mastering a changeup?

[jamesh23]

I throw a changeup but I think I slow my arm speed or something cuz when ever I throw it, it comes out slower but it gets smashed everytime I throw it for a strike. and when I use a circle change grip or any kind of grip and try to keep the same arm speed it comes out maybe 2-4 mph slower than my fastball how do I get one thats 10-15mph slower and has a little sinking action? also how does one throw a sinker?

[RobV]

A change up is useless if you don't have a good fastball.

[fastbal95]

I dont think that statement is accurate at all. Jamie Moyer and Trevor Hoffman both dont have what you would call a good fastball, yet they have outstanding changeups. It is not the velocity of the fastball. What makes a good changeup is the difference of velocity between changeup and fastball, whatever that velocity may be.

jamesh,

If you keep the same arm speed of your fastball when you throw your change, then I would say it is your grip of your changeup. If you want your changeup to fade or has sinking action, you need to pronate it.

Same thing goes for a sinker. Think of a 2 seam fastball that your pronate very hard and I think you will find it sinking.

[Padday]

I dont think that statement is accurate at all. Jamie Moyer and Trevor Hoffman both dont have what you would call a good fastball, yet they have outstanding changeups. It is not the velocity of the fastball. What makes a good changeup is the difference of velocity between changeup and fastball, whatever that velocity may be.

jamesh,

If you keep the same arm speed of your fastball when you throw your change, then I would say it is your grip of your changeup. If you want your changeup to fade or has sinking action, you need to pronate it.

Same thing goes for a sinker. Think of a 2 seam fastball that your pronate very hard and I think you will find it sinking.

I don't think it has anything to do with pronating, rather how you grip the ball. If you grip the ball with a circle change grip, the ball is going to spin differently than just throwing a normal three fingered changeup. Same goes for a sinker, it's mostly about the grip from my understanding.

[RobV]

Of course it's the speed difference between the two pitches that matters.

But (as I said before ) what difference does it make if you have a 70mph fastball, and a 65mph change up at the JV and Varsity level in high school?

Either one will get crushed.

My point is that the focus should be on developing your throwing capabilities first (like a good fastball) before worrying about how to throw a changeup or curve ball or screw ball or knuckleball or gyro or......pronating......

:rolleyes:

[fastbal95]

If you have a 70 mph fastball and a 60 mph changeup and know how to throw both, they wont get crushed at the high school level.

I see Moyer blow it by guys at 83 and this is the best of the best. If you can throw a changeup with good arm speed and its only 60, and then throw your fastball at 70, its not gonna get crushed.

Getting your changeup to fade or sink or run or whatever has everything to do with pronation. It puts a reverse spin on the ball.

[PhilliesPhan22]

its all about deception.

[LAball]

My son has an incredibly hard time going from 55mph to 40 mph for the batting cages. It takes about 10 pitches for him to adjust. He's only 9 though =p. Even funnier is from 65 to 40, he'll swing early on all 20 pitches in the cages:cry:

[TG Coach]

how do I get one thats 10-15mph slower and has a little sinking action?

With lots of practice. There aren't any quick, miracle cures.

[Chris O'Leary]

A change up is useless if you don't have a good fastball.

This is wrong.

The differential in velocity between your FB and CH and the similarity of your mechanics between pitches is much more important than just the velocity of your FB. A good change is thrown IDENTICALLY to your FB but comes in 7 to 10 percent slower.

That is fast enough that it's not obviously a CH but slow enough to screw up the hitter's timing.

That's why people like Jamie Moyer with mediocre FBs are still able to be effective.

Also, if you throw a Circle Change, throw the circle at the target. That will force pronation and give you some tail.

[Deemax]

I throw a changeup but I think I slow my arm speed or something cuz when ever I throw it, it comes out slower but it gets smashed everytime I throw it for a strike.

Your changeup armspeed HAS to be the same as your fastball. Hitters are not fooled on the change otherwise. You will need to experiment with grips (dozens of options) until you find one that allows fastball arm and handspeed to go along with -8 to 12 mphs.

When you get the feel of a grip that allows control and the speed difference, give a shout back and I can help you with the best way to get tail and sink on your change....

Good luck

[RobV]

Just want everyone know where I am coming from with all of this.

James has asked on several forums about many different pitches. He has also mentioned (if memory serves correctly) that he has had many arm injuries and was constantly complaining about a sore arm, and also a lack of velocity and control.

This is not a knock on James. In fact I applaud his passion and enthusiasm about the sport and wanting to improve his abilities. I think that's great!

But what has seemed to escape everyone is ....this kid has some thowing issues! And trying to mask it all with adding "junk ball" pitches without figuring out WHY he is where he is at in regards to his throwing ability (with quality video clips and what have you) is a mearly a bandaid at best and a recipie for disaster at worst.

So I just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from with regard to my statements.

I totally understand the concept of a change up and how to throw one.

But I will say it again....if you cannot throw effectively. If you do not have a "decent" fastball, then it will not matter what else you throw. You will get hammered eventually, and more importantly...possibly have a screwed up arm.

The fastball sets up everything in my book, and more importantly...throwing effectively/efficiently.

[fastbal95]

Rob,

I understand where you are coming from. His problem of a sore arm, lack of velocity and control all stem from the motion he uses when he pitches, throws, etc....

Until he fixes this, he will not get any better.

[JeepTJ12]

I didn't read where any one said hold the ball deep in the palm. I throw three two seam fastballs. One on the finger tips, one medium depth, and one deep in the palm. Mix it up then you have the hitters in the palm of your hand. My change-up, I hold deep in the palm and only hold the ball with my thumb and let it spin out of the top giving the ball a lot of back spin. I could never throw a circle change b/c it would come out of my hand too much to the right and I had no control. Different change-up holds work for different people. However, I've always found the deeper and more fingers that are on the ball the slower.

[BallCoach06]

The biggest issue I see with kids trying to throw a change up is that they try to grip the ball way too tight. A change up is a touch and feel pitch. Don't try to put a death grip on the ball.

Another thing is a lot of kids try throwing a circle change, but struggle with it. There are many ways to throw a change up. Find a way that works for you and work to improve it. I usually move kids more to a three finger change instead of a circle change. They usually show more command with the pitch and create a lot more deception because they are not trying to squeeze the life out of the ball.

[EdmondsFan#1]

These two articles helped me throw a better circle change and made me understand the pitch a little better;

This article breaks down why Johan Santana's change up is so good and also shows a great picture of how he grips it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/03/sports/baseball/03santana.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=sports

This article explains exactly how he grips it and throws it and if you look at the 8th paragraph he says that he does Not Pronate the release of his change up, I'm guessing that's because it would change the rotation of the pitch and possibly the release point.

http://www.metsblog.com/2008/03/04/psl-johan-taught-me-his-change-up/


And as for change ups being "useless" unless the pitcher has a good fastball; Tom Glavine's change up only goes 6-7 mph slower than his fastball, and his change up and fastball are practically the only two pitches he ever uses. And he's a 300-game winner and has won 2 Cy Young awards and has been a top 3 canidate for the Cy Young award 4 other times. But when you hear people talking about the nastiest change ups you never hear Glavine's name, you don't need a nasty change up that tumbles in 20 mph slower than your fastball to have a good change up. You can have a very effective change up that only goes 5 mph slower. It's how pitchers use their pitches that make them effecient, not the other way around.