Weighted Baseballs

[hhsperformance]

I have read numerous threads across the net relating to the PROS and CONS of WEIGHTED BALL THROWING.

There's quite a bit of disagreement between coaches, some claiming they'll cause injury and decreased performance, while other claim increases of 5 mph and more.

I am an Exercise Professional who has played at National Level in Australia and I'd like to share the science from the training world, so that you can each make up your own mind as a lot of the scientific articles used to back or discredit claims are often misquoted or not fully grasped.

First here's my personal take on WB training, explaination will follow.
4oz - Used for overspeed training
50z - regulation ball
6oz- Used for overload training
7-8oz - to be used in general conditioning work and preseason
9oz+ - to be avoided completely.

4oz - Overspeed training
Overspeed training is used extensively in the athletics world and it is one of the techniques employed by Ben Johnson during his 1985-88 dominance, setting a time (although enhanced) that took around 15 yrs to be matched.
By running on a track with a slight decline or by using resistance bands, the resistance on the athlete was decreased seeing greater speeds produced.
This is essential in increasing true speed.
Ask any good strength coach "Train slow, be slow"

The 'overspeed' used in throwing a 4oz ball allows the body's passive systems (ligaments/ joint capsules) to be exposed to greater angular velocities without the excessive strain (decreased load). This extra speed will overtrain the Type IIb muscle fibres (fast twitch) of the body, which is needed to continue increasing/ developing speed.

Now errors can be made by going too light in weight.
Think about running down a steep hill. There's a point where you can't run freely and you need to employ a braking mechanism to maintain balance. This is counterproductive as it will make the athlete slower, but upsetting running mechanics. Same holds true for overspeed training, no lighter that 4oz or a braking mechanism will be employed by the body which will dcrease velocity if used in training.

6oz ball - Overload training
Now for the muscular tissue/ tendons and ligaments to develop the necessary tissue tolerance, some form of overload needs to be employed. By increasing the weight, the athlete can now place load on the muscles of the shoulder girdle, without the accompanying increase in angular velocity stresses. When using the 6oz ball, no change in delivery or mechanics should occur. Any change in motor pattern is bad news for velocity, if a weighted ball necessitates any change in mechanics, it's too heavy for use.

Using the 4 and 6oz balls in bullpens, general throwing programs will help create both the strength and speed/power to increase velocity.

7-8oz ball - these can be employed as softballs, footballs etc are currently used in conditioning programs. Again no change in mechanics. Generally used during off/ preseason to condition the musculature of the shoulder without the high speeds of a 5oz ball.

9oz+
Most over the studies used to debunk the WB training theory entirely, used a ball of 10oz or more. This is a 100% increase in load and will in pretty much every case, alter mechanics when throwing.

The work of Schmidt and Janda showed in relation to motor performance learning that training a new skill takes between 200-300 repetitions before that motor pattern starts to develop. The bad news, to correct a faulty motor pattern takes between 3000-5000 repetitions to retrain the nervous system. That's why it's so hard to fix poor mechanics without repetition, and even then the athlete will often have muscular imbalances and range of motion issues at both the shoulder and hip which can make the process take even longer.

The more a motor pattern is rehearsed the easier it becomes to do, taking less nervous system energy than previously (for an example compare the nervous evergy needed to throw with your glove hand to your throwing hand)

The more rehearsed the motor sequence, the faster it will fire and the less energy it will use to complete. The body is amazing!


So here it is, in a nutshell from the strength and conditioning world, you can each make up your mind.

1. Science shows overspeed training works and is necessary in increasing muscular speed.

2. Science shows that muscles need to be overloaded for supercompensation to occur (for a muscle/ tendon to grow/ strengthen)

3. Science shows that poor reptitions of movement will upset the timing and recruitment of muscles in movement sequences, and lead to decreased performance.

4. Science shows that provided the motor pattern (movement) doesn't change, both the load and the speed can be manipulated without upsetting mechanics.


Would love to hear opinions on this information and any personal accounts as to how WB have worked or not worked in your training.

Andy

[kylebee]

Excellent post, and thank you very much.

[Dirtberry]

hhsperformance,

How much would you recommend for overload if the mechanic produced no injury?

[hhsperformance]

In terms of weight of ball or throwing volume (overload)?

[fastbal95]

hhsperformance,

6 oz is not enough to create a physiological response, in my opinion. 6 lbs would be enough. 12 lbs would definately do the job, as would 15. Right now I throw a 12 lb lead ball everyday 24 times. Previously, I threw a 10 lb ball 96 times a day, everyday for 60 straight days before I went up in weight to the 12 lb ball.

[Go Cardinals]

I use a 5oz, 6oz, 9oz, 12oz, 15oz, 16oz, 2.5lb, 5lb, 7.5lb, 10lb (don't use that one that much). I build up to the higher ones.

When I use these, I've never had problems, and it helps me throw harder.

How could I make a 4oz baseball?

[Charger567]

I use a 5oz, 6oz, 9oz, 12oz, 15oz, 16oz, 2.5lb, 5lb, 7.5lb, 10lb (don't use that one that much). I build up to the higher ones.

When I use these, I've never had problems, and it helps me throw harder.

How could I make a 4oz baseball?

You'll have to buy a 4 oz, I can't seem to find one. Let me know if you find a place. I have a 7-12 oz set coming in monday.

[Go Cardinals]

You'll have to buy a 4 oz, I can't seem to find one. Let me know if you find a place. I have a 7-12 oz set coming in monday.

Will do... Same applies to you, tell me if you find one.

[RobV]

How could I make a 4oz baseball?

You could take a tennis ball, cut a very small hole/slot in it with a utility knife, and then fill it with sand until you get the desired weight (you'll need a scale to weight it).

Then glue the hole shut and there you go...instant weighted ball.

[Go Cardinals]

You could take a tennis ball, cut a very small hole/slot in it with a utility knife, and then fill it with sand until you get the desired weight (you'll need a scale to weight it).

Then glue the hole shut and there you go...instant weighted ball.

Thanks... I'll do that, then tell you how it goes...

[Jon Doyle]

I think, in most cases, working with a weighted ball is a very slippery slope, especially in amateur pitchers who are still in developmental stages.

Mainly from the standpoint that it's extremely difficult to duplicate mechanics from pitch to pitch with a regulation ball, let alone a lighter or heavier ball. This can place the shoulder (in most cases an under-developed one) in a very compromising position.

And, as we know, most injuries are not acute so it's usually too late.

I certainly feel weighted balls can have their place, but in a very low number of pitchers, and certainly not high school age and below.

[Go Cardinals]

I think, in most cases, working with a weighted ball is a very slippery slope, especially in amateur pitchers who are still in developmental stages.

Mainly from the standpoint that it's extremely difficult to duplicate mechanics from pitch to pitch with a regulation ball, let alone a lighter or heavier ball. This can place the shoulder (in most cases an under-developed one) in a very compromising position.

And, as we know, most injuries are not acute so it's usually too late.

I certainly feel weighted balls can have their place, but in a very low number of pitchers, and certainly not high school age and below.

What if you can't play long toss for one reason or another that day... and you don't throw hard (40%), isn't that better than nothing?

[Jon Doyle]

What if you can't play long toss for one reason or another that day... and you don't throw hard (40%), isn't that better than nothing?
IMO, no...

What would that accomplish?

[Go Cardinals]

IMO, no...

What would that accomplish?

Using your arm...

[LAball]

Im not an Olympic Athlete, but I was a sprinter in HS and I hated overspeed training down hill. I felt I could easily fall if I went full speed. It also messed up my mechanics, because top speed is all about leg turn over, which is created by a high knees motion. I would think a lighter ball would change the mechanics to throwing, especially the eccentric load on the wrist for the flick motion and possible the eccentric load on the torso. Thus effecting your muscle memmory.

I think T-balls are a just more then 4 oz, but its soft.

[Jon Doyle]

There are plenty of other ways. My suggestion is stay away.

[Go Cardinals]

There are plenty of other ways. My suggestion is stay away.

and your suggestion is one I value, so I will...

[Charger567]

I have heard many opinions on weighted balls, but I'm going with my pitching coach who claims he went from 86-93 mph thanks to weighted balls.

[Jake Patterson]

I have heard many opinions on weighted balls, but I'm going with my pitching coach who claims he went from 86-93 mph thanks to weighted balls.
At 14 y/o use extreme caution. Just because your coach says it works brings nothing to the table.

[Charger567]

At 14 y/o use extreme caution. Just because your coach says it works brings nothing to the table.

What I was told was to take a 6 oz. (I could only find 7 oz.) ball and throw it up against a fence as hard as I could 15 times a day. I don't see how much 2 oz. would do to my arm; it's not like humans were designed to throw 5 oz. baseballs.

[Jon Doyle]

Your 14 and your coach told you to do that? IMO that is extremely unethical to recommend that...

Please don't look at it as "just 2 ounces"...look it as 40% heavier, which is significant and will alter your mechanics, even if it doesn't "feel" like it does.

[Dirtberry]

In terms of weight of ball or throwing volume (overload)?

hhsperformance,

In terms of ball weight and repetitions for overload "Sport specifically".

[Charger567]

Your 14 and your coach told you to do that? IMO that is extremely unethical to recommend that...

Please don't look at it as "just 2 ounces"...look it as 40% heavier, which is significant and will alter your mechanics, even if it doesn't "feel" like it does.

It sounds bad, but the place has been around for years and he tells everyone who asks him for advice on picking up velocity to do it; we haven't had any reports of injuries though. Also, the drill does not involve legs, just a twist of the body and with mostly hips and arms, which you would think is worse.

[Jon Doyle]

It sounds bad, but the place has been around for years and he tells everyone who asks him for advice on picking up velocity to do it; we haven't had any reports of injuries though. Also, the drill does not involve legs, just a twist of the body and with mostly hips and arms, which you would think is worse.
Exactly what I was afraid of.

[devilsadvocate]

You Marshall guys are wreckless and dangerous. You talk about throwing 5lb, 6lb and heavier balls yet nowhere in this thread have you explained doing so using Marshall mechanics. If some young kid reads your posts and tries throwing balls this heavy using traditional mechanics, he's gonna' hurt himself. This is just plain irresponsible!

[kylebee]

You Marshall guys are wreckless and dangerous. You talk about throwing 5lb, 6lb and heavier balls yet nowhere in this thread have you explained doing so using Marshall mechanics. If some young kid reads your posts and tries throwing balls this heavy using traditional mechanics, he's gonna' hurt himself. This is just plain irresponsible!

Uh, what? The OP never said anything about being a Marshall follower.

[wrstdude]

hhsperformance,

6 oz is not enough to create a physiological response, in my opinion. 6 lbs would be enough. 12 lbs would definately do the job, as would 15. Right now I throw a 12 lb lead ball everyday 24 times. Previously, I threw a 10 lb ball 96 times a day, everyday for 60 straight days before I went up in weight to the 12 lb ball.

You might want to expound upon this. Casual readers may get injured. I would refrain from just saying "go to MM's website" too. Just give a little insight as to how you were throwing these weighted balls and how much effort etc.

[fastbal95]

wrstdude,

I would be glad to, except that I am apparently "wreckless and dangerous".

Not even to mention the fact that Mike Marshall's program doesnt even work, so why would anyone bother to want to know how I can throw a 12lb ball everyday as hard as I can without any worry about injury?

It is not possible for your body to allow you to throw harder if your muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments are not strong enough to withstand the force required to throw at such speeds.

Mike Marshalls training program, that involves wrist weights and iron or lead balls enables the pitcher to train and maximally strengthen their muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments to be able to withstand the force required for that pitcher to throw as hard as his genetics will allow.

But apparently, those on this site who reject Marshall's teachings, I will leave them nameless, know far better than me, someone who is actually doing his program, and they know far better than Mike Marshall, the man who pitched 14 years in the ML's, owns a Cy Young award with numerous records for pitching longevity, and also holds a PhD in exercise physiology and kinesiology, even though they havent even tried his program. Show me someone who has the credentials that Mike Marshall has. You cannot. You wouldnt have someone who learned about surgery reading on the internet to operate on you. You would have someone who has graduated from Med School and gone through a residency program in a hospital. Yet with pitching this isnt the case, and people on here think that credentials mean nothing. How ignorant of them.

[devilsadvocate]

Uh, what? The OP never said anything about being a Marshall follower.

The original poster is not the one who mentioned throwing heavy balls so clearly that's not who I was talking about.

[devilsadvocate]

wrstdude,

I would be glad to, except that I am apparently "wreckless and dangerous".

Not even to mention the fact that Mike Marshall's program doesnt even work, so why would anyone bother to want to know how I can throw a 12lb ball everyday as hard as I can without any worry about injury?

It is not possible for your body to allow you to throw harder if your muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments are not strong enough to withstand the force required to throw at such speeds.

Mike Marshalls training program, that involves wrist weights and iron or lead balls enables the pitcher to train and maximally strengthen their muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments to be able to withstand the force required for that pitcher to throw as hard as his genetics will allow.

But apparently, those on this site who reject Marshall's teachings, I will leave them nameless, know far better than me, someone who is actually doing his program, and they know far better than Mike Marshall, the man who pitched 14 years in the ML's, owns a Cy Young award with numerous records for pitching longevity, and also holds a PhD in exercise physiology and kinesiology, even though they havent even tried his program. Show me someone who has the credentials that Mike Marshall has. You cannot. You wouldnt have someone who learned about surgery reading on the internet to operate on you. You would have someone who has graduated from Med School and gone through a residency program in a hospital. Yet with pitching this isnt the case, and people on here think that credentials mean nothing. How ignorant of them.

No, how ignorant of you. You are arguing something completely different from my point. Quit trying to turn this into something it's not. I made no comment about the validity or value of Marshall's teachings. My only point was that you slipped in some comments about throwing heavy balls without providing proper context and that left unknowing readers with something that might hurt them.

[wrstdude]

wrstdude,

I would be glad to, except that I am apparently "wreckless and dangerous".

Not even to mention the fact that Mike Marshall's program doesnt even work, so why would anyone bother to want to know how I can throw a 12lb ball everyday as hard as I can without any worry about injury?

It is not possible for your body to allow you to throw harder if your muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments are not strong enough to withstand the force required to throw at such speeds.

Mike Marshalls training program, that involves wrist weights and iron or lead balls enables the pitcher to train and maximally strengthen their muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments to be able to withstand the force required for that pitcher to throw as hard as his genetics will allow.

But apparently, those on this site who reject Marshall's teachings, I will leave them nameless, know far better than me, someone who is actually doing his program, and they know far better than Mike Marshall, the man who pitched 14 years in the ML's, owns a Cy Young award with numerous records for pitching longevity, and also holds a PhD in exercise physiology and kinesiology, even though they havent even tried his program. Show me someone who has the credentials that Mike Marshall has. You cannot. You wouldnt have someone who learned about surgery reading on the internet to operate on you. You would have someone who has graduated from Med School and gone through a residency program in a hospital. Yet with pitching this isnt the case, and people on here think that credentials mean nothing. How ignorant of them.

So it's kinda like, "Mr. Owl, how many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?"

The world may never know....

[fastbal95]

wrstdude,

To be able to throw a 6lb ball all the way up to a 15lb ball, one needs to follow MM teachings.

That is this:

The first drill we have is called the wronfoot slingshot drill

The second drill is called the wrongfoot loaded slingshot drill.

The third drill is called the wrongfoot pendulem swing drill.

The fourth drill is basically the full motion, the drop-out windup and the psuedotraditional windup. We are also mixing in a set-position and different variations of set positions.

To see what these drills look like and to read how they are done, you should go to mike marshall's website and read his book and watch his video. Im not going to write out everything because it would take me too long, and Im not going to copy and paste everything because the post would be much too long.

Basically, when we do these drills, these things happen:

1. Pendulem swing are arms straight back towards second base with our hand undernieth the ball.

2. Get our arms up to driveline height, before our glove foot lands.

3. Drive the ball in a straight line towards home plate, trying to get our arms inside of vertical when we drive them.

4. Pronate the release of all of our pitches.

5. Rotate over our glove foot, not our pitching foot.

[Dirtberry]

You Marshall guys are wreckless and dangerous. You talk about throwing 5lb, 6lb and heavier balls yet nowhere in this thread have you explained doing so using Marshall mechanics. If some young kid reads your posts and tries throwing balls this heavy using traditional mechanics, he's gonna' hurt himself. This is just plain irresponsible!

How many thousands of times do we have to say it, The difference between “Traditional mechanics and Crow-step Linear mechanics IS. Injuries. Marshall’s guys can throw 100’s of times more weight in resistance training for overload.
Children do not actively seek resistance training, I’m sure you have noticed that?

I’ll bet a Marshall trained pitcher could throw a grenade a lot farther than
A traditionally trained pitcher without injuring themselves or devilsadvocate.

[drmark]

I'm new here, but not to baseball or healthcare or academia.
I have read Dr. Marshall's work and it is as scientifically based as any pitching work out there. I have a private practice, and I also teach Anatomy and Physiology at a local college. In addition, I have been coaching baseball, specifically hitting and pitching, from LL to HS the past 20 years. So what I will say comes from "2 different schools of thought". All one needs to do is experience baseball at the ML level and you will see many different examples of hitting and pitching mechanics at work. Linear vs rotational, etc......
However, because a player has been taught by........., doesn't equate into success. Just as one hitter has success being more linear vs rotational, many successful pitchers have gone out over the years and make ML rosters with terrible mechanics. One thing is certain, pitchers, all ages, are getting hurt at alarming rates even with all the "pitch counts, situational specialists, limits in lower leagues, etc.... Guys like Warren Spahn, Nolan Ryan, etc.. would go out and throw from the time they were 8 years old and go balls out for the next 30 years without personal trainers, strength and conditioning coaches, etc... I feel the real preventive medicine begins at a younger age in regards to stabilizing, strengthening, and conditioning joint structure. Injury prevention begins before the growth plates of bones fuse. It is a combination of nutrition, throwing, strengthening, etc.... It also relys on an innate property that noone has control over. We have been given a body and health by God and there is not one thing that any trainer or coach can do if we are genetically pre disposed to certain conditions. I truely feel the repetetive trauma of pitching can be hazardous. However, I also feel the genetics aspect, along with previous sprains and strains and the effects that they have on developing joints, are the main cause.

[hawkiirock]

good point
You Marshall guys are wreckless and dangerous. You talk about throwing 5lb, 6lb and heavier balls yet nowhere in this thread have you explained doing so using Marshall mechanics. If some young kid reads your posts and tries throwing balls this heavy using traditional mechanics, he's gonna' hurt himself. This is just plain irresponsible!

[Charger567]

What makes weighted balls so dangerous exactly? Also, why haven't we had a history of injuries at my baseball academy?

[fastbal95]

Well, if pitchers get injured throwing a 5 ounce baseball, imagine what the "traditional" motion will do with a heavier object.

What size weights does your academy use?

[Charger567]

Well, if pitchers get injured throwing a 5 ounce baseball, imagine what the "traditional" motion will do with a heavier object.

What size weights does your academy use?

6 Ounces I think, we have a 4 that no one seems to use though.

[Pitcher1983]

Here's how i work with weighted balls:

I use a superweighted ball, 1.1 lb, then a 250 gr ball (1 time and 2/3 a normal baseball), then a super underweighted ball about 90 gr (a little more than the half of a baseball).
I don't perform the complete motion, i throw within segmented mechanics: frontal, lateral (the one that oleary calls the "ready position), and lateral with pendulum the arms and scapular loading.
Now i've put the weighted jacket (10 kgs) on, and i do the same drills with weighted jacket. Next week i'm going to perform weighted balls + weighted jacket on decline axis. I don't use the jacket with the underweighted ball, that i throw now on flat ground, and from next week on incline axis.
I throw the weighted balls less times than the underweighted, so i'm sure that i make a right amount of throws to improve armspeed after i've improved strenght.
I'm not changing my armslot, and i think that throwing full motion with weighted balls would not be both safer and effective. framed motion is the best option to me.
After i've completed all the workout about weighted-underweighted balls i toss with the baseball.
I'm feeling fine with my arm and the ball goes out of my hand mutch easier and faster even if i'm just doing playcatch easy, without any will to throw hard.
i do long toss twice a week, long distance on monday and short medium distance on thursday. Short bullpens quite everyday just for mechanics.
i noticed that using weighted jacket helps a lot with hips-shoulders separation.
I make also tubing exercises, medicine ball, weightlifting (light and fast), and a lot of run-pickups.

[Drill]

I'm new here, but not to baseball or healthcare or academia.
I have read Dr. Marshall's work and it is as scientifically based as any pitching work out there. I have a private practice, and I also teach Anatomy and Physiology at a local college. In addition, I have been coaching baseball, specifically hitting and pitching, from LL to HS the past 20 years. So what I will say comes from "2 different schools of thought". All one needs to do is experience baseball at the ML level and you will see many different examples of hitting and pitching mechanics at work. Linear vs rotational, etc......
However, because a player has been taught by........., doesn't equate into success. Just as one hitter has success being more linear vs rotational, many successful pitchers have gone out over the years and make ML rosters with terrible mechanics. One thing is certain, pitchers, all ages, are getting hurt at alarming rates even with all the "pitch counts, situational specialists, limits in lower leagues, etc.... Guys like Warren Spahn, Nolan Ryan, etc.. would go out and throw from the time they were 8 years old and go balls out for the next 30 years without personal trainers, strength and conditioning coaches, etc... I feel the real preventive medicine begins at a younger age in regards to stabilizing, strengthening, and conditioning joint structure. Injury prevention begins before the growth plates of bones fuse. It is a combination of nutrition, throwing, strengthening, etc.... It also relys on an innate property that noone has control over. We have been given a body and health by God and there is not one thing that any trainer or coach can do if we are genetically pre disposed to certain conditions. I truely feel the repetetive trauma of pitching can be hazardous. However, I also feel the genetics aspect, along with previous sprains and strains and the effects that they have on developing joints, are the main cause.

thank you God for the body, and thank you Doctor for the explaination.


drill

[fastbal95]

Drill,

Explanation of what???


DrMark,

I want to be clear with what you are saying. This is what Im getting though from what you said. So can you help me better understand if I am incorrect.

Are you saing then that all of the MLB and minor league players who are genetically gifted enough to throw 90 mph then are also plagued with genetic "defects" or predispositions that are causing injuries?

I really hope not.

[wrstdude]

Drill,

Explanation of what???


DrMark,

I want to be clear with what you are saying. This is what Im getting though from what you said. So can you help me better understand if I am incorrect.

Are you saing then that all of the MLB and minor league players who are genetically gifted enough to throw 90 mph then are also plagued with genetic "defects" or predispositions that are causing injuries?

I really hope not.

Why is that impossible?

Lance Armstrong had cancer, yet he is "genetically gifted".

[fastbal95]

Lance Armstrong is ONE man, out of how many cyclists??? Do all of the other pro cyclists get cancer also?

I said ALL pitchers. Now not ALL pitchers get injured, but Id say the percent is easliy somewhere between 80-90.

By the way, Lance Armstrong was also a huge cheater/blood doper.

[wrstdude]

Lance Armstrong is ONE man, out of how many cyclists??? Do all of the other pro cyclists get cancer also? :shrug: What are you talking about? Your argument is a Non Sequitur. How is it possible for someone to be a gifted athlete and get cancer? You don't have to go that far-Why do athletes tear ACLs/MCLs? This is the topic and the question that I asked-try to stay with me. They're not mutually exclusive as you suggested. People can be extremely gifted and still get hurt and have genetic defects. I'm surprised you could believe the contrary.

I said ALL pitchers. Now not ALL pitchers get injured, but Id say the percent is easliy somewhere between 80-90. Talk about a contradiction. You said "all" in one breath and in the next breath you say "not all". Wow. Any data to back up this speculation? You're all about data and studies-you should have some for this then correct?

By the way, Lance Armstrong was also a huge cheater/blood doper. What's your point? He's not a gifted athlete? Did he actually fail a drug test? Where's your proof that he was a huge cheater? Cause people suspected it? Lots of mudslinging.

I addressed you above.

[fastbal95]

Like I said, do all, or many cyclists get cancer???? Is it an epidemic like pitching arm injuries????

To say that the main cause for pitching arm injuries is a genetic predisposition is rediculous. Its from the pitching motion they use. Its not that hard to understand, but apparently for you it is. I never said gifted atheletes cant have genetic problems, but again, to say that its the main cause for injuries is ignornant.

If you read my original comment to DrMark you would see I said ALL pitchers who are injured. That doesnt mean that ALL pitchers get injured, HOWEVER, most do get injured somewhere in their career.

If you have done any reading and research into the whole blood doping thing is cycling then you know that Lance IS A CHEATER. And to think that he is not is just comical. You must be living in a dream world then. You prolly think Clemens has been clean this whole time too!

[wrstdude]

Like I said, do all, or many cyclists get cancer???? Is it an epidemic like pitching arm injuries????

To say that the main cause for pitching arm injuries is a genetic predisposition is rediculous. Its from the pitching motion they use. Its not that hard to understand, but apparently for you it is. I never said gifted atheletes cant have genetic problems, but again, to say that its the main cause for injuries is ignornant.

If you read my original comment to DrMark you would see I said ALL pitchers who are injured. That doesnt mean that ALL pitchers get injured, HOWEVER, most do get injured somewhere in their career.

If you have done any reading and research into the whole blood doping thing is cycling then you know that Lance IS A CHEATER. And to think that he is not is just comical. You must be living in a dream world then. You prolly think Clemens has been clean this whole time too!

Hi, I'm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg

I don't believe we've met.

[fastbal95]

wrstdude,

Pretty funny!

You have to be one of the most niave people on here bud!

[wrstdude]

wrstdude,

Pretty funny!

You have to be one of the most niave people on here bud!

I thought it was pretty funny too.

You're avoiding the questions and focusing on other parts of the conversation (Lance Armstrong's alleged doping, http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8HUPHU00&show_article=1, he's been exonerated by the way...so you can stop w/ all that BS) because you know your initial comments had no merit.

You said:

Are you saing then that all of the MLB and minor league players who are genetically gifted enough to throw 90 mph then are also plagued with genetic "defects" or predispositions that are causing injuries?

I really hope not.

I'll ask just to make sure.

Are you saying that people who are genetically gifted enough to throw 90 are immune to injury and have no genetic "defects" or predispositions that can cause injury?

I really hope not.

[fastbal95]

wrstdude,

For some reason you are a Lance Armstrong fanatic, which is fine, but that article is almost two years old. If you looked into any of what the Floyd Landis scandal brought out, you would see that Armstrong is just as guilty as all those other guys. And I dont need a positive test to know that, just like I dont need a positive test to know Clemens is just as dirty.

I havent avoided any questions, I dont know what you are talking about.

Again, to think Lance Armstrong didnt CHEAT is extremely naive.

Now, back to the real issue here.

If you look at what I wrote, nowhere did I say that people who can throw 90 mph are "immune" to genetics defects.

When I read what the kind DrMark wrote, this is what I thought he was saying, and I asked him if he was or was not to clarify. He has yet to respond back though.

Here is what he said:

"Injury prevention begins before the growth plates of bones fuse. It is a combination of nutrition, throwing, strengthening, etc.... It also relys on an innate property that noone has control over. We have been given a body and health by God and there is not one thing that any trainer or coach can do if we are genetically pre disposed to certain conditions. I truely feel the repetetive trauma of pitching can be hazardous. However, I also feel the genetics aspect, along with previous sprains and strains and the effects that they have on developing joints, are the main cause."

First of all I think this is such a VAGUE expanation of how to avoid injuries. Anyone can say proper nutrition, throwing, stregthening, etc.... Who doesnt know that???

Secondly, when I read this, it made me believe that he thinks the genetic aspects are the main cause for injuries.

That is why I asked him this:

"I want to be clear with what you are saying. This is what Im getting though from what you said. So can you help me better understand if I am incorrect.

Are you saing then that all of the MLB and minor league players who are genetically gifted enough to throw 90 mph then are also plagued with genetic "defects" or predispositions that are causing injuries?

I really hope not."

To say that EVERY pitcher that can throw 90 mph AND that gets injured, is due to genetic defects or predispostions is REDICULOUS. Thats why I asked him if this is what he was saying. If he wasnt, I wanted him to clarify his statement some more.

With that being said, that doesnt mean that a pitcher can throw 90 mph and have a genetic "defect". Its entirely possible. But it sounded to me like he was saying that ALL pitchers who get injured are because of genetics. He said "main cause". I just wanted some clarification, thats all.

Follow?

[Charger567]

By the way, my instructor is giving the same weighted ball advice to little leaguers, and no injuries. Can anyone explain this?

[fastbal95]

Charger,

What weight is your instructed advocating again, and for what ages, and what is the frequency? Like how many reps, how often, how many days et....?