the Indians only have interest in tradin Byrd since he's a FA next season. Most of the reliever you suggested aren't very good. The ones you do suggest won't be traded.

I'd offer Delgado for Sexson. It was brought up somewhere recently. Both have similar contracts and are hitting the same. Historically they've had better success in each other's current league.

[whoisonit]

Took the words out of my mouth. This team simply isn't as talented as many other teams in the NL. There is no doubt that the Pedro injury is a big reason for the mediocrity of this team, but it also has to do with guys like Delgado, Alou, and Castillo either not hitting or being out of the lineup too often.

In regards to actual moves the Mets could and should make, I have a few ideas.

The first and foremost is acquiring a starting pitcher. I'm sick and tired of the Mets throwing out clowns like Nelson Figueroa, Claudio Vargas, and even Mike Pelfrey. Pelfrey has been good his past two starts, but then again, he looked good his first two starts before surrendering 14 ER in his next three. There is really no excuse to use guys like Figueroa and Vargas, however. Good teams have better options than those two clowns. Which brings me to my first trade suggestion. The Indians have C.C. Sabathia, Fausto Carmona, Cliff Lee, Jake Westbrook, Paul Byrd, Aaron Laffey, Jeremy Sowers, and Adam Miller. They'd certainly be willing to trade a guy like Byrd, but I'd ask for Westbrook. The guy doesn't walk batters, he eats innings, he's 30, and he's under contract through 2010 ($10 mil in 2009, $11 mil in 2010). Not only would his acquisition lessen the loss of Oliver Perez to FA next season, but his ability to eat innings and throw strikes would have a positive ripple effect on our bullpen as well. The Indians could use a corner outfielder, but since we're struggling with offense ourselves, we would have to find a third team (i.e. The Pirates, Xavier Nady) who is out of it and would accept prospects. It's not too out there, we're not asking for Sabathia. Another guy to look at is Randy Wolf. Considering the Padres are all but toast, look for them to shop Wolf around.

Along with starting pitching, the Mets need to address their bullpen a bit too. As a long time supporter of Aaron Heilman, I am afraid to say that he has worn out his welcome. His inability to keep balls in the park and get big outs have cost the Mets far too many games this season. Even Duaner Sanchez has been bad. Granted, his ERA is mostly due to his 5 ER game, but his control has been awful (8 BB in 13+ IP). Sosa is finally off the team, but he too hurt the Mets while he was on the roster. Omar has to really look at teams like the Giants, the Royals, the Reds, the Padres, and the Rockies in terms of finding a few bullpen arms. Guys like Joel Peralta (Royals), Leo Nunez (Royals), Jared Burton (Reds), Manny Corpas (Rockies), Matt Herges (Rockies), Jason Grilli (Rockies), Justin Germano (Padres), Cla Meredith (Padres), Vinnie Chulk (Giants), and Tyler Walker (Giants) can be had and some wouldn't cost much at all. I would be particularly interested in guys like Peralta, Burton, Meredith, and Chulk, but really any of those guys would be improvements over some arms currently in our pen.

In terms of our offense, a few names come to mind who could help and are available: Marcus Thames (1B/OF, Tigers), Richie Sexson (1B, Mariners), and Juan Rivera (OF, Angels). I think that it's time for Delgado to be released -- his power is essentially gone, he's clueless against any decent pitcher, and he's slow on defense. Granted, Sexson isn't too much of an upgrade, but he's still an upgrade, he's certainly available, has more pop, and like Delgado, his contract is up after this season. I think he'd be worth the risk since he's still somewhat young. Thames and Rivera are two guys I think, if given some playing time, they could really produce. Considering Delgado is worthless, I wouldn't mind trying a guy like Thames at first and even give him some time in the OF since Alou/Chavez/Pagan aren't cutting it in terms of the power needed from a corner. Rivera could also play the corner and produce well. The problem with trying to trade for a guy like Jason Bay or snaring a legit 1B is that the Mets lack the prospects to pull a move like that. Another thing to consider is the weak FA market for 1B. Teixeira is the only legit 1B out there, but he's also not worth what he'll be asking. If Chad Tracy proves to be healthy soon, he could also be a good option for the Mets (but he would have to be healthy).

With some changes (like acquiring Westbrook, a few relievers, and a few hitters), the Mets could become a playoff team, however, Omar has to act soon...This team needs help quickly.

Moe, I agree with every single thing you said, including the general tone of your post.
The problem with aquiring these guys is, who & what do we have to offer ? Vargus & Figgy aere thrown out there because we have nothing down on the farm to help.
Short of a salary dump by a desperate small market team that will take anyone breathing, who & what does Miniya have to offer ?

[moebarguy]

Westbrook is on the DL and the Indians only have interest in tradin Byrd since he's a FA next season. Most of the reliever you suggested aren't very good. The ones you do suggest won't be traded.

I'd offer Delgado for Sexson. It was brought up somewhere recently. Both have similar contracts and are hitting the same. Historically they've had better success in each other's current league.

Westbrook will be back before June. Along with Byrd being a FA, he's also not nearly as good as his stats suggest he is, so getting a good prospect from a desperate team (say, the Yankees), would be a job well-done.

Joel Peralta: 5.79 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 15 K's, 2 BB's in 14 IP. That ERA is ugly, but everything else is looking pretty great. He's been a solid reliever the past three seasons as well.

Leo Nunez: 1.53 ERA, 0.79 WHIP, 13 K's, 4 BB's in 17.6 IP. Certainly having a good season, and was also good for the Royals in 2007.

Jared Burton: 3.86 ERA, 1.48 WHIP, 24 K's, 7 BB's in 21 IP. The WHIP is a little high, but his control has actually improved since last season. If he cuts down on some of his hits, his WHIP will look prettier.

Manny Corpas: 6.46 ERA, 1.86 WHIP, 12 K's, 15 BB's in 23.6 IP. Certainly not good stats, however, his bad stats were mostly during his closer duties. He's been much better in his past 6 outings, and if he regains himself, the Mets would have a good young reliever under contract through 2011 -- not to mention a reliever with closer experience, which could be useful once Wagner retires.

Matt Herges: 2.39 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 23 K's, 7 BB's in 26.3 IP. Herges has been around for awhile, has been terrible, has been good, but he's been doing great this season, and his stats are identical to his 2007 campaign with the Rockies.

Jason Grilli: 2.74 ERA, 1.48 WHIP, 21 K's, 13 BB's in 23 IP. He certainly wouldn't be my top option, but I'm sure he'd be made available, and it wouldn't take much to pry him from the Rockies. He'd be a solid long reliever.

Justin Germano: 5.88 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, 17 K's, 12 BB's in 41.3 IP. Not pretty stats, but the guy knows how to throw strikes. He also has starting experience, so he'd be a big step up over Figgy or Vargas.

Cla Meredith: 2.91 ERA, 0.97 WHIP, 12 K's, 3 BB's in 21.6 IP. He'd be the most expensive reliever on this list, but he'd probably be worth it. He's a legit reliever, and since the Padres are toast, they might be willing to deal him (his name has come up in trade talks in the past).

Vinnie Chulk: 2.89 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, 8 K's, 6 BB's in 18.6 IP. A few too many walks so far, but he's still looking solid. He was also a very good reliever for the Giants last season, posting close to a 4:1 K/BB ratio. It would only make sense for the Giants to have a fire-sale, and I can see Chulk netting them a decent prospect.

Tyler Walker: 6.63 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 16 K's, 4 BB's in 19 IP. Ugly ERA, but great K/BB ratio. He's also not high on my list, but he's a decent pen arm.

[whoisonit]

The team looked interested and animated, led by the skipper. The Atlanta series will show us whether it's a new energy or a 48 hour virus.

:sigh: ... oh well ... :ughh

[LostMet]

Guys, I have been a Mets fan for a long time and I have seen this story too many times...they are going no where in high gear this year... so just kick back and enjoy the game of baseball. I decided to just let go of the expectations of winning after the double header loss especially to Glavine and go back to being amused by their wacky approach to playing the game. It's not worth the aggravation.

For all of you who can't smell the coffee, hear the fat lady signing or see that this dog just won't hunt, and still believe despite all the empirical evidence to the contrary that they will "get hot" and turn this around, I wish you luck, peace, joy, and a strong stomach. I will stick to being amused by their ineptitude and if a miracle occurs I will be pleasantly surprised.:applaud:

[moebarguy]

Guys, I have been a Mets fan for a long time and I have seen this story too many times...they are going no where in high gear this year... so just kick back and enjoy the game of baseball. I decided to just let go of the expectations of winning after the double header loss especially to Glavine and go back to being amused by their wacky approach to playing the game. It's not worth the aggravation.

For all of you who can't smell the coffee, hear the fat lady signing or see that this dog just won't hunt, and still believe despite all the empirical evidence to the contrary that they will "get hot" and turn this around, I wish you luck, peace, joy, and a strong stomach. I will stick to being amused by their ineptitude and if a miracle occurs I will be pleasantly surprised.:applaud:

I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel merely because this team has the seeds for success, but we just need a few players and possibly a managerial change to make a run. By acquiring a starter (i.e. Jake Westbrook), a reliever (i.e. Cla Meredith), and possibly a 1B/OF (i.e. Marcus Thames), the Mets 2008 season could stand to be better.

[LostMet]

I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel merely because this team has the seeds for success, but we just need a few players and possibly a managerial change to make a run. By acquiring a starter (i.e. Jake Westbrook), a reliever (i.e. Cla Meredith), and possibly a 1B/OF (i.e. Marcus Thames), the Mets 2008 season could stand to be better.

I hear you. Maybe those things will happen. If it makes the Mets better then great but there is a lot really wrong with this ship from Omar, Bernazard, accountability in general, back stabbing, lack of hustle, too many mistakes, and inconsistency across the board , to have three players fix it.

[moebarguy]

I hear you. Maybe those things will happen. If it makes the Mets better then great but there is a lot really wrong with this ship from Omar, Bernazard, accountability in general, back stabbing, lack of hustle, too many mistakes, and inconsistency across the board , to have three players fix it.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are various teams who are more talented now/long run than the Mets are -- the Diamondbacks in particular -- but as we all know, anything can happen in the playoffs. The Mets are just 3.5 games behind first and the wild card, so make some trades can only help their cause.

I like the idea of adding Westbrook, because he doesn't walk batters and he can last 6+ innings. That can only have a positive ripple effect on our bullpen, who are relentlessly overworked. Another thing to consider is that Westbrook is under contract for the next two seasons, so it would lessen the blow when we lose Oliver Perez to FA.

Trading for a reliever like Cla Meredith will be pricey, but it will be worth every penny. The guy is one of the best relievers in baseball, and he also has closer-material. It's a big difference to have Cla Meredith handling the 8th as opposed to Aaron Heilman or any other reliever in the Mets' pen. He can also take over for Wagner when his contract is up.

Lastly, adding a guy like Marcus Thames, who plays both 1B and OF, could really be the secret ingredient to success. As much as I'd like Delgado to go, it would be hard to find someone who could replace him full-time -- which is why I propose a platoon between Delgado and Thames. Thames has a ton of power, and is excellent against lefties (.286 BA, .348 OBP, 3 HR, and 10 RBI this season). Delgado is dreadful against lefties, but can sort of hold his own against righties (.225 BA, .333 OBP, 3 HR, and 14 RBI this season). Thames can also sub for Alou in LF when the old man needs rest.

I also think bringing in someone to steal AB's from Delgado could motivate him to play harder...which I think is the Mets biggest problem. The Mets honestly, with few exceptions, don't look like they want to win. Bringing in some fresh faces could help reverse that mindset. A new manager could also help too.

[LostMet]

On May 15th on MLB Trade rumors it was noted that the Rockies may well want to trade Holliday. He will make 13 mil next year. He wants a deal longer than 4 years. It also said the Rockies have enough good players in the high minors but want to reload their AA and lower levels. Since I am convinced the Mets are bound for nowhere as currently configured, I would go hard for Holliday if at all possible. I think the Mets have some very interesting young prospects, they certainly could use a guy like Holliday and they have the cash to pay him. He is 25 and would be a wonderful addition to a core group of Wright, Beltran, Reyes and Church. He plays left and has pop. I know Alou can hit but he is always hurt. It is time to move on. Pay off Delgado, offer Alou the bench and spot duty or bye bye, and bring up one of Evans or Carp to see what they can do at first base. If you can get one of Meredith or Westbrook as well then that would be a good move for the future.

[moebarguy]

On May 15th on MLB Trade rumors it was noted that the Rockies may well want to trade Holliday. He will make 13 mil next year. He wants a deal longer than 4 years. It also said the Rockies have enough good players in the high minors but want to reload their AA and lower levels. Since I am convinced the Mets are bound for nowhere as currently configured, I would go hard for Holliday if at all possible. I think the Mets have some very interesting young prospects, they certainly could use a guy like Holliday and they have the cash to pay him. He is 25 and would be a wonderful addition to a core group of Wright, Beltran, Reyes and Church. He plays left and has pop. I know Alou can hit but he is always hurt. It is time to move on. Pay off Delgado, offer Alou the bench and spot duty or bye bye, and bring up one of Evans or Carp to see what they can do at first base. If you can get one of Meredith or Westbrook as well then that would be a good move for the future.

I would love to add Holliday, but the Mets have a pretty weak farm system right now...surely another team could offer the Rockies more.

[NYMets523]

I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel merely because this team has the seeds for success, but we just need a few players and possibly a managerial change to make a run. By acquiring a starter (i.e. Jake Westbrook), a reliever (i.e. Cla Meredith), and possibly a 1B/OF (i.e. Marcus Thames), the Mets 2008 season could stand to be better.

1) The Indians aren't trading Westbrook. The only guy they would trade is Paul Byrd. I would rather pursue Greg Maddux or Kevin Millwood.
2) What do you give up for Meredith?
3) What do you give up for Thames?

I always hear "Omar should acquire players X, Y, and Z." Unfortunately saying that doesn't magically put them on the roster.

[whoisonit]

Guys, I have been a Mets fan for a long time and I have seen this story too many times...they are going no where in high gear this year... so just kick back and enjoy the game of baseball. I decided to just let go of the expectations of winning after the double header loss especially to Glavine and go back to being amused by their wacky approach to playing the game. It's not worth the aggravation.

For all of you who can't smell the coffee, hear the fat lady signing or see that this dog just won't hunt, and still believe despite all the empirical evidence to the contrary that they will "get hot" and turn this around, I wish you luck, peace, joy, and a strong stomach. I will stick to being amused by their ineptitude and if a miracle occurs I will be pleasantly surprised.:applaud:

I undersatand exactly what you're saying & am at the same point myself. I guess you have to be of a certian age to feel like this. Actually, it's quite liberating ! What fools we are for our hubris of expectations.

You know, I agree with just about everything you've posted in the different threads.

[bobby valentine]

Bring Back Bobby Valentine

[AutographCollector]

Bring Back Bobby Valentine

How many threads are you just going to type that? I think that we get your point.

Signing Holiday? Oh heck yeah!!! Trade a few of our prospects, and give the Rox some $ to boot.

[moebarguy]

1) The Indians aren't trading Westbrook. The only guy they would trade is Paul Byrd. I would rather pursue Greg Maddux or Kevin Millwood.
2) What do you give up for Meredith?
3) What do you give up for Thames?

I always hear "Omar should acquire players X, Y, and Z." Unfortunately saying that doesn't magically put them on the roster.

We don't know who is and who isn't available. The Mets need a good starter, a good reliever, and a guy who can mash lefties (who can play 1B/OF).

Maddux probably will not want to be in a Mets uniform, and Millwood is easily one of the worst pitchers in baseball (and he has a big salary).

Meredith comes to mind because the Padres look like they're in trouble. Thames is under-used in Detroit. Who knows...

[LostMet]

I undersatand exactly what you're saying & am at the same point myself. I guess you have to be of a certian age to feel like this. Actually, it's quite liberating ! What fools we are for our hubris of expectations.

You know, I agree with just about everything you've posted in the different threads.

I appreciate it. I assume you are an "experienced" fan by your Agee avatar so I know you have seen it all too. The Mets are an interesting team to root for but I have always had fun with it.

[LostMet]

Signing Holiday? Oh heck yeah!!! Trade a few of our prospects, and give the Rox some $ to boot.

I can sense you are frustrated and you should be as a fan. Up until Tuesday I was there with you. Look I am not saying it would be easy and I am no judge of the Mets ability to get a deal like that done. What the article said was the Rockies were interested specifically in lower level prospects. I don't know why, but that is what it said. Therefore, I think the Mets have a bunch of AA and lower guys who have upside and may be interesting. It certainly should be investigated by management.

What I do know is the Mets have to rid themselves of several players on this team to really move forward next year and beyond. Individually the players may seem good or at least decent but for whatever reason they aren't a "team' in the sense of picking each other up making big/ clutch plays etc, etc. So at least move or dump Delgado, Alou, Castillo (yes, I know they won't do it because of money...but it needs to be done) to send a message to the rest and get on with putting this team into a shape where it can actually win down the road and not pretend to be good just to sell seats. To all the Alou defenders, he is a great hitter and I like him but he just doesn't play enough. So he ties up a roster slot where we need consistent power and production.

I didn't mention Beltran because I think he is coming around. Even his outs are hard hits and he is so smooth in the outfield that I feel many take his defense for granted. he is not a rah rah type but he cares.

[NY16CATCHER]

We don't know who is and who isn't available. The Mets need a good starter, a good reliever, and a guy who can mash lefties (who can play 1B/OF).

Maddux probably will not want to be in a Mets uniform, and Millwood is easily one of the worst pitchers in baseball (and he has a big salary).

Meredith comes to mind because the Padres look like they're in trouble. Thames is under-used in Detroit. Who knows...

You have to look at who is going to blow up their rosters first. San Diego is on record as saying they will be doing that shortly unless things take a very unexpected turn for the better (and with Young and Bard both going on the DL yesterday I think that is not going to happen), so maybe Merideth is in play for the right deal. And Maddux will probably get a chance to leave if he asks for it. Remember Maddux will dictate where he goes and NY is not a likely destination for him. He'll go to the Braves for nostalgia sake or to a contender where he can win and go out on top. But Kevin Towers will be looking for young talent with big league potential in return. He won't be looking for vets, or players on the downside of their careers. He's said so. So when you look at that context, the Mets aren't the most attractive trade partners. He's not going to want someone like Delgado or Heilman in a deal.

Detroit might blow up the roster a bit shortly, but if you look at their MLB roster, and their AAA roster, they don't have much need for veterans either. They will need younger, prospect type ball players to replace the pieces surrendered in the deal to get Cabrera and Willis from the Marlins. Even if Thames or Inge were to become available, I am not sure the Mets have the right stuff to go outbid other potential suitors for them.

[whoisonit]

the Mets aren't the most attractive trade partners. He's not going to want someone like Delgado or Heilman in a deal.


You're correct, the Mets aren't attractive trading partners. What have we got to move ? I surely don't want to see anymore farm guys leave for some type of "proven" player. We've been watching that same bad movie for years now. Besides, there's not a whole lot down there.

Any mention of trading Delgado is a waste. DFA is the only option. I believe Heilman still has a great deal of trade value. It seems the myth still exists that he is the greatest starting pitcher in a ML pen, that all he needs is a rotation slot. There are boatloads of teams with 3rd, and in some cases 2nd, starters who barely belong in the bigs.

Surely there's someone out there that thinks he would be a huge 'upgrade' & is willing to play patty cake with us.

Whatever, it is time for sweeping, wholesale changes. Yes. even change for the sake of change.

Blow up the Mets !

[whoisonit]

30-32.

At what point do people think it's not too early to feel this is a seriously flawed team, going no where and worst of all, boring and uninteresting ?
June 30 ?
AS break ?
August 15 ?
Sept 1 ?

When do people stop saying they'll "be fine" & "they'll come around" & "it's only ______(fill in a date), get off the ledge !" ?

[LostMet]

30-32.

At what point do people think it's not too early to feel this is a seriously flawed team, going no where and worst of all, boring and uninteresting ?
June 30 ?
AS break ?
August 15 ?
Sept 1 ?

When do people stop saying they'll "be fine" & "they'll come around" & "it's only ______(fill in a date), get off the ledge !" ?

It was the middle of May for me. You have to appreciate the many different ways the Mets find to lose.:crazy Like I said before, I have already dumped my expectations. I think the ball is in Omar's court now because it just isn't going to happen with this bunch. They are 82-82 over the last 162. I think that is a big enough sample to say it's time for some changes. The next "interesting" part of the season will be the trading deadline to see if we can move a few of these guys for some prospects. Probably not, but one can dream. LOL.

[whoisonit]

Daily News writer Adam Rubin excorciates Omar Miniya for assembling a team that is essentialy hopeless.

Good to see the creator of this mess finaly start getting his due. The focus on Willie Randolph has been over the top and over played.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2008/06/09/2008-06-09_with_aging_players_barren_farm_system_om.html

[NYMets523]

Daily News writer Adam Rubin excorciates Omar Miniya for assembling a team that is essentialy hopeless.

Good to see the creator of this mess finaly start getting his due. The focus on Willie Randolph has been over the top and over played.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2008/06/09/2008-06-09_with_aging_players_barren_farm_system_om.html

Rubin is a Omar-basher/Willie-apologist.

The criticism of Willie is justified.

[whoisonit]

Rubin is a Omar-basher/Willie-apologist.

The criticism of Willie is justified.

Please state exactly what part of the article you do not agree with as it concerns Omar Miniya and the team he has assembled.

Please state why exactly criticism of the manager is "justified". Since we already know you will say he's just no good at the double switch and never uses the wheel, you get those as a gimmee. It would be far more interesting to hear about something that actually has merit.

Here, I'll start for you " Randolph is stupid because he doesn't know how to use his bullpen ... "

[NYMets523]

Please state exactly what part of the article you do not agree with as it concerns Omar Miniya and the team he has assembled.

I didn't bother. I read a piece by Rubin titled "Blame everyone" and he went on a rant blaming Omar and only Omar (ironic for an article titled Blame Everyone). And made the Pedro signing out to be one of the worst free agent signings in the history of professional sports. I have no interest in reading any of his other works since he's clearly biased.


Please state why exactly criticism of the manager is "justified". Since we already know you will say he's just no good at the double switch and never uses the wheel, you get those as a gimmee. It would be far more interesting to hear about something that actually has merit.

Here, I'll start for you " Randolph is stupid because he doesn't know how to use his bullpen ... "

Willie is stupid and the wrong personality for this clubhouse. Last year he kept saying stuff like "the champagne will just taste sweeter". That "everything will go our way no matter what" attitude killed the team. He lost control last year and should have been fired. Now, the team continues to suck expecting things will, again, fall in place for them and that is the manager's fault because he created that attitude. He needs to go to shakeup the team and because he's a horrible manager.

[whoisonit]

I didn't bother. I read a piece by Rubin titled "Blame everyone" and he went on a rant blaming Omar and only Omar (ironic for an article titled Blame Everyone). And made the Pedro signing out to be one of the worst free agent signings in the history of professional sports. I have no interest in reading any of his other works since he's clearly biased.

That is a totaly valid reason for ignoring the article. I myself haven't read much of anything he's written, not because I don't like him, but because columnists don't interest me that much. In the long gone days when I read all of them, every day, I found myself discusted with people like Wallace Mattews, Bill Madden & most of all, Mike Lupica. I know Rubin only from some Q & A in chats on other forums, he didn't seem like a complete idiot.

The article caught my eye only because it addressed the systemic weeknesses of the entire franchise. 4 years is a long time, especially when your not building from within. There is definitly plenty of blame to go around. Usually the focus is on the players and the manager. Well, alot of the players stink. And Randolph is as good as, say Torre, who is nothing special. If we had a team like the late 90's yankees nobody would really pay attention to what Randolph is and isn't good at. But we don't. We have the late aughts Mets. For the price, they stink. That's not Randlphs fault, that's Miniya's. He built em.

I agree that Randolph is the wrong leader for this team, but at the same time, I don't think any manager could win with this hopeless disaster.

[PVNICK]

From here on out I think Minaya should start getting called out for his share of the blame. He was the one that brought Randolph out last week to the press like some truant on detention and then proceeded to pat himself on the back for assembling a WS team. Omar even had the audacity to give himself credit for Nick Evans' 3 hit day the day before.

He might ask why are Wright and Reyes the last even semi-regulars produced by the team, with the execption I guess of Gomez who was part of the trade for Sanatana. Is it that hard to come up with a 2B under 35? Valentin, Castillo, Easley. I also don't think anyoen can ever complain about injury prone players like Alou, Pedro and El Duque being injured.

[LostMet]

I think Omar has had enough time. He built a good fantasy team with big names now he has to realize it isn't ging to work and go about building a real winning team. Look at the resources used by the Mets and look at the Marlins who are reloading AGAIN while we flounder. At some point even the most ardent ,true believer has to stop and smell the coffee.

[moebarguy]

I think Omar has had enough time. He built a good fantasy team with big names now he has to realize it isn't ging to work and go about building a real winning team. Look at the resources used by the Mets and look at the Marlins who are reloading AGAIN while we flounder. At some point even the most ardent ,true believer has to stop and smell the coffee.

I agree. Omar has been successful to a certain extent, but he is absolutely clueless when it comes to building a farm system, assembling a bench, and coming up with Plan B when injuries occur.

Even that idea that he thinks this team is playoff-caliber is a joke. He's got to make changes or he should be changed.

[NYMets523]

I agree that Randolph is the wrong leader for this team, but at the same time, I don't think any manager could win with this hopeless disaster.

I disagree. This team has talent but a horrible attitude. There are managers who could make something out of this team. Problem is most of them already have a job.

[moebarguy]

I disagree. This team has talent but a horrible attitude. There are managers who could make something out of this team. Problem is most of them already have a job.

The team certainly has some talent, but not enough. When Endy Chavez and Fernando Tatis are your starting corners, you're not going far...

Also, this bullpen is terrible. I think Billy will shake out of his slump, but Heilman has been terrible all season, Duaner Sanchez is nowhere close to where he was two years ago, Feliciano is walking way too many batters, and Smith is erratic (when he can't find that arm slot, he's worthless).

Omar needs to make a trade for an average/above-average outfielder. God knows when/if Church will be healthy enough to play again this season, and Alou is more fragile than a piece of tissue paper.

There's no doubt that on paper, this Mets team is a good one, but they can't seem to stay healthy enough to play or they can't find consistency (i.e. right now, the starters are pitching well, but the bullpen is blowing it).

Today was a bad bad game...

[NYMets523]

You need more than an average OF. Omar needs to investigate Adam Dunn and Magglio Ordonez. They're everyday players who will make a difference. They might be expendable given the state of their teams. Ordonez is a stretch but worth checking out.

BTW, forget CC in your sig. We already have an ace lefty and he weighs 100 lbs less.

[moebarguy]

You need more than an average OF. Omar needs to investigate Adam Dunn and Magglio Ordonez. They're everyday players who will make a difference. They might be expendable given the state of their teams. Ordonez is a stretch but worth checking out.

BTW, forget CC in your sig. We already have an ace lefty and he weighs 100 lbs less.

Even an average outfielder would do. Do you realize how below average our starting outfield is? Besides Beltran, we're starting two guys who barely deserve to be in the majors (yes, Endy is great defensively, but he's also hitting around .200)...

Despite his weight, I would still love to have Sabathia. Pitching wins...

[NYMets523]

Even an average outfielder would do. Do you realize how below average our starting outfield is? Besides Beltran, we're starting two guys who barely deserve to be in the majors (yes, Endy is great defensively, but he's also hitting around .200)...
Which is why you need more than above average corner OF. There's no production from catcher, 1B, and both corner OF. You need a big bat like Dunn or Ordonez to compensate for that.


Despite his weight, I would still love to have Sabathia. Pitching wins...
You'd love to have CC? He's having a bad year, weighs 300 lbs, and would cost too much. Starting pitching is not the weakness of this team. It's the bullpen and lineup that are the problem and they need to be addressed.

[moebarguy]

Which is why you need more than above average corner OF. There's no production from catcher, 1B, and both corner OF. You need a big bat like Dunn or Ordonez to compensate for that.


You'd love to have CC? He's having a bad year, weighs 300 lbs, and would cost too much. Starting pitching is not the weakness of this team. It's the bullpen and lineup that are the problem and they need to be addressed.

My point is that we have guys like Jose Reyes, David Wright, and Carlos Beltran. If we were to fill in the two outfield slots with guys like Marcus Thames and Juan Rivera, we would get at least league-average production -- which is all we need since we have three big-time players already in our lineup. The problem with our lineup is that after Beltran, our lineup is well below league-average. Essentially, all we need is league average production from the bottom half of our lineup...it would make a world of difference, and wouldn't cost us as much as acquiring a big gun like the players mentioned above. Another thing to consider is that we don't have the prospects to acquire a big gun hitter anyway...

As for Sabathia having a "bad year," the only reason his stats looks like they do (4.34 ERA and 1.34 WHIP, which aren't too bad) is because he had a terrible April (7.76 ERA and 1.80 WHIP in 26.6 IP). He has been terrific the past two months (2.42 ERA and 1.11 WHIP in 59.3 IP). If anything, he would possibly come at a cheaper price because of his mediocre overall stats and his impending free agency. It's worth a shot to see what they would want.

[NYMets523]

My point is that we have guys like Jose Reyes, David Wright, and Carlos Beltran. If we were to fill in the two outfield slots with guys like Marcus Thames and Juan Rivera, we would get at least league-average production -- which is all we need since we have three big-time players already in our lineup. The problem with our lineup is that after Beltran, our lineup is well below league-average. Essentially, all we need is league average production from the bottom half of our lineup...it would make a world of difference, and wouldn't cost us as much as acquiring a big gun like the players mentioned above. Another thing to consider is that we don't have the prospects to acquire a big gun hitter anyway...
Those 3 guys aren't even hitting on a consistent basis. Beltran has been bad, Reyes has started to hit, but Wright has been on-and-off all season. We need more than league average from LF or RF because we're getting nothing from the other corner OF, 1B, C, and to a lesser extent 2B. The middle of our lineup is a huge weakness since no one can hit a home run.


As for Sabathia having a "bad year," the only reason his stats looks like they do (4.34 ERA and 1.34 WHIP, which aren't too bad) is because he had a terrible April (7.76 ERA and 1.80 WHIP in 26.6 IP). He has been terrific the past two months (2.42 ERA and 1.11 WHIP in 59.3 IP). If anything, he would possibly come at a cheaper price because of his mediocre overall stats and his impending free agency. It's worth a shot to see what they would want.
It's an enormous waste of the few resources we have. The starting pitching is the strength of this team. Their lineup is garbage and the bullpen is killing them recently. Those need to be addressed before the rotation. I'd rather get Nate Robertson if we're adding a starter since he's a lot cheaper and won't be a rental.

[moebarguy]

Those 3 guys aren't even hitting on a consistent basis. Beltran has been bad, Reyes has started to hit, but Wright has been on-and-off all season. We need more than league average from LF or RF because we're getting nothing from the other corner OF, 1B, C, and to a lesser extent 2B. The middle of our lineup is a huge weakness since no one can hit a home run.


It's an enormous waste of the few resources we have. The starting pitching is the strength of this team. Their lineup is garbage and the bullpen is killing them recently. Those need to be addressed before the rotation. I'd rather get Nate Robertson if we're adding a starter since he's a lot cheaper and won't be a rental.

Well, the reality of the matter is that we're not going to get another C or 2B. Of the big gun outfielders potentially available, there will be teams with better prospects to offer.

I agree that our few resources could be spent in other areas, so Sabathia isn't happening, but that doesn't negate the fact that he is still quite good and would be very helpful.

[LostMet]

I personally think this year is toast BUT if you want a one year, cheap outfielder who can still hit decently and has been on many winning teams then you sign Kenny Lofton for the rest of the year. He is old, but he plays a lot and he is still a decent defender and he hits better than Pagan, Chavez, Tatis, Nunez and Evans combined. He also doesn't cost you anything but a little cash money.