Hitting Advice for My Son

[Woody]

Hello - I am looking for some hitting advice/perspective for my 13U son. He historically has been an outstanding contact hitter and has typically lead his team in average since he was 6yrs old. Last season he lead his Major level team in avg., OBP and was second in slugging. I have had many, many coaches (including a 5A head coach of a high school that consistantly goes to state in Texas HS playoffs and has had several 1st round draft picks from his program) tell me that Dereck has the quickest hands that they seen in a kid his age. He is good.

This season, he has made a very high caliber nationally ranked 13U major team and his coach has really been modifying his swing as follows (Dereck is a right handed batter).

* Initiating swing by driving right, rear knee forward, towards ground.
* Top hand follows knee and drives knob of bat towards ball.
* Keep body stacked and vertical.
* strong extension.

My son has done an excellent job incorporating some of the changes in his swing but has really been struggling keeping his body stacked/vertical through the swing. He has a natural swing tilt/angle and his left hip tends to lift a little.

His performance at the plate has really suffered and he has reached a level of frustration that I have never seen in him before. I am trying to encourage him during this period as much as possible and am trying to keep him focused...even shared that Tiger Woods revamped his swing while he was winning majors to get better.

Although I have confidence in his coach's knowledge, I really want to dig deeper into this and get some additional perspective. I am impressed with the thoughtful info sharing here and welcome your feedack & thoughts. It is killing me to see something that brought my son so much joy become a laboring task. I also recognize that sometimes one needs to take a step or 2 backwards to move forward. Baseball offers many life lessons, eh? :noidea

Thank you - Jim

[Chris O'Leary]

* Initiating swing by driving right, rear knee forward, towards ground.
* Top hand follows knee and drives knob of bat towards ball.
* Keep body stacked and vertical.
* strong extension.

Not all of these cues are terrible (but I think the focus on extension is a big red flag), but the results indicate that the coach is leading your son down the wrong path.

[Jake Patterson]

Woody we would have to see a clip, but what you describe is very normal for this age group. Good "contact" hitters at the 12U level with high drop bats struggle at the 13U level. The reasons include the use of high drop expensive bats and linear mechanics. "Drive the knob" and "strong extention" would give me pause.... but again hard to really comment without a clip.

[Woody]

Thank you both for quick comments. I will be adding a clip soon.

BTW, he has been using a wood bat for all practice activity since he was 11. He is currently using a 31" -5 bat.

[Chris O'Leary]

This season, he has made a very high caliber nationally ranked 13U major team and his coach has really been modifying his swing as follows (Dereck is a right handed batter).

* Initiating swing by driving right, rear knee forward, towards ground.
* Top hand follows knee and drives knob of bat towards ball.
* Keep body stacked and vertical.
* strong extension.

What does the coach say that he's trying to accomplish?
What problems does he say he sees in your son's swing?
What hitters does he want your son to emulate?

[Jake Patterson]

Thank you both for quick comments. I will be adding a clip soon.

BTW, he has been using a wood bat for all practice activity since he was 11. He is currently using a 31" -5 bat.
I wish more fathers/coaches would see the merit in doing this...

[PhilliesPhan22]

A big thumb up for the wood bat!!!

I say, let your son hit how he is most comfortable and successful.

[Woody]

Chris - The coach is trying to:
1. generate power using the the lower body by keeping the front foot stable and driving back leg and knee forward.
2. minimize head movement by keeping body stacked.
3. Short, powerful hand movement to ball driven by top hand.
(much easier said than done).

Prior to this coach, my son has been taught to simply plant front foot prior to pitchers release point; rotate (without much specifics re: back leg/knee), and keep hands inside the ball using bottom hand as dominant hand and using top hand to keep barrel above ball. He has also received much instruction on making contact at proper depth depending on location.

The area of challenge is clearly that he has a slight tilt and is not staying "stacked".

I've attached a picture of his swing at 11U that illustrates the slight tilt... as well as a 11U pic showcasing a trophy with his grandma so you can see how much this kid loves baseball!

[Woody]

Take II on swing pic.

[Jake Patterson]

Nothing better than a proud grandma.

[Jake Patterson]

Woody,
Tough to tell with a pic. Really need a clip. Here's a youngster I like to use as an example.
[ATTACH]38784[/ATTACH
You can see a few differences... but again tough to tell with a pic.

[Woody]

Will post a clip soon. Again, ghank you for the feedback.

BTW, at this point, he would drop a date with Grandma in exchange for a gapper in a nano second!

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris - The coach is trying to:
1. generate power using the the lower body by keeping the front foot stable and driving back leg and knee forward.

I'm not sure this is the right way to teach rotation. When I teach rotation, I focus on the hips.


2. minimize head movement by keeping body stacked...The area of challenge is clearly that he has a slight tilt and is not staying "stacked".

Minimizing head movement is good, but staying stacked is not the answer. The pros do not stay stacked. Instead, they tilt over the plate to adjust to pitches up or down in the strike zone.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_Tilt_JackCust_2008_HomeRun_001.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Example_Tilt_JimEdmonds_2006_HomeRun_001.jpg

For more examples, see...

- Examples - Tilt (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Examples/Tilt.html)

Does the coach talk about swinging level?


3. Short, powerful hand movement to ball driven by top hand.

Hands to the ball is a questionable cue because it can lead to disconnection/premature extension which slows the swing down through the point of contact.

I also don't talk about top hand dominance.

Does he want him to hit the top of the ball and to roll his wrists?

[Woody]

Great pics...

No re: swing level. However, he does talk about driving back leg/knee low to get lower pitches.

I don't recall any comments about rolling wrists or hitting top half of ball...

[Chris O'Leary]

However, he does talk about driving back leg/knee low to get lower pitches.

This sounds like Epstein's idea of using the back knee as a hinge.

It sounds good, but it's not what the pros actually do. Their back knee angles are quite consistent on pitches up and down on the zone.

They adjust via tilt.

It sounds like this guy is teaching a hybrid of Lau and Epstein.

[Jake Patterson]

No re: swing level.... Nobody with any knowledge of hitting teaches this anymore. Go to Clips, Pics and Sites - Find the hitters - you will see no one swings level. Most who argue here would at least agree on that.
Jake

[Woody]

Chris - What do you teach on hip rotation? In particular, the proper movement of the hips?

[Chris O'Leary]

Nobody with any knowledge of hitting teaches this anymore.

I agree.

The problem is that maybe 80 to 90 percent (?) of hitting instructors have no solid knowledge of hitting.

By "solid", I mean having some basis in analysis and fact. Too much instruction -- including private, paid instruction -- is just the regurgitation of old wives tales.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris - What do you teach on hip rotation? In particular, the proper movement of the hips?

I try to keep it simple with cues like "Drive your swing from your hips".

I mostly let them figure out how to do that.

I do teach guys to stride into a bent front knee and then stiffen it to help power hip rotation.

[Mark H]

My test of hitting advice is "compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. Based on this, to put it kindly, the coach changing your kid's swing is a moron. For instance. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

Spend some time on Englishbey's site as well. The advice your coach is giving is the usual crap and it's just not what elite hitters do. #$% I hate it when coaches who should know better teach stuff that an hour of studying clips of elite hitters would show to be wrong. Pet peeve. How hard do I have to beg you to get you to quit letting this guy screw up your kid? Uh, let's see, he was magic at the plate till this guy started with him and now?

[Jake Patterson]

I've been giving the good/bad coach some consideration.

I think there are several levels of coaches that range from very bad to very good.

Many instructors here are working and learning everyday and while we disagree on several items we could click off many items on which we agree.

To those parents/players who feel there coach may not be teaching the right techniques print off a several pictures from this site (or from another hitting site) of the very best hitters and give them to your coach and say this; "Coach I'm confused... I understand what you are trying to teach me, but this seems much different than what these guys are doing."

If he says - "Hmmm.. Wow that's interesting. Can I keep these?" Then stay with him and give him a shot.

If he says - "I'm not interested in what these guys are doing." Then get another hitting coach. If he's your coach, get through the season the best you can.

Presented with proof respectfully most good coaches will respond positively.

[Chris O'Leary]

To those parents/players who feel there coach may not be teaching the right techniques print off a several pictures from this site (or from another hitting site) of the very best hitters and give them to your coach and say this; "Coach I'm confused... I understand what you are trying to teach me, but this seems much different than what these guys are doing."...Presented with proof respectfully most good coaches will respond positively.

This is a great idea.

I'll put something together.

[Woody]

All - Thank you again for the feedback... this forum is excellent.

I will be posting a clip of my son's swing to solicit input.

[Mark H]

I've been giving the good/bad coach some consideration.

I think there are several levels of coaches that range from very bad to very good.

Many instructors here are working and learning everyday and while we disagree on several items we could click off many items on which we agree.

To those parents/players who feel there coach may not be teaching the right techniques print off a several pictures from this site (or from another hitting site) of the very best hitters and give them to your coach and say this; "Coach I'm confused... I understand what you are trying to teach me, but this seems much different than what these guys are doing."

If he says - "Hmmm.. Wow that's interesting. Can I keep these?" Then stay with him and give him a shot.

If he says - "I'm not interested in what these guys are doing." Then get another hitting coach. If he's your coach, get through the season the best you can.

Presented with proof respectfully most good coaches will respond positively.


Good advice but either way he stops teaching my kid stupid things. NOW! As to getting through the season, this team isn't going to get him a college scholly or drafted. His ability to hit might. Which is more important, his swing or this youth team?

[Mark H]

All - Thank you again for the feedback... this forum is excellent.


Yeah my motivation on the net is to steer kids and dads away from bad info and toward good info especially as regards hitting and this forum, in spite my skepticism about public forums in general, has been giving me the warm fuzzies lately.

[MarkL]

MarkH-do you coach hitters?

[Mark H]

Yes but he doesn't have to take my word for what elite hitters do. He can check the video of elite hitters. As I'm sure you know, there are many instructors who who you and I both would agree flunk this test.

[Jake Patterson]

As to getting through the season, this team isn't going to get him a college scholly or drafted. His ability to hit might. Which is more important, his swing or this youth team? I think in this case we are looking at a MS'er.

Many areas don't have the luxury of several elite teams from which to pick. In Small Town America, you pi$$ off the MS, HS coach you don't play. The hitting coaches here who know their stuff are few and far between. The decision here is play or don't play.... Now that being said I have seen few HS coaches mess too much with successful hitting.

[Freestate]

My test of hitting advice is "compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.


Mark's been saying this for at least a couple of years that I know of, and it is the single best piece of advice I've yet to encounter on hitting. :thumbsup:

[Mark H]

I think in this case we are looking at a MS'er.

Many areas don't have the luxury of several elite teams from which to pick. In Small Town America, you pi$$ off the MS, HS coach you don't play. The hitting coaches here who know their stuff are few and far between. The decision here is play or don't play.... Now that being said I have seen few HS coaches mess too much with successful hitting.

Thanks Freestate. Jake, yeah it can be tough to balance. I come down on the side of what's the point in being on a good team if the price of admission is your swing has to get mangled?

[Ursa Major]

I agree that there are several red flags in the advice there. Any cue focusing on moving the hands is worrisome, because that's the last thing (chronologically) in the swing the kid will be doing and should be the last thing to focus on.

But the killer for me is this "stacked/vertical" issue. I haven't heard that one from even the linear/Lau crowd. One of the toughest things I find to do (other than combating disconnection) with hitters is to get them to incorporate some tilt in their swings. I think part of the problem is that they have to also tilt their head (see the Cust picture posted above), and they're not used to seeing the ball with their eyes not being level. So, when you have a good who's got the tilt thing down and is successful with it, and a coach tries to beat it out of him ---- GRRRRHHHH!

[Swing Coach]

...and the mood seemed right for poetry


I once took away a kid's hands
In the name of rotational plans
His connection was sweet
His swing looked elite
But his results were boo'd by the fans

In my opinion, the best hitters in the world use their hands in a powerful move forward (in connection with their shoudlers) until they explode through the ball into extension.
Many say the hands and shoulders are moving together, but the hands are just going along for the ride??...can that be proved any easier than my statement above. In the swing like the gate thread...HG says the pros believe the hands do play a major role from the beginning in harmony with the body. My nine year old had bad bat drag (leading with his back elbow) and not using his hands in the swing. He now hits the ball about 30 percent harder when I tell him he needs to use his hands. Now his hands are able to catch up to his shoulder..and his effort to move the hands forward (in sync with the shoulders of course) definitely gives him more power and a connected swing. He can now hit outside balls to opposite field and pull inside pitchers. Different cues for different folks, I say.

SC

[Mark H]

So his hands are moving in sync with his shoulders? Good. I don't care what you told him to make it happen. It happened. I should add if he had good connection he would likely get a great whip and everyone would be talking about his strong wrists and quick hands. ;)