Rotation, extention and swingin' like a gate

[Swing Coach]

I have taught my students and my 9-year-old rotational hitting, how to connect the hands with the shoulders...and especially how not to use the hands by throwing them at the ball. Recently, however, I have noticed that a few kids (including my son) are swinging more like a gate and not getting extention through the ball. I wouldn't think this a big deal, except the mlb swing extends through the ball (see below) unless the pitch is very inside. You will notice the mlb bats point straight (these are all good swings), which means at some point their hands were accelerating toward the ball, which makes the elbows straighten after contact. Try this.....take a hairbrush or long wooden spoon and hold it with the spoon part touching your shoulder. Now keep the spoon attached to the shoulder and initiate the swing and you will see that the hands are totally taken out of the equation and this initiation feels very "un-powerful." After doing this exercise and seeing how the mlb swings extend through the ball, I have concluded that the hands are accelerating toward the ball (equally with the back shoulder, but still powerfully toward the ball. I have taken the hands out of my son's swing and he swings more like a gate after contact...not ever letting his hands take his arms straight toward the pitcher. His power suffers because of this. So, to conclude (after the hips begin)I believe there is definitely a "hands" initiation forward through connection, which leads to contact and then immediataly to extention. If you take the hands out...you cannot have a swing like these I am posting. I am also posting the 11 year-old swing that everyone raved about...he rotates...but does not extend at all. Look at the angle of his bottom arm compared to the almost straight angle of the pros. And his dad says he has little power. What do you all think?38768
38769

[Jake Patterson]

My team facilates... They either maintain the box well and do not extend or they extend early, disconnect and have no power. Both are common problems with young players.

[Chris O'Leary]

I have taught my students and my 9-year-old rotational hitting, how to connect the hands with the shoulders...and especially how not to use the hands by throwing them at the ball. Recently, however, I have noticed that a few kids (including my son) are swinging more like a gate and not getting extention through the ball.

IMO extension is the EFFECT of a powerful swing and not the CAUSE of a powerful swing.

If he were my son, I would focus on his staying connected. The extension will come if he keeps staying connected and as he gets older.

[Swing Coach]

Chris, so you're saying you don't want to or shouldn't teach this?..even though the high level swings all do it. You sound like you are saying this extention will come natural, so it's not a teach. I say if your student doesn't extend, he will not have near the powerful swing he could have...so you have to teach it. thoughts.....

p.s and why didn't anyone notice this lack of extention with the 11-year-old above from the other thread?

[Chris O'Leary]

I do not spend much, if any, time on extension.

I think people who focus on extension are confusing cause and effect.


I say if your student doesn't extend, he will not have near the powerful swing he could have...so you have to teach it. thoughts.....

I would argue that a lack of extension IS an indication of a not-as-powerful swing, but I do not think that focusing on extension is the place to try to fix the problem.

I would argue that the root cause of the problem (if it is a problem) appears earlier and the lack of extension is just a symptom.


p.s and why didn't anyone notice this lack of extention with the 11-year-old above from the other thread?

1. Because most people around here don't focus on it.

2. Because it's hard to see due to the heavy blurring.

[CoachB25]

Swing Coach, without getting to much into this, the ball is far off of the bat in every picture you posted of MLB players. They probably maintained connection for more than a couple of frame counts and then, at some point, their hands left connection. The trick then is where and how. Take a look at these videos. To me these say a lot more than those still after the ball has long left the bat.


http://i25.tinypic.com/2k51s9.gif

http://i30.tinypic.com/1znyhqo.gif

http://i27.tinypic.com/35mjvno.gif

Also, Coach, a couple of the pictures you posted are from RVP. When you are able to stop the video feed frame by frame you should see exactly the position of the hands, arms etc. at contact.

[Chris O'Leary]

As CoachB25 suggests, on most good ML swings (e.g. home runs) you see connection, and not extension, at the point of contact.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_018.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_001.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_031.jpg

[Swing Coach]

Actually the ball is very close to the bat when they have extended. you can still see it in 3 of the 4 photos..which means these swings extend right after contact..through the ball. I know what I am seeing...but I have not been convinced that it is not a teach for those who do not extend (like this swing below). It is very easy to see (in the slow motion version) that there is absolutely no extention in this swing like the mlb swings that have been shown on this thread...his swing is sweet...but in my opinion could be better with some post contact extention through the ball. But the real question is how do the big leaguers get there and why does this kid not get there.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x13/zrxcanyoncarver/?action=view&current=stevengarage3-30-08.flv

[BoardMember]

p.s and why didn't anyone notice this lack of extention with the 11-year-old above from the other thread?

I absolutely noticed it. I also notice the counter rotation. As you gain experience with "tee swings", you'll notice both counter rotation and lack of extension in "young hitters". Tee's can promote a spinning move in younger hitters because of the need to create excessive rotational power to create higher collision speeds with the bat head to get that power feel.

I would be willing to bet a dollar this young man extends through contact when the ball is coming at him and he is "sending back where it came from"......

[Swing Coach]

I may be willing to bet that dollar...I usually see a very similar swing when I videotape a tee swing and a live swing. All that muscle memory is hard to change. Let's say he (or another student) doesn't change much and swings like a gate...then do you teach that move through the ball? ..good discussion.


SC

[Chris O'Leary]

why does this kid not get there.

You can't expect a kid to achieve exactly the same extension as a pro due to things like...

1. Less strength.
2. Lighter bats.

I don't think a lack of extension at this age is much to worry about.

Also, here's a clip of Pete Rose showing minimal extension.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated_001.g if

[BoardMember]

I may be willing to bet that dollar...I usually see a very similar swing when I videotape a tee swing and a live swing. All that muscle memory is hard to change. Let's say he (or another student) doesn't change much and swings like a gate...then do you teach that move through the ball? ..good discussion.

SC

Well hopefully we'll get a live swing and you can send me your buck!....:dance

Regardless, If you have a kid that spins without releasing the hands then I would agree he's never been taught the entire sequence in isolation.

If you've never done this as a hitting station, I would consider putting him in a 2 position, IE back knee turned forward 45 degrees (about to the second baseman), front foot open the same amount, and shoulders open the same amount, hands at the back shoulder and tight.

Isolate the upper from the lower and drive the hands to the shortstop and bust the ball up the middle before they get extended............

This should be part of any hitting station circuit IMO......:highfive:

[BoardMember]

If you've never done this as a hitting station, I would consider putting him in a 2 position, IE back knee turned forward 45 degrees (about to the second baseman), front foot open the same amount, and shoulders open the same amount, hands at the back shoulder and tight.

Isolate the upper from the lower and drive the hands to the shortstop and bust the ball up the middle before they get extended............

This should be part of any hitting station circuit IMO......:highfive:

http://i28.tinypic.com/2diok2a.gif

[Encinitas]

Swing Coach there is nothing wrong with what you are teaching. Lclifton and I once had a long discussion about the kid developing a visual of the hands moving along a line, say the inner part of the batter's box. Now obviously the hands/arms will round out, however I don't think the hitter necessarily needs to think "semi-circle" or whatever you might want to call it.

Stealth has spoken about a RH hitter imagining his top hand going towards the second base. If you are getting kids really think about driving through the baseball, that's a good thing.

[AltaLomaStorm]

Swing Coach, I do not have a video of Steven hitting in a game. Here is a picture taken during Steven's first year playing baseball, not quite 10 years old during a tournament in Orange County - fully extending after contact. Not the greatest swing in the world, but it shows what you are asking for. The pitch was low that Steven drove to the gap. And I never said he had "little power," as he hits the ball hard to all fields.

[Swing Coach]

Looks great....jsut make sure he still gets extention with all the rotational teaching you have been giving him the last year. I have video of my son who had great extention through contact before I started drillin rotation into his head. His swing is much, much better now, but we have to really work at it for him to stop rotatiing around the ball. WHen I ask him to swing at the batting net and let the bat go STRAIGHT into the net....it always hits the net to the pull side on first instinct until he works it out after a couple tries. Have your guy try it.

Some time have him swing live...get a good hit and check it out compared to his Tee swing. A dollar is riding on it. :)

SC

p.s. I too think he has a great swing...looks a lot like my little guy...just wanted to get the extention discussion going because I have some issues with how to get there.

[Mark H]

Chris, BM and others have had some good things to say. I think you need to study a lot more clips before you solidify your opinion. I'd suggest the degree of extension has a lot to do with the player, the pitch location etc. It's about function not form and there is more than one way to transfer energy to the bat. I think you misunderstand cause and effect and lack understanding of momentum and momentum transfer. Good for you for questioning other's opinions and conclusions though.

[BoardMember]

A dollar is riding on it. :)

SC


Ah no, that IS a game swing, and that IS full extension. SEND ME MY MONEY.......:rofl:

[hiddengem]

Actually the ball is very close to the bat when they have extended. you can still see it in 3 of the 4 photos..which means these swings extend right after contact..through the ball. I know what I am seeing...but I have not been convinced that it is not a teach for those who do not extend (like this swing below). It is very easy to see (in the slow motion version) that there is absolutely no extention in this swing like the mlb swings that have been shown on this thread...his swing is sweet...but in my opinion could be better with some post contact extention through the ball. But the real question is how do the big leaguers get there and why does this kid not get there.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x13/zrxcanyoncarver/?action=view&current=stevengarage3-30-08.flv


Extension through contact is by far one of the most common "things" about the swing you'll here professionals talk about. Driving "through" the ball and trying to prevent pulling off is what they are trying to do. I believe its a great teach.

Here is Freddy S. Staying through the ball and extending through contact.
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/FSanchez.gif

[jbooth]

I have taught my students and my 9-year-old rotational hitting, how to connect the hands with the shoulders...and especially how not to use the hands by throwing them at the ball. Recently, however, I have noticed that a few kids (including my son) are swinging more like a gate and not getting extention through the ball. I wouldn't think this a big deal, except the mlb swing extends through the ball (see below) unless the pitch is very inside. You will notice the mlb bats point straight (these are all good swings), which means at some point their hands were accelerating toward the ball, which makes the elbows straighten after contact. Try this.....take a hairbrush or long wooden spoon and hold it with the spoon part touching your shoulder. Now keep the spoon attached to the shoulder and initiate the swing and you will see that the hands are totally taken out of the equation and this initiation feels very "un-powerful." After doing this exercise and seeing how the mlb swings extend through the ball, I have concluded that the hands are accelerating toward the ball (equally with the back shoulder, but still powerfully toward the ball. I have taken the hands out of my son's swing and he swings more like a gate after contact...not ever letting his hands take his arms straight toward the pitcher. His power suffers because of this. So, to conclude (after the hips begin)I believe there is definitely a "hands" initiation forward through connection, which leads to contact and then immediataly to extention. If you take the hands out...you cannot have a swing like these I am posting. I am also posting the 11 year-old swing that everyone raved about...he rotates...but does not extend at all. Look at the angle of his bottom arm compared to the almost straight angle of the pros. And his dad says he has little power. What do you all think?38768
38769

You showed follow thru's. Here are some shots at just about contact. They rotate into the ball and extend after contact.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/mlb9.jpg

If you think about extending you might get the result you want, or you might end up extending before contact. You might end up pushing the bat at the ball. It's just a matter of learning to rotate with and then let the hands go straight after contact. Actually, because of the arm protector that Bonds wears, he rarely extends his front arm.

[hiddengem]

You showed follow thru's. Here are some shots at just about contact. They rotate into the ball and extend after contact.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/mlb9.jpg

If you think about extending you might get the result you want, or you might end up extending before contact. You might end up pushing the bat at the ball. It's just a matter of learning to rotate with and then let the hands go straight after contact. Actually, because of the arm protector that Bonds wears, he rarely extends his front arm.

Very true.

[Mark H]

If you think about extending you might get the result you want, or you might end up extending before contact. You might end up pushing the bat at the ball. .

In the spirit of any given cue can be golden with any given hitter any given day, sure, absolutely.

[Swing Coach]

HG,

That clip of Freddy is golden. I know it is an outside, or off-speed pitch...but so many kids who I have been teaching rotational mechanics would have totally missed that -- they would have rotated around it. Now understand, these kids have only gone through phase one -- to rotate and swing level or up through the ball etc --- when they started swinging down and using all arms 5-6 lessons ago. But now they don't know how to extend through at the very end and I have taken their hands out of the swing. This will now be phase 2 for me to get them to extend thorugh the ball at the very end of their swing. I bet the big leaguers also talk about how their hands need to be powerful too, but that doesn't mean they are used exclusively in their rotation. I believe they are using their hands from the very beginning in sync with their rotation..then powerfully toward the pitcher at the end -- otherwise, how would their arms extend and power through the ball that straight position? Using the body and hands together to create that power is my guess why you guys are elite.

SC

BM -- 1. A swing that is nearly two seasons old does not count. :highfive: 2. That is a very poor angle for the jury to decide.:rofl:

[wogdoggy]

HG,

That clip of Freddy is golden. I know it is an outside, or off-speed pitch...but so many kids who I have been teaching rotational mechanics would have totally missed that -- they would have rotated around it. Now understand, these kids have only gone through phase one -- to rotate and swing level or up through the ball etc --- when they started swinging down and using all arms 5-6 lessons ago. But now they don't know how to extend through at the very end and I have taken their hands out of the swing. This will now be phase 2 for me to get them to extend thorugh the ball at the very end of their swing. I bet the big leaguers also talk about how their hands need to be powerful too, but that doesn't mean they are used exclusively in their rotation. I believe they are using their hands from the very beginning in sync with their rotation..then powerfully toward the pitcher at the end -- otherwise, how would their arms extend and power through the ball that straight position? Using the body and hands together to create that power is my guess why you guys are elite.

SC

BM -- 1. A swing that is nearly two seasons old does not count. :highfive: 2. That is a very poor angle for the jury to decide.:rofl:





But now they don't know how to extend through at the very end and I have taken their hands out of the swing.

the hands play an important part,,if you cue a player to take his hands outta the swing you will rob him of his athletiscm and ability to hit a ball sweet,,a pro squares up a ball more consisitently and gets another 20 feet on average because of late torque.

alligator arm syndrome..:confused:

[Mark H]

HG,

That clip of Freddy is golden. I know it is an outside, or off-speed pitch...but so many kids who I have been teaching rotational mechanics would have totally missed that -- they would have rotated around it. Now understand, these kids have only gone through phase one -- to rotate and swing level or up through the ball etc --- when they started swinging down and using all arms 5-6 lessons ago. But now they don't know how to extend through at the very end and I have taken their hands out of the swing. This will now be phase 2 for me to get them to extend thorugh the ball at the very end of their swing. I bet the big leaguers also talk about how their hands need to be powerful too, but that doesn't mean they are used exclusively in their rotation. I believe they are using their hands from the very beginning in sync with their rotation..then powerfully toward the pitcher at the end -- otherwise, how would their arms extend and power through the ball that straight position? Using the body and hands together to create that power is my guess why you guys are elite.

SC

BM -- 1. A swing that is nearly two seasons old does not count. :highfive: 2. That is a very poor angle for the jury to decide.:rofl:

I trust you DO see a problem. I fear you are making the wrong diagnosis. A hitter DOES need to get off the merry go round and transfer the energy to the more distal parts (arms, hands, bat) at the right time. This isn't done by pushing the hands forward. I suggest spending time on Englishbey's site, the public side of which is free. Also, Paul's latest online tutorial offering has some interesting things to say about this. Yes Mark, I know Paul can be a toot and I know he and Yeager had a little slap fest but both of them have some great things to say.

[hiddengem]

That clip of Freddy is golden. I know it is an outside, or off-speed pitch...but so many kids who I have been teaching rotational mechanics would have totally missed that -- they would have rotated around it.

I definetly agree. With the good swings you see, the hands and shoulder rotation are in sync for about 2 frames, then you start to see them "getting off the merry go round" as some like to call it. The catch is trying to avoid pushing into contact. I like to use the cue in my head of throwing the bat head back at the pitcher.


But now they don't know how to extend through at the very end and I have taken their hands out of the swing.
Not good.
I bet the big leaguers also talk about how their hands need to be powerful too, but that doesn't mean they are used exclusively in their rotation.
Yep.

Using the body and hands together to create that power is my guess why you guys are elite.

I would agree.

[Swing Coach]

WHen my little guy or a student has trouble getting "off the merry go round" I now ask them to let go of the bat into the net. I tell them to let it go straight ahead (like it was going to go at the pitcher). Inevitably, they let go way to the pull side...because they have no concept of hitting through the ball. You all should try this. After noticing this flaw A couple of weeks ago, I have TAUGHT my little guy this concept and he now can thow the bat straight at the net (first time) and he feels what I am teaching. He is small and scrawny and the ball from the piching machine used to overpower his bat...now he hits it much, much harder...and he still has a rotational swing.

*I have taken so much from this site, I am very appreciative. And I believe the key to using this site properly (in my opinion) is to listen, experiment and be willing to change. Never think you already know it all. I don't

SC

[Chris O'Leary]

WHen my little guy or a student has trouble getting "off the merry go round" I now ask them to let go of the bat into the net. I tell them to let it go straight ahead (like it was going to go at the pitcher). Inevitably, they let go way to the pull side...because they have no concept of hitting through the ball. You all should try this. After noticing this flaw A couple of weeks ago, I have TAUGHT my little guy this concept and he now can thow the bat straight at the net (first time) and he feels what I am teaching. He is small and scrawny and the ball from the piching machine used to overpower his bat...now he hits it much, much harder...and he still has a rotational swing.

This isn't what the best hitters in the world do. Instead, they finish around to the pull side.

I could see this leading to a more linear hand path, which will result in less bat speed.

[Chris O'Leary]

I tell them to let it go straight ahead (like it was going to go at the pitcher). Inevitably, they let go way to the pull side...because they have no concept of hitting through the ball. You all should try this. After noticing this flaw A couple of weeks ago, I have TAUGHT my little guy this concept and he now can thow the bat straight at the net (first time) and he feels what I am teaching. He is small and scrawny and the ball from the piching machine used to overpower his bat...now he hits it much, much harder...and he still has a rotational swing.

Are you a fan of Charley Lau Sr.?

[Erik]

SC,



WHen my little guy or a student has trouble getting "off the merry go round" I now ask them to let go of the bat into the net. I tell them to let it go straight ahead (like it was going to go at the pitcher). Inevitably, they let go way to the pull side...because they have no concept of hitting through the ball


Wouldn't this be an approach for hitters that are off the plate? IMO the rotational hitter get's up on the plate. Having this type of path you're talking about would be pretty hard for the hitter up on the plate.


EL,

[Mark H]

SC,



WHen my little guy or a student has trouble getting "off the merry go round" I now ask them to let go of the bat into the net. I tell them to let it go straight ahead (like it was going to go at the pitcher). Inevitably, they let go way to the pull side...because they have no concept of hitting through the ball


Wouldn't this be an approach for hitters that are off the plate? IMO the rotational hitter get's up on the plate. Having this type of path you're talking about would be pretty hard for the hitter up on the plate.


EL,

Maybe that IS what he meant and maybe I'm just interpreting his words through my expectations. My thought though was he's talking about creating the whip/unhinging of the wrist on time. I don't care for the "hitting through the ball" cue as I think it's likely to promote pushing but he may be chasing a good goal here with a reasonable drill. Can't say for sure what he means but that's what I'm hoping he's describing.

[Erik]

Maybe that IS what he meant and maybe I'm just interpreting his words through my expectations. My thought though was he's talking about creating the whip/unhinging of the wrist on time. I don't care for the "hitting through the ball" cue as I think it's likely to promote pushing but he may be chasing a good goal here with a reasonable drill. Can't say for sure what he means but that's what I'm hoping he's describing.

Mark,

I understand what SC is describing. I spent a lot of time throwing the bat straight ahead as a drill. My thoughts at that time wasn't about the body being involved. This IMO is an armsy swing. I find if the hitter is off the plate the hitter works more gap to gap. When the hitter is up on the plate you have to get the bat to whip around and meet it out in front. I don't see SC's approach working in this condition without getting jamed. I like the idea of setting off the plate to make the inside pitch out over the plate. I like the gap to gap approach to hitting.



EL,

[Swing Coach]

It's simple.....I have clips of about 30 big leaugers and 90 percent of them have taken a swing that results in the below picture. I have noticed some kids I am teaching who do not get to this position (they rotate past this..never getting their arms straight..let alone straight toward the pitcher. So I am trying to solve that problem...looking for solutions here. I am looking for comments only if you believe the photo below. If you do believe it then I am looking for comments on how the mlb'ers get there and how to get kids to get there.



SC

[Swing Coach]

This is what I (and HG) are talking about:

38868

[Deemax]

Swing, you pics didnt show up.

Is this what you are referring to?

(Note, your pics just showed up)

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/img034.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/5334840_36_2-1.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/80YamaOh-1.jpg

[Erik]

This is what I (and HG) are talking about:

38868



SC,

I just watched these clips off the RVP. This is just extension from a good rotational swing. I see this position in all good swings. Some call this the power V. Take a look at the catchers view clips on that software. You can see Manny's same clip you posted from behind to see how this swing was delivered. Take a look and let me know.







EL,

[mightylakers]

This isn't what the best hitters in the world do. Instead, they finish around to the pull side.

I could see this leading to a more linear hand path, which will result in less bat speed.

My son once had this problem also, he rotated well and then he sort of pushed bat into the ball. If I just look at his dry swing, it appears pretty powerful, but it's another story on the field, he kept on hitting weak ground ball or weak line drive. My understanding is that once the arm is disconnected from the body, it can only generate the max power for a very short period of time therefore the ball will be hit weakly if the contact missing that max power window.

[Deemax]

This is what I (and HG) are talking about:

I think the position your describing is important. Its also important how you get to this position. I coached with a great hitting instuctor who described it (for a LHH) as releasing the barrel of the bat toward leftcenter. He placed alot of effort on how the hands released through and after impact. Kind of like placing an emphasis on playing a draw instead of a slice. The results in the players he worked with were incredible. We hit many home runs that summer (wood bat league) with players who came into the league stuggling to hit the ball out of the infield.

[BoardMember]

I've always believed that how the top hand works against the bottom hand into contact determines the result of the Power V...........

The power V is always left of contact for the RHH, and right of contact with the LHH.

Reinforcing a "two hands out to contact" causes power loss at collision IMO.......Throwing the bat straight in the net is sub-optimal for top hand release IMO.

Throwing a bat and purposely causing a very hard helicopter action of the bat teaches proper release of the top hand against the bottom hand.

If AP released this bat to the 3rd baseman, how hard would it twirl?........:dance

http://i27.tinypic.com/35n0e1i.gif

[Mark H]

Mark,

I understand what SC is describing. I spent a lot of time throwing the bat straight ahead as a drill. My thoughts at that time wasn't about the body being involved. This IMO is an armsy swing.


EL,

Can be. Depends how you do it. Don't use it much myself but like any other drill it can be done poorly. I don't know that I'd really describe it as a drill but rather a way to make a point to a hitter.

[Mark H]

If AP released this bat to the 3rd baseman, how hard would it twirl?........:dance


How about if there were no ball there and he released it at the pitcher?

[Swing Coach]

good discussion....so what is the teach for a kid? There are many kids who are so good at rotating..and their swing looks powerful..but it really isn't because they lack that extension we are talking about--just like the 11-year-old.

1. HG says the mlbers talk about hitting through the ball to get there. ...so is it good enough to just think this way when practicing. .."to exlode through the ball"...and you will get some of that extension for that brief, but important moment? Perhaps when you have good beginning rotation to get your swing going, there is no harm (and perhaps great gain) to tell yourself to hit through the ball.

2. The act of the bottom arm straightening or "unbending" has to be where that additional power is coming from...the same power some kids lack whose bottom arm doesn't straighten.**If it is...how do you teach it? **Look closely at the botom elbow in the Pujols clip above and you will see a subtle, but explosive movement of his arm straightening.

SC

[BoardMember]

How about if there were no ball there and he released it at the pitcher?

Then he'd be drivin it to Right Center.........

[BoardMember]

good discussion....

**Look closely at the botom elbow in the Pujols clip above and you will see a subtle, but explosive movement of his arm straightening.

SC

I don't think it's subtle at all. Bonds describes it as "punching" with to top hand. How subtle is that?

[Chris O'Leary]

I think the position your describing is important. Its also important how you get to this position. I coached with a great hitting instuctor who described it (for a LHH) as releasing the barrel of the bat toward leftcenter. He placed alot of effort on how the hands released through and after impact. Kind of like placing an emphasis on playing a draw instead of a slice. The results in the players he worked with were incredible. We hit many home runs that summer (wood bat league) with players who came into the league stuggling to hit the ball out of the infield.

Why does this matter?

It's after the point of contact.

[LClifton]

Swing Coach,
Great question regarding extension.
My opinion (and I've had some success with kids doing this) is the position of the head and what it does or DOESN'T do at launch can contribute to proper "extension."

HG recently talked about staying behind the ball...I visualize something very good with those words.

So how do you "move out" ---YET "stay back"?

What I see on video is ML hitters load back and then when they launch,,,the head is very steady---they stay "behind" the ball while the rest of the body rotates "under the chin".
Then----
The lower body responds, IMO, by completing the weight shift into the front side (very powerfully) IF the head does not "drift" forward. The arms extend naturally, timely.

This "stable / non-drifting head" helps to eliminate
*the "reaching out" to pitches
as a result the....
*arms are more bent at contact (depending on location)
*lower body is more explosive
*arm extension occurs post contact

Just for an experiment;
From a good athletic posture,
Over load---turn your shoulders way around (like a golf swing),,,once you get there---consciously hold your head steady ("back")...
Feel what happens with the lower body?
With the head held steady do your arms get to extension?
If the head drifts forward, weight shift is improper and the arms don't / won't extend.
(Caution: don't lean back onto the back leg)

I believe the quality of rotation improves (more rapid, more balanced) when the head doesn't move forward at launch,,,and "arm extension" happens.

[Slapper23]

Excellent post, Loren.

Mike

[mightylakers]

Swing Coach,
Great question regarding extension.
My opinion (and I've had some success with kids doing this) is the position of the head and what it does or DOESN'T do at launch can contribute to proper "extension."

HG recently talked about staying behind the ball...I visualize something very good with those words.

So how do you "move out" ---YET "stay back"?

What I see on video is ML hitters load back and then when they launch,,,the head is very steady---they stay "behind" the ball while the rest of the body rotates "under the chin".
Then----
The lower body responds, IMO, by completing the weight shift into the front side (very powerfully) IF the head does not "drift" forward. The arms extend naturally, timely.

This "stable / non-drifting head" helps to eliminate
*the "reaching out" to pitches
as a result the....
*arms are more bent at contact (depending on location)
*lower body is more explosive
*arm extension occurs post contact

Just for an experiment;
From a good athletic posture,
Over load---turn your shoulders way around (like a golf swing),,,once you get there---consciously hold your head steady ("back")...
Feel what happens with the lower body?
With the head held steady do your arms get to extension?
If the head drifts forward, weight shift is improper and the arms don't / won't extend.
(Caution: don't lean back onto the back leg)

I believe the quality of rotation improves (more rapid, more balanced) when the head doesn't move forward at launch,,,and "arm extension" happens.

Very good observations. here are two examples

for the stride http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/th_braun1small.gif

and no stride

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/th_gordon1frontside.gif
It appears to me the head will move forward with body during stride, however the head will stay steady once the launch phase starts. As for the no stride the head stay in there all the time

[Deemax]

Why does this matter?

It's after the point of contact.


If it doesnt matter to you dont worry about it. Its one less thing you will have to paste into your website.

I know why its important. Players that I have coached and seen improve know why its important.

[Mark H]

Then he'd be drivin it to Right Center.........

But the bat would be spinning assuming a good unhinge/get off the merry go round. I can see where it could make the light go off in a kid's head.

[Mark H]

It's simple.....I have clips of about 30 big leaugers and 90 percent of them have taken a swing that results in the below picture. I have noticed some kids I am teaching who do not get to this position (they rotate past this..never getting their arms straight..let alone straight toward the pitcher. So I am trying to solve that problem...looking for solutions here. I am looking for comments only if you believe the photo below. If you do believe it then I am looking for comments on how the mlb'ers get there and how to get kids to get there.



SC

Start the swing right and you will likely finish it right. Good powerful connected rotation is the precursor to a good whip/unhinging of the wrists. If you really want to understand you know where I'd send you.

[Mark H]

I coached with a great hitting instuctor who described it (for a LHH) as releasing the barrel of the bat toward leftcenter. .

As opposed to releasing it where else?

[Deemax]

As opposed to releasing it where else?

I dont know what your looking for.... what do you think?

[BoardMember]

Oh ok gotcha. Yep, the light definately goes off. When I've done the "throw the bat at the pitcher drill", both hands disconnect and head straight out.

Bad.........

That's why I like the "helicopter drill" to help the feeling of top release.......

I guarantee if the top hand releases properly with extension, the bottom hand forearm will extend after contact.......

While Lorens post is excellent as usual, keeping the head steady is really as much about "blocking" as anything else.

What I've found is emphasizing blocking for release assistance can result in a "negative movement" (IE push back) into contact *for some young hitters*........

The "helicopter drill" used with a *tee and no ball* can be very usefull to all fields, IE twirl it to the 2nd baseman, pitcher and shortstop for different pitch locations.

The kids love it because twirling the bat is WAY more fun then just throwing straight with both hands. They challenge each other for revolutions AND distance.......

It really reinforces top hand release and extension using both hand properly, IE top hand against bottom hand like this clip......

http://i27.tinypic.com/35n0e1i.gif

But the bat would be spinning assuming a good unhinge/get off the merry go round. I can see where it could make the light go off in a kid's head.

[Mark H]

I dont know what your looking for.... what do you think?

What were they doing before?

[jbooth]

Swing Coach,
Great question regarding extension.
My opinion (and I've had some success with kids doing this) is the position of the head and what it does or DOESN'T do at launch can contribute to proper "extension."

HG recently talked about staying behind the ball...I visualize something very good with those words.

So how do you "move out" ---YET "stay back"?

What I see on video is ML hitters load back and then when they launch,,,the head is very steady---they stay "behind" the ball while the rest of the body rotates "under the chin".
Then----
The lower body responds, IMO, by completing the weight shift into the front side (very powerfully) IF the head does not "drift" forward. The arms extend naturally, timely.

This "stable / non-drifting head" helps to eliminate
*the "reaching out" to pitches
as a result the....
*arms are more bent at contact (depending on location)
*lower body is more explosive
*arm extension occurs post contact

Just for an experiment;
From a good athletic posture,
Over load---turn your shoulders way around (like a golf swing),,,once you get there---consciously hold your head steady ("back")...
Feel what happens with the lower body?
With the head held steady do your arms get to extension?
If the head drifts forward, weight shift is improper and the arms don't / won't extend.
(Caution: don't lean back onto the back leg)

I believe the quality of rotation improves (more rapid, more balanced) when the head doesn't move forward at launch,,,and "arm extension" happens.

You're right, the head must stay steady. Not only for the reasons you mentioned, but if it moves more than a couple of inches in any direction, your chances of making contact at all, diminish greatly. The bat is rotating around your body and the head is the primary axis. If the axis moves, the direction of the bathead moves.

In Tom Robson's book, The Hitting Edge, he quotes from a study done in 2003 where they studied the head movement of all MLB hitters, and from front foot being weighted, up until contact, the head never moves more than 2.1 inches on balls that are hit well.

[Chris O'Leary]

Oh ok gotcha. Yep, the light definately goes off. When I've done the "throw the bat at the pitcher drill", both hands disconnect and head straight out.

Same here.

I would rather teach and practice connection.

If you get the connection right, I think you'll get extension.

I certainly don't want to practice extension.

[jima]

Same here.

I would rather teach and practice connection.

If you get the connection right, I think you'll get extension.

I certainly don't want to practice extension.

Chris, I've been around coaches that only teach connection (spinners). Their students flunk out against better competition. They have to crowd the plate and pull everything...well timed extension is what separates the good from the great. That's why most great hitters spend hours hitting the ball to the opposite field. In HG's vid, the player clearly did not have max bat speed and total connection...if he had tried to, he would have missed the ball. On middle out pitches, most of the time you have to rotate into collision and extend...it is a teach and what great hitters do....don't let that one Rose vid be the driving force of your teaching philosophy. jima

[LClifton]

well timed extension is what separates the good from the great.
(I added the bold)
Ding !!! Yes !

[Deemax]

What were they doing before?

Alot of the kids that came in that summer had the mindset of keeping thier hands inside the ball... This can be fine and dandy except when exaggerated at and through contact. The worst cases would hit the ball flush to center field with a noticable fade or slice on it. To go along with this thier best bolts were pulled 50ft foul. He worked with them on attempting more of a draw.

[Mark H]

Sounds like they had a little of this. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=xndwvjyz04.zebra_s?p=17&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 A push disconnect like this (and it only takes a little compared to this extreme example) would produce both results you describe. The bolts pulled foul are because this mindset of keeping the hands inside the ball or sometimes described as hands to the ball delays the unhinging/whip such that they can only hit it hard foul.

[Go Cardinals]

This isn't what the best hitters in the world do. Instead, they finish around to the pull side.

I could see this leading to a more linear hand path, which will result in less bat speed.

Wow... I've spent a minute now thinking of how to respond to this...

I'll just say this, go to Santa Clara university and University of Kentucky (both d1, and Uk has amazing hitting) and one of the most used drills is to throw the bat.

[chesspirate]

Chris, I've been around coaches that only teach connection (spinners). Their students flunk out against better competition. They have to crowd the plate and pull everything...

First off, connection is not synonymous with spinning. To try and combine the two is disingenuous, at best.

Spinning is the definition of one type of improper rotation taking place, (another would be hip slide) regardless of if connection is being kept by the hitter or not.

And second, it's pretty difficult just to make the assertion that it is the connection being taught that is the limiting factor to the teams success. Especially considering that hitters who show good connection in their swings usually have quicker swings.

To add, a connected swing is a more effecient swing, and all the hitters that i've worked with (including my own swing) were able to hit the ball to the opposite field just as easily, and with more authority than without the emphasis on connection.

Show me how connection detracts from a hitters ability to hit the ball to the opposite field. I don't think you can.

Doesn't mean that younger hitters can't mess it up, or that coaches could be less than perfect. (Funny you attack the theory solely and not the coaches ability)

[Mark H]

Good point. The statement "Chris, I've been around coaches that only teach connection (spinners)." says to me the author understands probably neither term but most certainly one of the terms as I use them since they are talking about two different things.

[jima]

First off, connection is not synonymous with spinning. To try and combine the two is disingenuous, at best.

Spinning is the definition of one type of improper rotation taking place, (another would be hip slide) regardless of if connection is being kept by the hitter or not.

And second, it's pretty difficult just to make the assertion that it is the connection being taught that is the limiting factor to the teams success. Especially considering that hitters who show good connection in their swings usually have quicker swings.

To add, a connected swing is a more effecient swing, and all the hitters that i've worked with (including my own swing) were able to hit the ball to the opposite field just as easily, and with more authority than without the emphasis on connection.

Show me how connection detracts from a hitters ability to hit the ball to the opposite field. I don't think you can.

Doesn't mean that younger hitters can't mess it up, or that coaches could be less than perfect. (Funny you attack the theory solely and not the coaches ability)

Easy guys. I specifically said "coaches that ONLY teach connection". Maybe my definition of good "connection" is not the same as Steve's since admittedly I'm am not an PCR expert. My interpretation of Chris' "connection" was his often used "spinning skater" analogy. You undoubtedly know the kind of hitter I'm talking about: the one's that have to crowd the plate in order to cover the outside half and the one's that hit loud pulled fouls on pitches on the inside. I interpret connection as a well timed athletic move starting from the ground up to the hips, shoulders and hands...when everything is linked correctly, its a well "connected" swing. I also think that some pitches require some disconnection to make contact. The author suggests to Mark/Chess, that this is not PCR site so please don't frame responses into that hitting philosophy. Believe me, my response was not even a veiled attack at PCR...which I happen to think has most things, that I understand, correct.

[RayR]

Easy guys. I specifically said "coaches that ONLY teach connection". Maybe my definition of good "connection" is not the same as Steve's since admittedly I'm am not an PCR expert. My interpretation of Chris' "connection" was his often used "spinning skater" analogy. You undoubtedly know the kind of hitter I'm talking about: the one's that have to crowd the plate in order to cover the outside half and the one's that hit loud pulled fouls on pitches on the inside. I interpret connection as a well timed athletic move starting from the ground up to the hips, shoulders and hands...when everything is linked correctly, its a well "connected" swing. I also think that some pitches require some disconnection to make contact. The author suggests to Mark/Chess, that this is not PCR site so please don't frame responses into that hitting philosophy. Believe me, my response was not even a veiled attack at PCR...which I happen to think has most things, that I understand, correct.

This is not an attack, but an opportunity to illustrate the absence (Once again) of teaching posture in a hitters approach. Specifically, the idea that a "connected" swing (as it applies to PCR or however else it can be applied) cannot cover the entire plate or that all it produces is pulled foul balls on inside pitches.

[chesspirate]

The author suggests to Mark/Chess, that this is not PCR site so please don't frame responses into that hitting philosophy.

I appreciate your response Jima, but the term connection originated at Setpro/HM some time ago and has been used in a very distinct way there and with EH.com. This is another one of those internet things where what you say means one thing and what someone else says means another. I'm just trying to clear some things up.

[Swing Coach]

Guys ---I think we have proven that in high level swings, extension happens just after contact...this is clear with previous pics of mlb players showing definition extension (arms straight) just after contact. There is more evidence when HG states that big leaguers talk a lot about extension and hitting through the ball. The debate is whether it is a teach. HG (and others) say it is a teach. In looking at the video BM posted of Pujols... it is obvious that he has a nice, connected swing, but toward the end just before contact, his bottom arm fires toward the ball in order to hit through it. I think it is a teach...but it is only a teach for a student who has learned proper rotational mechanics and has good connection in the beginning of his swing, BUT DOES NOT EXTEND and nevger gets off the merry-go-round after contact. If your student does one and not the other...then I think you better teach it to him.

SC

**I have found that the throw the bat drill helps solve the (no) extension problem with kids who have a connected, nice swing. These kids rotate past extension and when doing this drill, never throw their arms straight out at the pitcher. However, a newbie student, who does not have a good base seems to always throw the arms at the pitcher when asked to do this drill.

[Mark H]

Easy guys. I specifically said "coaches that ONLY teach connection". Maybe my definition of good "connection" is not the same as Steve's since admittedly I'm am not an PCR expert. My interpretation of Chris' "connection" was his often used "spinning skater" analogy. You undoubtedly know the kind of hitter I'm talking about: the one's that have to crowd the plate in order to cover the outside half and the one's that hit loud pulled fouls on pitches on the inside. I interpret connection as a well timed athletic move starting from the ground up to the hips, shoulders and hands...when everything is linked correctly, its a well "connected" swing. I also think that some pitches require some disconnection to make contact. The author suggests to Mark/Chess, that this is not PCR site so please don't frame responses into that hitting philosophy. Believe me, my response was not even a veiled attack at PCR...which I happen to think has most things, that I understand, correct.


My post wasn't intended to convey displeasure but it probably did. My apologies. Spinning, to me, means non-sequential one piece rotation similar to the 16 year old in this thread. http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75855 Not optimal but still can be very effective. A good place to start from compared to say lunging and bat drag. I would say a good spinner is the next step before learning good rotation from the point of view of, who was it, Bernstein's degrees of freedom learning principle.

Connection would be defined as connecting the energy of the rotating shoulders to the bat in an optimal way most notably demonstrated regularly in MLB. Do that and I think you will get the good whip after good lag. Boardmember, I think, would argue there is also a top hand push at the end to assist. I can't prove that isn't some part of it and, either way, I don't think it's necessarly a bad teach if it gets the result you want. I'd be concerned about creating disconnection or casting talking about that but it apparently works for BM. That's about the only quibble I can remember having with BM and it just drove Joebad crazy I wouldn't argue with BM on the point which amused me greatly. :)

[BoardMember]

Boardmember, I think, would argue there is also a top hand push at the end to assist. I can't prove that isn't some part of it and, either way, I don't think it's necessarly a bad teach if it gets the result you want. I'd be concerned about creating disconnection or casting talking about that but it apparently works for BM. That's about the only quibble I can remember having with BM and it just drove Joebad crazy I wouldn't argue with BM on the point which amused me greatly. :)

Mark, I feel obligated to clarify that I have never said "push" the top hand into contact.

That is actually a term Richard came up with for my "late torque" analogy, where I said the top hand "flips" or "throws" the bat head past the bottom hand through contact, which I have always, and still do advocate. This is HUGELY differenct then "pushing".........

The problem is that Richard argued that with his "launch and spend", this late torque wasn't possible, and THAT pissed him off, so he "made up" the "push" to discredit me, and give himself something to rip on me about..........:dance

In fact, if you recall, I said if you "push" into contact this is what happens:

http://i16.tinypic.com:80/6311s9g.gif

Richard has since revised his "launch and spend" to the "GO frame" or "point of no return". Which ironically, IS when I say the swing is being assisted.

Maybe he picked that up from our exchanges, or maybe he just figured it out on his own.........:confused: I don't really care......

I actually exchanged idea's with Dave (HG) via PM on this issue and he agrees that the top hand absolutely assists late in the swing.

I have ALWAYS said the the top hand drives past the bottom hand through contact. I've also stated many times here (and on Eteamz) that the fulcrum (pivot point) of the bat changes from the knob (as it chases away from the bat head) to a point between the hands (as it pivots back on itself), late in the swing, creating late torque:

Like this:

http://i15.tinypic.com:80/45420pt.gif

And like this, from one of my former players now at Arizona with 2 championship rings:

http://i10.tinypic.com:80/6cyuko8.gif

In fact, I don't know how anyone could argue against top hand torque late in the swing.

So no, I won't now, nor have I ever, argued a "push" into contact OK?........:highfive:

I'm pretty convinced from being in the box, that IF you have proper extention of the rear arm, without extending (pushing the fulcrum) of the lead arm, you HAVE top hand torque into contact.

It's time to stop mis-representing what I believe happens late in the swing OK?....:highfive:

If you don't agree with the "flip" or "throw" that creates THT late that's ok too......:)

[jima]

BM, it looks like your student has extension before contact. I assume that is due to pitch location. If I'm correct in seeing extension before contact does that contradict those that suggest that posture + connection is all that's needed to handle an outside pitch. Listen, Chess and Ray I'm trying to understand not to diminish anyone's hitting philosophy...I've always thought that the arms had to extend to the outside pitch...if I'm wrong, so be it. jima

[BoardMember]

BM, it looks like your student has extension before contact. I assume that is due to pitch location. If I'm correct in seeing extension before contact does that contradict those that suggest that posture + connection is all that's needed to handle an outside pitch. Listen, Chess and Ray I'm trying to understand not to diminish anyone's hitting philosophy...I've always thought that the arms had to extend to the outside pitch...if I'm wrong, so be it. jima

Jima, it depends on what you consider "extension". If extension is "a fully extended rear arm", I suggest you look closer. If extension is "extending" the rear arm into contact, Yes it is, and it should be.

The rear arm will release sooner on the outside also. In extreme cases WAY outside, the rear arm could reach "full extension" to reach the pitch.

The lead arm is a NO TEACH regarding extension IMO......It starts somewhat extended, and IS further extended by the rear arm doing it's job.......

IF you teach "dual extension" into contact, you will push the fulcrum and eliminate any torque delivered to the bat head by the hands......

Pitch location will absolutely dictate WHEN full extension of either arm is achieved.....

Do that clear it up for you?.........:dance

[jima]

got it. thanks

[BoardMember]

If I'm correct in seeing extension before contact does that contradict those that suggest that posture + connection is all that's needed to handle an outside pitch.

Jima, I've not read anyones philosophy here that limits hitting to posture and connection........

However, this IS the base for hitting IMO.......

[RayR]

BM, it looks like your student has extension before contact. I assume that is due to pitch location. If I'm correct in seeing extension before contact does that contradict those that suggest that posture + connection is all that's needed to handle an outside pitch. Listen, Chess and Ray I'm trying to understand not to diminish anyone's hitting philosophy...I've always thought that the arms had to extend to the outside pitch...if I'm wrong, so be it. jima

Yes, the arms would adjust to an outside pitch, but without proper posture and connection present it would simply be an arm swing.

My main point is that proper posture can be all that is needed to handle a variety of pitch locations without the need to make huge adjustments with the arms.

But as an example, take a look at the Adam Dunn clip and the stills at foot plant and contact. Without the postural adjustment Dunn is not hitting this pitch hard. And I would say that without being connected in the first few frames there could not be a postural adjustment.

[jima]

Yes, the arms would adjust to an outside pitch, but without proper posture and connection present it would simply be an arm swing.

My main point is that proper posture can be all that is needed to handle a variety of pitch locations without the need to make huge adjustments with the arms.

But as an example, take a look at the Adam Dunn clip and the stills at foot plant and contact. Without the postural adjustment Dunn is not hitting this pitch hard. And I would say that without being connected in the first few frames there could not be a postural adjustment.

OK, so when my kid's hitting instructor tells him that he's standing up too tall and to get his butt out (which makes him look a lot like Dunn), that will make it easier for him modify his posture during his swing and hit the outside pitch?

[BoardMember]

OK, so when my kid's hitting instructor tells him that he's standing up too tall and to get his butt out (which makes him look a lot like Dunn), that will make it easier for him modify his posture during his swing and hit the outside pitch?

For the same physical reason it's one hell of a lot easier to "come-up" for a grounder then "get down" on one.........

Start down (tilted), adjust up........:dance

[Chris O'Leary]

good discussion....so what is the teach for a kid? There are many kids who are so good at rotating..and their swing looks powerful..but it really isn't because they lack that extension we are talking about--just like the 11-year-old.

1. HG says the mlbers talk about hitting through the ball to get there. ...so is it good enough to just think this way when practicing. .."to exlode through the ball"...and you will get some of that extension for that brief, but important moment? Perhaps when you have good beginning rotation to get your swing going, there is no harm (and perhaps great gain) to tell yourself to hit through the ball.

2. The act of the bottom arm straightening or "unbending" has to be where that additional power is coming from...the same power some kids lack whose bottom arm doesn't straighten.**If it is...how do you teach it? **Look closely at the botom elbow in the Pujols clip above and you will see a subtle, but explosive movement of his arm straightening.

You confuse cause and effect multiple times in this post.

[Stealth]

In order to hit through the ball you have to be in a position before contact that allows you to hit through the ball. In other words, you better get your hands right (palm up/palm down) early in the swing.

[BoardMember]

Well you've said numerous time now. Care to explain the HOW and WHEN this occurs?

In order to hit through the ball you have to be in a position before contact that allows you to hit through the ball. In other words, you better get your hands right (palm up/palm down) early in the swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

In order to hit through the ball you have to be in a position before contact that allows you to hit through the ball. In other words, you better get your hands right (palm up/palm down) early in the swing.

I'm not convinced that this is that important of a cue and isn't just a function of the grip. Why won't you be plam up/palm due at the point of contact of you take a knocker knuckle or axe grip?

Can you provide an example of someone who ISN'T palm up/palm down at the point of contact?

[wogdoggy]

For the same physical reason it's one hell of a lot easier to "come-up" for a grounder then "get down" on one.........

Start down (tilted), adjust up........:dance

start tilted? nah..




bend knees yes...but eyes level upper torso vertical


http://youtube.com/watch?v=B0TLUN7KRBI

[jbooth]

start tilted? nah..




bend knees yes...but eyes level upper torso vertical


http://youtube.com/watch?v=B0TLUN7KRBI

Can you show me ONE MLB hitter who has his torso vertical at contact?

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds-front2.jpg http://firstpickclub.com/images/CraigMonroe_2006_HomeRun_005.jpg
http://firstpickclub.com/images/helton.jpghttp://firstpickclub.com/images/manny_contact with markup.jpg
http://firstpickclub.com/images/mauerlag.jpghttp://firstpickclub.com/images/pujolsfromfront2 1.jpghttp://firstpickclub.com/images/pujolsfromfront2 2.jpg
http://firstpickclub.com/video/giambihips.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/mcabrerahips.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/wright1.gif

[wogdoggy]

at contact? ...I like the guy he was the mets hitting coach...keeps the eyes level..I dont want a team of moises alous...

[jbooth]

start tilted? nah..




bend knees yes...but eyes level upper torso vertical


http://youtube.com/watch?v=B0TLUN7KRBI

See any verticals here?

http://firstpickclub.com/video/delgadohips2.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/frankthomaships.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/jeterhips.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/jolerudhips.gif
http://firstpickclub.com/video/ortizhips.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/sorianofront1.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/sosa01.gifhttp://firstpickclub.com/video/teixeirahips.gif

[BoardMember]

start tilted? nah..
bend knees yes...but eyes level upper torso vertical
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B0TLUN7KRBI

Great advise if your neck was "welded" to your spine. Since it isn't, I'd suggest some tilt to start for the reason I stated above:

http://i32.tinypic.com/4hvacz.gifhttp://i28.tinypic.com/mm4lz7.gifhttp://i32.tinypic.com/b4x46w.gif

[jbooth]

at contact? ...I like the guy he was the mets hitting coach...keeps the eyes level..I dont want a team of moises alous...

They're all tilted through contact.

[BoardMember]

at contact? ...I like the guy he was the mets hitting coach...keeps the eyes level..I dont want a team of moises alous...

You can obviously tilt and keep the head/eyes level......

He says "stay tall from the waist up" (don't crunch), and "keep the head up and still".

Not "get your torso vertical"........

Face it Wog, you stepped on it this time........:dance

[wogdoggy]

You can obviously tilt and keep the head/eyes level......

He says "stay tall from the waist up" (don't crunch), and "keep the head up and still".

Not "get your torso vertical"........

Face it Wog, you stepped on it this time........:dance

stepped in what....?crunching over isnt gonna help this guy hit the outside pitch lets face it...If his swing doesnt have early batspeed via a running start he will tend to freeze up on anything outside..tilted or not..he says stall TALL from the waist up..you say tilt ,,what did i step in?

[jbooth]

stepped in what....?crunching over isnt gonna help this guy hit the outside pitch lets face it...If his swing doesnt have early batspeed via a running start he will tend to freeze up on anything outside..tilted or not..he says stall TALL from the waist up..you say tilt ,,what did i step in?

There is no "early" batspeed.

And, can you please show me ONE guy who is vertical in any of the jpg's and gif's I posted above, or in any of the swings in the video below.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/touchem1.wmv

They ALL have the spine at a slant, on a tilt, they are leaning over, whatever you want to call it, it is NOT vertical. Vertical means straight up and down. Nobody's back is straight up and down. The red lines below show the tilt, slant, lean. So do you REALLY mean vertical? Or, do you mean something else? You sound like Richard.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/tilt1.gif
http://firstpickclub.com/video/tilt2.gif
http://firstpickclub.com/video/tilt3.gif

You said bend knees yes...but eyes level upper torso vertical

Now you say "TALL", what the heck is "tall?" If your knees are bent and you are leaning over, you aren't "tall" either. You are "crouched." To stand "tall" would be to get as high as you could, which would require a vertical posture, and none of them are even close to vertical or standing as tall as their measurable physical height. They are standing shorter than their physical height. I'd say you stepped pretty deep into it.

[BoardMember]

stepped in what....?crunching over isnt gonna help this guy hit the outside pitch lets face it...If his swing doesnt have early batspeed via a running start he will tend to freeze up on anything outside..tilted or not..he says stall TALL from the waist up..you say tilt ,,what did i step in?

First of all, I said "stepped on it" not "in it". I was just ribbin ya a little.

Second, athletic posture in almost everything we do regarding swinging anything includes a straight, BUT NOT VERTICAL spine. This is true in Golf, Tennis and Hitting.

You said "upper torso vertical".......

I said Tilted, not "crunched" or "bent over".......

You can argue these positions all you want..............But argue with these guys not me......:dance

http://i32.tinypic.com/4hvacz.gifhttp://i28.tinypic.com/mm4lz7.gifhttp://i32.tinypic.com/b4x46w.gif

[wogdoggy]

There is no "early" batspeed.

And, can you please show me ONE guy who is vertical in any of the jpg's and gif's I posted above, or in any of the swings in the video below.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/touchem1.wmv

They ALL have the spine at a slant, on a tilt, they are leaning over, whatever you want to call it, it is NOT vertical. Vertical means straight up and down. Nobody's back is straight up and down. The red lines below show the tilt, slant, lean. So do you REALLY mean vertical? Or, do you mean something else? You sound like Richard.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/tilt1.gif
http://firstpickclub.com/video/tilt2.gif
http://firstpickclub.com/video/tilt3.gif

You said

Now you say "TALL", what the heck is "tall?" If your knees are bent and you are leaning over, you aren't "tall" either. You are "crouched." To stand "tall" would be to get as high as you could, which would require a vertical posture, and none of them are even close to vertical or standing as tall as their measurable physical height. They are standing shorter than their physical height. I'd say you stepped pretty deep into it.



there is no early batspeed? really? i'll tell u what john get in your tilted position and hold on to the bat let someone pitch you outside and watch how your body will automatically freezes up because it knows it cant build enuf batspeed to do anything with that pitch..no running start and the outside pitch becomes very very hard to hit..

glad you guys all know more than rick down..stall tall eyes level


the you sound like richard really really hurts though although i hear at another board that john and richard may be the same person.....now thats gotta hurt...lol...just kiddin john

[Mark H]

Woggy, how do you spend all this time reading about hitting on the net, ordering materials on hitting and yet here you are? It's like you walked through a field of ripe strawberries and are proud of the basket of rocks you returned with. I guess some of the seed falls amongst the weeds, brambles or rocks. Can't save'em all I keep telling myself. Here's one more try. Woggy, you are headed down a dead end path.

[BoardMember]

His name is Jim......:rofl:

there is no early batspeed? really? i'll tell u what john get in your tilted position and hold on to the bat let someone pitch you outside and watch how your body will automatically freezes up because it knows it cant build enuf batspeed to do anything with that pitch..no running start and the outside pitch becomes very very hard to hit..

glad you guys all know more than rick down..stall tall eyes level


the you sound like richard really really hurts though although i hear at another board that john and richard may be the same person.....now thats gotta hurt...lol...just kiddin john

[wogdoggy]

Woggy, how do you spend all this time reading about hitting on the net, ordering materials on hitting and yet here you are? It's like you walked through a field of ripe strawberries and are proud of the basket of rocks you returned with. I guess some of the seed falls amongst the weeds, brambles or rocks. Can't save'em all I keep telling myself. Here's one more try. Woggy, you are headed down a dead end path.


mark h,,been down your path and talk about a dead hand street i mean end.but hey at least your loyal...

[wogdoggy]

His name is Jim......:rofl:

ok jim....:hp

[jima]

Wo, its easy to understand how if you are in an athletic postion and tilted you can cover the outside part of the plate. If you keep your upper torso vertical, how do you physically cover the outside corner?

[Slapper23]

Hang in there, Woggy. You've entered a so-called field of ripe strawberries, remember. Or are those really brussell sprouts, but the guys with the rose colored glasses continue to think they're strawberries? If you don't agree with them, you best be gettin' your mind right, buddy. There is no other way...can't you see!? :D

Mike

[Mark H]

mark h,,been down your path and talk about a dead hand street i mean end.but hey at least your loyal...

All of you are my witnesses. I tried. The video evidence is obvious as repeatedly hammered in on here by BM, Jim and others. Some of the time the seed just falls on the rocks.

[wogdoggy]

Hang in there, Woggy. You've entered a so-called field of ripe strawberries, remember. Or are those really brussell sprouts, but the guys with the rose colored glasses continue to think they're strawberries? If you don't agree with them, you best be gettin' your mind right, buddy. There is no other way...can't you see!? :D

Mike

i guess you can say mark h is on a mission. although he does have a future as a presidential campaign manager..

[wogdoggy]

All of you are my witnesses. I tried. The video evidence is obvious as repeatedly hammered in on here by BM, Jim and others. Some of the time the seed just falls on the rocks.

mark h just dont follow to close in case he decides to stop for some reason...donny and dmac were right all along...my opinion...:dance

[Mark H]

Don't put words in Dmac's mouth as he's not around to correct you. No one ever said tipping the bat back toward the pitcher as Dmac advocated was a problem.

So...you hear anything about how that face to face hitting lessons thing with Tom and GoCardinals is going? And yours and Richard's students? How's that going? Seriously dude, do something to help hitters. Go outside and try this stuff with real people. You will find reality when you are responsible for helping real people get better in person on a regular basis. Puts all the long winded fantastic early batspeed and the like theories to the test. Steve, Scott, BM and Jim, though not at all in lockstep on every detail have something in common. They really go out into the real world and really work with real hitters on real fields and produce real results in numbers. You don't need this ego biscuit thing on here and you don't need to be part of some others' personality disorders.

[wogdoggy]

Don't put words in Dmac's mouth as he's not around to correct you. No one ever said tipping the bat back toward the pitcher as Dmac advocated was a problem.

ok...mark h whatever you say...the two theories are totally opposite,,donny spent a long time looking at pcr on niimans sight,,and he warned everybody that this was not a major league pattern including me...if you would just look at your own darned videos and have somebody throw you some smoke on the outside corner while you sit there with your dead hands trying to tilt and rotate into the ball u'd know too..

[wogdoggy]

Don't put words in Dmac's mouth as he's not around to correct you. No one ever said tipping the bat back toward the pitcher as Dmac advocated was a problem.

So...you hear anything about how that face to face hitting lessons thing with Tom and GoCardinals is going? And yours and Richard's students? How's that going? Seriously dude, do something to help hitters. Go outside and try this stuff with real people. You will find reality when you are responsible for helping real people get better in person on a regular basis. Puts all the long winded fantastic early batspeed and the like theories to the test.

mark h ,,just because somebody doesnt believe in your method doesnt put me in Richards camp..please..I never cared much for him when he was on your side...lets leave richard out of it...:bowdown:

[Mark H]

ok...mark h whatever you say...the two theories are totally opposite,,donny spent a long time looking at pcr on niimans sight,,and he warned everybody that this was not a major league pattern including me...if you would just look at your own darned videos and have somebody throw you some smoke on the outside corner while you sit there with your dead hands trying to tilt and rotate into the ball u'd know too..

I didn't say anything about Donny and would rather not. May he rest in peace.

Set your mind at ease, hitting the outside corner pitch is not a problem.

[wogdoggy]

I didn't say anything about Donny and would rather not. May he rest in peace.

Set your mind at ease, hitting the outside corner pitch is not a problem.

Donny was a true gentleman,always took the time with me in spite of me railing on him at times..

[Mark H]

mark h ,,just because somebody doesnt believe in your method doesnt put me in Richards camp..please..I never cared much for him when he was on your side...lets leave richard out of it...:bowdown:

I can certainly understand that sentiment, but, he's part and parcel of the theory. He's the early batspeed late adjustability guy and he and Tom are joined at the hip. I don't see how you leave him out but if you wish to explain where you think he's wrong I'd find that interesting.

[Mark H]

Donny was a true gentleman,always took the time with me in spite of me railing on him at times..

Yes, he was a nice guy. On the net and in person he seemed to be the same guy by all reports. Richard being a notable opposite.

[Drill]

Swing Coach, without getting to much into this, the ball is far off of the bat in every picture you posted of MLB players. They probably maintained connection for more than a couple of frame counts and then, at some point, their hands left connection. The trick then is where and how. Take a look at these videos. To me these say a lot more than those still after the ball has long left the bat.


http://i25.tinypic.com/2k51s9.gif

http://i30.tinypic.com/1znyhqo.gif

http://i27.tinypic.com/35mjvno.gif

Also, Coach, a couple of the pictures you posted are from RVP. When you are able to stop the video feed frame by frame you should see exactly the position of the hands, arms etc. at contact.



question the top photo with the red line on the bat looks like a great swing. I always thought the swing started from the bottom up but looking at the hips and shoulders if you draw a line it looks like they go together. My question is, after the lower body turns is the upper body along for the ride or is the a mental cue upper body move??

I always thought if you start the upper body ahead of time you will open up to soon. Of course pull hitters do this. I was wounder what the upper body swing cue would be after the swing started.

My thoughts would be shift and trun than belt buckle to the pitcher. Anybody got any better power cue?

drill

[wogdoggy]

Yes, he was a nice guy. On the net and in person he seemed to be the same guy by all reports. Richard being a notable opposite.


something we BOTH can agree on,,,:highfive::rofl:

[Chris O'Leary]

Wo, its easy to understand how if you are in an athletic postion and tilted you can cover the outside part of the plate. If you keep your upper torso vertical, how do you physically cover the outside corner?

With the "Taking a dump in the woods" posture adjustment or the back knee hinge.

Oh wait, not pros actually do that.

They ALL tilt.

[Slapper23]

Wog, I applaud you on your independence of thought. I know what you're referring to in regard to Donny and Dmac, and I agree. And part of the reason why they both spent a lof of time at HI.com. I am not saying you cannot be sucessful with EH material, especially in fastpitch, but I spent a lot of time with it and it wasn't for me. Getting better results once again using a combination of Epstein, Yeager and HI.com teaching material. Go with what you think best, but I advise putting in the time to know the differences...strengths and weaknesses.

Mike

[wogdoggy]

With the "Taking a dump in the woods" posture adjustment or the back knee hinge.

Oh wait, not pros actually do that.

They ALL tilt.

the body tilts after the hands move to the ball..the hands set tilt...you dont set tilt and adjust tilt accordingly ..your hands take care of that..

[wogdoggy]

Wog, I applaud you on your independence of thought. I know what you're referring to in regard to Donny and Dmac, and I agree. And part of the reason why they both spent a lof of time at HI.com. I am not saying you cannot be sucessful with EH material, especially in fastpitch, but I spent a lot of time with it and it wasn't for me. Getting better results once again using a combination of Epstein, Yeager and HI.com teaching material. Go with what you think best, but I advise putting in the time to know the differences...strengths and weaknesses.

Mike

I have been working on coiling tipping and "going" with my younger son...the key for HIM is once you tip dont stop..he is hitting more line drives and shots he is not freezing on outside pitches and seems to be more confident..we do donnys tee drill with the inside seem to right field..he has had more solid hits to right center than ever before.. now his weak spot is high heat,,and getting him to lay off that eye candy.


SLAPPER SAID
but I advise putting in the time to know the differences...strengths and weaknesses.

OR LIVE THEM and CORRECT them.

[jbooth]

there is no early batspeed? really? i'll tell u what john get in your tilted position and hold on to the bat let someone pitch you outside and watch how your body will automatically freezes up because it knows it cant build enuf batspeed to do anything with that pitch..no running start and the outside pitch becomes very very hard to hit..

glad you guys all know more than rick down..stall tall eyes level


the you sound like richard really really hurts though although i hear at another board that john and richard may be the same person.....now thats gotta hurt...lol...just kiddin john

My first name is Jim, not John. I've already explained how there is no early batspeed, I'm not going through it again.

I never said not to tip and rip, or get a running start, but neither of those has much of an effect on the batspeed at contact. That is just pre-launch, set the plane movement, and it has nothing to do with being able to hit the outside pitch.

[jbooth]

but looking at the hips and shoulders if you draw a line it looks like they go together.

It doesn't look that way to me.

My thoughts would be shift and trun the belt buckle to the pitcher. Anybody got any better power cue?

The shift and turn is almost simultaneous. The turn should be in progress before the front foot is fully weighted.

[Steve Englishbey]

" ok...mark h whatever you say...the two theories are totally opposite,,donny spent a long time looking at pcr on niimans sight,,and he warned everybody that this was not a major league pattern including me...if you would just look at your own darned videos and have somebody throw you some smoke on the outside corner while you sit there with your dead hands trying to tilt and rotate into the ball u'd know too."


The following was written by Paul Nyman on his public forum:

" What is PCR(W)??



Concepts that I have developed here at SETPRO such as scapula loading, pelvic loading, beach ball, bow-flex-bow to name a few have always caused many people to have "semantic angina". And this semantic angina is caused by everything from total ignorance of what I'm trying to say to those who think they know what I'm trying to say but really don't yet will tell you how wrong I am or how much they do know about what they don't understand. Which include many, who for various reasons mostly are associated with ego and arrogance refuse to try to understand.

PCR (and again we must remember that it were talking about SETPRO's instructionlas, it's really PCRW) which stands for Posture-Connection-Rotation-Whip, is being bandied about by many people. Yet it appears that few really understand what PCR(W) really is.

What is PCRW?

If you read/viewed these forums for any length of time, you know the answer. For those who have not read/viewed these forums, I suggest you do so as what follows is just a brief summary of where PCRW "came from".

Simplicity of the swing comes from understanding that a high-level swing is nothing more than making sure that the mass of the bat (sweet spot) travels in a plane of rotation parallel to a plane that is “scribed out” by a rod or stick passing through both shoulders extending in the same direction as would be the bat passing over home plate.

A number of people (Internet "personalities") have attempted to offer their "own" definitions or should I say interpretations of what this means i.e. finding the rotational plane of the body with the bat. The important concept here is that what might be termed the "swing plane" is driven by rotation of the shoulders. And that in a high-level swing the sweet spot of the bat will "find" that plane of rotation simply because of the physics (biomechanics) of a high-level swing.

The reason why posture so important is because problem such as bat drag (top hand elbow getting significantly ahead of the top hand) and disconnection (what many would term extension, but extension that is caused by the hands attempting to guide the bat) which occur at the beginning and end of the swing are a result of failure of the bat to match the plane of rotation of the shoulders to the plane of the swing.

Bat drag and disconnection are also caused by incorrect Posture i.e. position of the spine with respect to the location of the pitch as it crosses home plate. Problem such as dropping of the hands (hitch), bat lag (moving bat by means other than rotation of the shoulders), bat drag and casting (disconnection) are created and or aggravated by poor starting posture.

And by poor starting posture I mean the position of the spine primarily the position of the spine between the shoulder blades with respect to not only the path of the ball but also the path of the bat throughout the swing.

Once we have establish posture, we then need to learn how to rotate. Because rotation is how the bat gets to the ball. The "something" that happens between posture and rotation all what I call/term connection.

Connection is what high-level players have/achieve when they begin rotation of the upper body. Most players have what might be termed "slippage" between the rotation of their upper body and the "connection" to the handle of the bat. This slippage results in problem such as "bat drag" and "bat lag".

When it comes to Rotation it's been my experience that most young players do not know how to rotate efficiently and effectively. And a significant number do not know how to rotate at all (don't know how to make their muscles develop rotation). the reason they don't rotate effectively is not because they lack muscular strength as some would like you to believe but rather is because they simply do not know how to rotate.

They don't know how because they learn how to swing using their hands to move the bat as opposed to understanding how to use their body to move the bat. The importance of rotation cannot be understated. Rotation begets both bat speed (power) and swing quickness. Swing quickness is initiated by rotation.
Once we have learned how to rotate we must maintain connection between our rotation and the bat. Much of this problem is solved if we have correct posture.

Once we have learned how to rotate AND maintain connection, we then learn how to have what some might term as “quick wrists”. As an aside there is no such thing as quick wrists.

Or should I say that what most people “see” as quick wrists is not achieved by the wrists. Quick wrists are achieved by rotational transfer of momentum otherwise known as the "whip effect".

And what is also viewed as bat quickness and was certain degree bat speed is achieved by this whip effect also known as creating the “fish hook”. The fish hook is achieved primarily by the actions of the shoulders and to a lesser degree the arms and wrists."



As regards a slightly more detailed description of the actions of the wrists ,here is a quote from "Just the Facts " that was written on this website not too long ago:


" "The wrists play an important role in a high level swing. The wrists link the rotational momentum of the torso which is maintained through the arms to the bat.

In a swing where the batter is not trying to make significant adjustments i.e. has been fooled, the wrists simply act as a binary switch. Either they are in a holding (cocked) state where they exert a small amount of tension to resist the unloading of the bat.

Or they are in "freewheeling" (uncocked) state allowing the interaction of the bat with the rotational momentum generated by the body. Attempts to use the wrists in any other mode i.e. to actually try to snap the wrists, or to consciously try to use the wrists to move the bat will decrease bat speed and swing quickness. This is simply a fact of physics life i.e. the transfer and/or loss of momentum which occurs instantaneously. [/b]

For those who really care, care as defined by wanting to better understand what it takes to more effectively swing the bat, the physics of the baseball swing is no different than the physics of the golf swing.

And there are a number of research articles chronicling the physics of the golf swing. All of these simulations model the golf swing as a compound pendulum. A typical model in this discussion can be found here:



As regards the latter statement ,it has ALWAYS been true that one of the "overarching principles " that underlies much of what Paul Nyman has described as a "high level swing" has to do with momentum and momentum transfer.

And it has ALWAYS been true that one of the primary models that Paul Nyman has used to better understand momentum /momentum transfer process that elite hitters are creating ,has been that of the compund pendulum.[Also similar to this ---which he has referred to numerous times---would be Robert Adair's "rock on a rope analogy."]

So I would say that as regards this quote from above:

...."...the two theories are totally opposite,,donny spent a long time looking at pcr on niimans sight,,and he warned everybody that this was not a major league pattern...."

I would say that to the extent that one does NOT think that elite hitters conform to the above descriptions as described here above by PauL Nyman,then to that extent would you be arguing something "opposite "of the above.

Meaning that "opposite " would be along the following lines:

1] You do not believe that elite hitters are very effectively linking bat to body.In other words you think the "opposite" ,ie you would think that ELITE players "have what might be termed "slippage" between the rotation of their upper body and the "connection" to the handle of the bat. This slippage results in problem such as "bat drag" and "bat lag"."

2]You believe that elite hitters create a posture by touchdown to footplant OTHER THAN that which which allows for "the bat to match the plane of rotation of the shoulders to the plane of the swing. ".

3]You believe something "opposite" of the notion that " The importance of rotation cannot be understated. Rotation begets both bat speed (power) and swing quickness. Swing quickness is initiated by rotation. "


4] In terms of using a basic model to describe to try to describe and explain an elite level swing ,you would use a model "opposite " the double pendulum model .


I would only add here that both Jim Booth and Boardmember --in putting up video of elite hitters and describing some of the basic components that can be readily seen in these elite hitters -----are not showing and describing things "opposite " of Paul Nyman's comments above.

They are doing a very good job of showing and explaining some of the basic "underlying realities " that Paul Nyman began to explain some eight or so years ago in trying to explain the difference between "cues and reality",ie the differences between what we think we are doing as hitters ,as opposed to what is actually happening in terms of the physics /biomechanics that really underlies the movement of elite hitters.

steve

[jima]

The tipping/ripping...running start stuff reminds me of the forward press in golf that is used to help timing and to overcome inertia. Applied to the baseball swing, it seems we are just talking about a loading mechanism...there can be many ways to load depending on personal choice. Its a very difficult to follow how tipping the bat would increase bat speed or the ability to hit the outside pitch. I will be paying attention to anyone who can explain why it works and can show me a vid of it working. To suggest, as Tom has, that it is part of the mlb pattern seems to be a stretch for me at this point.

[jbooth]

the body tilts after the hands move to the ball..the hands set tilt...you dont set tilt and adjust tilt accordingly ..your hands take care of that..

That's complete nonsense. I showed you over a dozen stills and motion videos that show that that isn't true.

[tom.guerry]

Steve-

In the PCR pattern you and your mentor Nyman describe, when you try to suppress/minimize/eliminate "slippage", you are teaching a sequence that prevents the "stretch and fire" of the MLB pattern.

The more you practice this type of rotation, the more you will ingrain a pattern incompatible with the MLB stretch and fire pattern.

You will not work really hard and eventually get additional "degrees of freedom" and then resemble an MLB swing, no matter what sort of environment you set up, ecologically speaking, if the PCR guidelines are followed.

PCR/middle out "standard" adjust by bend at waist/handpath radius swing is NOT what ANY successful MLB hitter does, nor is it on this path.

The perfect swing is about the adjustment you make, and no MLB hitters does this by bending over and sticking there butt out and changing the bend at waist the way Nyman desxcribes "the only 2 adjustments you want to make".

NYman is now admitting that "holding the hinge angle" involves torque.

How about you ?

[Steve Englishbey]

" The tipping/ripping...running start stuff reminds me of the forward press in golf that is used to help timing and to overcome inertia. Applied to the baseball swing, it seems we are just talking about a loading mechanism...there can be many ways to load depending on personal choice. Its a very difficult to follow how tipping the bat would increase bat speed or the ability to hit the outside pitch."

I agree.And have said as much many times and in many ways .

For example ,EVEN as regards PRACTICING what I have referred to as the "static model" of learning how to "tilt and turn "-----something which is very much like the "Avatar " model that Paul Nyman created of Pujois some time back to shed some light on some of the BASIC components of a good swing.

And it is a model which serves as a VERY BASIC STARTING POINT for many hitters that I work with .Hitters which suffer the all too typical problems of things like bat drag,hip slide, disconnection ,inability to rotate the hips/trunk effectively, use of their arms as the primary energy source to get the bat around .

As regards PRACTICING with this BASIC set-up, here is a typical comment about doing this ----and about how to THINK about doing this when practicing:


" Larry if you go back to the "static model" demo, you will hear me saying that even in this very simple set-up that there is a loading process involved in terms of using this model in a live context .

I show this by imaging a pitch about to happen ,and I load ---mentally and physically get ready [thus the term "psycho -physical"] by flexing at the hips [which slightly tilts me over about 4 inches ] and by slightly lifting /stretching the arms /shoulders[ I am stretching and tightening these muscles a few inches.

Thus I am "getting ready before I get ready", meaning I am "anticipating " that I am about to have to react to a ball pitched somewhere in or close to the strike zone .

I am "getting ready " by slightly loading ,and mentally I am starting to "shut down all thoughts" extraneous to the thought and awareness involved in a kind of "here we go---something is about happen --gotta get really ready to react quickly " kind of physical and emotional focus and awareness."

So the point here is that even though you are PRACTICING in a relatively simple manner in terms of loading ,you SHOULD BE thinking and acting in ways which indicate you are "anticipating " the action that is about to happen."

Or as I have said as a kind of simple cue in this regard:

"You gotta get ready before you get ready." Simply put ,this means you have to engage ---mentally and physically---BEFORE the pitch is released ,in ways which helps you to unload the swing MORE EFFECTIVELY.

And you SHOULD be engaging in this manner ,when you are PRACTICING this relatively simple static set-up and unload.

[And I would hasten to add here ,that not all pre-unloading movement is "created equally" .Meaning that what I see MANY non-elite hitters doing in terms of what they consider to be loading ,is in fact,movement which is NOT very effective ,ie does NOT help them unload the bathead very effectively .]

As regards LEARNING how to create effective anticipatory actions in a live context ,the following are some typical comments that I have written:





"In terms of actual game situations ----and applying this "anticipatory loading " or "get ready before you get ready I would say this :

As to EXACTLY when this has to happen ---well that is not anything you can externally impose on a hitter.

Meaning that ,though your list above may be correct in terms of the sequencing and movement between the hitter and pitcher,its a kind of external "contrivance " if you will .

"Contrivance " meaning that the hitter cannot --and should not-- experience the process in this manner.

This question came up once on HItting -Mech.org [I think it was a college hitter asking "when should I start the loading ?"]

It prompted me to ask my son [ who was 17 ] "When do you start your swing?"

And he responded in a somewhat annoyed tone ,"when I feel like it ."

Indeed .

In what amounts to a purely trial and error process,you "figure out" what to do and when to do it ,in a manner such that you can and turn quickly ---neither being too late or too early .

This process is ongoing and constant ,and can and will be "revised " in between pitches ,or against different pitchers [because each pitcher will be slightly different in terms of their rhythym /tempo ,speeds,etcc.,],or as you change certain aspects of your loading -unloading characteristics [those characteristics could be mechanical or physiological ,eg., you become stronger,or more coordinated ,and this will allow you to wait longer ].

Bottom line is that to become a better "hitter" ---as distinct from knowing how to swing well---you have to create an "anticipatory loading " process .And this process is at once physical and pyschological.

And many times you will only learn the value and necessity of this process ,by negative reinforcement .

Meaning that in order to become aware of the need to "get ready before you get ready" ,you will have to have it "brought to your attention."

Better competition ---facing faster ,better pitching ,is something that will typically "get your attention".

And I would add here some similar thoughts as regards elite hitters and how and why they create the movements they do prior to unloading the swing by citing some recent comments from Paul Nyman -----comments that are very similar to much of what I have stated above:

[QUOTE] "Based on a reading I know and have observed regarding hitters, hitters who start the bat more vertical or even pointing toward the pitcher change direction for one simple reason, TO GET THE BAT ON PLANE SO THAT THEY CAN SWING.

If you look at clips of most hitters there is a delay between the time that they move the bat from a more vertical/forward position to a flatter get on plane position. if it's a fastball there is less delay if it's enough speed pitch there is potentially more delay.

I suspect the reason why hitters do this is that they feel they are more in sync with the pitcher if they get this prelaunch movement. It also can invigorate the nervous system not from the standpoint of generating stretch reflex but simply from creating activity in the nervous system along the lines of anticipation.

Stated differently the fastest that a human can react to the stimulus is .1 seconds. Yet hitters are able to create timing that is in the range of +-.010 seconds. How do they do this it's not about reaction it's about anticipation.

There are many high-level hitters who have virtually no "running start" as part of their swing. And they do very well.

From a physics/mechanics perspective, it is only forces that are in the swing plane that result in an optimal bat speed and swing quickness.

Movements that are not within the swing plane require forces that are not within the swing plane potentially be great the ability to create swing efficiency.

The bottom line is that what most people attribute actions such as Tip and rip and running start to are not actions that are mechanically efficient in terms the physics of the swing.

What they do do is potentially contribute to the nervous system's ability to create greater force simply through stimulating the nervous system and creating a more effective timing capability i.e. anticipation versus reaction


And I would emphasize here that this statement :

"There are many high-level hitters who have virtually no "running start" as part of their swing. And they do very well "

is very much an empircally true statement.


Meaning of course that MOST elite hitters do NOT create the kinds of "pre launch " movements like a Richie Allen ,or Raphael Batista ,or Ted Williams .

It is simply not the case that in order to create a very effective swing that one has to create relatively large pre-launch movements .

What DOES have to happen in terms of loading is much more along the lines of creating anticpatory actions that helps to very effectively "rotate into footplant" .And very effectively link the bat to the rotational plane of the shoulders by footplant .

And it is really these loading -unloading characteristics which underlies essentially all elite hitters in terms of the very effective movement that they create .

steve

[jbooth]

Meaning of course, that MOST elite hitters do NOT create the kinds of "pre-launch" movements like a Richie Allen, or Raphael Batista, or Ted Williams.

It is simply not the ca