Need Help - Fixing Stiff Front Arm Swing

[NewbieBBDad]

I don't know how I could have missed this. It seems my son has been swinging for the past year with a fully extended stiff front arm. It's even in these videos I posted some time ago:

3 Swings - Normal Playback Speed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7rvaICk7XA)

3 Overhead Swings in Slo-Mo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZCz6ypyZm4)

Notice how he's pushing the bat into the ball at contact (both arms extending into the ball [linear hitting anyone?!]). Worked with him hard yesterday to fix it but on live pitch practice nothing changed. And at batting practice he could not pull a single ball even though he's hitting it well in front of him. This looks like it's going to be a difficult muscle memory fix.

What do you guys suggest I do? I was thinking a lot of front one-arm drills to get him to flex it again. Also what to do about the pushing the bat into the ball? Thanks again all!

[Jake Patterson]

IMO and if I was in the cage with him I would first try a different bat. He seems to have some guy eye/hand coordination, but in several clips it appears as if the bat actually stops if forward movement at contact indicating that the bat may be way too light for him. If this is the case fixing other items may be premature. Make sense?

[Chris O'Leary]

Notice how he's pushing the bat into the ball at contact (both arms extending into the ball [linear hitting anyone?!]). Worked with him hard yesterday to fix it but on live pitch practice nothing changed. And at batting practice he could not pull a single ball even though he's hitting it well in front of him. This looks like it's going to be a difficult muscle memory fix.

What do you guys suggest I do? I was thinking a lot of front one-arm drills to get him to flex it again. Also what to do about the pushing the bat into the ball? Thanks again all!

I don't see a stiff front arm but I do see lots of disconnection. He hits the ball way out in front. He needs to wait for the ball to come to him rather than going to get it.

I also see what Jake sees in terms of the bat stopping at the POC.

[Mark H]

I don't see a stiff front arm but I do see lots of disconnection. .

Yes, this causes the bat speed problem that causes the bat stopping.



He hits the ball way out in front. He needs to wait for the ball to come to him rather than going to get it..

He can't...without fundamentally altering his swing. Using the arms to accelerate the bat he intuitively knows he needs time to accelerate the bat. Hitting the ball out in front gives him this time. In his world, with his understanding of how to accelerate the bat, letting the ball come deep is irrational. You might as well tell him ice cream tastes bad. He's going to think you are crazy on both counts...till you teach him a whole 'nuther way to swing the bat. Time for dad to send himself to school. I suggest starting with reading everything on the public side at Englishbey's site. If the money's not a problem, spring for the basic dvd. A whole new world will start opening up to you.

[Drill]

What is the bat size? It looks like its to heavy for him. Or somehow he can slow his swing down and still go through it in slo-mo.

What does his tee work look like?


drill


PS lol jake says bat may be lite, note i say the bat is to heavy,,,, Go with jake>>>> grin

[Jake Patterson]

jake says bat may be lite, note i say the bat is to heavy,,,, Go with jake>>>> grin
In looking at the bat hit the ball you see several things going on. Typically with young -good- hitters parents tend to undersize the bats from a weight standpoint in an effort to create bat speed. The problem with this is the force of the ball nears the opposing force of the bat and the impact hesitation we see may be an indication of a very light bat, a weak swing or both.
Jake

[NewbieBBDad]

The bat is heavy, it's a 30 inch -7. The reason for the recoil is I set the batting cage at 70 mph. (When I originally took the video the purpose was to see how many frames his swing is in a fastball situation, hence the 70 mph speed setting, I don't expect him to face 70 mph pitching at age 10. P.S. He has 5-6 frame swing, could probably be a frame less if he didn't stiff arm/push the bat.)

So please ignore the recoil effect. You have look closely to notice the stiff arming but that's why his rear arm looks so odd in coming around.

Mark is right that this will take a major workaround. Any thoughts on one-arm drilling to get his front arm to coil?

[Mark H]

How about the first major work over is dad's hitting education? Are you on Englishbey's site?

[Slapper23]

NewbieBBDad,

While you're at it, I recommend checking out HittingIllustrated.com, Batspeed.com, dryeagersbaseball.com and mikeepsteinhitting.com. If you're going to self-educate, and I highly recommend it, it pays to get multiple viewpoints. Picking Ted William's book, "The Science of Hitting" is a must do, as well.

Just make sure your world reflects what is happening in clips of MLB hitters - even this takes time to begin seeing what is going on. Opinions on this are highly variable, but if you keep an open mind on learning and are one to make up your own mind about things, you'll make big advances in not only your own knowledge but in the hitting progress of your son.

This is a fun and rewarding time for you and your son.

Mike

[Jake Patterson]

The bat is heavy, it's a 30 inch -7. The reason for the recoil is I set the batting cage at 70 mph. (When I originally took the video the purpose was to see how many frames his swing is in a fastball situation, hence the 70 mph speed setting, I don't expect him to face 70 mph pitching at age 10. P.S. He has 5-6 frame swing, could probably be a frame less if he didn't stiff arm/push the bat.)

So please ignore the recoil effect. You have look closely to notice the stiff arming but that's why his rear arm looks so odd in coming around.

Mark is right that this will take a major workaround. Any thoughts on one-arm drilling to get his front arm to coil? I think we see it from very different perspectives. The force of the ball hitting the bat is actually setting him back on his rear foot. I would have a hard time correcting anything else before this was addressed.

[BoardMember]

Classic textbook Epstein swing..............


I think we see it from very different perspectives. The force of the ball hitting the bat is actually setting him back on his rear foot. I would have a hard time correcting anything else before this was addressed.

[BoardMember]

He is up on his toe at contact, so I wouldn't worry about what is happening just after contact.

Swings 1 and 3 (especially 3) show much less recoil because the ball is much deeper at contact and the rear shoulder is still powering the swing.

In swing 2 the disconnection is so severe and his arms don't have the strength to overcome the collision.

Get him to stay connected or start juicing his arms with some "roids"....:dance

This is a classic "hips and hands" swing. He rotates his hips and "goes out to the ball" with his hands.....

When I get kids who disconnect this severely I work on the thought of hitting the ball with the rear shoulder rather then the hands..........

"Hips and Shoulders"...........The hands will do what they must do based on rotational momentum and location........







Classic textbook Epstein swing..............

[Jake Patterson]

can you provide a clip by clip?

[BoardMember]

If you mean me Jake, I can't convert YouTube to a video file.

Here he is at contact:




can you provide a clip by clip?

[Drill]

Classic textbook Epstein swing..............

I love how you bring the gasoline and matches with you to a little get together. This should be good for at least 6 pages.


love always,

drill

[BoardMember]

I just calls 'em the way I sees 'em.......:dance

Classic Epstein:




I love how you bring the gasoline and matches with you to a little get together. This should be good for at least 6 pages.


love always,

drill

[NewbieBBDad]

I just calls 'em the way I sees 'em.......:dance

Classic Epstein
Hehe, well since my son can't seem to follow my instructions at least he can be a poster boy for someone else's technique.

[Drill]

Hehe, well since my son can't seem to follow my instructions at least he can be a poster boy for someone else's technique.

Well some may say that is good,:debate:some may say that is bad.


What does his tee work look like, does he look like the video doing tee work?


drill

[Jake Patterson]

Hehe, well since my son can't seem to follow my instructions at least he can be a poster boy for someone else's technique.Don't get too worried about this. We all go through this. What more important than the instruction is the time spent together...

Now back to baseball..

[Jake Patterson]

Maybe this will help... The other little guy is about 7-8 in this pic.



maybe it's the way I teach.... but- If the batter is using the wrong tools it is difficult to impart any meaningful change or comment. I would begin by changing the bat to something more suitable for a 10 y/o.

Another key item to keep in mind is the developmental process is different for everyone, both mentally and physically.

This always seems to be the time of year when dads get especially frustrated because Jr. - when compared against other more talented children doesn't stack up. First and foremost he's ten. If he can scratch his butt while talking he's ahead of the curve (Comment meant for all dads)

[1chapterahead]

70 mph, 23oz bat and 10U... When I take all of that into consideration, he looks pretty darn good. Let him get his reps and timing down, with a few tweaks here and there I'm sure he'll be fine.

[NewbieBBDad]

maybe it's the way I teach.... but- If the batter is using the wrong tools it is difficult to impart any meaningful change or comment. I would begin by changing the bat to something more suitable for a 10 y/o.

70 mph, 23oz bat and 10U... When I take all of that into consideration, he looks pretty darn good. Let him get his reps and timing down, with a few tweaks here and there I'm sure he'll be fine.
Jake, I have to scratch my head on the bat comment. What bat would you put a 10 y/o. in? If he can swing a -7 bat in 5.5 frames why go lighter? I mean there's no recoil on 60 mph or slower pitching.


Jake, the pic is great - a perfect example of how I want my son's arms to swing.


This always seems to be the time of year when dads get especially frustrated because Jr. - when compared against other more talented children doesn't stack up.
Well, that's not the case here. The irony is he still hits it harder than the other kids, nearly 200 ft on a line. But as we all know, his swing has a serious flaw and he could hit harder if only I can figure out how to help him fix it. :(

It's my fault I overlooked the flaw because he was powering a lot of shots. But I will tell you what really frustrates me as a dad is I've taught him to swing short with arms curled/flexed all this time yet my son has morphed into a stiff-armer. (I mean seriously, how does my kid do the exact opposite, LOL!) So to answer Drill's question I'm afraid he looks better at the Tee but in live pitch/batting cage he reverts to stiff arming. ARGH!

[Jake Patterson]

Not sure what to tell you. I offered where I would start. A 30" - 23 oz bat for a 10 y/o seems a bit much, but I am not there seeing it live. If you want to fix the arm problem I would set up a bag and have him rotate while staying connected into the point of impact and see if that helps. Use the bag as a target instead of a live ball. I would also slow the pitches down. I am not certain what benefit there is zinging them at 70 brings. Sometimes moving backwards i.e. live pitching ---> Tee work ---> hitting a static target helps.

[Drill]

Jake, I have to scratch my head on the bat comment. What bat would you put a 10 y/o. in? If he can swing a -7 bat in 5.5 frames why go lighter? I mean there's no recoil on 60 mph or slower pitching.


Jake, the pic is great - a perfect example of how I want my son's arms to swing.


Well, that's not the case here. The irony is he still hits it harder than the other kids, nearly 200 ft on a line. But as we all know, his swing has a serious flaw and he could hit harder if only I can figure out how to help him fix it. :(

It's my fault I overlooked the flaw because he was powering a lot of shots. But I will tell you what really frustrates me as a dad is I've taught him to swing short with arms curled/flexed all this time yet my son has morphed into a stiff-armer. (I mean seriously, how does my kid do the exact opposite, LOL!) So to answer Drill's question I'm afraid he looks better at the Tee but in live pitch/batting cage he reverts to stiff arming. ARGH!

I would tell him that he would need to do some one arm swings off the tee and eat plenty of Ice Cream after each work out.

Find a real short bat that he can use for front side drill and back side. Than after that set the ball in perfect position on the tee and tell him to hit line drive to the back of the net holding the bat with two hands. Please make sure he does not get to mechanical, well being mechanical on the tee is alright because you are reteaching muscle memory in the one arm drills, but after that have him take full swing off the tee, than do some L screen pitching to him. Than if he has not bruised you up to bad go get plenty of Ice Cream or Pizza, some of those pizza places have medicinal drink aids there, have you wife drive.


I am going to do some tee work myself right now.


drill

[NewbieBBDad]

Upon review of more video I am beginning to think my son's upper body is a perfect linear swing, LOL! Hands to the ball and all!

Maybe this is the time I have him start hitting lefty, hehe. His mechanics are so deeply engrained now...

[wogdoggy]

looks like a great kid,,wish mine were that young again..enjoy while you can!!!!:highfive:

[NewbieBBDad]

looks like a great kid,,wish mine were that young again..enjoy while you can!!!!:highfive:
Thanks wogdoggy.

Took a look at Mike Epstein's site. Gosh my son's swing does look like some of his kids, stiff front arm, etc. Only lower body seems to be rotational, the rest, especially his pics of staying on plane with the ball seem pretty linear to me.

I might just leave my son the way he is for the season, he's still hitting it hard. I'll just try and get him to keep his front arm flexed for more power. Even if he regresses he'll still be able to smack em up the middle.

[Mark H]

I'll just try and get him to keep his front arm flexed for more power. Even if he regresses he'll still be able to smack em up the middle.

It's not about more power it's about being quick and efficient. But relax, he's young and you don't have to change everything tomorrow. Work on your own understanding for now and let him enjoy the season since he's hitting successfully. That gives you a few months to start your education and then you can begin to teach him how to be more efficient a little at a time. Start with Steve's site.