Leverage, fulcrum, and torque

[LAball]

I'm gana post my opinion on this again. Reading many other threads, I feel like this will differ from many other peoples thoughts. But I feel pretty strongly about this, and just wana throw this out.

Lets start with the sea-saw analogy. The sea-saw is 30 inches long. Point A and C will be the ends and point B is the fulcrum. Point A is where the hands are and point C is the end of the Bat.

Usually in the sea-saw, we move Point A one way and point C will move the other way. And of course Point B, the fulcrum is in the middle.

But in beginning of the swing, the fulcrum is where the top and is. Thus Point C, the end of the bat, his lost some torque (not all of it) and gained speed. Also at the beginning of the swing I are not using point A to move point C, as in a regular sea-saw. In the beginning of the swing, I am applying a forward force at point B, the fulcrum. Pushing the bat forward at Point B, but not pushing with my Hand/Arm. Point B is being pushed with the rotation of the body.

As the bat becomes horizontal (relatively speaking). Force will stop being applied at point B ( going forward ) and force is now applied at point A, BUT Point A will be going backwards, towards the catcher. [Batspeed.com states " by contact (the bottom hand) will be pulling back towards the catcher].

In order to put this backwards force on the bat, I MUST tilt towards the plate or you will not be able to pull back on the bat.

As I put this backwards force on point A, the fulcrum will move steadily towards point C, due to the tilting of the body, giveing the end of bat more torque and less speed. But the bat speed does not slow down due to the inertia from the the beginning of the swing.

I have not all the the "Gate swing" discussion, but is seems without this rearwards force at the handle, the bat will swing like a gate.

Now, Please say that I'm wrong or you disagree. But please dont call me crazy or stupid, cuz thats just childish.

[PhilliesPhan22]

see ball, hit ball:D

[LAball]

see ball, hit ball:D

Thats another good way to look at it.

[BoardMember]

I'm gana post my opinion on this again. Reading many other threads, I feel like this will differ from many other peoples thoughts.

It shouldn't. It's a law of physics, leverage and mechanical advantage. It really shouldn't be up for interpetation........Except for late in the swing when things begin to change.......

But I feel pretty strongly about this, and just wana throw this out.
Lets start with the sea-saw analogy. The sea-saw is 30 inches long. Point A and C will be the ends and point B is the fulcrum. Point A is where the hands are and point C is the end of the Bat.

Usually in the sea-saw, we move Point A one way and point C will move the other way. And of course Point B, the fulcrum is in the middle.

Agreed.......This is an example of a 1st class lever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever#First-class_levers)..........And NOT what happens early in the swing.......

But in beginning of the swing, the fulcrum is where the top hand is.

Disagree.........The fulcrum (pivot point) is the knob early in the swing.........

This is where the 3rd class lever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever#Third-class_levers)is explained. In a third class lever, the force is BETWEEN the fulcum and resistance load (bat head).

Thus Point C, the end of the bat, his lost some torque (not all of it) and gained speed. Also at the beginning of the swing I are not using point A to move point C, as in a regular sea-saw. In the beginning of the swing, I am applying a forward force at point B, the fulcrum. Pushing the bat forward at Point B, but not pushing with my Hand/Arm. Point B is being pushed with the rotation of the body.

This is where your confused. Again, you're correct that you're applying force in the "middle of the lever".

This IS a 3rd class lever (http://www.mca.k12.nf.ca/sm/lever/lever.htm)......

See if you can pass this test (http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0210120/Types%20of%20Levers.html).......

As the bat becomes horizontal (relatively speaking). Force will stop being applied at point B ( going forward ) and force is now applied at point A, BUT Point A will be going backwards, towards the catcher. [Batspeed.com states " by contact (the bottom hand) will be pulling back towards the catcher.

This is the annomoly of the swing. Into contact, the force changes to a 1st class lever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever#First-class_levers) where the fulcrum is between the hands, and torque (rotational force on the bat) is exerted..........

In order to put this backwards force on the bat, I MUST tilt towards the plate or you will not be able to pull back on the bat.

As I put this backwards force on point A, the fulcrum will move steadily towards point C, due to the tilting of the body, giveing the end of bat more torque and less speed. But the bat speed does not slow down due to the inertia from the the beginning of the swing.

I have not all the the "Gate swing" discussion, but is seems without this rearwards force at the handle, the bat will swing like a gate.

Now, Please say that I'm wrong or you disagree. But please dont call me crazy or stupid, cuz thats just childish.

You are wrong. But you are not stupid. You just don't understand the physics of leverage and mechanical advantage.......:dance

[PhilliesPhan22]

Torque hitting? Like this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byuht5bfR20

About the only thing I can hit doing this is a ball off of a tee.

[BoardMember]

Torque hitting? Like this guy?

Not hardly dude.......:eek:

[PhilliesPhan22]

Not hardly dude.......:eek:

that was my reaction the first time I watched that. Now I save it and watch it when I need a laugh.

The guy looks like Bob Saget which makes it even funnier.

[LAball]

Torque hitting? Like this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byuht5bfR20

About the only thing I can hit doing this is a ball off of a tee.

He does start the swing with the body. And has good upper body tilt, which probably means there is a rearward force on the handle at contact.

[BoardMember]

He does start the swing with the body. And has good upper body tilt, which probably means there is a rearward force on the handle at contact.

LA, it's pretty tough to create rearward force "pulling back" as the hands move through the swing.

Rather then thinking of creating a "pull back" with the lead hand, just think of the lead hand turning left into contact as the top hand drives past it.....

This creates the torque late in the swing.......

Pulling back is "virtually" impossible........

[PhilliesPhan22]

It just seems to me like he method leads to only one kind of swing, not able to be adjusted to pitch type and location.

[Jesse]

Are you applying pressure with your fingers? That's very important.

[BoardMember]

It just seems to me like he method leads to only one kind of swing, not able to be adjusted to pitch type and location.

I wouldn't spend to much time worrying about it.......:dance

[LAball]

LA, it's pretty tough to create rearward force "pulling back" as the hands move through the swing.

Rather then thinking of creating a "pull back" with the lead hand, just think of the lead hand turning left into contact as the top hand drives past it.....

This creates the torque late in the swing.......

Pulling back is "virtually" impossible........

I do feel my self pulling back albeit very little. I dont pull back on purpose though. It just happens.

[BoardMember]

I do feel my self pulling back albeit very little. I dont pull back on purpose though. It just happens.

What you probably feel is the knob turning back on itself as your lead hand turns left........And it feels like pulling back......

[LAball]

It just seems to me like he method leads to only one kind of swing, not able to be adjusted to pitch type and location.

I think this kind of swing is very adjustable because the wrist stays hinged longer as the body swings the bat. Then as I unhinge the wrist I can adjust the swing.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I wouldn't spend to much time worrying about it.......:dance

I'm not. I'm comfortable with the way I hit. I need to make a post and vid for evaluation.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I think this kind of swing is very adjustable because the wrist stays hinged longer as the body swings the bat. Then as I unhinge the wrist I can adjust the swing.

its a different perspective and i watched and tried it with an open mind, but I just didn't buy into it. Kudos to him for thinking outside the box (so to speak).

[LAball]

I do rotate by body differently then him though...

[LAball]

Thanks BM for pointing out the different Levers. Been a long time since high school.

[BoardMember]

Thanks BM for pointing out the different Levers. Been a long time since high school.

No problem.......:highfive:

[LAball]

So BM, you do agree that the high level swing starts as a third class lever and changers to a first class lever?

It seems most armature swings are third class levers through the entire swing.

[Slapper23]

What you probably feel is the knob turning back on itself as your lead hand turns left........And it feels like pulling back......

Oh, man, you nailed it, John! Yeah, that's it, that's exactly what LA felt. :rofl:

Mike