Did Babe Ruth know who Josh Gibson was?

[Blackout]

did Babe Ruth ever get to see Josh Gibson play?


I know he faced a young Satchell Paige and blasted a home run and Satchell had some boy go and retreive it so Babe could sign it.

[Victory Faust]

I would think Babe Ruth would've at least heard of Gibson, even if he'd never actually seen him play in person.

[jjpm74]

Either way,

This is nice to see. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/sports/baseball/07grandsons.html?ex=1349496000&en=07778eccab7c96c7&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

[hairmetalfreek]

Either way,

This is nice to see. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/sports/baseball/07grandsons.html?ex=1349496000&en=07778eccab7c96c7&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

I agree with you 100%! That painting is great. I wish I had kept up with my artwork that I did as a kid and developed my talents. I can barely draw a stick figure now.

[Brian McKenna]

I don't recall ever hearing Ruth attend a Negro league game. Ruth guys?

[jjpm74]

I don't recall ever hearing Ruth attend a Negro league game. Ruth guys?

About the only time I can think of where he may have was when Ruth, Gehrig and others barnstormed together on the West Coast.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

We need to remember that Ruth was 16 years older than Gibson. By the time Gibson was making a name for himself Ruth was at the end of his career.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

About the only time I can think of where he may have was when Ruth, Gehrig and others barnstormed together on the West Coast.

Proctor, CF mentioned that Ruth and Gibson may have competed in a HR Derby contest in Cuba and that this story will part of an upcoming HBO documentary.

[Proctor, CF]

Proctor, CF mentioned that Ruth and Gibson may have competed in a HR Derby contest in Cuba and that this story will part of an upcoming HBO documentary.

I'm planning to get further details on that for you, HW. I heard it was actually in Puerto Rico that Babe & Josh slugged it out. At least one apparently credible witness claims to have seen it, but it's being very carefully checked out before it's aired with any certainty.

HBO is the proposed venue for the documentary on Ruth's intercultural interactions and popularity - but it could ultimately land on another network. The African American director is a leading documentary filmmaker on sports.

[jjpm74]

Does anyone have the dates Gibson played at Yankee Stadium and were they ever cross checked against the Yankee schedule from that era? That would have been another possible time they could have met.

[Proctor, CF]

Does anyone have the dates Gibson played at Yankee Stadium and were they ever cross checked against the Yankee schedule from that era? That would have been another possible time they could have met.

Well, the famous out-of-Yankee-Stadium home run was reported to have taken place in 1934, I believe. So, there's some overlap.

How could Babe Ruth not heard of Josh Gibson? He (Ruth) was friends with Black sports heros, and other Black celebreties. He competed against Black ballplayers. And he certainly would have heard there was a "Black Babe Ruth" - one that played in New York - at Yankees Stadium!. It's inconceivable he would not have heard of the Josh Gibson.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'm planning to get further details on that for you, HW. I heard it was actually in Puerto Rico that Babe & Josh slugged it out. At least one apparently credible witness claims to have seen it, but it's being very carefully checked out before it's aired with any certainty.
Thanks, Proctor! :thumbsup: I would think that this happened some time in the early or mid 1930s? I don't think Gibson was well known in the baseball world before 1932. That is just three years from Ruth's retirement.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

How could Babe Ruth not heard of Josh Gibson? He (Ruth) was friends with Black sports heros, and other Black celebreties. He competed against Black ballplayers. And he certainly would have heard there was a "Black Babe Ruth" - one that played in New York - at Yankees Stadium!. It's inconceivable he would not have heard of the Josh Gibson.
I'm sure we can agree that Ruth knew who Josh Gibson was. I'm sure a player called the "Black Babe Ruth" would catch the Babe's attention. Whether he played against him or saw him play or when did Ruth first hear about Gibson is subject to conjecture.. There the matter of the 16 year (almost 17 year) age difference. From my readings Gibson probably didn't become well known in the Negro league until about 1932-33. How much time did it take for the white baseball world to learn about Gibson after this point in time? :shrug: And when did Gibson acquire his moniker, the "Black Babe Ruth"?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I'm planning to get further details on that for you, HW. I heard it was actually in Puerto Rico that Babe & Josh slugged it out. At least one apparently credible witness claims to have seen it, but it's being very carefully checked out before it's aired with any certainty.

HBO is the proposed venue for the documentary on Ruth's intercultural interactions popularity - but it could ultimately land on another network. The African American director is a leading documentary filmmakers on sports.

It's certainly possible but it seems that if they ever did face off we would have heard something about that after all these years. It could be, I would be surprised.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Well, the famous out-of-Yankee-Stadium home run was reported to have taken place in 1934, I believe. So, there's some overlap.

How could Babe Ruth not heard of Josh Gibson? He (Ruth) was friends with Black sports heros, and other Black celebreties. He competed against Black ballplayers. And he certainly would have heard there was a "Black Babe Ruth" - one that played in New York - at Yankees Stadium!. It's inconceivable he would not have heard of the Josh Gibson.

That Gibson drive was long but not an out of the park. In one interview Gibson himself tells of the ball hitting the back wall or hitting the wall on a bounce. In another interview, no mention of the wall, only that he hit one into the bullpen.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Does anyone have the dates Gibson played at Yankee Stadium and were they ever cross checked against the Yankee schedule from that era? That would have been another possible time they could have met.

The very first game played at Yankee Stadium by black teams was July 5, 1930, Baltimore Black Sox and Lincoln Giants. Gibson played for the Homestead Grays at that time. The grays did play some games there later in 1930. From what I have, no dates but supposedly Josh played 9 games at Yankee Stadium in his first 9 years, his career began in 1930. I think he may have played a good number in 1939, some doubleheaders at NY.

[Proctor, CF]

The very first game played at Yankee Stadium by black teams was July 5, 1930, Baltimore Black Sox and Lincoln Giants. Gibson played for the Homestead Grays at that time. The grays did play some games there later in 1930. From what I have, no dates but supposedly Josh played 9 games at Yankee Stadium in his first 9 years, his career began in 1930. I think he may have played a good number in 1939, some doubleheaders at NY.

Here's an excellent summary of Gibson's games at Yankee Stadium, ShoelessJoe: http://www.thediamondangle.com/marasco/negleg/joshyank.html

I personally don't believe there's enough evidence to conclude he hit one out, only that there was a report he did - by Chicago American Giant, Jack Marshall - who claimed, I think, that Gibson hit it out over the left field third deck - in 1934.

[Proctor, CF]

And when did Gibson acquire his moniker, the "Black Babe Ruth"?



Excellent question, HW. I don't know. But, because of the stunning distances he was hitting very early on, I imagine it was in the early Thirties - while Ruth was still playing. With Gibson hitting such distances - especially in Yankee Stadium - while The Babe was still playing for the Yankees, convinces me Ruth would have heard about him.

Now, of course, The Bambino may have not have actually remembered his name. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Proctor, CF]

It's certainly possible but it seems that if they ever did face off we would have heard something about that after all these years. It could be, I would be surprised.

I obviously have no personal knowledge of any home run derby between Ruth & Gibson, ShoelessJoe, nor can I vouch for the alleged witness. All I can relay is that a report has recently surfaced attesting that such a derby actually took place in Puerto Rico - a report from someone who claims to have seen it. The provenance of the report appears, so far, to be legitimate - but, again, I certainly can't say with authority or first-hand evidence. I received the information (second-hand) from people leading the investigation into the claim, who have personally interviewed the alleged witness, who was a young baseball player and fan in Puerto Rico back in the Thirties.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I obviously have no personal knowledge of any home run derby between Ruth & Gibson, ShoelessJoe, nor can I vouch for the alleged witness. All I can relay is that a report has recently surfaced attesting that such a derby actually took place in Puerto Rico - a report from someone who claims to have seen it. The provenance of the report appears, so far, to be legitimate - but, again, I certainly can't say.

Is there a date or at least a year given for this Ruth/Gibson meeting?

[Proctor, CF]

Is there a date or at least a year given for this Ruth/Gibson meeting?

There was a year, I believe, HW, but I don't have that information available to me. I don't know of any exact date. I'll try to get a better fix, but I can't promise anything on that right now. The account is still being stringently vetted.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I obviously have no personal knowledge of any home run derby between Ruth & Gibson, ShoelessJoe, nor can I vouch for the alleged witness. All I can relay is that a report has recently surfaced attesting that such a derby actually took place in Puerto Rico - a report from someone who claims to have seen it. The provenance of the report appears, so far, to be legitimate - but, again, I certainly can't say with authority or first-hand evidence. I received the information (second-hand) from people leading the investigation into the claim, who have personally interviewed the alleged witness, who was a young baseball player and fan in Puerto Rico back in the Thirties.

It of course is possible, my belief that it most likely would have surfaced before now.

Not to say it never happened, could have, interesting to hear about it if it did take place.

To answer the question of some others, Babe certainly had to know of Josh Gibson. I read some articles about Babe and some other black players, after some exhibition games sharing stories about the game.

[Blackout]

do you have those articles?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

do you have those articles?

Don't have the articles. They were not in any news archives but were in some books that I read bits of in the public library. Don't recall the names, going back a few years. One of them could have been " The Power And The Darkness." Don't recall the black players but they said Ruth would sit and talk to them after some games. Share a "chaw" of tobacco, found him very friendly and fun to swap stories with. I do recall that they never mentioned Gibson coming into the conversation, but it's certainly possible he was spoken of.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Here's an excellent summary of Gibson's games at Yankee Stadium, ShoelessJoe: http://www.thediamondangle.com/marasco/negleg/joshyank.html

I personally don't believe there's enough evidence to conclude he hit one out, only that there was a report he did - by Chicago American Giant, Jack Marshall - who claimed, I think, that Gibson hit it out over the left field third deck - in 1934.

I was at that site a few days ago, it's a good one.

Here are two articles from a book I read at the public library.

[Brian McKenna]

Ruth in immigration records:

Name: George Ruth
Birth: abt 1895 - Maryland
Departure: Southampton, England
Arrival: 20 Feb 1935 - New York, New York

Name: George Ruth
Birth: abt 1895 - Maryland
Departure: Hamilton, Bermuda
Arrival: 26 Feb 1937 - New York, New York

Name: George H Ruth
Birth: abt 1895 - Maryland
Departure: Hamilton, Bermuda
Arrival: 4 Mar 1938 - New York, New York

Passport application:
Name: George Hermier Ruth
Father: George H Ruth
Birth: 7 Feb 1894 - Baltimore, Maryland
Civil: 21 Oct 1920
Other: Nyc, NY

Gibson in immigration records:

Name: Joshua Gibson
Birth: 21 Dec 1911 - Georgia
Departure: San Juan, Puerto Rico
Arrival: 21 Mar 1934 - New York, New York

Name: Joshua Gibson
Birth: abt 1911 - Georgia
Departure: La Guaira, Venezuela
Arrival: 8 Aug 1940 - New York, New York

Name: Joshua Gibson
Birth: abt 1912 - Pennsylvania
Departure: Azua, Dominican Republic
Arrival: 20 Jul 1937 - New York, New York

Name: Joshua Gibson
Birth: abt 1912 - Puerto Rico
Departure: San Juan, Puerto Rico
Arrival: 12 Mar 1942 - New York, New York

Though, Gibson was in and out of the country much more than this.

[bryanac625]

The other question not asked here is, "Did Josh Gibson know who Babe Ruth was?" The answer is obviously yes. And certainly, we can conclude that Gibson was an admirer of longball hitting (his "800 HR" total has been disputed here but that's another story) he would have certainly admired the hitting of Babe Ruth. Therefore, if he had access to Yankee Stadium, either through games played there or as a spectator, or in MLB/Negro League barnstorming exhibitions, he could have crossed paths with Ruth and discussed hitting. Then this goes back to answering the original question.

The societal aspects of the 1930s notwithstanding, how much did black and white players get to know each other? I doubt people went out for drinks or dinner together, even in New York, but were their telephone calls or letters? Still, I can't say I've ever heard of any friendships between black and white ballplayers at that time.

[Proctor, CF]

The societal aspects of the 1930s notwithstanding, how much did black and white players get to know each other? I doubt people went out for drinks or dinner together, even in New York, but were their telephone calls or letters? Still, I can't say I've ever heard of any friendships between black and white ballplayers at that time.



I believe Ruth was friends with quite a few Black celebrities, including ballplayers. Pop Lloyd, Joe Louis & even Bill Robinson come to mind - though I'm no authority on the subject, which is being thoroughly explored for the upcoming documentary mentioned above. I understand he also struck up many friendships with Negro Leaguers during exhibition & barnstorming.

[Brian McKenna]

Black clubs and white clubs certainly had intereaction. At times they played together but much more frequently they performed in the same cities and towns, especially in the spring when the major leaguers headed south.

As with any bunch of guys, some were sure to interact thus developing some communication between the black and white players. The booking agents and local baseball people probably also played a part in bringing the white and black players together merely by interacting with both groups.

The black players were probably more drawn to the white games than the other way around but surely some of the white players watched the black players perform.

It's doubtful though that much social interaction occurred away from the park. It's even less likely that personal correspondence was frequent.

[Brian McKenna]

I believe Ruth was friends with quite a few Black celebrities, including ballplayers. Pop Lloyd, Joe Louis & even Bill Robinson come to mind - though

Good point - every city had Jazz clubs and sporting clubs which attracted all kinds of people. Gus Greenlee in Pittsburgh (though not on Ruth's route) was one such source - his clubs brought singers, actors, celebrities, sportsmen and athletes from far and wide together.

Greenlee owned the Workingmen’s Pool Hall on Fullerton Street, the Sunset Café and the famous Crawford Grill at 1401 Wylie Avenue. The Grill, nearly a block long, became a Hill District, known as “Little Harlem,” hotspot. The third floor, known as Club Crawford, was a semi-private VIP section where the top Jazz performers of the day entertained. Over the years, Louis Armstrong, Dizzy Gillespie, Ella Fitzgerald, Stanley Turrentine, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway, Billy Eckstein, Lena Horne, Bill Robinson and Miles Davis performed for Greenlee’s audiences. The club became a hangout for both black and white entertainers and sportsmen. Steelers’ owner Andy Rooney was a friend of Greenlee’s and a frequent visitor at the Grill.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Good point - every city had Jazz clubs and sporting clubs which attracted all kinds of people. Gus Greenlee in Pittsburgh (though not on Ruth's route) was one such source - his clubs brought singers, actors, celebrities, sportsmen and athletes from far and wide together.

Greenlee owned the Workingmen’s Pool Hall on Fullerton Street, the Sunset Café and the famous Crawford Grill at 1401 Wylie Avenue. The Grill, nearly a block long, became a Hill District, known as “Little Harlem,” hotspot. The third floor, known as Club Crawford, was a semi-private VIP section where the top Jazz performers of the day entertained. Over the years, Louis Armstrong, Dizzy Gillespie, Ella Fitzgerald, Stanley Turrentine, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway, Billy Eckstein, Lena Horne, Bill Robinson and Miles Davis performed for Greenlee’s audiences. The club became a hangout for both black and white entertainers and sportsmen. Steelers’ owner Andy Rooney was a friend of Greenlee’s and a frequent visitor at the Grill.

That is some list, black entertainers All Stars.

[Proctor, CF]

Black clubs and white clubs certainly had intereaction. At times they played together but much more frequently they performed in the same cities and towns, especially in the spring when the major leaguers headed south.

As with any bunch of guys, some were sure to interact thus developing some communication between the black and white players. The booking agents and local baseball people probably also played a part in bringing the white and black players together merely by interacting with both groups.

The black players were probably more drawn to the white games than the other way around but surely some of the white players watched the black players perform.

It's doubtful though that much social interaction occurred away from the park. It's even less likely that personal correspondence was frequent.

How much of a role do you think Landis had in precluding more extensive interaction during Ruth's time, Brian?

[Brian McKenna]

From the get-go (in 1921) Landis had a problem with exhibition games. Funny how he increased his salary from $7,500 to $50,000 by "reluctantly" taking the baseball job, then he starts limited the lowly player's income potential.

He banned exhibition games because:
-outlaw players were involved
-pennant-winning players were involved
-crossing the border was involved
-black men were involved
-no exhibition games allowed after ten days after the major league season ended

White major leaguers still played black teams, for example:
-Dizzy Dean All-Stars in 1934
-Dick Bartell All-Stars in 1935
-Babe Ruth All-Stars 1921, 1925, 1935


The New York Cubans defeat the Babe Ruth All-stars, 6-1 and 15-3. Luis Tiant wins both games and holds Babe Ruth to one hit (1935)

[Proctor, CF]

From the get-go (in 1921) Landis had a problem with exhibition games. Funny how he increased his salary from $7,500 to $50,000 by "reluctantly" taking the baseball job, then he starts limited the lowly player's income potential.

He banned exhibition games because:
-outlaw players were involved
-pennant-winning players were involved
-crossing the border was involved
-black men were involved
-after a certain date in the year they weren't allowed

White major leaguers still played black teams, for example:
-Dizzy Dean All-Stars in 1934
-Dick Bartell All-Stars in 1935
-Babe Ruth All-Stars 1921, 1925, 1935

Babe & Lefty Gomez, most particularly, were very friendly & popular with Blacks in St. Petersburg. The Babe used to regularly interface with Black fans and families, and regularly gave autographed balls to kids who played with them at Campbell Park, the leading ballpark in town for Black ballplayers, including the excellent semi-pro teams. He was also very charitable to Black schools, hospitals, orphanages, families & individuals in town, as he was to all charities for the disadvantaged. Used to have Sunday afternoon dinners with some, too.

All reports indicate Ruth really liked and enjoyed Blacks, whom, in turn, really liked and enjoyed him.

[Brian McKenna]

I see hints that Landis issued a noncompete clause against black players but I can't locate specifically when (thus if) it happened. Truthfully though, along these lines his edict needn't be formal. Any help, anyone?

Was it in 1925 when Ruth lost some games to black clubs?

[Blackout]

lets not make this about Landis guys