Best managers outside the Hall of Fame

[leecemark]

--In the Surburbs of Cooperstown project we are nearly through the process of drafting the best 200 players eligible for, but not in, the Hall of Fame. We will be drafting manager for those 10 teams as well. If you have any suggestions for best non-Hall of Fame managers we'd like to hear them.

[leecemark]

--A few suggestions to get the ball rolling; Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Billy Martin, Charlie Grimm, Davey Johnson, George Stallings, Pat Moran and Danny Murtaugh. We need 10 names and, frankly, I can't think of 10 who belong in the discussion - and only 2 I actually support.

[soberdennis]

Williams is going in this year. And it is about time.So is Billy Southworth, whose induction is overdue.
I assume you are talking about retired managers since we are talking HOF. Otherwise, I might suggest Torre, Pinella, Leyland, Cox, and LaRussa, all of whom should eventually get in except for maybe Lou. But I think an argument can be made for him too.
I also assume you are disallowing managers who are in as players. Otherwise, you can include Berra, Schoendienst, and Cochrane.
Fred Haney is one you might want to include. Ralph Houk is another.

[Aqua]

Gene Mauch? Bobby Valentine, especially if you add his Japanese work -- though he's still active there of course.

You're right...there's not a lot of deserving managers outside the Hall.

[Freakshow]

--A few suggestions to get the ball rolling; Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Billy Martin, Charlie Grimm, Davey Johnson, George Stallings, Pat Moran and Danny Murtaugh. We need 10 names and, frankly, I can't think of 10 who belong in the discussion - and only 2 I actually support.
Some other possibilities:

Steve O'Neill
Tom Kelly
Jim Mutrie
Chuck Dressen
Felipe Alou

Also, to be clear on eligibility, these are the rules:

RULES FOR ELECTION OF MANAGERS AND UMPIRES

6. Eligible Candidates:


A. Eligible candidates must be selected from Baseball Managers and Umpires who have been retired from organized Baseball as Managers or Umpires for at least five (5) years prior to the election. If the candidate is 65 years old at the time of retirement, the waiting period is reduced to six (6) months. If the candidate reaches the age of 65 during the five-year waiting period, the candidate becomes eligible six months after the candidate's 65th birthday.

B. Those whose careers entailed involvement as both manager or umpire, and another category (managers/executives/umpires/players) will be considered for their overall contribution to the game of Baseball; however, the specific category in which these individuals shall be considered will be determined by the role in which they were most prominent. In those instances when a candidate is prominent as both a player and as a manager, executive or umpire, the BBWAA-appointed Historical Overview Committee shall determine that individual's candidacy as a player (Players Ballot), as a manager or as an umpire (Managers/Umpires Ballot) or as an executive/pioneer (Executive/Pioneer Ballot). Candidates may only appear on one ballot per election. Those designated as players must fulfill the requirements of 6 (A).

C. Any person designated by the Office of the Commissioner of Major League Baseball as ineligible shall not be an eligible candidate.

[leecemark]

Williams is going in this year. And it is about time.So is Billy Southworth, whose induction is overdue.
I assume you are talking about retired managers since we are talking HOF. Otherwise, I might suggest Torre, Pinella, Leyland, Cox, and LaRussa, all of whom should eventually get in except for maybe Lou. But I think an argument can be made for him too.
I also assume you are disallowing managers who are in as players. Otherwise, you can include Berra, Schoendienst, and Cochrane.
Fred Haney is one you might want to include. Ralph Houk is another.

--I definately support Torre and Cox, but they are not eligible. Leyland and Pinellla and I suppose LaRussa (although I don't much care for the man or his style of managing) are also strong candidates. You can only make the Hall once so players don't have a second eligibility as managers.

[jalbright]

Among Negro Leaguers, there's C. I. Taylor (a horrible oversight by the Negro Leagues committee, IMHO), Vic Harris, and Frank Warfield. Taylor is in the BBF HOF but not Cooperstown per a check of Cooperstown's website. You can learn more about those three starting at posts 61-63 on this page of the Albright's Musings thread: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=32451&page=3

[jalbright]

For my pick, it'll be C. I. Taylor.

[Bill Burgess]

Here are some candidates from my Greatest Managers ballot, with the ineligible ones removed. Don't know if Anson, Chance, Clarke are ineligible since they are already enshrined as players. If so, I'll delete them.

4. Billy Martin - 1969, 1971-83, '85, '88 - traveling salesman, won wherever he went. Famed as Yank skipper, feuds with Steinbrenner.

7. Whitey Herzog - KC (1975-79), Cardinals (1980-90). Everywhere he went, he won. Like B. Martin.

23. George Stallings - Braves (1913-20), Famed for '14 win.

24. Kid Gleason - White Sox (1919-23). Went 1, 2 with the Black Sox in '19-20. Then 7, 5, 7 with the carcass of the White Sox. He was real brains behind White Sox win in '17. Rowlings was just for show.

25. Danny Murtaugh - Pirates (1957-64, '67, '70-71, '73-76. Won 2 pennants and 2 Divisions. But also came in 4th or lower 7 times.

26. Charlie Grimm - Cubs (1932-38, '44-49, '60), Braves (1952-56). After long 1B career, when with Cubs initially, ran off 2, 3, 3, 1, 2, 2, 3. Later with Braves ran off 2, 3, 2.

29. Jimmy Dykes - White Sox (1934-46), traveling salesman after that. Came in 3rd or above only 3 times in all his yrs.

[leecemark]

Bill, 7 of those guys are already in the Hall of Fame and a couple more are still active. Only Kid Gleason and Jimy Dykes from your list are eligible and not previously mentioned. Gleason I suppose is a fringely candidate, although managing the Black Sox is kind of a mixed blessing (at best) to have on your resume - and that was the "highlight" of his managerial career. Jimmy Dykes did manage a long time, but has very little to show for it. Maybe he just never had the horses, but you've got to win something to get alook.

[jalbright]

Other than the Negro Leaguers and active guys, the inclusion of Southworth and Williams leaves few worthy MLB choices IMO. I can see arguments for Mauch, Dressen, Richards, and Billy Martin, but that's about it. I like C I Taylor and Vic Harris, and might go for Warfield, but if you don't like Billy Martin's combative style, you'd hate Warfield. He could keep a team together for a few years, unlike Billy, but he was that kind of guy. I'd vote for Billy Martin, too, if that matters to anyone.

[Paul Wendt]

Here are some candidates from my Greatest Managers ballot, with the ineligible ones removed. Don't know if Anson, Chance, Clarke are ineligible since they are already enshrined as players. If so, I'll delete them.

They are ineligible because enshrined as players.
Anderson, Williams, Selee, and Southworth have been elected as managers.

For the purpose of the neighboring thread, Kid Gleason is ineligible because someone drafted him as a player. But he belongs in this thread.

Whitey Herzog is the most frequently mentioned in my experience, if I discount those who mention Gene Mauch with a curse.

Managers at baseball-reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/) with four major league career leader boards. Three of the categories favor the 162-game season.

[jalbright]

Yeah, I missed Herzog. Shame on me.

[RuthMayBond]

In order
Bobby Valentine
Billy Martin
Ralph Houk
Whitey Herzog
Dick Howser
Dave Garcia

[Chickazoola]

Maury Wills

[Paul Wendt]

Pat Moran

Was it part of Moran's job in Philly or Cinci to recruit and trade players?

From reading newspaper coverage when George Stallings was in Detroit and New York, I know that it was part of his job in the aughts and I have supposed that it remained part of his job in Boston (1914 miracle).

Certainly it remained McGraw's job throughout his career.

I suppose Clark Griffith (Was AL), Charlie Comiskey (Chi AL) held the main responsibility for building their teams.

Does anyone know of anyone's effort to credit some managers and not others with the roster development role, the "general manager" in Whitey Herzog's time?

Is there any sound generalization today regarding responsibility of the general manager, if any, and the director of baseball operations, if any?

[Paul Wendt]

Most of the top 30 in each of the three "positive" categories are already in the Hall of Fame or they are still active.
Manager Wins, 1281 or more (30)

12) Gene Mauch 1902
14) Ralph Houk 1619
23) Jimmie Dykes 1406
25) Chuck Tanner 1352
28) Charlie Grimm 1287
30) Whitey Herzog 1281

Manager Win %, .540 or better (30)

2) Jim Mutrie .611
13) Davey Johnson .564
14) Pat Moran .561
16) Steve O'Neill .559
18) Patsy Tebeau .555
21) Billy Martin .553
22) Charlie Grimm .547
27) Fielder Jones .540
27) Danny Murtaugh .540

Manager Wins Over .500, 160 or more (30)

19) Davey Johnson 260
20) Billy Martin 240
21) Jim Mutrie 239
22) Charlie Grimm 220
23) Steve O'Neill 219
27) Danny Murtaugh 165
28) Pat Moran 162

The second list includes the same names as the third one plus Tebeau and Jones.
The first list is distinct except for Jolly Cholly who is on all three.

[Paul Wendt]

I suppose Clark Griffith (Was AL), Charlie Comiskey (Chi AL) held the main responsibility for building their teams.

Maybe not.
In the Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers (1997), BJ observes (p118):
Evolution of the Role of the Manager. In the first fifty years of major league baseball the manager was almost entirely responsible for the personnel on his roster. In the 1920s and 1930s, the responsibility for finding and developing young players shifted to the front office, but until about 1940, making trades remained a function of the manager. [McGraw's successor from mid-1932] Bill Terry made his own trades; Joe Cronin [Boston from 1935] made his own deals unless the deal involved a sizable hunk of Tom Yawkey's money. Even Frankie Frisch, working with Branch Rickey in St. Louis [from mid-1933], had latitude to get the players he wanted and get rid of those he didn't.

About 1940, general managers began to assume responsibility for making trades. Larry MacPhail was probably the first general manager to take full responsibility for the roster, effectively telling the manager [Grimes or Durocher in Brooklyn?] to get used to the idea or look for another job.

This doesn't finger Griffith or Comiskey but "even Frankie Frisch" implies universal intention.

The quotation is from the 1940s chapter. Perhaps in earlier chapters there is more on the subject.

[leecemark]

--I think the "even Frankie Frisch" line has more to do with who his GM was than to imply "hey if Frisch had that authority than they all must have". Most of us would assume that if a team had Branch Rickey as their GM he would have control of the roster. At this point in time he was acting more their farm director though (in fact establishing the first real modern farm system - and the deepest of all time).
--For most teams the early GM's were more business managers than baseball men and on baseball decisions rightly defered to the manager. I think your original guess about actual baseball men running/owning teams in the case of Griffith and Commisky was correct though. They most likley had the final say on pretty much everything.

[Brad Harris]

No love for Cito Gaston or Paul Richards?

[KCGHOST]

Why don't we do the stand-up thing and not admit any more managers to the HoFer??

[Paul Wendt]

Among Negro Leaguers, there's C. I. Taylor (a horrible oversight by the Negro Leagues committee, IMHO), Vic Harris, and Frank Warfield. Taylor is in the BBF HOF but not Cooperstown per a check of Cooperstown's website. You can learn more about those three starting at posts 61-63 on this page of the Albright's Musings thread: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=32451&page=3

I was surprised that they did not honor Taylor along with Sol White, J.L. Wilkinson, and Cum Posey. Jim Riley's encyclopedia entry covers Taylor more as a manager of players, especially a teacher/developer, and less as a club organizer. But only more and less, not exclusively and nil. For a decade in Indianapolis, if not earlier, he was the head of an important club. Even if the Committee members were generally inclined to recognize executives and business managers rather than mere field managers there was a good case for Taylor.

What about Buck O'Neill as a manager?

[J W]

Manager Wins Over .500, 160 or more (30)

19) Davey Johnson 260
20) Billy Martin 240
21) Jim Mutrie 239
22) Charlie Grimm 220
23) Steve O'Neill 219
27) Danny Murtaugh 165
28) Pat Moran 162

This I think is the most important stat for managers because it incorporates both success and longevity... and I've used it before.

Even though I'd take Whitey Herzog first, Davey Johnson is a name people should not overlook and I hope he makes it into the ten drafted. This list also helps Martin's case.

[stejay]

At the moment- Billy Martin, Davey Johnson aswellas others. Future= Cox, LaRussa, hopefully Girardi:) and one word... the living legend.....

TORRE!

[RuthMayBond]

and one word... the living legend.....

TORRE!We'll see how legendary he is when his budget is under $200 million

[Paul Wendt]

Bill James (Managers, p163) on Charlie Grimm
One of the biggest surprises to me, when I ranked the managers, was how high up on the lists Charalie Grimm was. My impression of Grimm, to be honest, was that he was a well-liked guy who hung around and managed a long time, like Jimmy Dykes or Chuck Tanner, but that was about as much as you could say for him.

When you look carefully at his record, though, he ranks about even with Al Lopez, Whitey Herzog, Tony LaRussa, Frank Chance, those kind of guys. Not the ten greatest managers in history, but the class right behind them.
. . . [skip most of the one-page article]
. . .
I can't tell you, in all honesty, what made Grimm a successful manager. I suspect that the two key elements of his managerial style were
a) common sense, and
b) a positive outlook.

[jjpm74]

Even though I'd take Whitey Herzog first, Davey Johnson is a name people should not overlook and I hope he makes it into the ten drafted. This list also helps Martin's case.

Since Martin and Herzog have already been drafted, I tend to agree. Johnson is one of the three inactive managers eligible for this I'd support as a HOFer. Dick Howser also comes close. He had a career cut short by an untimely death, but in 8 seasons as a manager, won 2 WS, finish in 1st place 5 times and never finished worse than 3rd (and that in a season where he only managed the first half).

Outside of them, Buck O'Neill is a solid choice, though more an innovator than manager specifically.

Gene Mauch, Pat Moran, Steve O'Neill, Danny Murtagh, Ralph Houk, Chuck Tanner, Charlie Grimm are decent choices, though most/all of them are not guys I'd list among best outside of Cooperstown.

For a 19th century guy, Jim Mutrie coached teams to 3 1st place finishes.

[jjpm74]

We'll see how legendary he is when his budget is under $200 million

Either way, he was part of a dynasty. Usually guys like him make it based on that alone.

[RuthMayBond]

For a 19th century guy, Jim Mutrie coached teams to 3 1st place finishes.The Joe McCarthy syndrome :rolleyes:

[RuthMayBond]

Either way, he was part of a dynasty.So was Charlie Silvera

[jjpm74]

For the purpose of the neighboring thread, Kid Gleason is ineligible because someone drafted him as a player. But he belongs in this thread.


Why? Outside of being the manager of the ill fated 1919 Black Socks, be had a pretty uneventful and short career as a manager.

[jjpm74]

So was Charlie Silvera

You're comparing the manager of a baseball team to a back up bench player :confused:

[RuthMayBond]

You're comparing the manager of a baseball team to a back up bench player :confused:and you're effectively comparing a manager with a regular starting player :shrug:

[jjpm74]

and you're effectively comparing a manager with a regular starting player :shrug:

I'm comparing a manager to other managers. Let me clarify: every manager that's been a part of a franchise along the lines of the 1996-2001 is in Cooperstown.

I personally don't have an opinion on how effective a manager Torre is. As a Yankees fan, I liked that he stayed as long as he did and thought he did a good job keeping all the egos in the clubhouse in check, but he didn't do much as a manager before coming to the Yankees.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm comparing a manager to other managers. Let me clarify: every manager that's been a part of a franchise along the lines of the 1996-2001 is in Cooperstown.Of course it's not like they're falling out of trees

<I personally don't have an opinion on how effective a manager Torre is. As a Yankees fan, I liked that he stayed as long as he did and thought he did a good job keeping all the egos in the clubhouse in check, but he didn't do much as a manager before coming to the Yankees.>

He actually deserves the accolades (unlike McCarthy et al)

[jjpm74]

Of course it's not like they're falling out of trees

<I personally don't have an opinion on how effective a manager Torre is. As a Yankees fan, I liked that he stayed as long as he did and thought he did a good job keeping all the egos in the clubhouse in check, but he didn't do much as a manager before coming to the Yankees.>

He actually deserves the accolades (unlike McCarthy et al)

I tend to agree with you that guys like McCarthy and Stengel are overrated as managers.

[J W]

Wins over 500

McCarthy (2) - 792
.
.
.
Torre (17) - 297
.
.
.
Stengel (68) - 63

Point is, whether with the Cubs, Yankees or Red Sox, McCarthy NEVER HAD A LOSING SEASON. You can speculate but there is no concrete proof he was overrated as a manager. Torre has evidence; Stengel has evidence.

It's the same problem with Phil Jackson. I've always wanted to find something on the guy to shoot him down, but there's nothing there. Even without Michael Jordan... even with Kobe Bryant & nothing else... he's never coached a losing team.

And yes, I believe Torre belongs in the HOF. As a player alone :laugh but also as a manager.

[RuthMayBond]

Wins over 500

McCarthy (2) - 792
.
.
.
Torre (17) - 297
.
.
.
Stengel (68) - 63

Point is, whether with the Cubs, Yankees or Red Sox, McCarthy NEVER HAD A LOSING SEASON. You can speculate but there is no concrete proof he was overrated as a manager.If you compare how a team should have done (pythagorean) based on their runs scored/ runs allowed (which is a pretty good rule of thumb) compared to their actual record, McCarthy fares poorly. Sometimes guys get handed all the talent.

<Torre has evidence; >

But not using the above method. We'll wait for your evidence

<It's the same problem with Phil Jackson. I've always wanted to find something on the guy to shoot him down, but there's nothing there. Even without Michael Jordan... even with Kobe Bryant & nothing else... he's never coached a losing team.>

See end of first comment

[J W]

...but the Pythagorean method doesn't account for how much of the players' performances were helped by coaching, correct? Doesn't it simply measure the "luck" element in statistical deviation from how the team should have done? If a player has 150 base hits in a season, how many of those hits can be attributed to the manager putting the player in a position that works for him... or hiring the right batting coach for the player so that he can have a better approach at the plate? Or perhaps more importantly, manage the player's personality and motivate him?

Granted, "luck" has something to do with coaching too, and I'm a firm believer in the "preparation & opportunity" bit, so there is some evidence there, I'll take that back.

I mean concerning Torre, the evidence is he did not do well with the Mets and only so-so with the Cardinals. Stengel had precisely one winning season out of thirteen outside of the Yankees organization (expansion team or not). McCarthy coached outside of New York and still won. To me, I don't see how you can separate the manager from his teams' success... they're linked at the hip. Especially if it occured in several places.

[Paul Wendt]

If you compare how a team should have done (pythagorean) based on their runs scored/ runs allowed (which is a pretty good rule of thumb) compared to their actual record, McCarthy fares poorly. Sometimes guys get handed all the talent.

Regarding a different measure of win expectation Bill James takes this on in the Managers book. The point may pertain equally to the pythagorean measure. Pythagoras charges McCarthy with -5 wins in 1939, W-L only 106-45 when it should have been 111-40. (In the other system it seems to be -10 or -11 for underperforming 116 or 117 wins.)
According to James runs do not have the expected value for teams with extreme run records and W-L records --such as these W-L records in the .700s.

For James this point is related to a thorough revision in favor of McCarthy, mainly in the 1930s chapter where McCarthy is the featured "Manager in a Box" (p91-98). But this point is at pages 146-47.

[RuthMayBond]

...but the Pythagorean method doesn't account for how much of the players' performances were helped by coaching, correct? Doesn't it simply measure the "luck" element in statistical deviation from how the team should have done? If a player has 150 base hits in a season, how many of those hits can be attributed to the manager putting the player in a position that works for him... or hiring the right batting coach for the player so that he can have a better approach at the plate? Or perhaps more important, manage the player's personality and motivate him?

Granted, "luck" has something to do with coaching too, and I'm a firm believer in the "preparation & opportunity" bit, so there is some evidence there, I'll take that back.And "luck" tends to even out over the long haul.

<I mean concerning Torre, the evidence is he did not do well with the Mets>

Did he have the horses?

<and only so-so with the Cardinals.>

After his first year, he finished lower than 3rd once out of 5. And you omit the Braves.

<Stengel had precisely one winning season out of thirteen outside of the Yankees organization (expansion team or not).>

We agree here

<McCarthy coached outside of New York and still won.>

Bosox wasn't exactly chopped liver & his first three Cub years weren't overwhelming

[J W]

Hey, I support Torre in the HOF as a player and as a manager. He's still top 20 in wins over .500 and has over 2000 for his career. And if he takes the Dodgers to the playoffs several times in "the most competetive division in baseball", he'll be entering that "top ten managers of all-time" discussion IMO.

Maybe I'm giving off the wrong vibe; I'm a big Torre fan. He's done light years better than Stengel away from the Yankees and I think he'll prove it in LA. BUT, if he tanks in LA, it'll look all the worse for him when rating him on the all-time list.

For reference, I believe Torre is the 2nd best manager outside the HOF behind Bobby Cox (and ahead of Tony "Pontius Pilate" LaRussa)

[RuthMayBond]

It's the same problem with Phil Jackson. I've always wanted to find something on the guy to shoot him down, but there's nothing there. Even without Michael Jordan... even with Kobe Bryant & nothing else... he's never coached a losing team.
Awards aren't perfect, but is it true that the "greatest coach ever" has a grand total of one Coach of the Year award?

[J W]

Haha, well I don't want to turn this into a basketball argument but I don't believe Jerry Sloan has any Coach of the Year Award and I think he's the greatest NBA coach never to win a title.

People don't want to give Jackson the award for the same reason they want to say he's overrated. "His job is easy; he's got the best players." So they go hand-in-hand.

[jjpm74]

So far, these are the managers who have been drafted in the SOC thread and the order in which they were drafted:

1. CI Taylor
2. Billy Martin
3. Whitey Herzog
4. Davey Johnson
5. Vic Harris

All solid choices with strong cases for Cooperstown. It'll be interesting to see how strong a case #s 6-10 have.

[leecemark]

--#6 will be Charley Grimm. Not only have I never thought Jolly Cholly was a Hall of Famer, but I never even considered him before. Looking at the eligible pool of managers of managers though he seems clearly the most qualified, at least amoung MLB managers.

[Paul Wendt]

1. CI Taylor
2. Billy Martin
3. Whitey Herzog
4. Davey Johnson
5. Vic Harris
6. Charlie Grimm
7. Frank Bancroft

[Freakshow]

1. CI Taylor
2. Billy Martin
3. Whitey Herzog
4. Davey Johnson
5. Vic Harris
6. Charlie Grimm
7. Frank Bancroft
8. Gene Mauch

[RuthMayBond]

If anyone wants to do a yearly Best Manager for each league, I'd be interested in comparing results

[stejay]

Considering what Torre had to work with, I would stretch out and say that he was maybe the greatest ever Yankees manager. Seeings that Huggins had the Babe and the Murderers row. McCarthy had the Babe, Joltin Joe, Gehrig. Stengel had DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Ford, Berra. Martin had Jackson, Catfish, Munson, Mattingly and others. Torre has only really had Jeter, Mo, Posada and O'Neill in the glory years, who don't compare really.

[jjpm74]

Here's the 10 who were drafted:

1. CI Taylor
2. Billy Martin
3. Whitey Herzog
4. Davey Johnson
5. Vic Harris
6. Charlie Grimm
7. Frank Bancroft
8. Gene Mauch
9. Danny Murtaugh
10. Buck O'Neil

[RuthMayBond]

Here's the 10 who were drafted:

6. Charlie Grimm
8. Gene Mauch
9. Danny Murtaugh
Wow, they put in these guys and missed Valentine, Houk, Howser . . . :dismay::disbelief::choke:

[leecemark]

--I had the "pleasue" of seeing Houk manage on an everyday basis for several years and came away distinctly unimpressed. His only success was inheriting a Yankee team that was already winning every year before he got the job (and then presiding over the collapse of a 4 decade long dynasty:eek:). Howser was a very good - or at least very successfull - manager, but didn't last long. I think the 10 years we expect of a player to be eligible is not too much to expect of a manager. I'd be interested in hearing why you think Valentine is a major oversight?

[RuthMayBond]

--I had the "pleasue" of seeing Houk manage on an everyday basis for several years and came away distinctly unimpressed. His only success was inheriting a Yankee team that was already winning every year before he got the jobNot in 1959

<(and then presiding over the collapse of a 4 decade long dynasty:eek:).>

Not in 1961-1963. If you think it's appropriate to blame managers, why does Keane get off the hook? Houk was given no horses to work with and still consistently performed above expectations.
Um, Bancroft didn't have ten years :lookitup

<I'd be interested in hearing why you think Valentine is a major oversight?>

Given nothing to work with in Texas but still went from 7th to 2nd in one year, then got them above 6th place consistently. General improvement in Mets from 1996 to 2000 even though they tend not to spend wisely.

Yeah, in Mauch's first TWENTY-TWO YEARS, he managed to finish above 4th a grand total of three times :party:

[jjpm74]

Um, Bancroft didn't have ten years :lookitup:

Bancroft spent over 3 decades as a GM.

I'm a little surprised Howser didn't make the cut, but he had a short career.

[RuthMayBond]

Bancroft spent over 3 decades as a GM.
Ok, so we're including that

[jjpm74]

Ok, so we're including that

I'm assuming his role as an early pioneer who introduced baseball to Cuba also factored into him being chosen.

[Paul Wendt]

Frank Bancroft didn't introduce baseball to Cuba. That is an error at baseballlibrary.com (perhaps from Mike Shatzkin, The Ballplayers, or from Jim Charlton, The Baseball Chronology, both published in print around 1990).

Baseball was imported by Esteban Bellan and other sons of the well-to-do, sent to college (or boarding school?) in the US. Bellan is the most famous because after attending Fordham College in the Bronx he played professionally for the Troy Haymakers 1869-72.

There was also some professional baseball in Cuba from sometime 1878 or winter 1879, I think. That is before Bancroft in fall 1879.

[Freakshow]

Yeah, in Mauch's first TWENTY-TWO YEARS, he managed to finish above 4th a grand total of three times.
I don't give managers too much credit, or blame, for their team's fortunes. The managers in history who could take over a team and maximize it are few and far between (Billy Martin, Bill McKechnie, anyone else?).

So, with managers you have to rely on reputation first and "stats" second. You must have a wonderful rep to be rehired time and again despite not winning. That's some of why Mauch is a good choice.

From Wikipedia:
He is by far the winningest manager to have never won a league pennant, three times coming within a single victory. He managed the Philadelphia Phillies (1960-68), Montreal Expos (1969-75, Mauch was their inaugural manager), Minnesota Twins (1976-80), and California Angels (1981-82, 1985-87). His 1,902 career victories ranked 8th in major league history when he retired, and his 3,942 total games ranked 4th.

[jjpm74]

Frank Bancroft didn't introduce baseball to Cuba. That is an error at baseballlibrary.com (perhaps from Mike Shatzkin, The Ballplayers, or from Jim Charlton, The Baseball Chronology, both published in print around 1990).

Baseball was imported by Esteban Bellan and other sons of the well-to-do, sent to college (or boarding school?) in the US. Bellan is the most famous because after attending Fordham College in the Bronx he played professionally for the Troy Haymakers 1869-72.

There was also some professional baseball in Cuba from sometime 1878 or winter 1879, I think. That is before Bancroft in fall 1879.


FWIW, my source was not baseball-library. I'm going by a blurb in Cooperstown on the temporary wall of the future history of baseball in Latin America exhibit that's due to open there in 2009.

[RuthMayBond]

I don't give managers too much credit, or blame, for their team's fortunes. The managers in history who could take over a team and maximize it are few and far between (Billy Martin, Bill McKechnie, anyone else?).True, but why are they stumbling over themselves to add ten managers outside of the Hall?

<So, with managers you have to rely on reputation first and "stats" second. You must have a wonderful rep to be rehired time and again despite not winning.>

And reputation is always accurate? Player Tom Goodwin kept getting rehired, Juan Pierre has a multimillion $ contract

<From Wikipedia:
[I]He is by far the winningest manager to have never won a league pennant, three times coming within a single victory.>

Not even one of those three?

[jjpm74]

True, but why are they stumbling over themselves to add ten managers outside of the Hall?


Read through the 40 page Suburbs of Cooperstown thread and the 8 page draft thread to get better acquainted with the associated project. Why does anyone do a project like this?

[Paul Wendt]

Two sources for quotations and some of the general material below.
JH - John Husman, author of the Frank Bancroft entry in Nineteenth Century Stars, SABR 1989.
BM - Brian McKenna, "Early Major League Ventures into Cuba (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1145259#post1145259)", International Baseball forum, BaseBall-Fever.com 2008.
--

born 1846

Civil War, (age 19 in 1865)
"he organized baseball games between Union Army Regiments" --JH

Manager (field manager among other duties)

1878 New Bedford, International Association and independent
"he pulled his team from the league and went barnstorming. His team played a record 130 games that season and won the championship of New England." --JH
(Jim Mutrie was the regular shortstop. Next year he managed the team based in New Bedford; moved to New York and established the Mets late 1880.)

1879-1880 Worcester, National Association and NL
The International Association of clubs changed its name to National Association after the Guelph and London, Ontario, members dropped out.

"1879
The first American professional team to visit Cuba played its first game on the island in Havana on December 21, 1879." --BM
That was the Worcester, National Association, team under its manager Frank Bancroft. Eight of the ten regulars made the trip, not including ace pitcher and mvp J Lee Richmond.

"Bancroft would led future tours to the island as well and play an instrumental role in bringing the first Cubans to the major leagues, Armando Marsans and Rafael Almeida. . . . The players arrived back in the U.S. via New Orleans on December 31. The trip was financed by a Mr. Soule of Rochester, New York and was not a financial success. They may have played as little as two games in Cuba." --BM
Mr. Soule is A.T. Soule, manufacturer of Dr. Soule's Hop Bitters and other things that make you healthy.

1880
"Upset by his board of directors, he quit the team at the end of the 1880 season. He went to manage the Detroit Wolverines, during their first season in the N.L. [first season anywhere]. He took four of the better Worcester players with him." --JH

1881-1882 Detroit NL

1883 Cleveland NL

1884-1885 Providence NL
The Providence club went out of business after the 1885 season.

Bancroft was a professional manager in the day of the player-captain-manager, player-manager, and recent star player as manager. He left both Worcester and Detroit upset with meddling by directors. Evidently he was looking for clubs that would hire him to be their Harry Wright but clubs didn't do that until the next generation.

1886
"He was out of baseball in 1886, the only year he would miss until his death in 1921." --JH

1887 Philadelphia AA

1889 Indianapolis NL
already in association with John T. Brush, owner of NL clubs in Indianapolis 1887-89, Cincinnati 1891?-1902, New York 1903-1911.

"1895
Frank Bancroft planned another trip to Cuba in January 1895. He gathered Bid McPhee, Short Fuller and Jack Boyle among others to play their way to Cuba,
first stopping in New Orleans and Florida. The team played one game in New Orleans and abandoned the tour by January 4 due to the cold and a bleak financial outlook." --BM

1902 Cincinnati NL (interim)
This was the last season for Brush as Cincinnati owner but Bancroft remained with the club under Garry Herrmann. Mid-season, New York and Cincinnati hired the better Baltimore AL players, including John McGraw and Joe Kelley to play and manage the two teams. Afterward NY owner Andrew Freedman left baseball and Cin owner John Brush moved to New York. Something like John Henry's move from Miami to Boston 100 years later.
I don't know the scope and nature of Bancroft's duties other than field manager between McPhee and Kelley.

1900s/10s
As general manager of the Cincinnati Reds, Bancroft led the 1908 tour of Cuba, the first visit by a major league team. The Tigers, Athletics, and Phillies followed in the next few years. The 1908 series brought Jose Mendez to some attention in the US and it is one cornerstone of Mendez's reputation today (HOF class of 2006).
In the aughts and early teens, Bancroft led other postseason tours of the United States, South and West, by teams of Reds or all-Americans. (I don't recall what the teams were called in Sporting Life. They were Reds supplemented by stars, broadly defined but more prominent than some of the Reds; or stars supplemented by Reds.)

Beside players and journalists, Bancroft was the leading advocate of post-season tours when their regulation or elimination climbed the agenda in the teens. Maybe the Cincinnati Reds were the leading advocate but owner Garry Herrmann was in the chair of the National Commission, the supreme governing body of organized baseball. At best he was a weak advocate who considered other issues more important because the tours were banned about 1915.
(Players were under contract until October 15, then merely reserved (most of them) from hire by other OB clubs, but not rehired by their own clubs until April 15. There was some variation in the dates, maybe covering more than six months by 1915.)

Cincinnati in Bancroft's time led O.B. in hiring white Cubans, first Marsans and Almeida. Pitcher Dolph Luque, Cincinnati 1918-30, was the only Cuban star in the majors, afaik.

[Paul Wendt]

FWIW, my source was not baseball-library. I'm going by a blurb in Cooperstown on the temporary wall of the future history of baseball in Latin America exhibit that's due to open there in 2009.

Maybe it blurbs professional baseball? But even then 1879 is too late.

Fordham University Libraries, Archives and Special Collections: Cuban Baseball
The History of Cuban Baseball at Fordham 1864-1903 (http://www.library.fordham.edu/cubanbaseball/Zaldo.html)

Here is the text for one of the slides:
>>
Zaldo Brothers

The Zaldo brothers, Charles, Henry, and Frederick from Havana, Cuba, were all enrolled as students at Fordham University from 1875-1878. During these three years at Fordham, they too learned and perfected the game of baseball. Upon returning to Cuba in 1878, the Zaldo brothers founded the Almendares Baseball Club, one of the three original Cuban baseball teams. In 1878, Habasa, Almandares, and Matanzas organized themselves professionally to form the "Liga General de Base Ball de la Isla de Cuba." Below is a photograph of Charles Zaldo as a student.
<<

Brian McKenna, linked previously, notes also
"1879-80
The first U.S. ballplayers to play in the Cuban League were Jimmy Macullar and Hick Carpenter during the 1879-80-season for the Colon Baseball Club."

--
On the other hand, yes, Frank Bancroft's resume crucially includes more than field managing mlb teams in pennant races.

[RuthMayBond]

I do have Bancroft as being the best manager in the bigs FOUR STRAIGHT years :bowdown: I've only got one other guy who was the best in his league more than two straight years

[mtortolero]

Mike Scioscia is building a very interesting case:

Year League Team Age G W L WP Finish
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+
2000 AL West Anaheim 41 162 82 80 .506 3
2001 AL West Anaheim 42 162 75 87 .463 3
2002 AL West Anaheim 43 162 99 63 .611 WS 2
2003 AL West Anaheim 44 162 77 85 .475 3
2004 AL West Anaheim 45 162 92 70 .568 1
2005 AL West LA of AN 46 162 95 67 .586 1
2006 AL West LA of AN 47 162 89 73 .549 2
2007 AL West LA of AN 48 162 94 68 .580 1
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 1296 703 593 .542

[RuthMayBond]

Mike Scioscia is building a very interesting case:

Year League Team Age G W L WP Finish
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+
2000 AL West Anaheim 41 162 82 80 .506 3
2001 AL West Anaheim 42 162 75 87 .463 3
2002 AL West Anaheim 43 162 99 63 .611 WS 2
2003 AL West Anaheim 44 162 77 85 .475 3
2004 AL West Anaheim 45 162 92 70 .568 1
2005 AL West LA of AN 46 162 95 67 .586 1
2006 AL West LA of AN 47 162 89 73 .549 2
2007 AL West LA of AN 48 162 94 68 .580 1
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 1296 703 593 .542Though he's had a lot of horses to work with

[dgarza]

Mike Scioscia is building a very interesting case:


So is Willie Randolph

[RuthMayBond]

So is Willie RandolphAs much as you can in three years

[dgarza]

As much as you can in three years

Hence building vs. built

[J W]

I agree, he is building a case. Especially since it doesn't look like he's going anywhere for a while.

Just please stop calling them the LA of AN. It's hard to look at. :hp

[Paul Wendt]

I do have Bancroft as being the best manager in the bigs FOUR STRAIGHT years :bowdown: I've only got one other guy who was the best in his league more than two straight years

which four?
Is there extra credit for managing a brand new team? (Detroit 1881?)

Brian McKenna, " Early Major League Ventures into Cuba (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1145259#post1145259)", International Baseball forum, BaseBall-Fever.com 2008,
yesterday appended a passage in which Troy Soos which incidentally quotes a reference to Bancroft as "the prince of managers".

[RuthMayBond]

which four?1882-1885

<Is there extra credit for managing a brand new team? (Detroit 1881?)>

Nah, how much credit would I give? Then everybody'd want credit for their circumstances too