swing analysis please.

[cubsphill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1B05_j_3oE


thanks

[cosmo34]

Prince Fielder anyone?

That's at PG ain't it. Gotta be nice to have a facility like that.

I didn't see too many problem areas. Seems you might be slightly succeptable to offspeed stuff, but hard to tell facing a machine/BP.

[cubsphill]

yup its at pg.

ive been trying to get video off someone throwing, but the only times ive been able to, there wasnt enough space for me to set up a camera to get my whole body.

i do have trouble with slower pitching. that video was against 75mph. for some reason when i face slower pitches, my bat speed slows as well.

maybe i should bump up the speed to 85 or something. the only problem is there arent that many arms throwing that hard around here.

[cosmo34]

I remember being exstatic when PG came to DM. Pretty much every time I went there, the ICubs were in there as well. Too bad they picked an absolutely horrible location, and it didn't last long.

Don't worry about struggling with slower velocities. I have that problem too. Just gotta focus on letting it get deeper in the zone, and focusing on left-left center. Then if something leaks over the inner half, youre staying back and can turn and burn on it.

Maybe make friends with some of the Mt. Mercy guys. They have a few in the mid 80's. Plus they aren't very good at keeping the ball down :)

[Drill]

Shorten you stance about two inches, so you can bend your knees. Will give you more plate coverage. Right now you look locked in.

You look good, powerful. Just try it and see how it feel

IMHO,


drill


ps - my advice is free so take it for what its worth

[callyjr]

At first glance I am not sure but is your front elbow locking out? It seems as if it is straight on most of the pitches. If someone could convert it we could slow it down a bit more.

Cally

[BoardMember]

At first glance I a not sure but is your front elbow locking out? It seems as if it is straight on most of the pitches. If someone could convert it we could slow it down a bit more.

Cally

Right on Cally. The lead arm is barred and the swing is bordering on bat drag:

http://i28.tinypic.com/t6dkwy.jpg

[callyjr]

Right on Cally. The lead arm is barred and the swing is bordering on bat drag:

http://i28.tinypic.com/t6dkwy.jpg

thought so, what a trained eye we have. :) He is not pulling it back to far, but must have been taught to throw the barrel at the ball because thats what i am seeing.

Having a tough time with the inside pitches?

Cally

[cosmo34]

The pitch could be middle away

[TG Coach]

When I took a quick look last night, I noticed the position of his elbows and wondered if there was slight bat drag. Also, If he shortened his stance and only strode forward instead of back, then forward, wouldn't he be more balanced? It's not a bad swing. It just has slight flaws to be fixed.

[callyjr]

The pitch could be middle away

He is at the cages, He chooses where he wants the pitch right. Your recording your swing, are you going to select middle away? His arm is straight on every swing. He could just have a flaw that he is here to fix.


I agree with TG about the multiple steps but the actual swing is pretty good for the most part.

Cally

[cubsphill]

yup, its middle away.

[cosmo34]

He is at the cages, He chooses where he wants the pitch right. Your recording your swing, are you going to select middle away? His arm is straight on every swing. He could just have a flaw that he is here to fix.


If you can find a guy who can precisely put every single pitch in the exact same spot that I want every time, please send him my way.

And yes, when I film, I try to have pitches in all locations.

And Cubsphill just confirmed that it was, in fact, middle away.

[cubsphill]

...
Having a tough time with the inside pitches?

Cally

not as much as i used to. in the past week i went back to using the 'toe tap' because its easier for me to take the hands back when my hips start to open. the toe tap is much more comfortable for me than just a regular stride.

i used to wrap a little bit and the toe tap has made it easier for me not to wrap the bat.

what should i do to eliminate bat drag? keep the hands up with the shoulders rotating?

[cubsphill]

I remember being exstatic when PG came to DM. Pretty much every time I went there, the ICubs were in there as well. Too bad they picked an absolutely horrible location, and it didn't last long.
...


the kernels use perfect game during the summer because its right down the street from the stadium. usually on rain outs they hit up pg.

pg will be expanding this facility eventually which is nice because there are rarely ever any cages open after 4pm.

they could really use a new weight room. you can tell theyve had this stuff since pg opened.

[Go Cardinals]

It's good... don't change too much. I'll respond in a sec... just need to get some video.

[Go Cardinals]

First of all, your arm is a little too locked. I'll put up a picture of you next to Pujols at the bottom. Your problem is, when you load, your arm is in front of your body... visible to the pitcher. Stand up, and get set up to take a swing. If you load your hands back infront of your body, you can make a bar, which you arm. No try making a bar with your hands not visible to the pitcher. It should be a lot harder to make the bar now. Think about hiding your hands to the pitcher. Watch: http://hittingillustrated.com/library/CYoung2.gif

When he is at "max load" (dangerous word, especially for you... I'll explain later), his hands are not visible to us. Yours should be like that too. Watch when your hands go back to not visible to the pitcher, and when his. Also, try starting with your elbow bent a little more. That might help, because you have such a long stride.

Also, the barring issue could be something totally different. You could be "barring out." "Barring out" means your going around the pitch... too much. Think about hitting the inside seem.

Next, try loading against the inside of your front foot. This will help swaying... that should also help hinder the excess head movement (not much, but less the better). Remember this thread? Try doing that when you load... if you want more explanations I'll give it later if you want: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=73863

So pretty much like this: http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/th_braun1small.gif

Listen your swing is good. Check your PM, I will give you some more stuff there.

P.S. - I am not putting the pictures for now.

[BoardMember]

If you can find a guy who can precisely put every single pitch in the exact same spot that I want every time, please send him my way.

And yes, when I film, I try to have pitches in all locations.

And Cubsphill just confirmed that it was, in fact, middle away.

Doesn't matter if the pitch is middle-away. The rear elbow is leading the hands and the bat is dragging:

http://i28.tinypic.com/t6dkwy.jpg

See if you can see the difference on this middle-away pitch. The elbow rear elbow stays under the shoulder and the hands stay ahead of the rear shoulder.

IOW, when the hands turn the corner, they should be leading the rear elbow, not the other way around..........Middle out, or not.......

Big difference......:

http://i26.tinypic.com/d0np.gif

[LClifton]

Next, try loading against the inside of your front foot. This will help swaying...
How so?
Load against the inside of your rear foot. This will help avoid swaying.

(edited to add "avoid")

[Ursa Major]

First, some good advice here already, which I won't repeat. GoCards, you're analysis is very sophisticated. You've come a long way, young padawan! The bobbing you noticed is barely noticeable, but it may come in part from the overly-long stride that others (like TG Coach) have noticed.

Second, that long stride combined with the long, arm-barred swing may cause trouble in timing off-speed pitches, because you need to start everything so early. I'd see how you do against such pitching before making a dramatic change in stride length, but I agree with TGCoach that it's something to keep in the back of your mind.

Third, the bathead drifts back and down (toward the first base dugout) just before the swing launch, which can cause a few problems. Compare to the clips of Pujols swing, where that does not occur. GoCards' "hide the hands" idea may be one way to address it.

Fourth, it seems that the front knee opens a little early, but that may be more a matter of taste. The suggestion of driving into the inside of the front foot is one way to start to address that.

Overall, you may want to think in terms of making the swing more efficient, so that's it ultimately feels more like a quick "back shoulder to the ball" movement. The ultimate goal would be to achieve a later start and less bobbing and less need to adjust the bathead height. Tee work with a no-stride swing and occasionally incorporating a bottom-arm only swing may be one way to start getting that feel.

Still, a very nice swing. Sorry for the quibbling.

Ursa

[LClifton]

Fourth, it seems that the front knee opens a little early, but that may be more a matter of taste. The suggestion of driving into the inside of the front foot is one way to start to address that.
After reading this I may have mis-understood Go Cards suggestion of "loading into the inside of the front foot" to eliminate sway.

Sway, to me would occur during the weight shift back.
So, I said load into the inside of the rear foot.

Slide would be what I would invision on the weight shift forward if one did not ----"drive into the inside of the front foot." (Ursa.)

My bad.

[callyjr]

If you can find a guy who can precisely put every single pitch in the exact same spot that I want every time, please send him my way.

And yes, when I film, I try to have pitches in all locations.

And Cubsphill just confirmed that it was, in fact, middle away.

ok, but does it really matter. He is still swinging with his arm straight.

[Go Cardinals]

Ok, I may have been a little unclear...

You know when you golf, and you go back in the back swing... lets say your right handed. You go back, and you want to keep the weight inside your right foot. I was told not to roll it over (don't forget how bad my golf swing is). That, IMO, is the same principle idea.

[LClifton]

It's all good Connor.
Anxiously awaiting the results of your first game and the season.
My best.
-LClifton

[cosmo34]

ok, but does it really matter. He is still swinging with his arm straight.


Which is an extremely easy fix, and isn't going to hinder him at all against the competition he is going to face this year. It's not that big of a problem, if it's one at all.

[cubsphill]

the arm bar is a problem ive known that i have but for some reason ive had a hard time correcting. i started doing one hand training a few days ago. so with further use ill see how it starts to improve.

what other drills are there to work on this problem?

i have an indoor game tomorrow so ill try to get plenty of swings in before the game to get used to this. all day ive been working on getting a 'tip' of the bat and pulling the knob to the ball, so its getting more natural.

ill get a video up again next week...

[BoardMember]

ok, but does it really matter. He is still swinging with his arm straight.

Which is an extremely easy fix, and isn't going to hinder him at all against the competition he is going to face this year. It's not that big of a problem, if it's one at all.

the arm bar is a problem ive known that i have but for some reason ive had a hard time correcting

Ok, Cosmo. Here's your chance to show ur stuff.......:cap:

Told us how easy it is to fix, now exactly what should he do to fix this easily fixable problem........

Anxiously awaiting.........:dance

[cosmo34]

Epstein's fence drill.

Voila.

[BoardMember]

Epstein's fence drill.

Voila.

Well, there ya go Phill. The fence drill should fix everything!

I think?........:noidea

[Go Cardinals]

Well, there ya go Phill. The fence drill should fix everything!

I think?........:noidea

It should...

[cosmo34]

Since everybody has pretty much agreed that his arm bar is the only problem, wouldn't that be everything?

Do you think it wouldn't help?

[Go Cardinals]

Since everybody has pretty much agreed that his arm bar is the only problem, wouldn't that be everything?

Do you think it wouldn't help?

Don't go that far... there's more big holes to fix, but its still really nice.

[BoardMember]

Since everybody has pretty much agreed that his arm bar is the only problem, wouldn't that be everything?

Do you think it wouldn't help?

I think it might help the arm bar, but it won't fix the bat drag.......:dance

[Go Cardinals]

I think it might help the arm bar, but it won't fix the bat drag.......:dance

Thats another issue and a whole nother debate...

[cosmo34]

How so?.....

[Go Cardinals]

How so?.....

How is it a whole nother debate?

[BoardMember]

nother???? :shrug:

Thats another issue and a whole nother debate...

[Go Cardinals]

nother???? :shrug:

I know, I know thats wrong... my spell check told me it was wrong... what should it be? lol, grammar lesson... :highfive:

[BoardMember]

I know, I know thats wrong... my spell check told me it was wrong... what should it be? lol, grammar lesson... :highfive:

Well, it's either "another" whole debate, or a whole "other" debate.....

[cosmo34]

I think it might help the arm bar, but it won't fix the bat drag.......:dance


That's where the "how so" was directed.

We posted at the same time.

[Go Cardinals]

Well, it's either "another" whole debate, or a whole "other" debate.....

Ok, thanks :)

So yeah, what you said :highfive:

[BoardMember]

That's where the "how so" was directed.

We posted at the same time.

Because drag isn't related to bar.

They aren't even cousins.......:dance

[Go Cardinals]

Because drag isn't related to bar.

They aren't even cousins.......:dance

Ok, two different people... that may be so. They may not even know each other; however, they can both be killed by the same gun.

[BoardMember]

Ok, two different people... that may be so. They may not even know each other; however, they can both be killed by the same gun.

Sorry GC, the fence cares absolutely nothing about the rear elbow leading the hands.......

This kid would have no problem "missing the fence".

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/hipdrift.gif

[Go Cardinals]

Sorry GC, the fence cares absolutely nothing about the rear elbow leading the hands.......

Thats not it... I am saying that arm bar and bat drag can both be fixed by the same thing. The fence drill only helps arm bar.

I didn't want to say this, but ... the dreaded word, torque.

[BoardMember]

Thats not it... I am saying that arm bar and bat drag can both be fixed by the same thing. The fence drill only helps arm bar.

Are you going to tell us how/what same thing will fix both problems?

[Go Cardinals]

Are you going to tell us how/what same thing will fix both problems?

I edited my above post... read:


I didn't want to say this, but ... the dreaded word, torque.


I was waiting for you to ask lol

[cosmo34]

Sorry GC, the fence cares absolutely nothing about the rear elbow leading the hands.......

This kid would have no problem "missing the fence".

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/hipdrift.gif


And Phill looks exactly like that kid doesn't he.

[Go Cardinals]

And Phill looks exactly like that kid doesn't he.

He pointed out something very similar about the two...

Look from the start to about one frame after it says launch... watch that point in both. That is what is missing from the swing.

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds7.gif
http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/hipdrift.gif

[cosmo34]

Well aware of the bat drag in both shots, but other than that, their swings or completely 180 degrees away from each other.

BM was talking about the other kid "missing the fence". Of course he would, there is absolutely no rotation, and has the dreaded straight to the ball hand path. That is why he will miss the fence.

Phill rotates, and does not go straight to the ball. Big difference.

[Go Cardinals]

Well aware of the bat drag in both shots, but other than that, their swings or completely 180 degrees away from each other.

BM was talking about the other kid "missing the fence". Of course he would, there is absolutely no rotation, and has the dreaded straight to the ball hand path. That is why he will miss the fence.

Phill rotates, and does not go straight to the ball. Big difference.

Your missing something, check your pm...

[Go Cardinals]

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/AJones7.gif

What is he doing that makes him not have bat drag and not have an arm bar problem? Because he doesn't have either. What does he do?

[BoardMember]

Well aware of the bat drag in both shots, but other than that, their swings or completely 180 degrees away from each other.

BM was talking about the other kid "missing the fence". Of course he would, there is absolutely no rotation, and has the dreaded straight to the ball hand path. That is why he will miss the fence.

Phill rotates, and does not go straight to the ball. Big difference.

Cos, the point is fence drill won't fix drag, that's all.......

[BoardMember]

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/AJones7.gif

What is he doing that makes him not have bat drag and not have an arm bar problem? Because he doesn't have either. What does he do?


Conner, drag is an upper body problem, not a lower body problem.......

[Go Cardinals]

Cos, the point is fence drill won't fix drag, that's all.......

I agree 100%

It will fix his bar though.

[BoardMember]

I agree 100%

It will fix his bar though.

I might. And, it might not. If his front shoulder flys he will miss the fence even with bar.......

[cosmo34]

Cos, the point is fence drill won't fix drag, that's all.......

If he's properly slotting his rear elbow and his lead arm is correctly working up it will. I'm just taking it for granted that if he's doing the fence drill right, that will be happening.

Of course simply standing in front of a fence and figuring out a way to rotate and get the bat through without hitting the fence won't solve the problem. Doing it right, like I described above, would.

[BoardMember]

Well Cos, if he was doing things right, we wouldn't be talking about it....:dance

If he's properly slotting his rear elbow and his lead arm is correctly working up it will. I'm just taking it for granted that if he's doing the fence drill right, that will be happening.

Of course simply standing in front of a fence and figuring out a way to rotate and get the bat through without hitting the fence won't solve the problem. Doing it right, like I described above, would.

[BoardMember]

If he's properly slotting his rear elbow and his lead arm is correctly working up it will.

Neither of these are working correctly.......

[Go Cardinals]

Conner, drag is an upper body problem, not a lower body problem.......

I know...

Let me ask again... why is he not barring the arm and dragging the bat? He is close to both?

[Jake Patterson]

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/AJones7.gif

What is he doing that makes him not have bat drag and not have an arm bar problem? Because he doesn't have either. What does he do?
Do you feel this is a good swing?

[Go Cardinals]

Do you feel this is a good swing?

Take away the lower body... then yes... his upper body is very similar imo to cubsphill... that's why I'm asking. What is he doing that prevents drag and bar?

[BoardMember]

Do you feel this is a good swing?

Ugly swing......

He bars and drags in this clip.........

[Go Cardinals]

Ugly swing......

He bars and drags in this clip.........

Ok fine... but why do so many pros drag then? I've seen many clips of this...

[BoardMember]

Ok fine... but why do so many pros drag then? I've seen many clips of this...

No you haven't........

[cosmo34]

Well Cos, if he was doing things right, we wouldn't be talking about it....:dance

I know, but I wouldn't have him simply go out and swing in front of a fence.

Earlier, you asked a simple question, and I gave a simple answer. Perhaps I should have gone more in depth.

I still stand by my earlier statement, that (if we get him to properly do the fence drill) it will fix his drag/bar.

[BoardMember]

I know, but I wouldn't have him simply go out and swing in front of a fence.

Earlier, you asked a simple question, and I gave a simple answer. Perhaps I should have gone more in depth.

I still stand by my earlier statement, that (if we get him to properly do the fence drill) it will fix his drag/bar.

My point is if he swings correctly, he won't need a fence drill.......:dance

[Go Cardinals]

No you haven't........

Let me find them...

Hints here:
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/ARamirez3.gif
This is arm bar for him, because thats as far as he can extend his arm with that guard on...
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds741d.gif

It's arm bar if Andruw is barring...

[cosmo34]

And this thread probably wouldn't exist either.

[BoardMember]

Not even close GC. Freeze them in the same spot and look at the difference.

You're really streching things here.......

Lets get back to phills problem and how to help him fix it.......

You know I have plenty to say, but I want to hear you and Cos work on this thing............

It always helps to explore different avenues to help fix mechanics.....

The fence drill is one, that "could help IF done correctly.....

What else can he do?




Let me find them...

Hints here:
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/ARamirez3.gif
This is arm bar for him, because thats as far as he can extend his arm with that guard on...
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds741d.gif

It's arm bar if Andruw is barring...

[Go Cardinals]

If you swing right (ie keep shoulders in) than the fence drill will not allow you to extend your arms.


Not even close GC. Freeze them in the same spot and look at the difference.

You're really streching things here.......

Lets get back to phills problem and how to help him fix it.......

You know I have plenty to say, but I want to hear you and Cos work on this thing............

It always helps to explore different avenues to help fix mechanics.....

The fence drill is one, that "could help IF done correctly.....

What else can he do?

[cosmo34]

Your right... I was just throwing things out there.

If you swing right (ie keep shoulders in) than the fence drill will not allow you to extend your arms.


There's a reason it's called the "Enforcer Drill".

It enforses certain areas. Not all of them.

[Go Cardinals]

BM what about this guy?

http://i31.tinypic.com/c8dj6.gif

p.s. - Could you give me the rest of the swing clip? just post it here... thanks

[Drill]

Well, there ya go Phill. The fence drill should fix everything!

I think?........:noidea




LOL, Just don't start spinning out


drill



ps i feel this discussion getting ready to go to lead arm extension.

[Go Cardinals]

Whats the difference between soriano and phill?

The result is a home run

[BoardMember]

BM what about this guy?

http://i31.tinypic.com/c8dj6.gif

p.s. - Could you give me the rest of the swing clip? just post it here... thanks

Sure no problem.

http://i31.tinypic.com/wk4a5w.gif

No Drag, No Bar from my prospective.......You can see a pretty good flex in the lead elbow in this pic:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2n852xz.jpghttp://i28.tinypic.com/t6dkwy.jpg

[BoardMember]

Conner please, you're really reaching again. Lets talk about a fairly normal pitch location OK?

You know, like this one? See any arm bar here?:

http://i30.tinypic.com/1o4zdt.jpg

I'm sure you can find a pitch location that will cause imperfections. Phills swings are at waist high pitches.


Whats the difference between soriano and phill?

The result is a home run

[Go Cardinals]

Sure no problem.

http://i31.tinypic.com/wk4a5w.gif

No Drag, No Bar from my prospective.......You can see a pretty good flex in the lead elbow in this pic:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2n852xz.jpghttp://i28.tinypic.com/t6dkwy.jpg

Yes I see... so could he be over emphasizing the elbow slotting? IMO, elbow slot occurs naturally. I've thought this forever.

Thanks for the clip.

[BoardMember]

Yes I see... so could he be over emphasizing the elbow slotting? IMO, elbow slot occurs naturally. I've thought this forever.

Thanks for the clip.

The slotting has nothing to do with it...........

OK, look, I'm just going to tell you the problem.

Lack of tension in the lead arm is allowing the shoulders to begin turning while the hands are being left behind, causing the lead arm to straighten out, instead of moving instantly with the shoulders. Without some tension in the lead arm, you loose flexion in the lead arm from the lead shoulder pull.

You will almost never see this in a good MLB swing. While the hips move before the shoulders/hands, the hand ALWAYS move with the shoulders and accelerate forward past them.

Go watch the slo-mo clip on You-tube.

You'll see the shoulder turn causing the lead arm to straighten instead of the hands moving instantly with shoulder turn and accelerating forward.

Come back and tell me if you see it..........

[Go Cardinals]

The slotting has nothing to do with it...........

OK, look, I'm just going to tell you the problem.

Lack of tension in the lead arm is allowing the shoulders to begin turning while the hands are being left behind, causing the lead arm to straighten out, instead of moving instantly with the shoulders. Without some tension in the lead arm, you loose flexion in the lead arm from the lead shoulder pull.

You will never see this in a good MLB swing. While the hips move before the shoulders/hands, the hand ALWAYS move with the shoulders and accelerate forward past them.

Go watch the slo-mo clip on You-tube.

You'll see the shoulder turn causing the lead arm to straighten instead of the hands moving instantly with shoulder turn and accelerating forward.

Come back and tell me if you see it..........

Ok... I'm still a little confused... I'm sorry. I know how annoying it is to repeat things over and over, but I'm just not getting it. Sorry...

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Hamilton2.gif

I think I'm getting this now... look at the differences of where the bats is between the two pictures. Is that what your talking about?

Keep in mind the difference in pitch location.

I'm just trying to get onto the same page...

OK, why is Hamilton's barrel moving, while Cubsphill isn't... that's what your talking about right?

I also see a bit of bend in Hamilton, unlike cubsphill who is definately a barring.

[Go Cardinals]

I think I get this now, Delgado is doing it too right? Well they all do it, but can't you see it more in Delgado?

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Delgado1.gif

[BoardMember]

Conner, I don't care so much about the bat head movement into the arc. I care more about the hands moving instantly with the lead shoulder. The amount of lag from there varies. But the hands almost ALWAYS "go" with the lead shoulder, and tension keeps the flexion, whatever that amount is in a particular hitter.

This can only be accomplished with the proper amount of tension in the lead arm being maintained into launch.

Watch:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2d12t0x.gif

Ok... I'm still a little confused... I'm sorry. I know how annoying it is to repeat things over and over, but I'm just not getting it. Sorry...

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Hamilton2.gif

I think I'm getting this now... look at the differences of where the bats is between the two pictures. Is that what your talking about?

Keep in mind the difference in pitch location.

I'm just trying to get onto the same page...

OK, why is Hamilton's barrel moving, while Cubsphill isn't... that's what your talking about right?

I also see a bit of bend in Hamilton, unlike cubsphill who is definately a barring.

[BoardMember]

Yes, Delgato maintains some amount of tension in the lead arm at launch to prevent "barring". That connection with some tension moves the hands instantly with the lead shoulder.

I think I get this now, Delgado is doing it too right? Well they all do it, but can't you see it more in Delgado?

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Delgado1.gif

[BoardMember]

Yes, Delgato maintains some amount of tension in the lead arm at launch to prevent "barring". That connection with some tension moves the hands instantly with the lead shoulder.

Bottom line is CubPhill needs to maintain some tension in the lead arm to maintain some amount of flexion until release from the shoulders. Even on the outside location.........

[BoardMember]

By the way, your swing would benefit from this also........

Watch this, and ignore the slide. Just watch Cabrera maintain tension in the lead arm so his hand move instantly with the lead shoulder when compared to yours. You shoulders show 1 click of movement without the hands moving at all because you lack that tension in the lead arm at launch:

http://i30.tinypic.com/2z89c1l.gif

This is what I call "slack" in the swing.........

Yes, Delgato maintains some amount of tension in the lead arm at launch to prevent "barring". That connection with some tension moves the hands instantly with the lead shoulder.

[BoardMember]

See if you can see the "slack" in the first 2 frames, because you lack tension in the lead arm at launch.

http://i26.tinypic.com/e7ggm0.gif

[Go Cardinals]

Yes... I understand this tension. That would help prevent barring. All you need is tension, then you won't bar... what about drag?

Also, the thing I said before about hiding the hands and loading, when you do this, it creates more tension in the front arm.

[BoardMember]

Time for bed. We'll get into the drag area tomorrow.......

Yes... I understand this tension. That would help prevent barring. All you need is tension, then you won't bar... what about drag?

Also, the thing I said before about hiding the hands and loading, when you do this, it creates more tension in the front arm.

[MSandman]

:) I'm interested in your thoughts on how to eliminate bat drag. Thanks.

[Swing Coach]

...in how you all would eliminate bat drag....from the beginning.

My 9-year-old had bat drag last summer and we have had about 4 sessions in the living room with a heavy bag. I start off having him use top hand with a mini bat, watching closely that his hand and shoulder rotate together and that his elbow does not "beat" his hand. When he hits ths bag, I think he is feeling that proper "hand snap" into contact that he never felt when he was dragging. We then progressed with two hands and a wiffel ball bat and the same drill, making him understand that the hands rotate with the shoulder. Having him put his back elbow up just before the swing seems to reinforce the drill and that separation seems to give him added power into the bag. I don't even want him to hit balls until he has had several hundred dry swings into the bag so it becomes natural to him. That may take a while since he lasts only about five minutes a session...but that's okay with me. I figure I have to break it down to fix it. Am I on the right track here??

SC

[callyjr]

Do you feel this is a good swing?

For a .200 hitter its a great swing. Isn't that what he hit last year. My poor dodgers signed him to a lot of money too, he better change back to the old days.

[callyjr]

...in how you all would eliminate bat drag....from the beginning.

My 9-year-old had bat drag last summer and we have had about 4 sessions in the living room with a heavy bag. I start off having him use top hand with a mini bat, watching closely that his hand and shoulder rotate together and that his elbow does not "beat" his hand. When he hits ths bag, I think he is feeling that proper "hand snap" into contact that he never felt when he was dragging.

SC

Hand snap into contact? Are you suggesting he is doing something with his hands at contact?

I don't think your gonna fix bat drag with hand snap. Bat drag is mostly due to a poor front arm.

[Go Cardinals]

What is Hamilton doing? Look at his shoulders, after contact they seem to not rotate. Anyone else see that? When I see him swing, I don't see the shoulders doing much rotating. Am I on to something here? Or do I need to wake up better?

http://i32.tinypic.com/2d12t0x.gif
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Hamilton2.gif

[Go Cardinals]

BM, I found a great clip... he has that tension... he does so many things to stop the bar and drag... great clip...

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds7.gif

BM, there must be another way to prevent drag and bar... Rolen seems to do something different... there isn't as much tension.
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Rolen1.gif

This guy's arm starts out the same way... so theres less tension... correct? How does he not bar and drag?

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Dunn1.gif

I'm still not on the same page as you...

[ShawnB]

You guys need to seriously rethink everything you "think" you know.

The reason there is bat drag is because is hands/arms go dead as he initiates the swing. He isn't taking care of the barrel the entire time.

Arm barr, what ever. The front arm isn't as important as what is happening with the back arm as the swing begins. In a ML swing there is connection between the arm and body, scapula complex, from the very beginning. A ML hitter has a very active torso, an ability that no one posted on the internet has or is even close. I've seen a few, one for sure posted many years ago.

[Go Cardinals]

Very active torso?

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Bonds7.gif

http://i32.tinypic.com/2d12t0x.gif

[CoachB25]

Go Cardinals,

You don't see these shoulders rotating?


http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Hamilton2.gif

Contacts?

[Go Cardinals]

Go Cardinals,

You don't see these shoulders rotating?


http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Hamilton2.gif

Contacts?

I don't see them rotating... I see doing something differently. Am I on to something here?

Yes they rotate, but it looks like the reason for rotating is not hamilton consciously rotating the shoulders, but because of the back arm... and the hands.

[Go Cardinals]

Ok BM, this has to be a bar... it looks just like cp:

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/Durham2.gif

[BoardMember]

Sorry, I lost my internet in the storm. I'm using a dial up and not worth post stuff right now. But I'll give you this for now........

Conner, I'm not sure what the heck you are looking at.

No Tension?

Straight, Barred Arm?

Not Hardly. Look again:

http://i27.tinypic.com/15q3pew.gif

Ok BM, this has to be a bar... it looks just like cp:

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/Durham2.gif

[JeffK 29]

What is Hamilton doing? Look at his shoulders, after contact they seem to not rotate. Anyone else see that? When I see him swing, I don't see the shoulders doing much rotating. Am I on to something here? Or do I need to wake up better?

http://i32.tinypic.com/2d12t0x.gif
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Hamilton2.gif

I see it. His shoulders rotate very little between frame before and after POC. If you look at POC his rear arm has completely extended. This, to me, seems to be the case when I see the shoulders stop rotating in most cases. In this case I think the pitch was either down or away and/or he was fooled which caused him to extend out for it...stopping shoulder rotation

[BoardMember]

Mr. Shawn, I haven't even begun to discuss the drag issue and your already telling me I better re-think what I think I know?........:choke:

Drag is caused by a mis-sequencing of the upper body.

Eliminating drag is simply making sure that the shoulders are moving the hands before slot is completed, and preferably within one frame of slotting.

Infact, I'd say the shoulders better be turning (with the hands connected) by the first frame of slotting..........

The elbow can't get ahead of the hands if the hands are moving with the shoulders before slotting is complete.

By the time the elbow is fully slotted, the hands should be turning the corner (via shoulder turn) ahead of the rear elbow.

One form of making sure the shoulders start turning before the elbow is slotted is to raise the rear elbow into toe-touch so the shoulders begin turning before the elbow is past one frame of slot.

There are the guys that show the most separation. There are guys who don't "raise" the rear elbow, but I can guarantee you their shoulders are going before the elbow gets half-way slotted (tucked) in the sequence........

BTW, some amount of tension in the lead arm keeps the hands moving with the front shoulder, instead of being left behind.........

FYI, keeping the top hand locked at the shoulder doesn't stop the rear elbow from passing the top hand.......IF the shoulders are late......

Now, what did you want to tell me about drag? Sorry, I forgot already............

You guys need to seriously rethink everything you "think" you know.

The reason there is bat drag is because is hands/arms go dead as he initiates the swing. He isn't taking care of the barrel the entire time.

Arm barr, what ever. The front arm isn't as important as what is happening with the back arm as the swing begins. In a ML swing there is connection between the arm and body, scapula complex, from the very beginning. A ML hitter has a very active torso, an ability that no one posted on the internet has or is even close. I've seen a few, one for sure posted many years ago.

[BoardMember]

I see it. His shoulders rotate very little between frame before and after POC. If you look at POC his rear arm has completely extended. This, to me, seems to be the case when I see the shoulders stop rotating in most cases. In this case I think the pitch was either down or away and/or he was fooled which caused him to extend out for it...stopping shoulder rotation

I think you'll see everyone's shoulders slow or stop as soon as the bottom hand arm extends to contact.

Just like a balerina's spin slows when the arc is widened via the arms extending.

Early extension (when fooled, or on an outside pitch for example) causes a quicker decelleration.

Staying tight (inside for example) slows less decelleration....

http://i30.tinypic.com/1znyhqo.gif

That isn't magic.........

[JeffK 29]

I think you'll see everyone's shoulders slow or stop as soon as the bottom hand arm extends to contact.

Just like a balerina's spin slows when the arc is widened via the arms extending.

Early extension (when fooled, or on an outside pitch for example) causes a quicker decelleration.

Staying tight (inside for example) slows less decelleration....

That isn't magic.........


Agree, not magic.

[JeffK 29]

Mr. Shawn, I haven't even begun to discuss the drag issue and your already telling me I better re-think what I think I know?........:choke:

Drag is caused by a mis-sequencing of the upper body.

Eliminating drag is simply making sure that the shoulders are moving the hands before slot is completed, and preferably within one frame of slotting.

Infact, I'd say the shoulders better be turning (with the hands connected) by the first frame of slotting..........

The elbow can't get ahead of the hands if the hands are moving with the shoulders before slotting is complete.

By the time the elbow is fully slotted, the hands should be turning the corner (via shoulder turn) ahead of the rear elbow.

One form of making sure the shoulders start turning before the elbow is slotted is to raise the rear elbow into toe-touch so the shoulders begin turning before the elbow is past one frame of slot.

There are the guys that show the most separation. There are guys who don't "raise" the rear elbow, but I can guarantee you their shoulders are going before the elbow gets half-way slotted (tucked) in the sequence........

BTW, some amount of tension in the lead arm keeps the hands moving with the front shoulder, instead of being left behind.........

FYI, keeping the top hand locked at the shoulder doesn't stop the rear elbow from passing the top hand.......IF the shoulders are late......

Now, what did you want to tell me about drag? Sorry, I forgot already............

Thanks BM. Learned allot today.

-Jeff

[Go Cardinals]

Mr. Shawn, I haven't even begun to discuss the drag issue and your already telling me I better re-think what I think I know?........:choke:

Drag is caused by a mis-sequencing of the upper body.

Eliminating drag is simply making sure that the shoulders are moving the hands before slot is completed, and preferably within one frame of slotting.


After reading this first part, even I am confused... what would you tell lets say a 10 year old to do if they had bat drag? you stated why it happens, what do you say to do to fix it?

[BoardMember]

Conner, I'm an advocate of raising the rear elbow during the stride. This move allows the shoulders to start turning as the elbow begins it's drop.

Drag is virtually eliminated using this move......

After reading this first part, even I am confused... what would you tell lets say a 10 year old to do if they had bat drag? you stated why it happens, what do you say to do to fix it?

[Go Cardinals]

Conner, I'm an advocate of raising the rear elbow during the stride. This move allows the shoulders to start turning as the elbow begins it's drop.

Drag is virtually eliminated using this move......

That makes sense...

What do you think about throwing side arm and hitting stuff? You can see a side arm throw in this, watch the left arm:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2d12t0x.gif

[BoardMember]

You can see a side arm throw in this, watch the left arm:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2d12t0x.gif

NO. I see a sidearm PUSH (if he was throwing).......The elbow isn't leading enough to create snap and velocity. LOOK CLOSER.........

Throwing sidearm is the SINGLE WORST CUE I've ever heard, just like "skipping rocks" from Candrea.

Talk about a recipe for drag..........

Side-armers lay out the forearm backwards and lead with the elbow.......:eek:

[ssarge]

Throwing sidearm is the SINGLE WORST CUE I've ever heard, just like "skipping rocks" from Candrea.

B/M:

"Single worst cue" encompasses a lot of territory. And like Mark_H says: "Any given cue on any given day is a good one if it engenders the desired behavior from the hitter." But I agree that this is probably going to be a bad cue. Don Slaught (the voice behind Candrea's comments on RVP) defends it pretty strongly. But I don't think this cue is accurate at all. And I think it is especially dangerous in that Candrea doesn't - at least on RVP - point out that the hands should remain proximate to and on-plane with the shoulders. When most people skip a rock, those things DON'T happen - the rear forearm gets flat VERY early and fast - faster than is typically seen in a swing. Most people don;t rotate their torso much when skipping a rock, either, so that is confusing. And that rear forearm flattening too early in the swing WILL potentially lead to bat drag. If the hands stay on plane with the rear shoulder - and proximate to it - there probably won't be drag even if the rear elbow gets ahead of the hands. Probably manageble if the instructor understands the concerns. But there is no mention of the potential concerns in the RVP instruiction.


But that said, I'm not even sure it is the worst cue on RVP. "Keying rotation" with the rear elbow is worse, IMO. Since it seems obvious that the best hitters begin hip / torso rotation INTO foot plant, and before the elbow comes down.


I am certain Megs / FiveFrame will disagree, and hopefully he'll do so here and present his reasoning. But I don't see it, and I don't think either of these cues is very helpful for the typical young hitter. And may be outright harmful.

Regards,

Scott