Was Nolan the Greatest? No, He Was Not

[TheMadDog31]

When I ask most people who they believe is the greatest pitcher ever, most come up with the obvious answers, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, etc. Outside of those names, however, there is always a constant...Nolan Ryan. Many consider him to be the greatest pitcher of all-time. I have tried posting this topic on other websites, but 3/4 of the people on those sites are immature and can only fire back with phrases such as, "Nolan is the greatest you fag" or "Shut the hell up moron". I know that almost all of you guys on this website are mature and can read through this post and see my points, because I do believe that Nolan Ryan is one of the most overrated baseball players of all-time.

My biggest complaint with Ryan would have to be his total lack of control. In addition to striking out 5,714 batters, he also walked 2,795 which is nearly 1,000 more than Lefty Carlton, who ranks second on the all-time list. He also threw 277 wild pitches, which is over 70 more than Jack Morris, who ranks second on the all-time list. Bob Feller once said that Ryan was, "nothing but a thrower that couldn't get the ball over the plate" when comparing Ryan and his former teammate Tom Seaver. He has a point, and the stats prove it.

Another complaint that I have with Ryan is his extremely mediocre career winning percentage, and his absolutely horrific amount of losses. Ryan lost 292 games, which is the most for any modern-era pitcher and third all-time. His career winning percentage was .526, and he was only 32 games over .500. Something a lot of people like to say is, "Well, Ryan did play on bad teams". While this may be the case, it's no excuse. Let's look at some other pitchers like that. In 1946, Bob Feller had a 26-15 record, a 2.18 earned run average, 348 strikeouts, 36 complete games, and a 153 *ERA+. The Indians had a 68-86 record that season. In 1910, Walter Johnson had a 25-17 record, a 1.36 earned run average, 313 strikeouts, 38 complete games, and a 183 *ERA+. The Washington Senators finished the season second to last in the American League with a 66-85 record. Lastly, in 1992, Greg Maddux posted a 20-11 record, a 2.18 earned run average, 199 strikeouts, and a 166 *ERA+. The Cubs posted a 78-84 record. Also, contrary to belief, the teams that Ryan played for had a combined .506 winning percentage while he played for them. Ryan had only a .023 better percentage than the teams he played on. Walter Johnson's Senators didn't even win the pennant until his 18th season, yet he managed to have a .107 better percentage than lowly Washington. In the nine seasons that Ryan had a losing record, he had an earned run average above 3.30 seven times, and had an earned run average above 3.50 four times, showing that even if his team didn't give him run support, it was because he gave up runs in the first place. In fact, he had an earned run average above 3.50 nine times. Walter Johnson only did it three times. Bob Gibson also did it three times. Whitey Ford never had an ERA over 3.24.

Ryan never won a Cy Young either. Say what you want about the awards, the Cy Young shows the pitcher that dominates their league, and considering the highest Ryan ever got was second place once, it shows that he wasn't as dominate as everyone likes to say he was. In his twenty-seven seasons, he played in only eight All-Star games, he got to the postseason five times and has a 1-2 record in seven starts.

I mean, come on, how can you put a guy who had no control, was 32 games over .500, and won one postseason game, ahead of guys like Walter Johnson, Greg Maddux, Whitey Ford, Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Bob Feller, and many others that were far and ahead of Nolan Ryan.

And do keep in mind, this is all strictly in my humble opinion, and I do thank you all for liste...sorry...reading my post.

[Los Bravos]

You're definitely at the right place. That's pretty much the consensus opinion here.

A dominating presence, a clear first ballot HOFer, and by all accounts a good fellow, but not really Top 10 material. As I've written before, I would rank four or five pitchers just from his generation ahead of him.

[blacksilverfan12]

I agree with you completely. Ryan was a decent pitcher, and many of his stats came from longevity. Like what you said about his winning precentage, Johnson played for a lot of bad teams and won over 400 games

[m8644]

yea, unfortunately I've had this arguement with far too many people who think ryan was the greatest thing since slice bread.

Top 20-25 pitcher, sure why not (though I am still in the process of ranking my all time pitchers so I cant say exactly where I'd put him). But to rank him in the top 10, which MANY people seem to do, is just flat out wrong in my opinion.

[geezer]

Maddog, you forgot to mention Steve Carlton in 1972 for the Phillies.

[Cowtipper]

Great post, TheMadDog31. Ryan was a solid pitcher who got a lot of his stats from playing a long time, but I wouldn't ever call him anything near the greatest pitcher of all time, or even his era. His average record was 12-11 - which really isn't too impressive - and he walked over 200 batters twice in his career. That is terrible control.

[ElHalo]

And neither is Pete Rose one of the top nine OF's of all time, or Ernie Banks one of the top 2 SS's, or Brooks Robinson (?) one of the top two 3Bmen. It doesn't take a genius to know that the All-Century team crowd doesn't really get a lot of stuff. Ryan isn't a top 25 pitcher.

[TheMadDog31]

Maddog, you forgot to mention Steve Carlton in 1972 for the Phillies.

My oh my, yes I did. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll go ahead and do that now.

In 1972, Carlton posted a 27-10 record, a 1.97 earned run average, 310 strikeouts, and 30 complete games. The Phillies posted an absolutely abysmal final record of 59-97, and finished dead last in the NL East, 37.5 games behind of the Pirates, and 11 games behind Montreal, who was second to last.

I'm glad I get a lot of support on this website. Thank you guys for actually taking the time to read all of it and see the facts.

[TheMadDog31]

And neither is Pete Rose one of the top nine OF's of all time, or Ernie Banks one of the top 2 SS's, or Brooks Robinson (?) one of the top two 3Bmen. It doesn't take a genius to know that the All-Century team crowd doesn't really get a lot of stuff. Ryan isn't a top 25 pitcher.

Yes, I agree with all you said. Just out of curiosity, do you think Paul is getting into the Hall of Fame when he is eligible?

[ElHalo]

Yes, I agree with all you said. Just out of curiosity, do you think Paul is getting into the Hall of Fame when he is eligible?

If he has a ticket.

Paul O'Neill is my favorite player of my lifetime. Absolutely fantastic clubhouse guy -- great intensity -- great love of the game, realatively good at all aspects of offense and defense... but he just wasn't quite HoF great.

[Paul Wendt]

Ryan was a very poor fielder, or worse.

For his career, 1.28 plays per nine innings, about 30% below league average 1.89. Fielding average .895(!), about 115% more errors than league average .952. That low "range" is associated with his strikeouts and it should be embodied in his ERA, which is why some people ignore pitcher fielding. That high error rate, on the other hand, charges team fielding rather than his ERA with some of the runs scored.

Ryan's poor fielding probably cost the Astros their first World Series in 1980.
For the Phillies en route to their only championship, that was quintessential Ryan, just as much as Pete Rose catching the foul pop off Bob Boone's glove was quintessential Rose.

[TheMadDog31]

If he has a ticket.

Paul O'Neill is my favorite player of my lifetime. Absolutely fantastic clubhouse guy -- great intensity -- great love of the game, realatively good at all aspects of offense and defense... but he just wasn't quite HoF great.

Yes, Paul is Top Ten favorites for me as well. But, I have been around for a very long time, so I'm sure my lifetime stretches farther than yours. I mean, let's look at it this way.

If Nolan Ryan can get into the Hall of Fame with almost a unanimous vote, maybe O'Neill can get into the Hall of Fame sometime in the future.

[jjpm74]

The main reason Ryan shows up in these types of conversations is because of what he did towards the end of his career. When he got his 6th and 7th no hitter, and struck out his 5000th batter, the media ate it up. He was a powerful, but wild pitcher. Someone a 500 HR dominated media could relate to. He even got top billing over Rickey Henderson in several papers because the day Henderson broke the SB record and declared himself the best player in the history of the game, Ryan pitched a no-no.

The guy was well-liked and what he did in his 40s was amazing, but I wouldn't put him in the top ten of all time. Top 20, probably.

[ElHalo]

Yes, Paul is Top Ten favorites for me as well. But, I have been around for a very long time, so I'm sure my lifetime stretches farther than yours. I mean, let's look at it this way.

If Nolan Ryan can get into the Hall of Fame with almost a unanimous vote, maybe O'Neill can get into the Hall of Fame sometime in the future.

Well, I'm still on the good side of 30 for another year or two, so I guess that places me.

[Cowtipper]

Some other pitchers who did well with a sub-.500 team:

Jim Colborn: 20-12, 3.18 ERA. Team: 1973 Milwaukee Brewers, 74-88
Teddy Higuera: 20-11, 2.79 ERA. Team: 1986 Milwaukee Brewers, 77-84

[TheMadDog31]

Well, I'm still on the good side of 30 for another year or two, so I guess that places me.

Haha, lucky for you. You damn youngsters with your pop music and your low-rider jeans. Oh my, I'm sorry, I'm that old...yet.

[futurehalloffamer]

If he has a ticket.

Paul O'Neill is my favorite player of my lifetime. Absolutely fantastic clubhouse guy -- great intensity -- great love of the game, realatively good at all aspects of offense and defense... but he just wasn't quite HoF great.

Ah man, I had no idea that was a picture of Paul O'Neill! I always assumed that was a picture of yourself posing in a Yankees cap!

[Brad Harris]

Doesn't a "greatest ever" thread belong in the History forum?

[TheMadDog31]

Doesn't a "greatest ever" thread belong in the History forum?

Why does this bother you so much?

[stejay]

Ryan was better than Clemens. Nolan was much better, and I think I would prefer him pitching than Clemens if my life was on the line lol.

[J W]

I'd rather face Ryan with my life on the line. At least I'd know I'd only have to dodge the ball instead of unidentified flying bat pieces. :D

[dgarza]

realatively good at all aspects of offense and defense... but he just wasn't quite HoF great.
Relatively good if you mean a little above average. The AL must be some fly weight league if O'Neill can manage to bat above .300.

[Brad Harris]

Why does this bother you so much?

Since your topic isn't "Does Ryan Belong in the Hall of Fame?", you've posted it in the wrong place (not that a dearth of opinion exists among this forum's regulars). It doesn't bother me in the least to discuss Ryan's relative greatness and a simple mistake in failing to follow board etiquette doesn't either. Don't be so presumptuous.

[stejay]

I'm notbeing funny, but aren't we forgetting something here? The 5174 people he struck out? Also, the 324 games he won? If that aint HOF greatness, then what is???

[dgarza]

I'm notbeing funny, but aren't we forgetting something here? The 5174 people he struck out? Also, the 324 games he won? If that aint HOF greatness, then what is???
That is HOF greatness. But it isn't Roger Clemens greatness. Nor is it Greg Maddux greatness. Certainly isn't Walter Johnson greatness.
Ryan was a very good player who did 1 thing better than anyone else did. So did Rickey Henderson. Neither are Top 10 at their position.

[stejay]

That is HOF greatness. But it isn't Roger Clemens greatness. Nor is it Greg Maddux greatness. Certainly isn't Walter Johnson greatness.
Ryan was a very good player who did 1 thing better than anyone else did. So did Rickey Henderson. Neither are Top 10 at their position.

Henderson, maybe not, but Ryan is top 5, not discarded.

[SamtheBravesFan]

That is HOF greatness. But it isn't Roger Clemens greatness. Nor is it Greg Maddux greatness. Certainly isn't Walter Johnson greatness.
Ryan was a very good player who did 1 thing better than anyone else did. So did Rickey Henderson. Neither are Top 10 at their position.

Actually, I think there are a few people who would put Rickey Henderson as a Top 10 left fielder. ;)

[dgarza]

Actually, I think there are a few people who would put Rickey Henderson as a Top 10 left fielder. ;)
Yeah, I know :rolleyes: But then again the same thing can obviously be said about Ryan (well, as a pitcher, not a LFer).

[stejay]

Yeah, I know :rolleyes: But then again the same thing can obviously be said about Ryan (well, as a pitcher, not a LFer).

I am one of those people.

[bob]

I think mostpeople who dont dig too deep in to stats remember him for his huge strikeout totals, no hitters and playing forever.
Yes these are all very impressive, but are all thanks to his longevity, not because his greatness or peak. He was top 10 pitcher for his era for a very long time. Yes he should be in the HOF, but isnt one of the best.

[stejay]

Maybe his overall stats may not be amazingly good. But I have grown up wih great stories of Nolan in his peak, as I was only really old enough to remember him when he was washed up. But you know, he is a rare case in my point of view where I don't care about his stats. As a qualified statistician, this is very rare.

[1905 Giants]

Henderson, maybe not, but Ryan is top 5, not discarded.

Ryan is a top 5 pitcher?

Here's just eight who beat Ryan:

Lefty Grove
W. Johnson
Cy Young
Peter Alexander
Christy Mathewson
Warren Spahn
Steve Carlton
Satchel Paige

[stejay]

My list-

1. W.Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Mathewson
4. Grove
5. Nolan Ryan
6. Alexander
7. Clemens
8. Spahn
9. Paige
10. Carlton

[1905 Giants]

My list-

1. W.Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Mathewson
4. Grove
5. Nolan Ryan
6. Alexander
7. Clemens
8. Spahn
9. Paige
10. Carlton

Fair enough, since it is your list.

[dgarza]

I think mostpeople who dont dig too deep in to stats remember him for his huge strikeout totals, no hitters and playing forever.
Yes these are all very impressive, but are all thanks to his longevity, not because his greatness or peak. He was top 10 pitcher for his era for a very long time. Yes he should be in the HOF, but isnt one of the best.
His K totals are not just products of longevity (not in the way Don Sutton's K totals are). There was a 21 year stretch in which he was never lower than #6 in seasonal league K totals. His K/9 has often been among the best.
He had 4 No-hitters (within nearly just 2 years time span) before he turned 30 and 2 more (less than a year apart) after 40 (in which case longevity and being older would be a stike against you). He broke the All Time Career K record in only his 16th full season.

Now he also did play forever, but I don't see how that diminishes his K numbers from his 20s to mid-30s.

His endurance and longevity were not superfluous. Some of his best and most efficient seasons came at 40 or beyond (we'll always have 1987 :)).

[bob]

His K totals are not just products of longevity (not in the way Don Sutton's K totals are). There was a 21 year stretch in which he was never lower than #6 in seasonal league K totals. His K/9 has often been among the best.
He had 4 No-hitters (within nearly just 2 years time span) before he turned 30 and 2 more (less than a year apart) after 40 (in which case longevity and being older would be a stike against you). He broke the All Time Career K record in only his 16th full season.

Now he also did play forever, but I don't see how that diminishes his K numbers from his 20s to mid-30s.

His endurance and longevity were not superfluous. Some of his best and most efficient seasons came at 40 or beyond (we'll always have 1987 :)).
I do agree with you and think that he is underrated here whilst overrated in the general public.
He was one of the best strikeout pitchers of all time, but the huge margin his totals shadow over every other pitcher is because of his longevity, and i think thats why the general public believe he is so much better than prehaps he was. If he had a normal length career and retired with about the same as Clemens and Johnson have he would still be considered great, but not nearly as much IMO.

[stejay]

retired with about the same as Clemens and Johnson have he would still be considered great, but not nearly as much IMO.

Clemens and Johnson have not retired yet. Ryan was 49 when he retired. Clemens is 45, and Johnson is 44.

[J W]

I'm surprised people still put Clemens over Maddux post-scandal. :D

Ryan is one of those players that stat-heads tend to be blaise about and stat-o-phobic people tend to like quite a bit. I certainly remember the phenomenon that was Nolan Ryan... I'm just old enough to do so. I saw Ryan's 5000th strikeout on a small television in Memorial Stadium (ironically enough it was Rickey Henderson he struck out). But then, Fernando Valenzuela for a brief time was a phenomenon. Dontrelle Willis too. I guess it depends on how much stock you put in the aura of a player.

Me, I'll take Maddux over Ryan any day of the week... and Ryan would likely rank between 20-30 all time on my list. But I'll respect what you think and your list happens to be quite consistent based on longevity. Putting Cy Young second and Steve Carlton in the top ten are evidence of that.

[TheMadDog31]

Since your topic isn't "Does Ryan Belong in the Hall of Fame?", you've posted it in the wrong place (not that a dearth of opinion exists among this forum's regulars). It doesn't bother me in the least to discuss Ryan's relative greatness and a simple mistake in failing to follow board etiquette doesn't either. Don't be so presumptuous.

It's ok buddy, I was merely kidding. I noticed that I posted it in the wrong place shortly after I posted the actual thread, but I am new to this place so it was a "newbie's mistake" if you will.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Welcome to the site MadDog. You may be interested to know that Nolan is being discussed as overrated in an overrated/underrated thread in the "History of the Game" section. I'll agree with the consensus here. Nolan was a very good pitcher and, apparently, a good guy. His no-hitters and strikeout totals are the stuff of legend, and he is a deserving first-ballot Hall of Famer. However, he is not even close to being the greatest pitcher ever. Off the top of my head, I can name seven superior pitchers whose careers overlapped Ryan's:

Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Tom Glavine
Tom Seaver
Sandy Koufax

[Old Sweater]

Stick Nolan Ryan in Walter Johnsons era with the bigger strike zone and throwing mostly fastballs and I'm sure he would have sone just fine against mostly smaller players.

[Westlake]

Stick Nolan Ryan in Walter Johnsons era with the bigger strike zone and throwing mostly fastballs and I'm sure he would have sone just fine against mostly smaller players.

As long as you also stick him without the advanced scouting reports, medical technology, and with crappy equipment.

[Old Sweater]

As long as you also stick him without the advanced scouting reports, medical technology, and with crappy equipment.

He'd do just fine with that to. All he needed was a bicyle,aspirin instead of advil and in a 8 team league I'm sure he had enough memory for his own scouting report.

[JerseySoxFan19]

That is HOF greatness. But it isn't Roger Clemens greatness. Nor is it Greg Maddux greatness. Certainly isn't Walter Johnson greatness.
Ryan was a very good player who did 1 thing better than anyone else did. So did Rickey Henderson. Neither are Top 10 at their position.
I agree that Maddux and Johnson were better but Clemens? I don't think we need to be talking about him in the HOF forum, lol.

[hellborn]

Stick Nolan Ryan in Walter Johnsons era with the bigger strike zone and throwing mostly fastballs and I'm sure he would have sone just fine against mostly smaller players.

Even a horse like Nolan probably would have had to pick his spots for using his top fastball back in a time when he would have been expected to finish just about every game he started.
I also think that teams would have driven him nuts with bunts. I would think that he could have improved somewhat if he had been forced to work on it more by circumstances, but the man was a historically bad fielder.
Ryan also stunk at the plate. Again, he may have improved with work if it was just killing him, but Johnson, for example, was a good hitter, and he helped himself a lot.
My take is that Ryan was blessed with one of the finest arms ever and also worked like nobody else to stay in a condition that allowed him to throw an amazing number of power pitches, but did not have the exceptional degree of coordination that characterizes most pro baseball players. His curve had tremendous break, but he couldn't get it over...his change came late and seemed to be nothing special, just something to mix in to make the batter think. I also think that he was very stubborn in his approach to the game, would rather walk the .200 hitting SS than give him a pitch he might hit.

[Westlake]

He'd do just fine with that to. All he needed was a bicyle,aspirin instead of advil and in a 8 team league I'm sure he had enough memory for his own scouting report.

I hear he also has x-ray vision, a cape that can stop bullets, and the ability to manipulate kinetic energy (a la Gambit).

[Captain Cold Nose]

I agree that Maddux and Johnson were better but Clemens? I don't think we need to be talking about him in the HOF forum, lol.

We actually do. Regardless of what he used or to what extent it helped him, he was still able topitch as well as he did. Possible indictments or individual blind vitriol isn't going to take that away.

[Edgartohof]

Clemens and Johnson have not retired yet. Ryan was 49 when he retired. Clemens is 45, and Johnson is 44.

Wasn't he 46 his last season? Julio Franco on the other hand will be 49...(or was it 109?).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Wasn't he 46 his last season? Julio Franco on the other hand will be 49...(or was it 109?).

Clemens was 44 last season. Julio Franco was 48 last season.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Stick Nolan Ryan in Walter Johnsons era with the bigger strike zone and throwing mostly fastballs and I'm sure he would have sone just fine against mostly smaller players.

I'm sure he would've done just fine too. He would've done just fine in any era...but he wouldn't have been among the best pitchers ever in any era.

[Old Sweater]

I hear he also has x-ray vision, a cape that can stop bullets, and the ability to manipulate kinetic energy (a la Gambit).

No you are confusing him with Walter Johnson in the history department. Another great pitcher.

[cup2006sensrule]

The main reason Ryan shows up in these types of conversations is because of what he did towards the end of his career. When he got his 6th and 7th no hitter, and struck out his 5000th batter, the media ate it up. He was a powerful, but wild pitcher. Someone a 500 HR dominated media could relate to. He even got top billing over Rickey Henderson in several papers because the day Henderson broke the SB record and declared himself the best player in the history of the game, Ryan pitched a no-no.

The guy was well-liked and what he did in his 40s was amazing, but I wouldn't put him in the top ten of all time. Top 20, probably.

Ryan is very overarated by many people. But let's give his Texas years some credit. Somehow well past 40 he really found his control. Looking at him as a layman fan.. knowing he was 42 or 43 or 44 and was that freaking good over 20 years into his career has to make many layman fans really big Ryan fans.

Somehow he really found a great deal of control extremely.. almost insanely late in his career. His control in his best years in Texas included a very high strikeout rate as well as an awesome control and all the power all the batters feared. Was he roided up? I doubt it. Many of the roid era got better late like Bonds and Clemens. I doubt Nolan was on Roids.

Let's say Ryan was always very good.. at the end he was even better. Even considering Spahn almost no one was better post 40 years old.

Does that mean Ryan was top 10 or 20 or 25 ever? Maybe not but he was great old .. and he got a ton of hype for that deservadedly I think.

[hellborn]

I think that Ryan's late career blooming had a lot to do with a change in attitude...he wasn't trying to throw unhittable strikes on the black on every pitch to every batter. Lo and behold, he was still getting tons of Ks, but walking fewer batters and being generally very effective and efficient as a starter.
I saw one of Ryan's no hitters with the Rangers on TV down there...he had ungodly stuff that day, but was so wild at first that I thought he wouldn't last two innings. He was firing chin high fastballs at the Jays, but his stuff was so crazy that they were swinging at them. He got the stuff under control after a couple of innings and was just incredible for the rest of the game...I wonder if the younger Ryan would have just kept going for the wild swinging Ks and ended up walking a slew of hitters.
I can't take Ryan seriously as a candidate for the best pitcher ever, or one of the top 10, but what a performer and athlete. He was one of my favorite players to watch, and I'd be shocked to see another one like him in my lifetime.

[J W]

One argument I can buy regarding Ryan is that he is a modern, integrated league pitcher. Considering many of the top 25 pitchers of all time come pre-WWII... Ryan would climb the charts with a severe time adjustment. But he'd still be up against:

- Steve Carlton
- Roger Clemens
- Bob Gibson
- Randy Johnson
- Sandy Koufax
- Greg Maddux
- Juan Marichal
- Pedro Martinez
- Jim Palmer
- Tom Seaver

...does he crack that top ten list of 60's-present pitchers? My opinion is no, but he could very well be 11th.

[SamtheBravesFan]

So it's a disagreement of placement.

I have no qualms about Ryan being in the top 25. He makes it there easily.

[dgarza]

I think that Ryan's late career blooming had a lot to do with a change in attitude...he wasn't trying to throw unhittable strikes on the black on every pitch to every batter. Lo and behold, he was still getting tons of Ks, but walking fewer batters and being generally very effective and efficient as a starter.
Late in his career, he started leading the AL in WHIP.

[Captain Cold Nose]

So it's a disagreement of placement.

I have no qualms about Ryan being in the top 25. He makes it there easily.

If nothing else, this thread has well served MadDog's premise.

[White Knight]

Henderson, maybe not, but Ryan is top 5, not discarded.

He's top 5 - of the last 25 years. Probably 10-15 of all-time. The ones who are better in the last 25 years:

1. Roger Clemens

2. Greg Maddux

3. Randy Johnson

4. Pedro Martinez