swing eval

[joeR]

I would appreciate any input on my son's swing.
Is there a way I can help him with balance other than lots of swings?
video (www.gapcom.org/videos/test.wmv)

Thanks

[bbjunkie]

Two quick observations. Others, I'm sure, will answer in far more detail. First, he's pulling his head off the ball. He will have a lot of difficulty hitting a moving ball if he can't see it. Second, that bat looks too heavy for him. He's exerting himself just to get it around.

[Mark H]

Forget balance. It's an over rated concept and over used term in the context of hitting and not something I see in ML hitters. Control, yes. Balance, no. THIS is a pretty @#$% good swing for this age IMO. I'd talk to him a little about athletic position before and during the swing. Start with his butt a little more out and a little more tilt of the torso. As Steve says, think deadlift position. Oh, and work on eliminating the counter rotation of the upper torso before the swing. Common in tee swings. Do that and then let's see what his rotation and connection look like after that.

[Slapper23]

Joe, nice looking swing from the little guy. He looks quite young, so I'm impressed that's he is in the ball park of the swing you are after. Think dynamic balance and I don't see a balance problem. The kid looks great at contact. He may not be as athletic in his stance as he could be, but again, at contact he's right there. I wouldn't push the issue too much. You can tweak it a little (the stance) but let him work into it himself...with your guidance, of course. He does start somewhat counter-rotated and gets worse as he load, but as bbjunkie mentions, maybe it's related to bat size and weight...not sure.

Mike

[joeR]

Thank you much for the feedback and I will share your complements with him. When you say counter rotation are you talking about torso counter rotation where he raises the back shoulder, or tilting the bat towards the pitcher, or is one the cause and the other the effect? I think that may be overcompensating from dropping the hands down before the swing previously.
I'll have him play with stance some more and of course head movement. He changes stances like the wind as he emulates his favorites, so he will enjoy that. Are there any player clips you would recommend for stance?

[Mark H]

I'm talking about him turning his chest toward the catcher. Bad idea.

[joeR]

ok, thanks again.

[Stealth]

Forget balance. It's an over rated concept and over used term in the context of hitting and not something I see in ML hitters. Control, yes. Balance, no. THIS is a pretty @#$% good swing for this age IMO. I'd talk to him a little about athletic position before and during the swing. Start with his butt a little more out and a little more tilt of the torso. As Steve says, think deadlift position. Oh, and work on eliminating the counter rotation of the upper torso before the swing. Common in tee swings. Do that and then let's see what his rotation and connection look like after that.

Mark H - I read the second part in bold as a way to be more balanced in the swing. Is that a correct assesment? Can you clarify the two parts in bold?

[Mark H]

Before I answer, would this fall under your definition of balanced? http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=yjyhdfeiw1.zebra_s?p=4&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

It wouldn't fall under my definition of balanced. If it does yours then I need to understand your definition before I can give you a meaningful answer.

[PhilliesPhan22]

He's just a little kid. Let him hit and have fun. His swing isn't terrible, work with him when he gets a bit older.

[virg]

His head moves too early. Likely a result of the counter twist move. The "athletic position" idea is right for a starting (stance) position. Later struggle to correct balance is natural, and good, if it boosts the turn of the stroke while maintaining footing.

[CoachHenry]

His swing is pretty good already for his age. Two things I would do right away, then do a re-evaluation in a few weeks.

1 - Get is stance a bit wider. That will help stop his upper body moving so far back. It will also help promote some better rotation.

2 - Have him work on not wrapping his bat so much. Take a bit more neutral starting point with his hands back and try to get him to swing from that point. That will take time because as he starts his swing he may wrap it without realizing it. Remember that as a pitcher (when he gets that old) starts to throw and the batter starts his motion, any wrapping of the bat is going on while the ball is on the way. Then you have to rush everything else to get to a good contact point. Sometime in the future if you feel his bat need to be wrapped a bit it should be there BEFORE the pitchers delivery is made. That way he isn't going back then fighting to get it going forward again.

[Mark H]

Before I answer, would this fall under your definition of balanced? http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=yjyhdfeiw1.zebra_s?p=4&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

It wouldn't fall under my definition of balanced. If it does yours then I need to understand your definition before I can give you a meaningful answer.


And that's a sincere question. I just want to avoid discussions over misunderstanding of terms.

[hiddengem]

Forget balance. It's an over rated concept and over used term in the context of hitting and not something I see in ML hitters.


Why would he forget this? Its one of THE most common areas of hitting that professionals talk about and work on. Having good balance means you stay on your backside well, you don't lunge forward toward the pitcher and are able to stay under control of body even when you are looking fastball and get something offspead. I know you mentioned control..but balance and control go together.

What is normally happening when a hitter (at least at the higher levels) is going bad? He's late on the heater and early on the offspeed, why? Because he's off balance, going to get the ball, not under control.

Here is an example of good balance.
http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08155/soto273.gif (http://xs.to)

[4for4]

Why would he forget this? Its one of THE most common areas of hitting that professionals talk about and work on. Having good balance means you stay on your backside well, you don't lunge forward toward the pitcher and are able to stay under control of body even when you are looking fastball and get something offspead. I know you mentioned control..but balance and control go together.

What is normally happening when a hitter (at least at the higher levels) is going bad? He's late on the heater and early on the offspeed, why? Because he's off balance, going to get the ball, not under control.

Here is an example of good balance.
http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08155/soto273.gif (http://xs.to)


Forget balance. It's an over rated concept and over used term in the context of hitting and not something I see in ML hitters. Control, yes. Balance, no. THIS is a pretty @#$% good swing for this age IMO. I'd talk to him a little about athletic position before and during the swing. Start with his butt a little more out and a little more tilt of the torso. As Steve says, think deadlift position. Oh, and work on eliminating the counter rotation of the upper torso before the swing. Common in tee swings. Do that and then let's see what his rotation and connection look like after that.


...................

[Mark H]

OK 4x4 beat me to it. I understand many in baseball use the word balance for things Webster wouldn't recognize which is why I first wanted to explore Stealths definition for balance. I take it your definition is not lunging and stayng under control? Fine, I can try to remember that. I agree entirely with your sentiments in this post if not your terminology but no big deal.

[Mark H]

Mark H - I read the second part in bold as a way to be more balanced in the swing. Is that a correct assesment? Can you clarify the two parts in bold?

I'd say the suggestions go to being more powerful and quick as well as doing a better job of keeping good posture through the swing as relates to swing plane and adjustments to pitch location.

[BoardMember]

I'll go out on a limb here and say you are both right.

It's tough to maintain Control when you are not Balanced.

And it's just as tough to maintian Balance when you are out of Control..........:dance

I'd say the suggestions go to being more powerful and quick as well as doing a better job of keeping good posture through the swing as relates to swing plane and adjustments to pitch location.

[MSandman]

Hmm... I think I recall seeing an analogy recently about a top (maybe Steve E's site?). You can take it, tilt it on an angle (not straight up and down) and spin it. Was it "balanced" when you started? If it were stopped while spinning, it would likely fall over - just like some hitters fall over the plate a bit on their swings.

[Stealth]

I'd say the suggestions go to being more powerful and quick as well as doing a better job of keeping good posture through the swing as relates to swing plane and adjustments to pitch location.

Mark H - if you were teaching a group of youth hitters would you not want to tell them to "get athletic" or "be balanced" in hopes of acheiving what you describe above?

[Jake Patterson]

Mark H - if you were teaching a group of youth hitters would you not want to tell them to "get athletic" or "be balanced" in hopes of acheiving what you describe above?
I don't see where good posture does not equal a good athletic position. Are they not one in the same??

[jbooth]

He's just a little kid. Let him hit and have fun. His swing isn't terrible, work with him when he gets a bit older.

Wouldn't he have more fun if he hit really well?

Do you think that playing without instruction and letting incorrect movements develop will make it easy for him to get better when he gets older? It's hard to change what gets ingrained.

Is it possible that without instruction he may not do well and he will just quit before he gets older, because he isn't having fun.

Why do you think instruction should wait?

Basically, I think your statement is ridiculous and non-sensical.

[tom.guerry]

MarkH -

This is an example of applying the PCR vs MLB pattern filter.

When you discuss balance, it is different for 1 vs 2 plane, bt important in both.

so when you so it is overrated, that is USELESS information.

in golf, Hogan and Niklaus shifted wieght in a very different way, but both were balanced.

in swinging, balance is important in PCR, but it is different from balance in MLB.

[Stealth]

I don't see where good posture does not equal a good athletic position. Are they not one in the same??

Jake: is "being athletic" not the same as "being balanced" or "having good posture" - if they are the same then telling someone to "forget balance" would be wrong. That was my question to Mark H.

[Slapper23]

PhlliliesPhan,

I think you definitely have the right take on this concerning the young boy. As I wrote ysterday, he has a nice looking swing for his age. The most important consideration for him, IMO, is the playing. Playing the game should be No. 1 and something he should really enjoy doing...why else do kids play anything? I think he should continue ot be worked with, of course, but nothing hard core. Go light and make it fun. Kids respond to fun.

Please disregard Jim Booth's comments. Sometimes he simply cannot help himself, and his comments were anything but helpful.

Mike

[Swing Coach]

I have had more than one professional person (who knows more about hitting than me) tell me that one of the biggest keys to hitting is balance at toe touch.

39747

[jbooth]

PhlliliesPhan,

Please disregard Jim Booth's comments. Sometimes he simply cannot help himself, and his comments were anything but helpful.

Mike

I assume this is another one of your OPINIONS.
Most of which; in MY opinion, are of little value.

Do you set a kid down at a piano and just say, "Have fun, play it."

Do you put a Karate uniform on a kid and say, "Start kicking and punching, and have fun when you do it with your buddies."

Do you put a kid in a gym and point him to the parallel bars, and side horse, and say, "Have fun."

The point is; you can do stuff on your own, and if you have a lot of natural ability, you can have fun and get pretty good, but instruction from an expert speeds things along, and helps you reach your potential.

Saying that just playing and having fun, is all that is needed, and to forget about instruction is just plain stupid, IMO.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Comparing apples and oranges. You cite examples that require intensive instruction to reach even a novice level. Baseball requires minimal instruction to understand how to play. My issues is with parents (dads mostly) who feel the need to hire a professional baseball coach for their 3 year old, I'm exaggerating obviously. They push the kid because they see baseball (or sports in general) as the kid's ticket to college, instead of managing their finances correctly and encouraging scholastic achievment. I stated earlier that some dad's live vicariously through their sons. Its not the son's fault that dad got cut from the 7th grade baseball team, and now dad is determined to see his son make it, whether or not the son has the ability and/or desire.

If I was in the business of selling my "expertise" and coaching services, then I would want to see every man, woman, teenager, child, toddler, and infant seek the expert tutelage of their local instructor, regardless of ability, desire, or talent.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Wouldn't he have more fun if he hit really well?



I missed this one. I was never the best player on my team, and I always had fun because I was playing because I wanted to, not because I was forced. Its all about having the right attitudehttp://smiliesftw.com/x/bigok.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[tom.guerry]

PCR vs MLB in hitting is like 1 vs 2 plane swing in golf:

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx?page=26000&select2=5215

[Slapper23]

Jim, sometimes you seem to have something akin to Tourette's Syndrome with your random outbursts of criticisms of peoples' opinions, with words like stupid, ridiculous, idiot, and non-sensical.

I believe there is a conflict of interest here...you are a so-called "Pro Instructor" who derives at least a part of his living through charging for instruction. I, at least, am not saying the kid never needs instruction, I'm saying give the kid some slack, make it fun, right now he's having fun PLAYING...well, shoot, I already said my piece about the kid earlier.

Mike

[Mark H]

Mark H - if you were teaching a group of youth hitters would you not want to tell them to "get athletic" or "be balanced" in hopes of acheiving what you describe above?

Any given cue any given day etc but my problem with the term balanced is I've seen too many kids fussed at for not staying balanced when all they did was approximately what Adam Dunn did in the link but I'm not going to class this cue in the same category as the bs squish the bug or something like that.

[Mark H]

MarkH -

This is an example of applying the PCR vs MLB pattern filter.

When you discuss balance, it is different for 1 vs 2 plane, bt important in both.

so when you so it is overrated, that is USELESS information.

in golf, Hogan and Niklaus shifted wieght in a very different way, but both were balanced.

in swinging, balance is important in PCR, but it is different from balance in MLB.

Uh, yeah Tom. Useless information? Now that right there is some pretty good irony.

[Mark H]

Jake: is "being athletic" not the same as "being balanced" or "having good posture" - if they are the same then telling someone to "forget balance" would be wrong. That was my question to Mark H.

No I don't think they are the same though they often overlap. I don't think one can describe Dunn part way through the swing on that link as balanced since he's about to fall over and must step to catch himself, but again, any given cue any given day and I appreciate the reasonable civil discussion on the subject with Stealth.

[Mark H]

Jim, sometimes you seem to have something akin to Tourette's Syndrome with your random outbursts of criticisms of peoples' opinions, with words like stupid, ridiculous, idiot, and non-sensical.

I believe there is a conflict of interest here...you are a so-called "Pro Instructor" who derives at least a part of his living through charging for instruction. I, at least, am not saying the kid never needs instruction, I'm saying give the kid some slack, make it fun, right now he's having fun PLAYING...well, shoot, I already said my piece about the kid earlier.

Mike

Good moderation, BM and Jim are a large part of what has kept this board sane under the onslaught of the silliness coming from HI concerning hitting and you are not yourself part of the solution at all. IMO, you aren't qualified to carry his tee and that comes from someone who fairly often disagrees with Jim. Jim, though I do disagree with him occassionally and though he can be cranky, stubborn and can definitely show a bit of ego from time to time has shown himself to be a man worthy of the title and deserving of respect.

[Stealth]

No I don't think they are the same though they often overlap. I don't think one can describe Dunn part way through the swing on that link as balanced since he's about to fall over and must step to catch himself, but again, any given cue any given day and I appreciate the reasonable civil discussion on the subject with Stealth.

Mark H - in a perfect world I think most hitters want to be "balanced" or "athletic" throughout the swing. Of course the pitcher is trying to create the opposite. Do you think Dunn would see that swing of his as a "perfect" swing?

I still cannot imagine ever telling a youth hitter to not be balanced - in your words to "forget balance" - is wrong IMHO.

[Mark H]

Steve just posted an article from some journal about a balance between stability and mobility in movement. There's a balance I could recommend without reservation. The way you or Hidden Gem use and mean the word balance is fine as I understand it. As I said earlier, I've seen too many kids being harangued for being out of balance when doing the same thing I see MLB hitters doing on the low outside strike. IOW, I view it as an easy cue for those with a partial understanding to misunderstand and misuse.

[Dirtberry]

You guys are disusing a kids swing and while the proper term would be “Plumb”
You can’t tell a dad or kid to get into a nice plumb position, Balanced works.

I’ll take the one plane baseball swing

[jbooth]

Jim, sometimes you seem to have something akin to Tourette's Syndrome with your random outbursts of criticisms of peoples' opinions, with words like stupid, ridiculous, idiot, and non-sensical.

Those are my opinions of statements that were made. I'm just not as diplomatic in stating my opinion as some people are. If I have a strong opinion, then I use strong words.

I believe there is a conflict of interest here...you are a so-called "Pro Instructor" who derives at least a part of his living through charging for instruction. I, at least, am not saying the kid never needs instruction, I'm saying give the kid some slack, make it fun, right now he's having fun PLAYING...well, shoot, I already said my piece about the kid earlier.

Mike

The "Pro Instructor" describes that my profession is instructing. I make ALL (not part) of my living from instructing.

I'm not saying that all parents should pay for lessons for their kids. If a kid enjoys the game and wants to get better, then it's nice if the parent can afford lessons and is willing to let the kid have some. I don't think the kid should be forced to take lessons, or that he should take them if he just wants to play, and doesn't care how well he does.

My point is; age is not the issue in relation to paid lessons. It's whether the kid wants them or not. In 10 years, I've had very few kids come to me just because the parent wanted them to. And, in most of those cases, the parent quickly realized that the kid didn't care whether he got lessons or not, and they stopped taking lessons.

[Slapper23]

Jim,

On your describing your job, and you philosophy and history, I have to say that is one of the best posts I have read from you. And I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Mark, if anything, you help to keep this craziness in play. We disagree about the swing - get over it. You now next to nothing about me, yet I can't carry someone's tee. You're overreaching, Mark. You're frustration shows. You are officially off my Christmas list, buddy!

Mike

[Mark H]

OK, judging by what I've read on the net you can't carry Jim's tee.

[tom.guerry]

Jim -

i would recommend you try to understand the golf pattern info if you are a professinal instructor, this can give much needed perspective to help understand what you are seeing. here is a list of videos by the 1v2 plane guru jim hardy;

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx?page=500001&select2=4&search=hardy

the 2 golf academy shows are a good intro. the first one from 2003 explains that hardy got back into teaching because he saw the damage done by instructors that could be prevented by this understanding. what he saw was "natural" 1 planers having trouble and going to instructors who unwittingly tried to correct flaws by adding 2 plane elemnts creating more of a hybrid pattern with more ill fitting parts that made margin of error so small that consistent swings became near impossible.

the typical case was a 1 planer who got the club stuck because the hands got away from the body too much (CHP/"inner circle" fits with 1 plane swing as it does with PCR/hook/swinging with "alligator arms). as hardy says, hands out club back (stuck) is fixed by hands in/club out. then you can turn the body as fast as you want (turn like heck).

without a good 1v 2 plane understanding, instructors tried to fix this stuck problem by using the 2 plane element of keeping arms in front of body and slowing down body turn. this KILLS the 1 plane swing and leaves the player in a mechanically difficult position.

either you need to be a better 1 planer or a better 2 planer. what works for one kills another, the most important difference being whether or not you turn the shoulders at the top(1 plane yes, 2 plane no).

same applies to PCR and MLB. they are different patterns with many incmpatible pieces, not the same pattern with different degrees of freedom.

Clif has a good golf background and so does bm, they may be able to help you see how this approach in golf can really help you be a better baseball instructor.

[Slapper23]

Mark, that really hurt. You're gettin' off your feet a little bit there. Now, I'll have you know I've carried many a tee in my life...Friendo.

Mike

[jbooth]

Jim -

i would recommend you try to understand the golf pattern info if you are a professinal instructor, this can give much needed perspective to help understand what you are seeing. here is a list of videos by the 1v2 plane guru jim hardy;

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx?page=500001&select2=4&search=hardy

the 2 golf academy shows are a good intro. the first one from 2003 explains that hardy got back into teaching because he saw the damage done by instructors that could be prevented by this understanding. what he saw was "natural" 1 planers having trouble and going to instructors who unwittingly tried to correct flaws by adding 2 plane elemnts creating more of a hybrid pattern with more ill fitting parts that made margin of error so small that consistent swings became near impossible.

the typical case was a 1 planer who got the club stuck because the hands got away from the body too much (CHP/"inner circle" fits with 1 plane swing as it does with PCR/hook/swinging with "alligator arms). as hardy says, hands out club back (stuck) is fixed by hands in/club out. then you can turn the body as fast as you want (turn like heck).

without a good 1v 2 plane understanding, instructors tried to fix this stuck problem by using the 2 plane element of keeping arms in front of body and slowing down body turn. this KILLS the 1 plane swing and leaves the player in a mechanically difficult position.

either you need to be a better 1 planer or a better 2 planer. what works for one kills another, the most important difference being whether or not you turn the shoulders at the top(1 plane yes, 2 plane no).

same applies to PCR and MLB. they are different patterns with many incmpatible pieces, not the same pattern with different degrees of freedom.

Clif has a good golf background and so does bm, they may be able to help you see how this approach in golf can really help you be a better baseball instructor.


When baseball hitters start walking up to the plate with a golf club, I'll listen to you. I understand the baseball swing very well, and I don't agree with much of what you say. You're on track on some things, but this upper body and arm stuff you believe in, is way off track.

[Mark H]

Yep.


.

[hiddengem]

When baseball hitters start walking up to the plate with a golf club, I'll listen to you. I understand the baseball swing very well, and I don't agree with much of what you say. You're on track on some things, but this upper body and arm stuff you believe in, is way off track.

Jim, Mark H, Steve. Thoughts on this guy's swing?
http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08156/luby301.gif (http://xs.to)

[Mark H]

I can't seem to download it so I could see it in slo mo and I'd like to do that with a swing he drove the ball on.

[hiddengem]

I can't seem to download it so I could see it in slo mo and I'd like to do that with a swing he drove the ball on.

He takes the same swing on a ball he drives.

[jbooth]

Jim, Mark H, Steve. Thoughts on this guy's swing?
http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08156/luby301.gif[/url]

I don't see any major flaws in the swing. But, what was that pitch he swung at? It crossed the plate below his front knee and the catcher caught it on the ground.

If that's Lubanski, he's K'd 13 times in 32 plate appearances. That's about 6 too many. Is it his swing, or his mental plan at the plate? Is he going down looking, or swinging?

[hiddengem]

I don't see any major flaws in the swing. But, what was that pitch he swung at? It crossed the plate below his front knee and the catcher caught it on the ground.

If that's Lubanski, he's K'd 13 times in 32 plate appearances. That's about 6 too many. Is it his swing, or his mental plan at the plate? Is he going down looking, or swinging?

Here is what this current swing can and cannot do and then you can tell me if you think he should change or not. Epstein taught.

Can- Hit the ball extremely high, and far at times.
- Hit the fastball middle/in and down. If the pitcher is dumb enough to throw it there.
- Hit alot of lazy fly balls to left field
- Hit a top spun liner if he doesn't hit it high in the air


Cannot-Hit with any consistency a good fastball up in the zone.
- Hit a good fastball on the outer half of the plate, especially up in the zone.
-Let the ball travel because he's always getting beat, therefore is always early and out in front of the offspeed.
-

[Dirtberry]

There is your elipticalinear “Classic power swing” a tad of early backside loop.
Better front side with correction, poor torso deceleration at contact, causing poor deceleration. Reminiscent of Maris, Mantle, Greenberg and 100’s more. A great backspin producer.

[Slapper23]

Gem,

Was this a low and outside pitch? OTOH, it may be down the pipe based on where the catcher's glove is on the ground. It seems he misses the pitch by about a foot. It also appears he doesn't let the ball get deeper - looks like he is a little bit out in front. He needs a bit more sit at contact and he doesn't go down and get the pitch. But if it was an off-speed pitch, that could account for this swing - he thought he read the pitch correctly and set up the swing plane based on that, but was wrong and not waiting more cost him. Nasty pitch!

Mike

[hiddengem]

. A great backspin producer.

Then why does he hit so many top spiners?

[hiddengem]

Gem,

Was this a low and outside pitch? OTOH, it may be down the pipe based on where the catcher's glove is on the ground. It seems he misses the pitch by about a foot. It also appears he doesn't let the ball get deeper - looks like he is a little bit out in front. He needs a bit more sit at contact and he doesn't go down and get the pitch. But if it was an off-speed pitch, that could account for this swing - he thought he read the pitch correctly and set up the swing plane based on that, but was wrong and not waiting more cost him. Nasty pitch!

Mike

It definetly was a changeup, probably away. Thats the problem, he's getting beat by the good fastball, so why would he think "let the ball get deeper"? He seems to be always fighting up hill, so if the ball is down and he times it right, he's got a chance of squaring it. If its up in the zone and inner 3rd, its normally going to be a high fly ball..maybe a homer, or something top spun, because he's early.

[Mark H]

Anyone want to convert this to something we can frame by frame.

[hiddengem]

Anyone want to convert this to something we can frame by frame.

Its already a gif..what do you need? My realplayer will frame by frame a .gif. Your's won't?
http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08161/luby3693.gif (http://xs.to)

[Mark H]

OK, now I seem to be able to download it and open it with quicktime. Thanks. Just a quick look and I think I see a couple of things. First, though it's a bad angle for this question, it doesn't look like his hips are opening as part of his pelvic carry/stride. Kind of dead hips but I stand to be corrected if a clip from a better angle shows differently. Second, I think I see a huge push disconnect in the frame before contact. Except for you saying different I'd guess that was because he got fooled. Especially considering the result. A clip of a swing with a good result would still be interesting.

[hiddengem]

it doesn't look like his hips are opening as part of his pelvic carry/stride. Kind of dead hips
I agree.
Ok, so you agree that there should be an opening of the hips into footplant? I don't want to misrepresent anybody so maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was referred to as "bleeding" or something like that.

Second, I think I see a huge push disconnect in the frame before contact.
Yea, he's out in front and doing what you are supposed to do IMO..when that is the case..keep your hands going through the ball so you have a chance. He was just too far out in front.


I see hip slide with no separation, no loading of the hips and no sit. He just pulls off everthing away.

[Mark H]

I don't see any continued forward movement of the front hip joint after heel plant.

[4for4]

I agree.
Ok, so you agree that there should be an opening of the hips into footplant? I don't want to misrepresent anybody so maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was referred to as "bleeding" or something like that.

My penny's worth is yes to the hips, not to the front leg. If the front leg is spinning open without an associated hip movement, that's where you likely will lose efficiency, i.e., power. One way to look at this is to watch both knees chasing each other. If you have the front knee turning without that back knee, that's a good sign that the hips aren't working efficiently. I don't think a guy the size of Utley (http://www.englishbeyhitting.com/forums/index.php?topic=557.0) hits with the power that he does if he was spinning open the front leg and then the hips.


Yea, he's out in front and doing what you are supposed to do IMO..when that is the case..keep your hands going through the ball so you have a chance. He was just too far out in front.


I see hip slide with no separation, no loading of the hips and no sit. He just pulls off everthing away.

Do you have the loading sequence for this video. I'm guessing from looking at the unloading that it's not optimal.

[hiddengem]

I don't see any continued forward movement of the front hip joint after heel plant.

He gets no coil..just kind of glides into footplant.

Ok, so you agree that there should be an opening of the hips into footplant? I don't want to misrepresent anybody so maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was referred to as "bleeding" or something like that??

[hiddengem]

My penny's worth is yes to the hips, not to the front leg. Ok, so "Bleeding" refers to the front leg? Not the hips?


Do you have the loading sequence for this video. I'm guessing from looking at the unloading that it's not optimal.

Not that one..here is another swing. The more I look at it, the more I think his main problem lies in the lack of good separation between upper and lower body. Everything is going back and forward together and thats why is timing has to be perfect. If he could get his upper going back as his lower is opening, he would have a much better ability to let the ball travel and hit that pitch away. That resistance would hold him closed until he wanted to unload.
http://xs126.xs.to/xs126/08161/luby1980.gif (http://xs.to)

Like this
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif

[4for4]

Not that one..here is another swing. The more I look at it, the more I think his main problem lies in the lack of good separation between upper and lower body. Everything is going back and forward together and thats why is timing has to be perfect. If he could get his upper going back as his lower is opening, he would have a much better ability to let the ball travel and hit that pitch away. That resistance would hold him closed until he wanted to unload.
http://xs126.xs.to/xs126/08161/luby1980.gif (http://xs.to)

Like this
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif

It look like a lack of a good sequence. He could set this up better during the loading phase, IMO.

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/LubyOutOfSequence.gif

You see most MLB'rs back arm going in the opposite direction during this part of the swing.

[Mark H]

He gets no coil..just kind of glides into footplant.

I agree.

Ok, so you agree that there should be an opening of the hips into footplant? I don't want to misrepresent anybody so maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was referred to as "bleeding" or something like that??

I agree with 4x4's explanation.

[Mark H]

It look like a lack of a good sequence. He could set this up better during the loading phase, IMO.


You see most MLB'rs back arm going in the opposite direction during this part of the swing.

Reckon that's why he's got such a big ugly push?

[hiddengem]

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/LubyOutOfSequence.gif

You see most MLB'rs back arm going in the opposite direction during this part of the swing.

Right, thats why the correct separation of the upper and low half is so important. I guess you call it loading sequence. Same thing. If everything is going in the same direction, you have no resistance to keep the shoulders closed until you are ready to fire.

[Mark H]

Interesting he's gotten this far. If he did a better job of connecting vs pushing I think he'd be a whole lot better off in terms of result. To me, he's spinning (defined as one piece rotation) with poor connection. Spinning with good connection would be a good place to start for a very young hitter who has time to learn the sequential unload. This guy has sure gotten deep into the system with this pattern or at least that's the way it strikes me.

[hiddengem]

Interesting he's gotten this far. If he did a better job of connecting vs pushing I think he'd be a whole lot better off in terms of result. To me, he's spinning (defined as one piece rotation) with poor connection. Spinning with good connection would be a good place to start for a very young hitter who has time to learn the sequential unload. This guy has sure gotten deep into the system with this pattern or at least that's the way it strikes me.

What do you mean he has bad connection. His hands stay at his back shoulder for the first few frames of rotation, how is that not connected? He is spinning, and thats why IMO the proper separation is so important. But I don't think it has anything to do with connection. He is pushing because his separation is improper.

This guy hit .300 with 12-15HR's in AA signed for over 1million dollars and has very few AB's at the AAA level.

[Mark H]

I see a big push one frame before contact on the shot from the front. I may see it from the back but it's harder to tell and I have not been able to download that one and study it frame by frame. That's the disconnection I'm talking about. But it may have just been because he was fooled and you may have the whole diagnosis already. The dangers of making a diagnosis from one or two clips.

[4for4]

I'm saying loading sequence because I see it as a timing problem and it occurs at as close to the beginning of the stream as is possible in my view. I'm not sure what you mean by correct separation. I'm not talking about degrees of movement of the parts or differentials in terms of space between the parts for this hitter. I don't know what the ideal differentials for this hitter would be because it varies from hitter to hitter. I don't think he's going to find his ideal "separation" until he gets the loading sequence correct. It's my belief that if you load it out of sequence you will unload it out of sequence.

Right, thats why the correct separation of the upper and low half is so important. I guess you call it loading sequence. Same thing. If everything is going in the same direction, you have no resistance to keep the shoulders closed until you are ready to fire.

[4for4]

What do you mean he has bad connection. His hands stay at his back shoulder for the first few frames of rotation, how is that not connected? He is spinning, and thats why IMO the proper separation is so important. But I don't think it has anything to do with connection. He is pushing because his separation is improper.

This guy hit .300 with 12-15HR's in AA signed for over 1million dollars and has very few AB's at the AAA level.

Is he really ever connected? From the standpoint of energy moving from proximal to distal, I would say with the early bat unloading that he's not. His pelvic area is sluggish and late, his bat is unloading early. It looks like he's moving the bat and then tries to link up that bat movement with late hip movement. I think a good way to look at connection is from a time perspective first rather than just a spacial perspective.

[jbooth]

I see a big push one frame before contact on the shot from the front. I may see it from the back but it's harder to tell and I have not been able to download that one and study it frame by frame. That's the disconnection I'm talking about. But it may have just been because he was fooled and you may have the whole diagnosis already. The dangers of making a diagnosis from one or two clips.

What shot from the front? The only shot from the pitcher's view is of Red Sox, Dustin Pedroia that he put up to show separation.

This is Pedroia separating very well; Separating meaning; the hips go as the hands load back. The weight shift and hip rotation is well ahead of the hands moving at the ball. Lubanski's main problem is that he is turning everything at once.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif

[LClifton]

[url=http://xs.to]http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08161/luby3693.gif[/url

[BoardMember]

Very nice Loren..........Are you new???......:rofl:

[url=http://xs.to]http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08161/luby3693.gif[/url

[Mark H]

What shot from the front?

I should have said face on front of the hitter across the plate. Sorry for the confusion.

[Mark H]

[url=http://xs.to]http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08161/luby3693.gif[/url

Yeah, that one. Thanks.

[BoardMember]

This shot must be killin the "you gotta get full extension" croud.......:rofl:

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif

[Mark H]

Perhaps they should replace that with you gotta' get good whip?

[Hard Liner]

This shot must be killin the "you gotta get full extension" croud.......:rofl:

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif

OK, just to play devil's advocate to further my education, might not the extension crowd say had he extended more on that inside pitch, he could have pulled it with more power?

[Mark H]

Or gotten jammed or pulled it foul and then been vulnerable to the off speed away to take the other side.

[hiddengem]

I'm saying loading sequence because I see it as a timing problem and it occurs at as close to the beginning of the stream as is possible in my view. I'm not sure what you mean by correct separation. I'm not talking about degrees of movement of the parts or differentials in terms of space between the parts for this hitter. I don't know what the ideal differentials for this hitter would be because it varies from hitter to hitter. I don't think he's going to find his ideal "separation" until he gets the loading sequence correct. It's my belief that if you load it out of sequence you will unload it out of sequence.

Correct separation is exactly what Jim described. The lower half is opening as the upper half is loading back. Right now he has a one piece swing..everything loads back and goes forward together. His hands stay back at his shoulder just fine..Mark pointed out that he see's a "Big Push" in the last frame before contact. All that is, is him "hitting". He's out in front so he's trying to stay in line with the ball, instead of staying connected and pulling off the ball.

Like I said, its my opinion that his problem certainly doesn't lye in a connection problem. His loading patter is wrong, so he has no ability to adjust to offspeed, or stay on the ball. He simply has to guess the speed right, guess the pitch right and guess out of his hand, because he has no way of keeping his upper body back to adjust if he's wrong.

[hiddengem]

This shot must be killin the "you gotta get full extension" croud.......:rofl:

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif


Again, Full extension is when the bottom hand forearm and the length of the bat are lined up at contact. Looks to me like Pedroia is pretty close to this in this clip.

[BoardMember]

OK, just to play devil's advocate to further my education, might not the extension crowd say had he extended more on that inside pitch, he could have pulled it with more power?

It's possible. Although that would completely ignore the adjustments he make to the location.

He appears to be completely fooled, riding the back foot a bit to long, and steps slightly out. Then recovers, and works really hard to delay release and hit the inside seam.

Really nice recovery IMO.........

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif

[Go Cardinals]

Video will prove extension after contact if that's what you guys are talking about.

Also, every since I started training a while back, I can't extend either of my arms all the way. I know several baseball guys (went pretty far who can't do this). Pedroa may have done that.

Also... you guys know better than that... that's 1 swing! Look at several swings and take pitch location into consideration.

Look at some examples:
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/glaus.gif
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/FSanchez.gif
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Pujols8.gif
http://i30.tinypic.com/14t8zr4.gif

[hiddengem]

Or gotten jammed or pulled it foul and then been vulnerable to the off speed away to take the other side.

Or caught it a hair more out in front and launched it off the monster.
Kinda like this.
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia1.gif http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia3.gif

Albert at full extension and maximum bat speed. The front arm and bat are lined up at contact. He gets to this point by using his front arm very early in the swing starting down and then shutting it down completely when it gets to his front hip and from their the top hand/arm takes over to deliver the barrel from lag position to the ball. If you pull too much with it(bottom arm) out in front of you(chicken wing), thats when you drag the bat, jam yourself, hit sliced lazy fly balls to the opposite field and have a very hard time pulling the ball correctly while letting the ball travel.

[BoardMember]

Again, Full extension is when the bottom hand forearm and the length of the bat are lined up at contact. Looks to me like Pedroia is pretty close to this in this clip.

Really? Well I must say that is a new definition to me. I can deal with that. Although it doesn't seem to carry the same meaning of good extention through contact.

So, I guess if your lead arm is laying across your chest and you make contact really deep your getting full extension eh?

Guess I'll have to stick to the Power V when explaining the position after contact..........

Here's Pujols exibiting this new (to me) "full extension" at contact and the power V after contact:

http://i25.tinypic.com/aead5c.gif

[hiddengem]

So, I guess if your lead arm is laying across your chest and you make contact really deep your getting full extension eh?


As long as your top hand is working correctly and delivers the barrel to ball on time.

Your lead arm could be laying across your chest and you make contact somewhere between lag and contact, and that would not be full extension.

[BoardMember]

As long as your top hand is working correctly and delivers the barrel to ball on time.

Your lead arm could be laying across your chest and you make contact somewhere between lag and contact, and that would not be full extension.

Well, I think you know my top hand is working into contact......:dance

That we very much agree on....:highfive:

[4for4]

His hands stay back at his shoulder just fine..

I think this misses the point. Unloading the bat and then trying to link the hips to that bat movement is the point.

http://66.206.15.241/hmimgs/LubyOutOfSequence.gif

instead of staying connected and pulling off the ball.

This doesn't define connection and never has. Big league hitters don't do this. Many hitters below the big leagues often don't connect well and drive the hands/arms in a line to the ball or do what this hitter is doing with the timing issue.

His loading patter is wrong

Yes, I agree, causing the unloading to be suboptimal. Like I said, he's trying to link his hips up to the moving bat. He never really connects leading him to:

guess the speed right, guess the pitch right and guess out of his hand.


he has no ability to adjust to offspeed, or stay on the ball.

I believe it's a timing problem with it's genesis in the loading sequence and it takes away important decision time on reading the pitch. Given what I've seen of this hitter and his suboptimal loading/unloading sequence, he's going to be in a constant state of guessing [out of hand]/adjustment.

So in terms of cause and effect, it's not connection, it's loading/unloading, even though he never really connects.

[Mark H]

Mark pointed out that he see's a "Big Push" in the last frame before contact. All that is, is him "hitting". He's out in front so he's trying to stay in line with the ball, instead of staying connected and pulling off the ball.

.

If I hadn't read you saying this is his swing all the time I would read your above post as saying he was fooled and trying to save things. And I would agree since it looks pretty ugly and he missed the way he did.

[Mark H]

It's possible. Although that would completely ignore the adjustments he make to the location.

He appears to be completely fooled, riding the back foot a bit to long, and steps slightly out. Then recovers, and works really hard to delay release and hit the inside seam.

Really nice recovery IMO.........

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Pedroia.gif

Maybe so. I'd have to see him hit more in this location but you might very well be right.

[Hard Liner]

Again, Full extension is when the bottom hand forearm and the length of the bat are lined up at contact.

Man, that's a really useful definition. Thanks for repeating that. I hadn't given it enough atttention the first time.

[jbooth]

So in terms of cause and effect, it's not connection, it's loading/unloading, even though he never really connects.

You're right that it's a load/unload issue. But, his bat is connected OK to his shoulder rotation. It is not well connected to the hips.

If you don't have two parts to your swing, bottom, then top, you're dead at AAA and above, and in most leagues actually where a pitcher can throw hard, and feed you a good off-speed.

You're right that you can't move the bat (even if connected to the shoulder rotation), if the hips don't go, and then connect the shoulders to them.

[Swing Coach]

I agree Pedroia does not get full extension on that swing....and that's why the result looks like a soft liner that might possibly make it past the infield grass in the air.

[hiddengem]

I agree Pedroia does not get full extension on that swing....and that's why the result looks like a soft liner that might possibly make it past the infield grass in the air.

I believe the reason that the ball wasn't hit very hard or far was the fact that he was jammed, not because he did or didn't have full extension.