How the ball breaks

[LAball]

Please explain to me how the different pitches breaks for a right hander ( Slider, Screwball, 2-4 Seem fast ball, and some others I dont know). Explain in a grid pattern 1-2-3 on top, 4-5-6 for the second row and 7-8-9 for the bottom row. Or I guess baseball uses the Clock pattern. I guess a 12-6 curveball basicaly breaks 2 down to 8, or some curves are 3 to 7 ( so thats 2-7 for the clock pattern?). At least I understand Knuckleballs can go anywhere. By the way thank you BBF and all the people that give thier opinion and advise. This is a great forum. :)

[Breeves85]

the clock is probably easier to use but I will try the grid. I'll explain the view of a right-handed hitter in the box against a right-handed pitcher using the grid(approximate amount of break) and a clock(angle of break) facing me as the hitter or if you were the catcher. point #5 is the reference point for the pitches, of course they can start and end anywhere.

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* 1 * 2 * 3 *
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* 4 * 5 * 6 *
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* 7 * 8 * 9 *
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4-seam: no movement[point #5(straight)], can also tail relatively flat [point #5-4(around 3:00-9:00)], can cut stays relatively flat [point #5-6( around 9:00-3:00)], believed to also ride or rise but the movement isn't alot. it usually won't jump from one grid location to the next like the other pitches. Power pitch. mostly backspin(straight or tilted)

2-seam: usually has movement, slower than 4-seam(5-10 mph slower)AKA the sinker has 3 possible movement angles. 1) point #5-8, just falls straight down. 2) point #5-7(1:00-7:00) 3) tails and sinks, point #5-4/7(2:00-8:00). mostly backspin(straight or tilted)

change-up: does everything the fastballs can do except it can't rise and it has less velocity(10-15 mph slower). mostly backspin(straight or tilted).

cutter: approaches plate at left edge of point #5 to right edge of point #5(can be 9:00-3:00 or 9:30-3:30) not alot of movement just enough to miss. Made Rivera famous. between the spin of fastball and slider with fastball velocity(1-8 mph slower).

curveball & knucklecurve: has many medium to large movements through the zone. regular curve can break in the grid from point #2-8(12:00-6:00), point #2-9(11:00-5:00), point #1-9(10:30-4:30 or 10:00-4:00). The knuckle curve breaks at Point#2-8, #2-9 and #2-7. slower than fastball (10-25 mph slower), has topspin(straight or tilted)

slider: AKA the nickel curve. This pitch has 4 basic movement angles and is close(7-15 mph slower) to fastball velocity. when approaching the plate it can break in points#5-8(12:00-6:00), points #5-9(11:00-5:00), points #4-9(10:00-4:00), and points#4-6(9:00-3:00). amount of break is sharp and can be more or less than the grid indicates. spins(mostly) counterclockwise and creates a dot in its center.

slurve: spins like a slider(sidespin), breaks like a normal curve just not as much, between the two in velocity(closer to curveball), hybrid of the two.

forkball/splitter: these two pitches have the same 3 movements as the knucklecurve (grid points but they approach the plate close to fastball velocity(7-10mph slower). tumbling backspin(about half or less of the revolutions of a fastball)

screwball: AKA mr. screwgie, breaks from point #6-4(3:00-9:00) or from point #6-7(2:00-8:00). around 12-20 mph slower than fastball. dangerous for the arm. clockwise spin.

knuckleball: AKA the floater from h*** :dance . 17-35 mph slower than fastball. starts at point 1-2-3(no tellin which one) and usually ends somewhere around 4-5-6-7-8-9(depends on speed and lack of spin how much break you get) while moving in different directions through flight. absolutely no spin. best thrown in the 58-70 mph range.

I hope this helps answer your question. Later!

[Chris O'Leary]

the clock is probably easier to use but I will try the grid. I'll explain the view of a right-handed hitter in the box against a right-handed pitcher using the grid(approximate amount of break) and a clock(angle of break) facing me as the hitter or if you were the catcher. point #5 is the reference point for the pitches, of course they can start and end anywhere.

**********
* 1 * 2 * 3 *
**********
* 4 * 5 * 6 *
**********
* 7 * 8 * 9 *
**********



This is a good try, but it contains multiple errors.


4-seam: no movement[point #5(straight)], can also tail relatively flat [point #5-4(around 3:00-9:00)], can cut stays relatively flat [point #5-6( around 9:00-3:00)], believed to also ride or rise but the movement isn't alot. it usually won't jump from one grid location to the next like the other pitches. Power pitch. mostly backspin(straight or tilted)

A good 4-seamer will move 4-5 or 5-6. A great 4-seamer (Ryan, Peavy, Verlander) will move 4-6.


2-seam: usually has movement, slower than 4-seam(5-10 mph slower)AKA the sinker has 3 possible movement angles. 1) point #5-8, just falls straight down. 2) point #5-7(1:00-7:00) 3) tails and sinks, point #5-4/7(2:00-8:00). mostly backspin(straight or tilted)

Most 2-seamers come in at roughly 97% of a 4-seamer velocity. If a guy's 4-seamer is 95, their 2-seamer will come in a 92. However, most guys throw either a 4 or a 2, not both.

Standard 2-seamer movement is 5-9.


change-up: does everything the fastballs can do except it can't rise and it has less velocity(10-15 mph slower). mostly backspin(straight or tilted).

Usually 5-9 or 2-9.


cutter: approaches plate at left edge of point #5 to right edge of point #5(can be 9:00-3:00 or 9:30-3:30) not alot of movement just enough to miss. Made Rivera famous. between the spin of fastball and slider with fastball velocity(1-8 mph slower).

Most will move 6-5 or 5-4.


slider: AKA the nickel curve. This pitch has 4 basic movement angles and is close(7-15 mph slower) to fastball velocity. when approaching the plate it can break in points#5-8(12:00-6:00), points #5-9(11:00-5:00), points #4-9(10:00-4:00), and points#4-6(9:00-3:00). amount of break is sharp and can be more or less than the grid indicates. spins(mostly) counterclockwise and creates a dot in its center.

Classic movement is 5-7.


slurve: spins like a slider(sidespin), breaks like a normal curve just not as much, between the two in velocity(closer to curveball), hybrid of the two.

Usually moves 3-7 or 2-7.

Break isn't as sharp as a good slider or as vertical as a good curve.


forkball/splitter: these two pitches have the same 3 movements as the knucklecurve (grid points but they approach the plate close to fastball velocity(7-10mph slower). tumbling backspin(about half or less of the revolutions of a fastball)

Generally move 5-8.


screwball: AKA mr. screwgie, breaks from point #6-4(3:00-9:00) or from point #6-7(2:00-8:00). around 12-20 mph slower than fastball. dangerous for the arm. clockwise spin.

This is totally wrong.

First, a screwball will tend to move 1-9 or 2-9.

Second, the screwball is a perfectly safe pitch. Greg Maddux's FB and CH are variations of the screwball.

[jneas]

Are we looking at the grid from the pitcher's viewpoint or the hitter/catcher's? I get the feeling that Chris and B85 are looking from opposite sides.

[Chris O'Leary]

Are we looking at the grid from the pitcher's viewpoint or the hitter/catcher's? I get the feeling that Chris and B85 are looking from opposite sides.

My point of view is the pitcher, which is the standard.

[jamesh23]

breeves85 your wrong in so many ways... nice try though. and thanks to chris o leary for correcting it.

[Breeves85]

I do apologize that I didn't make myself clear. The grid was used to describe the points in the strike zone. its funny how I am SO WRONG when I so obviously stated that my explanation was from the VANTAGE POINT OF THE HITTER AND CATCHER WITH A RIGHT HANDED PITCHER! I do agree that the pitches can break more or less than I described and that I may have been wrong about the screwball, but Chris you said the key word when talking about Maddux's pitches. You said they were variations of the screwball NOT the traditional one that can really mess up the elbow. A variation is a modification to achieve a different result. Maddux doesn't turn it over like a traditional screwball and if his 2-seamer was a true screwball it wouldn't be coming at 85 mph. I'm quite sure Maddux's pitches don't have the traditional screwball spin. All you described was a typical 2-seam sinker as you put it. I would love to see Maddux throw a 2-seamer that breaks from the top of the zone to the very bottom. It's hard for the change-up to break that far and who cares if a pitcher only throws one or the other fastball, that wasn't the point. When I described the pitches, I didn't plan on giving the typical standard, I was giving every possibility. The movement depends entirely on the arm angle. For example the slider, Johnson's and Pryor's sliders break more horizontally than vertically, while K-Rod's is the exact opposite. Pedro's curveball is flatter than Beckett's curve or Mussina's knucklecurve. So once again I ask the question, how was I wrong when I gave every type of variation possible?

[Chris O'Leary]

I may have been wrong about the screwball, but Chris you said the key word when talking about Maddux's pitches. You said they were variations of the screwball NOT the traditional one that can really mess up the elbow.

It is a MYTH that the screwball, any screwball, will mess up the elbow.

The opposite is true.

[LAball]

You guys are awsome, Thanks:)

[Deemax]

It is a MYTH that the screwball, any screwball, will mess up the elbow.

The opposite is true.

August 22nd, 1938 article on the greatest screwball pitcher ever....Carl Hubbell

"Hubbell has an arm operation for bone chips in his elbow and is finished for the season. He tells writers that for several years his elbow has hurt from throwing his screwball."

My pitching coach in college also threw a screwball, and that screwball got him to the big leagues... He also had elbow and shoulder injuries from this pitch which required surgery.

Pronation before release is not "natural" pronation, and is not a pitch that should be taught unless all other options of getting hitters out has been exhausted (in adult pitchers).

IMO your dead wrong.

[Chadbradfordwannabe]

I'd thought I'd say this, although I don't think it's groundbreaking stuff.

The shape and amount of "break" for any pitch is largely dependent on the ball's spin axis and RPM's.

Hence, a RH pitcher with a high slot will generally have less horizontal movement on his pitcher than a pitcher with a low slot.

Think about any sport that involves a sphere being thrown and hit. Put slice spin in golf and the ball will go left to right. Put slice spin on a baseball and it goes left to right. Throw a ball with slice spin and guess what?

Yup, left to right (from a RH's POV).

I would argue that the best 4-seamers are the ones that "stay up longer" and give the impression that they "rise", not the ones that move the most laterally.

[LAball]

Pronation before release is not "natural" pronation, and is not a pitch that should be taught unless all other options of getting hitters out has been exhausted (in adult pitchers).



Doesn't Marshall teach pronation to release the ball as a way to prevent elbow problems?

[Dirtberry]

Chris,

Nice.


Dee,

It’s not Dr.Carl Hubbell?

Bone chips or spurs as they call them now are not bone they are calcified pieces hyaline cartilage that is torn off while youth throwing and pitching. Shoulder and elbow injuries are caused by “Over early rotation” and “Scapular loading” not pronated pitch types!

LABall,

He only claims certain types of elbow problems from supination.
UCL damage comes from bouncing the ball backwards just prior to forward force application.

The screwball is the safest of all maximally thrown pitches!

[Deemax]

It’s not Dr.Carl Hubbell?

Bone chips or spurs as they call them now are not bone they are calcified pieces hyaline cartilage that is torn off while youth throwing and pitching. Shoulder and elbow injuries are caused by “Over early rotation” and “Scapular loading” not pronated pitch types!


Its not Dr. Carl Hubbell?!? OK dirt, Its Hall of Famer Carl Hubbell. The greatest screwballer ever says this pitch is not natural, and is the reason his arm was destroyed.... Much more convincing then you cutting and pasting MM's flawed opinion.

[Chadbradfordwannabe]

FWIW, this is a Carl Hubbell quote:

“The screwball's an unnatural pitch. Nature never intended a man to turn his hand like that throwing rocks at a bear.”

[Chadbradfordwannabe]

Dirt,

Based on your answer above, I have a feeling that you didn't know who Carl Hubbell is. How can you throw a screwball and NOT know who Carl Hubbell is?

Just so you know, MM was NOT the first pitcher to throw a screwball.

Just stirrin' it up....

[Chris O'Leary]

August 22nd, 1938 article on the greatest screwball pitcher ever....Carl Hubbell

"Hubbell has an arm operation for bone chips in his elbow and is finished for the season. He tells writers that for several years his elbow has hurt from throwing his screwball."

My pitching coach in college also threw a screwball, and that screwball got him to the big leagues... He also had elbow and shoulder injuries from this pitch which required surgery.

Pronation before release is not "natural" pronation, and is not a pitch that should be taught unless all other options of getting hitters out has been exhausted (in adult pitchers).

IMO your dead wrong.

There are too many confounding variables to make this statement.

First, Hubbell isn't an MD. He just THINKS the screwball is the problem. That doesn't mean it was.

Second, your college PC isn't an MD. He just THINKS the screwball is the problem. That doesn't mean it was.

Third, Mike Marshall threw tons of screwballs. Why didn't he suffer the same fate?

Logically, if the screwball was as bad as people say, then Marshall should have had major problems since he threw the screwball. Since he didn't, that suggests that something else is the root cause of the problem.

[Chris O'Leary]

OK dirt, Its Hall of Famer Carl Hubbell. The greatest screwballer ever says this pitch is not natural, and is the reason his arm was destroyed.

Sorry, but Hubbell doesn't have the proper credentials to make this statement.

It's like listening to a NASCAR driver explain why his engine blew up. I pay more attention to what the mechanic says since he built and actually understands the engine.

[jamesh23]

so hubbell blew out his arm that way? how come marshall threw one for 14 years and didnt any problems?

[Chris O'Leary]

so hubbell blew out his arm that way? how come marshall threw one for 14 years and didnt any problems?

Precisely.

If the screwball truly was a killer pitch, then it should have killed Marshall's arm as well.

Why didn't it?

That suggests that something else was going on.

[Deemax]

First, Hubbell isn't an MD.
There is no MD in front of Chris O'leary either. Carl Hubbell knew his bread and butter (the screwball) hurt when he threw it.

Third, Mike Marshall threw tons of screwballs. Why didn't he suffer the same fate?

There are not alot of absolutes in this game. Your thoughts on the screwball, the "L", and "M" prove this. Comparing MM to CH is not apples to apples.

Mike Marshall also threw alot of other pitches. Hubbell used his screwball as much as he could, and pitched nearly 3 times as many innings as Marshall.

Logically, if the screwball was as bad as people say, then Marshall should have had major problems since he threw the screwball. Since he didn't, that suggests that something else is the root cause of the problem.
Logically? Every time you embrace this pitch and continue to teach it to 12 year olds, Im going to call you out on it.
Logically? The greatest screwballer ever says the pitch is bad for your arm, yet you conclude it must be from something else?!

Because the arm pronates naturally AFTER release, does not mean that it is natural or safe DURING release.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

You are way off on this man. When you pronate your forearm, you bring your radius bone closer towards the ulna bone. This action flexes the elbow so that you do not slam your olecranon process into ints fossa.

If you pronate after release, you have already done the damage of slamming your olecranon process into its fossa, which causes bone chips, spurs, etc... The centripetal force that throws your arm laterally away from your body will ensure that you slam your two bones together if you do not pronate during the release of you pitch. This is especially true for breaking pitches such as the slider and curveball.

MD does not go in front of someones name by the way, it goes after. And while there is no MD behind Dr. Mike Marshall, there is a PhD. MD's do NOT know kinesiology, which explains joint actions of the body. They do not take this class in Med School. But guess who does? Someone who gets a PhD in exercise physiology and kinesiology. Someone like Dr. Mike Marshall. Someone who taught kinesiology at the graduate level for years.

One thing that I will agree with Chris is, that the screwball is the most safest pitch someone can learn to throw. Dee, you dont know that you dont know.

Pitching a baseball is based on science, namely phsyics, where there ARE absolutes. Mike Marshall also through others pitches, yes. He through a maxline fastball, which is pronated, a slider, which he pronated, and a sinker, which he pronated, and by the way is in between a screwball and fastball. But his bread and butter pitch, the one that made his famous, was the SCREWBALL.

That Hubbell is the greatest screwball pitcher in the history of the game is your opinion. Did Hubbell have any sort of advanced degree having to do with science and how the body works? I DOUBT IT! He prolly didnt know what his olecranon process even was or where it was located.

[Deemax]

If you pronate after release, you have already done the damage of slamming your olecranon process into its fossa, which causes bone chips, spurs, etc... The centripetal force that throws your arm laterally away from your body will ensure that you slam your two bones together if you do not pronate during the release of you pitch.

Show me anyone, including MM guys that have pronated before release on a fastball.... is the goal to actively think about pronating, or to actually pronate a fastball before it leaves your hand?

Is this hand pronated before release on a MM maxline fastball? IMO no.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/Jeff.gif




One thing that I will agree with Chris is, that the screwball is the most safest pitch someone can learn to throw.

IMO, and in my experience this is not true.


Pitching a baseball is based on science, namely phsyics, where there ARE absolutes.
One absolute is never teach the exact same delivery to every pitcher. Your right, there are absolutes in pitching.... but like I said, not alot. Pitching a baseball is based on so much more than science.

Did Hubbell have any sort of advanced degree having to do with science and how the body works? I DOUBT IT! He prolly didnt know what his olecranon process even was or where it was located.

Hubbell made it to the Hall of Fame as a screwball pitcher. IMO this gives his opinion on the pitch credibility.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

Did I say before, or did I say during, in my last post?

This video is bad because 1. Its from a far away view, and 2. Its side view not straight on. If you explain to me how to put video on here from the internet, I might be able to get a better view.

What experience do you have with a screwball? Im not being sarcastic, seriously.

What else is pitching based on then?

I disagree with your "absolute" statements.

Making it to the Hall of Fame is subjective, not objective. So, imo, just because he made it to the hall doesnt mean he knew jack. A lot of pitches have or had no clue how they did things, they just did them.

[Deemax]

The centripetal force that throws your arm laterally away from your body will ensure that you slam your two bones together if you do not pronate during the release of you pitch.

How is lateral forearm flyout of many traditional pitchers any safer than vertical forearm flyout of MM pitchers..? seriously.


What experience do you have with a screwball? Im not being sarcastic, seriously.

My college pitching coach pitched in the big leagues as a left handed screwballer. I spoke with him alot over my four years there about pitching, the screwball, his surgeries, mental approach, training...etc.etc.etc...

What else is pitching based on then?

Feel. The ability to pitch, and have an idea of what your doing between the lines. With your experience I think you know what Im getting at.

I disagree with your "absolute" statements.

I know. Im OK with that.

[fastbal95]

Dee,

You are going to have to explain what you mean by vertical flyout. If your arm is vertical at release, first of all, its not flying out. Secondly since you cannot raise your upper arm above the level of your shoulders, if you arm is vertical at release, you are going to have to have some degree of seperation of your pitching upper arm (humerus) to your forearm, that is unless you can lean 90 degrees to your glove side. I have seen someone lean quite a bit, but never 90 degrees yet. This seperation means that you have not locked out your arm and you cannot slam your olecranon process into its fossa.

Can you tell me what injuries/surgeries your coach had exactly?


I understand what you mean by feel.