LaRussa stands by McGwire

[White Knight]

God Bless you, Tony. Perhaps with more vocal support like yours we can stop this witch hunt and rightfully elect this great man to the HOF. Baseball was a far more interesting sport with him around.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/41258

[Old Sweater]

God Bless you, Tony. Perhaps with more vocal support like yours we can stop this witch hunt and rightfully elect this great man to the HOF. Baseball was a far more interesting sport with him around.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/41258

This is the witch hunt that has made me most curious then the others to see if the high moral BBWAA writers would have voted McGwire in on the 1st ballot because of his other average stats of his career.

[dl4060]

This is the witch hunt that has made me most curious then the others to see if the high moral BBWAA writers would have voted McGwire in on the 1st ballot because of his other average stats of his career.

Which 'average' stats are you referring to? His OBP and SLG were far above average. Yes, his BA was right around the league average, but take away his testimony(or lack thereof) and he is clearly a first ballot guy.

[philkid3]

I saw this part at Lone Star Ball and was quite litteraly lolling:

"Wait a minute, Tony. You still don't believe McGwire used performance-enhancing drugs?"

"Absolutely not."

"Come on."

"Absolutely not," he said. "If you see Mark today, he still looks like he did then."

"No, he doesn't," I said.

"Yes, he does," La Russa said.

"No, he doesn't," I repeated.

La Russa tossed his hands in the air and looked at me in frustration. "Are you asking for my opinion or yours?" he said.

"I'm asking your opinion," I said. "But we're having a conversation, and I'm disagreeing with you."

[BoweryBoys]

First I must say that I have been a Cardinals fan for over 40 years. (My nickname here comes from my love of the Leo Gorcey/Huntz Hall Comedy films of the 1940s and 50s and has nothing to do with New York or the Yankees, I have only been to NY once before)

Having written about how I have lived and loved Cardinals red for over 40 years I must say that Tony LaRussa is a disgrace to MLB and a great example of the "good ole boy" "closed shop" arrogance mentality that permeates the modern era game. If McGwire ever gets anywhere near the HOF, except by buying an admission ticket, that just may be the day that I finally just lose all interest in this increasingly corrupt and arrogant professional sports league called MLB. I know some other Cardinals fans who feel the exact same way too, about LaRussa and McGwire.

[Old Sweater]

Which 'average' stats are you referring to? His OBP and SLG were far above average. Yes, his BA was right around the league average, but take away his testimony(or lack thereof) and he is clearly a first ballot guy.

I dunno, there was some debate about if his 583 HR's would be the auto shoo in as it was before.

1626 hits in 16 seasons/ 1414 RBI's/ .263 BA/ 1167 runs scored

These stats really don't jump out at you.

[Brian McKenna]

The complicit exonerating the accused??

[Mattingly]

Tony LaRussa may be the only person in St Louis (or all of Missouri, from what I've heard) who believes that McGwires didn't use any PEDs. I don't see how anybody could be so guillible that he wouldn't even suspect anything.

LaRussa denies that McGwire used anything and Torre practically dismisses suggestions that Clemens used also. Could this be about not willing to believe (or at least consider) suspicions of PED usage that many strongly suspect? Or would this be that their own legacy may be tainted if they were found to be merely "looking the other way" when the lockerroom was grounds for illegal substances?

[philkid3]

Nevermind, forgot my policy of not replying to certain people.

[MyDogSparty]

LaRussa has to stick to his story that McGwire is clean. He knows the truth on PEDs in the Bay area and BALCO. He managed Canseco, McGwire and Giambi in Oakland. He's wanted Bonds in St. Louis for the last 2 or 3 seasons. He knew what was going on and he was willing to look the other way. He can't change his story now.

[White Knight]

First I must say that I have been a Cardinals fan for over 40 years. (My nickname here comes from my love of the Leo Gorcey/Huntz Hall Comedy films of the 1940s and 50s and has nothing to do with New York or the Yankees, I have only been to NY once before)

Having written about how I have lived and loved Cardinals red for over 40 years I must say that Tony LaRussa is a disgrace to MLB and a great example of the "good ole boy" "closed shop" arrogance mentality that permeates the modern era game. If McGwire ever gets anywhere near the HOF, except by buying an admission ticket, that just may be the day that I finally just lose all interest in this increasingly corrupt and arrogant professional sports league called MLB. I know some other Cardinals fans who feel the exact same way too, about LaRussa and McGwire.

I couldn't disagree with you more. A part of me wants to leave baseball (of course I won't though) if he doesn't get in, and fast. Enhanced or not, he hit 70 HR's and 50-plus four years in a row. How many juice bags you know who did that? Only one other person hit 70+, and no one hit 50 four times in a row. He worked his ass of in that gym six days a week. Much more than you can say for Canseco, who was in and out of the gym in less than an hour.

[StanTheMan]

I couldn't disagree with you more. A part of me wants to leave baseball (of course I won't though) if he doesn't get in, and fast. Enhanced or not, he hit 70 HR's and 50-plus four years in a row. How many juice bags you know who did that? Only one other person hit 70+, and no one hit 50 four times in a row. He worked his ass of in that gym six days a week. Much more than you can say for Canseco, who was in and out of the gym in less than an hour.

And I know a bank robber who is better than all the other scumbags in the midwest. He plans out the best escape routes, hits the wealthiest banks only on the very best days by casing the joint better than all the other thieves combined. He hires the best to rob with him and his attention to detail is unsurpassed.

How many other bank robbers can do what he can, hard-core criminal or just casual thief? Yep, he's my favorite, that guy.

Some thieves just wander into any old place and rob it on a whim. My guy works hard at it. :noidea

[Old Sweater]

And I know a bank robber who is better than all the other scumbags in the midwest. He plans out the best escape routes, hits the wealthiest banks only on the very best days by casing the joint better than all the other thieves combined. He hires the best to rob with him and his attention to detail is unsurpassed.

How many other bank robbers can do what he can, hard-core criminal or just casual thief? Yep, he's my favorite, that guy.

Some thieves just wander into any old place and rob it on a whim. My guy works hard at it. :noidea

Was this bank robber in a state that condoned bank robbing for 40 years then made it illegal? Then conduct a witch hunt singling him out? By a corrupt cop who worked for the good ole boy system?

Does bank robbers have anything to do with the topic in discussion?

[StanTheMan]

On the contrary, the bank robber was robbing banks in a COUNTRY which had made bank robbing illegal... rendering the rules of the city or state moot.

I'm continuously amazed by the "yeah... he was probably on something, but he still hit X number of homers... how many other cheaters did that?" argument.

So, my favorite bank robber is the one who works the hardest at it.... he's the best of them all!!!!!

[White Knight]

And I know a bank robber who is better than all the other scumbags in the midwest. He plans out the best escape routes, hits the wealthiest banks only on the very best days by casing the joint better than all the other thieves combined. He hires the best to rob with him and his attention to detail is unsurpassed.

How many other bank robbers can do what he can, hard-core criminal or just casual thief? Yep, he's my favorite, that guy.

Some thieves just wander into any old place and rob it on a whim. My guy works hard at it. :noidea

That's the most rediculous and flat out stupid argument I've ever heard in all my life. Did that bank robber save baseball and become a national hero? What good did he do? Why am I even commenting on a kindergarden response?

I seriously wish steroids were 100% safe and over-the-counter so none of this would be an issue. Legalize it!

[Old Sweater]

I just wish the high moral fans that despise PED use so much would quit supporting it.

It is so widespread from what you read, you'd have to be throwing a blind eye at it, if you pay in any which way to watch MLB.

[spark240]

Did that bank robber save baseball and become a national hero? What good did he do?

McGwire (and Sosa) weren't necessary to "save" baseball. Baseball has overcome bigger problems than attendance slumps before, and in any event the post-'94 MLB attendance slump was hardly a threat to the future of the game. Indeed, the turn away from MLB contributed to a resurgence of minor-league attendance, which may be even more important for the long-term health of the game.

[KCGHOST]

Without his disastrous Congressional testimony McGwire would have cruised into the HoF.

As for LaRussa his own legacy is tied to these juicers. He has to defend them. And he may be in the camp with others, see White Knight above, that just doesn't care that players used PED's.

[White Knight]

McGwire (and Sosa) weren't necessary to "save" baseball. Baseball has overcome bigger problems than attendance slumps before, and in any event the post-'94 MLB attendance slump was hardly a threat to the future of the game. Indeed, the turn away from MLB contributed to a resurgence of minor-league attendance, which may be even more important for the long-term health of the game.

Sure, baseball would have become popular again anyway without them, no one's denying that. But it came back in popularity a lot sooner because of Mac and Sosa.

[BoweryBoys]

Sure, baseball would have become popular again anyway without them, no one's denying that. But it came back in popularity a lot sooner because of Mac and Sosa.

I don't think Stan The Man makes such a "kindergarden" argument. Actually I see his analogy as quite apt for the situation. Dillinger and Pretty Boy Floyd were considered great heroes by many during the depression but that didn't make what they were doing any less wrong or illegal.

McGwire, and any other grown intelligent man, who (may) have used steroids knew full well that they have been illegal in this country without valid doctor's prescription since about 1991. It really is not a legitimate excuse and not even a good rationalization that "baseball didn't care" or the old stale "everyone else was doing it".

As far as being only one fan, I love the game and its history just too much to accept players that decided to knowingly and willingly use illegal drugs in an (attempt) to gain an advantage for whatever reasons. I put it as (attempt) because to me the real issue is intention. It makes no difference whether steroids really help or not. A player would not take them, and continue to take them, unless he believed they gave him an advantage. To do so in a clandestine way with the obvious idea that they were going to be able to produce at a higher level then their natural talent allows... Well I will let others here decide if that is or isn't an obvious example of cheating much worse then just scuffing a baseball or corking a bat.

I, as just one fan, do not buy the save the game argument. McGwire and Sosa are given far too much credit for "saving the game". In fact it could be argued that their 1998 fiasco actually did the game more long term damage then good as it helped create this mess the game is in now. Of course Mac and Sosa do not deserve the only and sole blame for that. It could also be argued that the 98 season caused damage as it helped perpetuate the "chicks dig the long ball" sterotype that fills the seats with casual fans who really have no real understanding or appreciation of the game beyond just seeing a HR derby every game. I'm sorry but I just love the game too much to see it dumbed down to the lowest common denominator the way Selig and MLB seems to have been trying to do over the last ten years. I just think the game in itself was always just too perfect and great that it didn't need to be tinkered with in the first place. The game has always been too beautiful and great to need to be changed to appeal to a wider audience. That speaks of a poor modern audience not that the game as it had been for decades was suddenly not worthy of a modern audience.

I give Mac and Sosa no credit for saving the game, only helping to take away from the many things that make the game great and cause undue focus on one aspect of the game by turning it into a circus. Ironically a good example of the type of damage cased by PED use in the game. Besides, John Wilkes Booth changed and made history too but was what he did really a good thing. Changing history does not necessarily mean the particular acts in question were proper, good and noble. I see little nobility in someone using an illegal drug to take away someone else's rightful record and place in the history of the game.

[Old Sweater]

Without his disastrous Congressional testimony McGwire would have cruised into the HoF.



The Congressional hearing didn't have nothing to do with McGwire's chance at the HOF. His chance for the HOF was shot as soon as Canseco pointed a finger at him in his book as far as the BBWAA voters was concerned.

McGwire has never had a hot test and never has been found guilty of using a banned substance. It was just another witch hunt pointed at McGwire without no proof.

McGwire

Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers 'No,' he simply will not be believed; if he answers 'Yes,' he risks public scorn and endless government investigations.... My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself. I will say, however, that it remains a fact in this country that a man, any man, should be regarded as innocent unless proven guilty."


Darned if you do and darned if you don't for HOF players as far as the BBWAA voters are concerned. I myself find it gullible for anyone that thinks that these great baseball players aren't just the victims of a witch hunt to make MLB and the owners look like they are actually doing something about a problem they have condoned since the late 60's or early 70's and further back then that if you want to count amphetamines.

If they done a investigation of Selig he wouldn't fair no better then what all these great HOF players have had to go through. Why wasn't Congress concerned or involved when Selig and Reinsdorf got caught stealing 280mil from the players? That itself is stiff prison sentence if the feds get involved. At least I think so, fraud for 280mil?

[spark240]

McGwire and Sosa are given far too much credit for "saving the game". In fact it could be argued that their 1998 fiasco actually did the game more long term damage then good as it helped create this mess the game is in now.

Good point. Might we be thinking differently today of Bonds, had he not been consumed with jealousy for the adulation Mac and Sosa received in '98?

[Brian McKenna]

The Congressional hearing didn't have nothing to do with McGwire's chance at the HOF.

Of course it did!

[Brian McKenna]

I myself find it gullible for anyone that thinks that these great baseball players aren't just the victims of a witch hunt to make MLB and the owners look like they are actually doing something about a problem they have condoned since the late 60's or early 70's and further back then that if you want to count amphetamines.


It is also gullible to continually rant against the evils of management and decry the sad plight of the lowly ballplayer.

[BoweryBoys]

It is also gullible to continually rant against the evils of management and decry the sad plight of the lowly ballplayer.

Especially without there really being any meaningful proof, much less meaningful evidence, that any MLB players ever used steroids in the 60s or even knew they existed. Today it is different because it has become clear that at least some athletes have used steroids and even some have admitted to their use. We have today at least some amount of good reason to believe that some of these stat numbers are influenced by artificial drug enhancement, at least that those who did use did have a clear intention that they would gain some advantage. There is little good reason, at least right now, to think the same of players from the 60s so it seems a disingenuous argument to excuse modern steroid use by making a blanket assumption that players have been doing it since way back then.

I often wonder why some are so quick to defend MLB players as if the idea that some are not really as great as they may have seemed is just impossible to accept. When it is a player that there is no good reason to suspect, then I understand. But over recent months there has been much good reason to suspect that both Bonds and Clemens and probably McGwire too are really not as great as their carrier numbers would leave you to first believe. Some fans seem willing to scrutinize a myriad of carrier numbers for many players based on the era in which a player played, size of strike zones, higher mounds, ball parks, liveliness of ball, etc. This is very valid. Why do some then find it impossible to find validity in screening a modern players numbers through the prism of steroids when increasingly good reasons come to light to create some measure of doubt? My guess is that some are just unwilling to accept that certain players are truely not the greatest as they so want to believe.

Either way, the idea of "witch hunt" is so stale and over done and I'm willing to bet that most fans don't buy that argument for a minute. This has not been about huge numbers of players having unfounded accusations made against them without good reasons to suspect resulting in costing them their jobs or even lives. In Fact the whole claim of "witch hunt" in this discussion in regards to accusations against a few very rich MLB players is not only an insult to the intelligence but also an insult to real-life victims of witch hunts and blacklists throughout American history.

[Old Sweater]

It is also gullible to continually rant against the evils of management and decry the sad plight of the lowly ballplayer.

And vice versa for me.

When did the HOF victims of a witch hunt become a lowly ballpayer? No MLB player is lowly to me. Now the one's that aren't as skilled and have nothing to lose do get their hand slapped and are forced to say the "I'm sorry I got caught" spill with no genuine remorse to satisfy all the high moral fans that continue to support the PED players they despise.

You'd probably enjoy what was in Willie Mays "Red Juice" if they dug up some ancient evidence or a old player who ratted him out.

[StanTheMan]

The Hall of Fame is NOT a court of law, and the writers do NOT need "beyond a reasonable doubt." Nor should they.

The Hall is a permanent, elected, honor, and deserves the utmost attention, as it is the highest honor is the game most woven into the fabric of this great nation. That said, the implied vote for a writer is a "no" vote.... Your ballot begins empty, and you ADD names to it.... the "yes" votes. Do nothing, and it's a "no" for the player automtically.

Therefore it is up to the player to change the implied "no" to a "yes" through his performance on the field, as well as off the field. Campaigning, timing, years on the ballot, etc play a factor as well.

McGwire is about 25% electable right now, with what we suspect, what he has said, and what we know (including the NY Times article linking McGwire to "hard core steroids.)

Anyone who still views him as a "hero to America" is wearing blinders as big as McGwires chemically enhanced biceps.

I was in attendance the night Cal Ripken tied and broke Lou Gherig's record. Looking back, THAT did more to bring baseball back into the spotlight after the 1994 WS fiasco than anything that happened in 1998, imo.

[White Knight]

I don't think Stan The Man makes such a "kindergarden" argument. Actually I see his analogy as quite apt for the situation. Dillinger and Pretty Boy Floyd were considered great heroes by many during the depression but that didn't make what they were doing any less wrong or illegal.

McGwire, and any other grown intelligent man, who (may) have used steroids knew full well that they have been illegal in this country without valid doctor's prescription since about 1991. It really is not a legitimate excuse and not even a good rationalization that "baseball didn't care" or the old stale "everyone else was doing it".

As far as being only one fan, I love the game and its history just too much to accept players that decided to knowingly and willingly use illegal drugs in an (attempt) to gain an advantage for whatever reasons. I put it as (attempt) because to me the real issue is intention. It makes no difference whether steroids really help or not. A player would not take them, and continue to take them, unless he believed they gave him an advantage. To do so in a clandestine way with the obvious idea that they were going to be able to produce at a higher level then their natural talent allows... Well I will let others here decide if that is or isn't an obvious example of cheating much worse then just scuffing a baseball or corking a bat.

I, as just one fan, do not buy the save the game argument. McGwire and Sosa are given far too much credit for "saving the game". In fact it could be argued that their 1998 fiasco actually did the game more long term damage then good as it helped create this mess the game is in now. Of course Mac and Sosa do not deserve the only and sole blame for that. It could also be argued that the 98 season caused damage as it helped perpetuate the "chicks dig the long ball" sterotype that fills the seats with casual fans who really have no real understanding or appreciation of the game beyond just seeing a HR derby every game. I'm sorry but I just love the game too much to see it dumbed down to the lowest common denominator the way Selig and MLB seems to have been trying to do over the last ten years. I just think the game in itself was always just too perfect and great that it didn't need to be tinkered with in the first place. The game has always been too beautiful and great to need to be changed to appeal to a wider audience. That speaks of a poor modern audience not that the game as it had been for decades was suddenly not worthy of a modern audience.

I give Mac and Sosa no credit for saving the game, only helping to take away from the many things that make the game great and cause undue focus on one aspect of the game by turning it into a circus. Ironically a good example of the type of damage cased by PED use in the game. Besides, John Wilkes Booth changed and made history too but was what he did really a good thing. Changing history does not necessarily mean the particular acts in question were proper, good and noble. I see little nobility in someone using an illegal drug to take away someone else's rightful record and place in the history of the game.

It's a bad comparisment because the bank robber (while very good at what he does) is not a national hero with fans and didn't make something legal (baseball) regain popularity again. Bank robbing has always been illegal. Mac was in baseball, a legal thing, and may have taken steroids (an illegal thing). What was the bank robber doing legal? Horrible comparisment, just awful.

[White Knight]

I don't think Stan The Man makes such a "kindergarden" argument. Actually I see his analogy as quite apt for the situation. Dillinger and Pretty Boy Floyd were considered great heroes by many during the depression but that didn't make what they were doing any less wrong or illegal.

McGwire, and any other grown intelligent man, who (may) have used steroids knew full well that they have been illegal in this country without valid doctor's prescription since about 1991. It really is not a legitimate excuse and not even a good rationalization that "baseball didn't care" or the old stale "everyone else was doing it".

As far as being only one fan, I love the game and its history just too much to accept players that decided to knowingly and willingly use illegal drugs in an (attempt) to gain an advantage for whatever reasons. I put it as (attempt) because to me the real issue is intention. It makes no difference whether steroids really help or not. A player would not take them, and continue to take them, unless he believed they gave him an advantage. To do so in a clandestine way with the obvious idea that they were going to be able to produce at a higher level then their natural talent allows... Well I will let others here decide if that is or isn't an obvious example of cheating much worse then just scuffing a baseball or corking a bat.

I, as just one fan, do not buy the save the game argument. McGwire and Sosa are given far too much credit for "saving the game". In fact it could be argued that their 1998 fiasco actually did the game more long term damage then good as it helped create this mess the game is in now. Of course Mac and Sosa do not deserve the only and sole blame for that. It could also be argued that the 98 season caused damage as it helped perpetuate the "chicks dig the long ball" sterotype that fills the seats with casual fans who really have no real understanding or appreciation of the game beyond just seeing a HR derby every game. I'm sorry but I just love the game too much to see it dumbed down to the lowest common denominator the way Selig and MLB seems to have been trying to do over the last ten years. I just think the game in itself was always just too perfect and great that it didn't need to be tinkered with in the first place. The game has always been too beautiful and great to need to be changed to appeal to a wider audience. That speaks of a poor modern audience not that the game as it had been for decades was suddenly not worthy of a modern audience.

I give Mac and Sosa no credit for saving the game, only helping to take away from the many things that make the game great and cause undue focus on one aspect of the game by turning it into a circus. Ironically a good example of the type of damage cased by PED use in the game. Besides, John Wilkes Booth changed and made history too but was what he did really a good thing. Changing history does not necessarily mean the particular acts in question were proper, good and noble. I see little nobility in someone using an illegal drug to take away someone else's rightful record and place in the history of the game.

It's a bad comparisment because the bank robber (while very good at what he does) is not a national hero with fans and didn't make something legal (baseball) regain popularity again. Bank robbing has always been illegal. Mac was in baseball, a legal thing, and may have taken steroids (an illegal thing). What was the bank robber doing legal? Horrible comparisment, just awful.

And they did save the game. The average fan doesn't care about steroids, just hardcore baseball fans and old guys. I'd take 1998 over today anyday. I wish Sosa would hit 66 again this year, it would be my dream, juiced or not.

[White Knight]

I was in attendance the night Cal Ripken tied and broke Lou Gherig's record. Looking back, THAT did more to bring baseball back into the spotlight after the 1994 WS fiasco than anything that happened in 1998, imo.

I doubt it, although it was up there too. Cal certainly was a popular fellow and role model though. Great guy, I almost feel bad for cursing him out every day in the mid 90's when he broke my idol's record.

I still think the casual fan is more interested in HR's. 1998 was all over the news, it was HUGE. Yankee team always in the news too.

[Los Bravos]

The Congressional hearing didn't have nothing to do with McGwire's chance at the HOF. His chance for the HOF was shot as soon as Canseco pointed a finger at him in his book as far as the BBWAA voters was concerned.I don't think that's true at all. He would have had a smallish cloud over him, going back to the Andro discovery, but if he had made a forceful denial, especially with (as you note) no failed test and (unlike Palmeiro) no chance to get nailed with one in the future, I think the large majority of the writers would have extended him the benefit of the doubt.

He tried to split the difference and instead of making everyone happy, he made most everyone angry, or at least suspicious.

I feel rather bad for the man because I always liked him and liked watching him play. He's a far better person, who has had a far more positive effect on people, than Clemens and he's conducted himself in retirement in a way that I rather admire. Rather than throw a months-long conniption like Clemens, he's moved on with his life and (apparently) accepted his dimninished role in the game with a relatively good deal of grace and dignity.

[philkid3]

I don't think that's true at all. He would have had a smallish cloud over him, going back to the Andro discovery, but if he had made a forceful denial, especially with (as you note) no failed test and (unlike Palmeiro) no chance to get nailed with one in the future, I think the large majority of the writers would have extended him the benefit of the doubt.

He tried to split the difference and instead of making everyone happy, he made most everyone angry, or at least suspicious.

I feel rather bad for the man because I always liked him and liked watching him play. He's a far better person, who has had a far more positive effect on people, than Clemens and he's conducted himself in retirement in a way that I rather admire. Rather than throw a months-long conniption like Clemens, he's moved on with his life and (apparently) accepted his dimninished role in the game with a relatively good deal of grace and dignity.

Rick Riley wrote an article damning McGwire's appearance before congress, and wrote in his book about how painful that was because of how much he loved McGwire and felt he was one of the nicest and most intelligent baseball players he'd ever met.

[StanTheMan]

I feel rather bad for the man because I always liked him and liked watching him play. He's a far better person, who has had a far more positive effect on people, than Clemens and he's conducted himself in retirement in a way that I rather admire. Rather than throw a months-long conniption like Clemens, he's moved on with his life and (apparently) accepted his dimninished role in the game with a relatively good deal of grace and dignity.


Don't forget his proclamation that he was willing to do "whatever it takes" to help "eliminate the problem of steroids for the youth of America."

Since then, his more than 500 days of inactivity speaks loudly to me.......

[White Knight]

I don't think that's true at all. He would have had a smallish cloud over him, going back to the Andro discovery, but if he had made a forceful denial, especially with (as you note) no failed test and (unlike Palmeiro) no chance to get nailed with one in the future, I think the large majority of the writers would have extended him the benefit of the doubt.

He tried to split the difference and instead of making everyone happy, he made most everyone angry, or at least suspicious.

I feel rather bad for the man because I always liked him and liked watching him play. He's a far better person, who has had a far more positive effect on people, than Clemens and he's conducted himself in retirement in a way that I rather admire. Rather than throw a months-long conniption like Clemens, he's moved on with his life and (apparently) accepted his dimninished role in the game with a relatively good deal of grace and dignity.

I agree with you. Even if he did do steroids, he should have lied and told them no. Lying to the government, while perjury, is fine morally with me. The government lies to us daily, so give them a taste of their own medicine.

[StanTheMan]

Lying to the government, while perjury, is fine morally with me. The government lies to us daily, so give them a taste of their own medicine.

And yet a clear example of how many people glorify criminals and cheaters (PED users are BOTH, as possession is illegal) through the use of the best thief being one's favorite, incites your wrath?

Interesting.

Lying to the government is morally fine with you. I simply cannot comprehend that statement.

I am more than supportive of the governments ability to line up each and every suspected PED user and ask them any question they want. Bonds and Clemens may very well be in a perjury mess, as well as Tejada.

Fine with me. Lock em up like any other perjurer if they are indeed found guilty.

I'm NOT is support of the gov't taking over each and every high profile problem in this country, but Lord knows MLB was doing such a FINE job of policing the PED problem themselves, and the union is ever so keen to eliminate PED's from the game, lol.

[spark240]

I was in attendance the night Cal Ripken tied and broke Lou Gherig's record. Looking back, THAT did more to bring baseball back into the spotlight after the 1994 WS fiasco than anything that happened in 1998, imo.

I doubt it, although it was up there too. Cal certainly was a popular fellow and role model though. Great guy, I almost feel bad for cursing him out every day in the mid 90's when he broke my idol's record.

Good point, Stan.

Ripken was getting long standing ovations in road parks in 1995, including Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park, never mind the frenzy around Baltimore. The whole thing got massive media coverage. WK, if you were "cursing out" Cal, you were in a distinct minority.

[Skin & Bones]

I don't think that's true at all. He would have had a smallish cloud over him, going back to the Andro discovery, but if he had made a forceful denial, especially with (as you note) no failed test and (unlike Palmeiro) no chance to get nailed with one in the future, I think the large majority of the writers would have extended him the benefit of the doubt.

No way, and that actually has a lot to do with Barry Bonds. If Balco never became news, Mcgwire would have been a hall of famer easily. When there was a large percentage of people who suspected Bonds of using steroids, Mcgwire and Sosa started facing scrutiny. I'm not saying it's Bonds fault, but the whole BALCO mess for some reason made Mcgwire and Sosa seem more guilty to the public. Even if Mcgwire denied it the way Clemens did, he still would of been widely believed to have been a steroid user. His stats and body structure didn't help either. Now Palmerio on the other-hand was given the benefit of the doubt because he didn't have that "size" that people associate with steroid use, and he never had any Monster seasons - Just a long Eddie Murray type career.

[cardsfanatic]

I know some other Cardinals fans who feel the exact same way too, about LaRussa and McGwire.

Don't include me in that list. Besides, the MLB has been corrupt for _years_. Long before steroids and Balco were a blip on the radar. If you want to watch baseball in it's pure form, go watch a T-Ball game or something. Anything with this amount of money streaming into it is a prime target for corruption. Just the way it is. Big Business, the Government, Sports, Gambling/Vegas etc... when there's big money at stake, corruption sure seems to find it's way into the mix. So, either live with it like the rest of us or quit watching.

[cardsfanatic]

Tony LaRussa may be the only person in St Louis (or all of Missouri, from what I've heard) who believes that McGwires didn't use any PEDs. I don't see how anybody could be so guillible that he wouldn't even suspect anything.

LaRussa denies that McGwire used anything and Torre practically dismisses suggestions that Clemens used also. Could this be about not willing to believe (or at least consider) suspicions of PED usage that many strongly suspect? Or would this be that their own legacy may be tainted if they were found to be merely "looking the other way" when the lockerroom was grounds for illegal substances?

How about simply standing by a friend? If my friend said "I didn't run that stop sign", for example, I wouldn't rat him out if I knew otherwise. I don't know about some of you guys but I suspect you either A) don't have many friends or B) you don't practice what you preach. Because anyone who has close friends know that you carry a little baggage for them from time to time. That includes turning a blind eye and keeping your mouth shut. Within reason, obviously. If a close friend of mine killed someone, I would certainly rat them out for that. If they smoke weed or take some illegal substance, ehhhh, I'd just look the other way on that one.

[Los Bravos]

Just for the record, that was a practical suggestion on my part. I'm not really in favor of perjuring yourself. But as a practical matter, absent any physical evidence on McGwire, he could have had a situation in which it was ambiguous, at best.

It wouldn't even have been what Clemens' defenders tried to say his situation was, a "he said-he said", because in McGwire's case, there was no other "he", except Canseco, who was widely seen as a joke then. I think Mark had a reservoir of good will sufficient to get him over the top. On the other hand, they came down on him hard and fast after his testimony, so maybe I'm wrong.

The fact remains: most writers wanted to believe Bonds was guilty and hoped McGwire wasn't. And most of them treated the case against Clemens as if it had far less merit than it clearly did well before he made such a colossal fool of himself, making it essentially undeniable.

[White Knight]

And yet a clear example of how many people glorify criminals and cheaters (PED users are BOTH, as possession is illegal) through the use of the best thief being one's favorite, incites your wrath?

Interesting.

Lying to the government is morally fine with you. I simply cannot comprehend that statement.

I am more than supportive of the governments ability to line up each and every suspected PED user and ask them any question they want. Bonds and Clemens may very well be in a perjury mess, as well as Tejada.

Fine with me. Lock em up like any other perjurer if they are indeed found guilty.

I'm NOT is support of the gov't taking over each and every high profile problem in this country, but Lord knows MLB was doing such a FINE job of policing the PED problem themselves, and the union is ever so keen to eliminate PED's from the game, lol.

You can support the federal government all you want, it's your right to do so. But I HATE the federal government with a passion. In my eye the federal government are the real criminals, lying to us daily and spending my money on useless hearings. Who are they to decide what's legal? If someone wants to put PED's in their body, more power to them. We all should lie to the federal government, look what they do to us.

PS Note I said "federal"? I'm pro states-rights, just anti-federal. I'm a Ron Paul type if your wondering, NOT a liberal.

[White Knight]

Good point, Stan.

Ripken was getting long standing ovations in road parks in 1995, including Yankee Stadium and Fenway Park, never mind the frenzy around Baltimore. The whole thing got massive media coverage. WK, if you were "cursing out" Cal, you were in a distinct minority.

Nothing personal against Cal, he's a role model and great guy. But I did not want him to break that streak, and was hoping he's take a day off before he broke it. It bothered me when he did, and I certainly didn't cheer for him. I'd be disrespectful to Lou Gehrig, my idol, if I did.

[Old Sweater]

Nothing personal against Cal, he's a role model and great guy. But I did not want him to break that streak, and was hoping he's take a day off before he broke it. It bothered me when he did, and I certainly didn't cheer for him. I'd be disrespectful to Lou Gehrig, my idol, if I did.


Not really. Lou Gehrig IMO< would have tipped his cap to Ripken with the respect that he deserved. I'm sure that Lou Gehrig wouldn't mind if his fans done the same.

[White Knight]

Not really. Lou Gehrig IMO< would have tipped his cap to Ripken with the respect that he deserved. I'm sure that Lou Gehrig wouldn't mind if his fans done the same.

True, but I'm sure Lou would rather see his name in the record books than Cal's.

I want to clarify that I wanted Cal to take himself out of the lineup volintarily. I certainly wasn't rooting for him to get hurt or anything like that.

[Imgran]

You can support the federal government all you want, it's your right to do so. But I HATE the federal government with a passion. In my eye the federal government are the real criminals, lying to us daily and spending my money on useless hearings. Who are they to decide what's legal? If someone wants to put PED's in their body, more power to them. We all should lie to the federal government, look what they do to us.

PS Note I said "federal"? I'm pro states-rights, just anti-federal. I'm a Ron Paul type if your wondering, NOT a liberal.

Even Ron Paul would likely call this one a federal issue. Interstate commerce you know. I'm not sure he'd agree with the government stepping in but state governments dealing with a national "corporation" like MLB would be practically impotent without the feds.

What this comes down to is, if you have any suspicion that someone cheated, nnone of their numbers are trustworthy, before or after the discovered instance of cheating, if for no other reason than you don't know how long they were doing before they were caught.

[White Knight]

Even Ron Paul would likely call this one a federal issue. Interstate commerce you know. I'm not sure he'd agree with the government stepping in but state governments dealing with a national "corporation" like MLB would be practically impotent without the feds.

What this comes down to is, if you have any suspicion that someone cheated, nnone of their numbers are trustworthy, before or after the discovered instance of cheating, if for no other reason than you don't know how long they were doing before they were caught.

Ron Paul would never call hearings. While Ron Paul's government may not make PED's legal, he certaily would certainly decrimialize them. Even with the current laws, congress has no business getting involved.

Let's say me and you ran a steroids ring at a local gym. If we got busted, that would be it. Maybe a little jail and a hefty fine, that's it. I guarantee we wouldn't be called before congress.

[StanTheMan]

Let's say me and you ran a steroids ring at a local gym. If we got busted, that would be it. Maybe a little jail and a hefty fine, that's it. I guarantee we wouldn't be called before congress.

Of course you wouldn't. Let's say you stole office supplies from work. Heck, let's say you stole ALL the office supplies. That might make the paper, or perhaps the evening news... locally, due to the uniqueness of the story. Lots of people take a few pens or a ream of paper, but ALL the supplies? :rofl:

Say a White House Staffer stole ALL the supplies and took them home. Do you think that it might make news on a bigger scale? Do you think it should? Yes..... and Yes, respectively.

Comparing ONE steroid ring at a local gym to BALCO, McGwire, Bonds etc is ridiculous.

[spark240]

Nothing personal against Cal, he's a role model and great guy. But I did not want him to break that streak, and was hoping he's take a day off before he broke it. It bothered me when he did, and I certainly didn't cheer for him. I'd be disrespectful to Lou Gehrig, my idol, if I did.

You know what Ripken said about Gehrig that year? A reporter suggested to Cal, how about taking a day off, one game short of Gehrig's record? As a gesture of respect? And Cal said (I paraphrase, don't have the exact quote), if I took off a day with that in mind, that would be saying that's what it was about, the record. And it was never about that. I'm just doing my job, same as he was, and I can only pay tribute to him by doing what he would have done. I keep playing.

[BoweryBoys]

It's a bad comparisment because the bank robber (while very good at what he does) is not a national hero with fans and didn't make something legal (baseball) regain popularity again. Bank robbing has always been illegal. Mac was in baseball, a legal thing, and may have taken steroids (an illegal thing). What was the bank robber doing legal? Horrible comparisment, just awful.

Yet it is clear and factual through study of the era of American history known as "the great depression" that many parts of the populace, especially in areas of the mid west and "dust bowl areas" considered many bank robbers to actually be national heroes. Many, such as those who lost their farms to foreclosure, considered the outlaws to be the "good guys" and the government the "bad guys" despite the fact that sometimes innocent people lost their lives due to the outlaw's actions. This I think is a mentality easy for you to understand as you have made your politics known and many of your comments in recent posts reflect a similar way of thinking.

To be this topic back to baseball, I think there is little "may have" left with McGwire and little reason to give him any benefit of the doubt. To bring this topic right back to the subject title, LaRussa's continued blind support of PED users is the same type of mentality as the depression era making heroes out of outlaws. Breaking the law is breaking the law, despite your political beliefs and how much you still want to like McGwire and/or LaRussa. Also your, "baseball a legal thing" argument is more "kindergarden" and invalid because you well know that steroid use without valid doctor's prescription for valid medical reason has been illegal in this country since 1991. It makes no difference whether baseball is a legal thing or not, simple facts. (footnote: Bank robbing was not made a federal crime until early in 1934 so those committing that act prior to that date were not committing a federal crime. Meanwhile, any MLB player using PEDs illegally post 1991 WAS committing a federal crime.)

Again to bring this back to baseball, I will never understand anyone who considers any MLB player a "national hero" as if they were Audie Murphy or Alvin York or even Dr. Jonas Salk. The bottom-line is that these guys are just baseball players and they come and go. Those that are also citizens of this country, like it or hate it, or who earn their living here playing baseball are also subject to the same rules and laws as anyone else. If they commit any crime, federal or otherwise, they are subject to the same prosecution and possible punishment as the rest of us "non heroes". I really don't see why some have a problem with that. If a MLB player wants to stay a "hero" and have his stats continue to be trusted and respected, then just don't use drugs that have been illegal since 1991, legal sport or not.

[BoweryBoys]

True, but I'm sure Lou would rather see his name in the record books than Cal's.

I want to clarify that I wanted Cal to take himself out of the lineup volintarily. I certainly wasn't rooting for him to get hurt or anything like that.

I'm not so sure about Gehrig rather seeing his name in the record books then Ripken. From everything I have ever read and studied regarding Lou Gehrig, he just may be the closest thing to an actual hero that MLB has ever produced. From everything I understand about the guy, if he was still around when Ripken broke his record, I doubt he would have been as petty, selfish, arrogant, and egotistical as many modern era players have proven to be.

[Anderson]

Come on...Tony was obviously drunk (again) during that conversation.

[BoweryBoys]

Nothing personal against Cal, he's a role model and great guy. But I did not want him to break that streak, and was hoping he's take a day off before he broke it. It bothered me when he did, and I certainly didn't cheer for him. I'd be disrespectful to Lou Gehrig, my idol, if I did.

But doesn't this smack of hypocracy and show selectivity about your feelings when it comes to the validity and sanctity of MLB records? From accounts that I have read, Roger Maris was also a role model of his time and considered by those who really knew him to be a great guy. Most certainly he was a "hero" to his widow and family and they cherished his record dearly. Yet it seems that McGwire breaking (possibly stealing) that record may be okay with you. You must have cheered for him and I'm willing to bet that HR number 62 didn't bother you in the least. Yet, from all known so far, there is much more reason to think that McGwire's "accomplishment" was tainted but, as yet, there is not much good reason to feel that Ripken's was tainted.

This type of thing is why I give no credit to those who continue to claim that steroids is no big deal in MLB and those of us fans who do care are on some kind of "moral high horse". I also think those who feel we ought to just "accept it" are those who don't just get the fact that some of us just love the game too much to have the same attitude about it as "the casual fan". The mere idea of the argument that some have made on this website, that McGwire "saved the game" because of all the casual fan interest and they would rather see homeruns, just points out the fact of the damage that PED use has done to the integrity of the game. McGwire and Sosa did not "save the game" in 98. If anyone saved anything it was Ripken before that. McGwire and Sosa just did their part to turn the game we love into a circus. Oh well, it doesn't bother me because I highly doubt that McGwire, and maybe Sosa too, will ever see the HOF unless they buy a ticket. I see no problem with that. You make your bed, you lay down in it.

[BoweryBoys]

Come on...Tony was obviously drunk (again) during that conversation.

I doubt it but I see the obvious humor. Somehow old TLR has proven himself over the years to be someone who doesn't really need alcohol to embarrass himself with some of the things he says and does, especially getting belligerent and self-righteous with reporters just doing their jobs while defending possible PED users. TLR seems to be one guy that doesn't need booze to act like the back end of a horse.

[BoweryBoys]

And vice versa for me.

When did the HOF victims of a witch hunt become a lowly ballpayer? No MLB player is lowly to me. Now the one's that aren't as skilled and have nothing to lose do get their hand slapped and are forced to say the "I'm sorry I got caught" spill with no genuine remorse to satisfy all the high moral fans that continue to support the PED players they despise.

You'd probably enjoy what was in Willie Mays "Red Juice" if they dug up some ancient evidence or a old player who ratted him out.


I think maybe there is some sarcasm here that you may have missed. Perhaps "lowly ballplayer" refers to those average players of average MLB talent that still makes more money in a single season then many working men make in a life time. Hard to feel like you have any meaningful connection with the average MLB player who is still a millionaire or can be if he saves and invests his money right. Of course what makes that possible is fan support so I easily understand the frustration of some who love the game and were increasingly sick and tired of the game's, and especially the union's, "mind you own business type attitude" that went on for too many years and would still be going on if it were not finally be exposed.

I guess those who feel that MLB players have no right to break laws just because they play a game are those "high moral fans" of which some in here speak almost constantly. Perhaps some of the "high moral fans" are the ones helping pay all those salaries for the priveledge of earning a good living playing ball.

However, many feel that "high moral fans" have no right to complain. The answer they are given is too just stop supporting the game. "High moral fans" of the nation it has become clear...you are no longer welcome and wanted. After decades of MLB history, and the many years one has been a personal fan, you no longer have the right to demand that the game you are supporting be worthy of your support. Nor does it seem that certain players have to follow the same laws that you are subject too because they can hit a ball really good or win a bunch of career games.

"No MLB player is lowly to me"??? I forgot, one making it into MLB automatically makes one a "hero" of fine upstanding moral character incapable of doing anything really meaningfully wrong. But oh wait I forget, Ty Cobb was a racist, Babe Ruth liked women, yada, yada ,yada. We all know how much worse these off field character flaws that had little to do with the on field integrity of the game were compared to the chemical assault on the record book of recent time. If no baseball player is lowly then I guess they must be the opposite, high and mighty examples of fine moral character. Oh but wait, I forget, "high morals" is something not to be admired and to be put down everytime.

Man the hypocracy among some fans on this board is really telling. Talk of some trainers having "ratted" players out makes modern MLB sound more like "The Sopranos". And this kind of talk is coming from those who put down "high moral fans". Oh well, we all know that Mr. McGwire and Mr. Bonds both "saved the game" that was totally dead and gone when they hit nine more, and twelve more, homeruns then any human being including Babe Ruth was ever able to hit before the year of 1998. We now have all those casual fans taking up all the seats and paying most of the record highest ticket prices. Thank you Mr. Bonds and Mr. McGwire, you are both truly great "heroes" and certainly not just "lowly ballplayers" we shpuld ticker tape parades everyday in your honor from this day forward.