If only the Marlins had some money to work with.

[philkid3]

From the Biz of Baseball. (http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1970&Itemid=39)

Payroll for the Florida Marlins will increase from its ridiculously low levels, but not this year, and most likely not for a few years to come.

That’s the word from owner Jeffrey Loria.

In fact, if you thought they were low last season, this year will show just how low you can go, cutting payroll (again), by as much as a third. As reported by The AP:

A new stadium means the notoriously frugal Marlins plan to increase their payroll, but not until the team moves into the new park.

The Marlins’ payroll for 2008 is projected to be around $20 million, the lowest in the league and $10 million lower than last season.

“It’s a function of revenues, and we were not really able to derive any revenues out of this facility,” Loria said of the team’s current home, Dolphin Stadium. “As we get closer to the (new) stadium, those things will change. We need to be in that facility.”

The new stadium, built on the site of the decaying Orange Bowl, had funding pass ($515 million, with the county kicking in $347 million, or 67 percent of the total. The city will contribute $13 million in hotel bed taxes, thorw in as much as $10 million to raze the Orange Bowl and be in charge of building the parking structure. For their part, the each year, and then re-selling them.) just over a week ago, and still has a legal challenge to get through. But, if matters continue in the direction they are headed, the new stadium groundbreaking would be this coming November, with a 2011 projected opening date.

On the player payroll at $20 million, that would be $5 million less than what the club will receive in revenue-sharing, which is projected to be $25 million. Apparently, a “function of the revenues” is to make a mockery of the revenue-sharing system, and do a good bit of profit making.

Forbes estimated that the Marlins posted $43.3 million in operating income last year. That operating income included earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. How did the Marlins rate in terms of operating income – a measure of profit – compared to their other 29 counterparts? They were first with the Dodgers in second at $25.5 million, a difference of 41 percent.

Cut your margins enough (low player payroll) and regardless of whether you have embarrassingly low attendance by rolling out a team of made up with what can best be described as replacement level players, take in a healthy level of revenue-sharing, and what you have is a prime example of Jeffrey Loria and David Sampson living on corporate welfare.

This author is opposed to a salary floor, but the Marlins make it hard for me to keep that position year after year. Pathetic.

[Old Sweater]

The Florida Marlins where sent a check for $31 million. The Marlins opening day payroll was just north of $14 million. Where does the responsibility lie in a system that gives tens of millions of dollars to owners who refuse to invest those revenues directly back into their product? Is it the Yankees and the Red Sox who aren’t getting it right or the Marlins and the Royals who are getting it wrong?


http://sportsbiznews.blogspot.com/2006/10/good-news-new-mlb-labor-accord-bad_24.html
^2006

MLB has to do something where the clubs receiving revenue sharing have to invest it in the club payroll.

[philkid3]

Agreed. The Marlins are doing what's right by them. I don't necessarily admire it, but it's perfectly justified.

The problem is in baseball's hands, and they need to do something about it.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

And then he is expecting to draw more spectators? I will not be surprised if there will be more than one game this season, where only 200 spectators will show up. :dismay:

Overhere we have a saying that you have to make costs before you can make a profit. It is something Loria is not willing to understand. The man is simply too greedy.

Is he really that simple to think that just a new stadium will help?

This man is ruining baseball.

[Old Sweater]

Agreed. The Marlins are doing what's right by them. I don't necessarily admire it, but it's perfectly justified.

The problem is in baseball's hands, and they need to do something about it.

I'm happy that the Rockies did invest the 16mil from the link I posted into last years payroll and already have increased the payroll from 56mil in 2007 to 72-75mil for this year. It has restored my faith in the Monforts who own the Rockies. With the Monforts cheap ways of the past I thought for sure the Rockies were going to become a 6 year farm club for the rest of MLB with the farm system the Rockies built up by good draft choices after all the losing seasons (2001-2006) Last year was the first year though that the Rockies didn't have to pay some of Hamptons salary from that 3 team trade(Marlins/Braves) that saved them 40mil in the long run.(Hamptons 121mil down to 81mil)

[philkid3]

Overhere we have a saying that you have to make costs before you can make a profit. It is something Loria is not willing to understand. The man is simply too greedy.

If he's making plenty of money, what is it that he doesn't understand?

[efin98]

If he's making plenty of money, what is it that he doesn't understand?

He understands the system well, they have manipulated their team into a money making venture at the rich teams' expense.

[philkid3]

He understands the system well, they have manipulated their team into a money making venture at the rich teams' expense.

And I was asking biscuit fan why he thinks Loria has to spend money to make money. He seemed to be framing it as Loria is having trouble making money and doesn't understand how to correct that, when, in fact, he is making plenty of money.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

If he's making plenty of money, what is it that he doesn't understand?

The question is if he would make money without cutting costs.

I think that he keeps cutting costs because the team can't make money otherwise. So if he is making plenty of money, why does he keep fielding bad teams. At least teams with a lot of no names. That doesn't draw spectators. The fans want a good team. The Marlins have a great farm system. But every time a player is about to ask for a salary raise, Loria is trading them. You have to invest money to get a good team (sure not Yankee like, but still you have to invest). And that is something he is not doing. He is just abusing the stadium argument, so he doesn't have to invest. And he is not investing to force the city of Miami to build a new stadium for him. :dismay:

Probably you have a different opinion. You may call me biased, so be it. But I really think that this man should not be allowed to be an owner of a baseball team anymore.

[philkid3]

The question is if he would make money without cutting costs.
He might, but no, that wasn't a question. He is making money.


I think that he keeps cutting costs because the team can't make money otherwise. So if he is making plenty of money, why does he keep fielding bad teams. At least teams with a lot of no names. That doesn't draw spectators. The fans want a good team. The Marlins have a great farm system. But every time a player is about to ask for a salary raise, Loria is trading them. You have to invest money to get a good team (sure not Yankee like, but still you have to invest). And that is something he is not doing. He is just abusing the stadium argument, so he doesn't have to invest. And he is not investing to force the city of Miami to build a new stadium for him. :dismay:
Yes, but he is still making money. He doesn't have to put butts in seats to make money. He is already making it. You're straying away from my original question, which was: why do you say, "Overhere we have a saying that you have to make costs before you can make a profit. It is something Loria is not willing to understand. The man is simply too greedy," when making money is clearly not the problem.



Probably you have a different opinion. You may call me biased, so be it. But I really think that this man should not be allowed to be an owner of a baseball team anymore.
Biased towards what? Why would I call you biased? I don't blame you for disliking his ownership strategy, I don't particularly either. That wasn't what I was questioning from your original post. I don't have a very different opinion. I just don't see how he's having trouble making money, that's the opposite of true.


As far as his right to ownership, it's baseball's fault for having a stupid-as-hell financial system. If baseball doesn't want teams run like this, they should do something about it. Everyone who points their fingers at Jeffrey Loria is pointing their fingers at the wrong place. Point it at baseball ownership in general and the overly powerful player's union.

And it's not like the Marlins are a bottom feeder organization. They've already won twice as many championships as my team has won playoff games. Ever. I'll take that.

We had years of big names and high payrolls. I'd gladly switch histories with the Marlins, though.



I'm not sure if baseball doesn't realize that the financial structure is part of why the NFL does so well or if they do realize it and the gears are stuck so much that they really just cannot do anything about it. I'm sure it's somewhere in the middle, and whatever the reason it does need to be fixed. But I don't blame Loria, I blame the system. And Loria's got a ring, so he's not even the worst out there.

[efin98]

And I was asking biscuit fan why he thinks Loria has to spend money to make money. He seemed to be framing it as Loria is having trouble making money and doesn't understand how to correct that, when, in fact, he is making plenty of money.

I think he meant they are turning a profit from the revenue sharing but that may be the only way they are turning a profit based on their "bad teams"(really actually did well since he bought them) and low attendance at games...

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

He might, but no, that wasn't a question. He is making money.

So if he is making money, why don't the Marlins have some money to work with?

Yes, but he is still making money. He doesn't have to put butts in seats to make money. He is already making it. You're straying away from my original question, which was: why do you say, "Overhere we have a saying that you have to make costs before you can make a profit. It is something Loria is not willing to understand. The man is simply too greedy," when making money is clearly not the problem.

OK. He is making money. So why is he not investing? Like efin98 said: The revenue sharing makes him earning money. If this would have not been here, I dare to doubt if the Marlins would be a profitable organisation.


Biased towards what? Why would I call you biased? I don't blame you for disliking his ownership strategy, I don't particularly either. That wasn't what I was questioning from your original post. I don't have a very different opinion. I just don't see how he's having trouble making money, that's the opposite of true.
I thought that you might have noticed that I used to be a big Expos fan too. Taking that in consideration, someone might call me biased. When you look at the Marlins situation, it is practically the same scenario as with the Expos. Refusing to invest, only nagging about a stadium that the city has to build. The man has already ruined a franchise. No need for another one to be destroyed.


As far as his right to ownership, it's baseball's fault for having a stupid-as-hell financial system. If baseball doesn't want teams run like this, they should do something about it. Everyone who points their fingers at Jeffrey Loria is pointing their fingers at the wrong place. Point it at baseball ownership in general and the overly powerful player's union.

I agree with you on the salary cap, if that is what you mean. But tak a look at Frank McCourt. He acquired the Dodgers with borrowed money, but he keeps investing in the team and the stadium. Kudos to him. I know that LA's market is much bigger than Miami's but Loria can take this as an example.

[philkid3]

So if he is making money, why don't the Marlins have some money to work with?
They do. They have more unused money to work with than any other team.


I agree with you on the salary cap, if that is what you mean. But tak a look at Frank McCourt. He acquired the Dodgers with borrowed money, but he keeps investing in the team and the stadium. Kudos to him. I know that LA's market is much bigger than Miami's but Loria can take this as an example.
Not necessarily or just a salary cap. I mean, in general, creating a better system of competetive balance FORCING owners to put a minimum ammount of money in to their rosters.

Make the playing field off the playing field fair and force everyone to participate, basically.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

They do. They have more unused money to work with than any other team.



Not necessarily or just a salary cap. I mean, in general, creating a better system of competetive balance FORCING owners to put a minimum ammount of money in to their rosters.

Make the playing field off the playing field fair and force everyone to participate, basically.

When you look at it that way, sure the system in the NFL is better. Of course Loria isn't the only one running his business like this. Take Pohlad for example. But I still think Loria is the one of the worst, if not THE worst owner in baseball.

[-Kyle-]

100% agree with YankeeBiscuit...he's ruining a could be great franchise. He must have some of the greatest talent evaluators (look at Marlin's drafts) and they live so close to the the Carribean I am guessing a lot of players don't mind signing there cheap. And what does he do? Dig the franchise into the ground.

[bigtime39]

If you're not going to make it to the playoffs anyway, what is the purpose of spending more money? Loria may or may not be a reprehensible human being, but if you're not going to have enough revenues to afford a winning team before 2011, when your new stadium opens, what is it that obligates you invest additional cash to field a 60-win team, when you can field a 50-win team and turn a profit? Now I would hope those profits are being held for a future day when the Marlins can compete, but I'm not for forcing Loria to use his revenue-sharing cash this year to buy 10 additional, irrelevant wins.

[philkid3]

When you look at it that way, sure the system in the NFL is better. Of course Loria isn't the only one running his business like this. Take Pohlad for example. But I still think Loria is the one of the worst, if not THE worst owner in baseball.

I refuse to believe he is possibly the worst. He's delivered a championship for his team. Mine has never even won a playoff game. And he's been at it longer.

[Imgran]

They do. They have more unused money to work with than any other team.



Not necessarily or just a salary cap. I mean, in general, creating a better system of competetive balance FORCING owners to put a minimum ammount of money in to their rosters.

Make the playing field off the playing field fair and force everyone to participate, basically.

"OK, Joe Rookie, in your arbitration request you ask for $500,000. Between you and me that's about a fair price for your services. But we're under the floor right now, and we need to spend or we'll suffer revenue sharing penalties, so we're going to ask the arbitrator to award you 1.5 million."

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

If you're not going to make it to the playoffs anyway, what is the purpose of spending more money? Loria may or may not be a reprehensible human being, but if you're not going to have enough revenues to afford a winning team before 2011, when your new stadium opens, what is it that obligates you invest additional cash to field a 60-win team, when you can field a 50-win team and turn a profit? Now I would hope those profits are being held for a future day when the Marlins can compete, but I'm not for forcing Loria to use his revenue-sharing cash this year to buy 10 additional, irrelevant wins.

I think that this franchise could reach so much more if they would have kept Cabrera and Willis. If you want to build a good team, it won't work in one year. Therefore Loria should have kept both talented players. One can make more profit if you field a good 60/70 wins team. I really think that the fans prefer that over a mediocre team.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

I refuse to believe he is possibly the worst. He's delivered a championship for his team. Mine has never even won a playoff game. And he's been at it longer.

The preparations for this 2003 championship team were already made by his predecessor. I don't consider Loria responsible for that year's championship.

Sure he did not have a fire sale afterwards, but nevertheless he traded Derek Lee and he did not resign Ugueth Urbina and Iván Rodríguez, all to cut costs again.

[-Kyle-]

If you're not going to make it to the playoffs anyway, what is the purpose of spending more money? Loria may or may not be a reprehensible human being, but if you're not going to have enough revenues to afford a winning team before 2011, when your new stadium opens, what is it that obligates you invest additional cash to field a 60-win team, when you can field a 50-win team and turn a profit? Now I would hope those profits are being held for a future day when the Marlins can compete, but I'm not for forcing Loria to use his revenue-sharing cash this year to buy 10 additional, irrelevant wins.

So its all about the playoffs? If you can't make it into the playoffs, you dump your team? No! You always try your best to field the best team possible. You want the baseball team to be doing its best for the fans, not for the owner.

[philkid3]

The preparations for this 2003 championship team were already made by his predecessor. I don't consider Loria responsible for that year's championship.

Sure he did not have a fire sale afterwards, but nevertheless he traded Derek Lee and he did not resign Ugueth Urbina and Iván Rodríguez, all to cut costs again.

I don't consider any of those particularly bad moves. Though Urbina is in hindsight.

Are we now going to hold it against any team that makes any transaction?


Again, no way is he worse than Tom Hicks.

[philkid3]

So its all about the playoffs? If you can't make it into the playoffs, you dump your team? No! You always try your best to field the best team possible. You want the baseball team to be doing its best for the fans, not for the owner.

I disagree, you don't always try to field the best team possible, you try and build the best franchise.

I don't want the Rangers to do everything to be the best team they can this year, I want them to do everything they can to be the best team in baseball in the future.

[bigtime39]

I think that this franchise could reach so much more if they would have kept Cabrera and Willis. If you want to build a good team, it won't work in one year. Therefore Loria should have kept both talented players. One can make more profit if you field a good 60/70 wins team. I really think that the fans prefer that over a mediocre team.

I don't agree. The Met$ have gone all Yankee$ on the division with the Santana trade. You still have Atlanta and Philly fielding strong squads. The Nationals--if they find anybody who can pitch and stay healthy--could also surprise some people. It makes perfect sense for the Marlins to stockpile young talent that will be under their control for the next six years or so, and lay in the weeds for a while.
They weren't going anywhere with Cabrera and Willis. They're not going anywhere without them this year, either, but they're rid of the salary, and got good, young players who are a good ways from arbitration in return.

[bigtime39]

I know it will never happen, but...
...wouldn't it be nice if the Blue Jays, Orioles and Rays staged a protest against MLBs archaic wreck of an economic system, and all slashed their payrolls down to Marlins levels? Barring a mid air collision between the Yankee$ and Red $ox charter planes, none of the three has any short-term chance of winning a playoff spot, so why bother to invest in the short term? Trade everybody making over the league minimum for prospects, and we'll see ya in 2011 or so.
It would probably be hardest for the Rays to go along, as they're about to reap the bounty of all those high draft picks they've had over the last 10 years.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

I don't consider any of those particularly bad moves. Though Urbina is in hindsight.

Are we now going to hold it against any team that makes any transaction?



No I am not going to hold it against ANY team that makes a transaction.

I am just doing that with Loria. Like I said, he already ruined a franchise, and if the city of Miami would not have agreed in building him a stadium, this team might have ended the same.

[philkid3]

I don't agree. The Met$ have gone all Yankee$ on the division with the Santana trade. You still have Atlanta and Philly fielding strong squads. The Nationals--if they find anybody who can pitch and stay healthy--could also surprise some people. It makes perfect sense for the Marlins to stockpile young talent that will be under their control for the next six years or so, and lay in the weeds for a while.
They weren't going anywhere with Cabrera and Willis. They're not going anywhere without them this year, either, but they're rid of the salary, and got good, young players who are a good ways from arbitration in return.

I'm in agreement on this. Trading Cabrera was the right move, and getting someone to take Dontrelle Willis was awesome.

[philkid3]

No I am not going to hold it against ANY team that makes a transaction.

I am just doing that with Loria.

Okay, now I think you're biased.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

No I am not going to hold it against ANY team that makes a transaction.

I am just doing that with Loria. Like I said, he already ruined a franchise, and if the city of Miami would not have agreed in building him a stadium, this team might have ended the same.

Ok, I have a question. The Marlin's position has always been they can't draw fans because of the hot and humid weather during the summer and the inaccessibility of the Pro Player Stadium. If and when this new stadium for the Marlins is built will the fans start coming in droves? :shrug:

[dabigyankeeman]

The Marlins won a championship when they had money under Wayne Hizuenga, and they won a championship when had very little money under Jeffrey Loria. Thats pretty good. Inbetween, they have had some interesting teams that have had shots at the wild card. Thats a better legacy than many other teams have had in the last 50 (or more) years.

That said though, I do agree that there needs to be a salary floor that you cant go under. It would make it better for the fans, although the fans can go to the games to see the other teams. For instance, i have tickets to 3 Marlins games - the last 2 exhibition games this year which are in their regular stadium (Dolphin Stadium) against the Yankees, and opening day when they play the Mets. I cant wait!

Their new stadium will be in a horrible location, and they will need to build a new fan base from Miami as their current fan base is very strong north of Miami (Broward and West Palm Beach) and they are going to lose a lot of those people with this horrible location in a bad area with no good way to get there and no parking and narrow streets and low-class people. Miami is a front-runner town only anyway, if they win they will draw fans, if they dont, even a new park will be empty.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Ok, I have a question. The Marlin's position has always been they can't draw fans because of the hot and humid weather during the summer and the inaccessibility of the Pro Player Stadium. If and when this new stadium for the Marlins is built will the fans start coming in droves? :shrug:

That is exactly what I tried to say. Only a new stadium will not help the team draw many fans. The team itself has to improve, otherwise there will be more games with only 200 fans in the stands; also in this new stadium.



Their new stadium will be in a horrible location, and they will need to build a new fan base from Miami as their current fan base is very strong north of Miami (Broward and West Palm Beach) and they are going to lose a lot of those people with this horrible location in a bad area with no good way to get there and no parking and narrow streets and low-class people. Miami is a front-runner town only anyway, if they win they will draw fans, if they dont, even a new park will be empty.

I don't know if that will be the case here, but the last couple of years, the neighbourhoods where new stadiums have been built, have been upgraded too. So I expect that to happen with the new site as well.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Okay, now I think you're biased.

See, I told you. ;)

[dabigyankeeman]

That is exactly what I tried to say. Only a new stadium will not help the team draw many fans. The team itself has to improve, otherwise there will be more games with only 200 fans in the stands; also in this new stadium.

I don't know if that will be the case here, but the last couple of years, the neighbourhoods where new stadiums have been built, have been upgraded too. So I expect that to happen with the new site as well.

Yeah, but those stadiums were in America, not in a third world country which is what Miami has become. No prejudice here, just the truth. I live just north of Miami, and work in Miami, so I know whats going on here.

[spark240]

Is this what they mean by embarrassingly low attendance?

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii277/outfield-assist/marlinscrowd.jpg